Did Lord Shojo let Azure City fall?

[Teddy]

Why would they resurrect Shojo if the only thing they would do with him is throwing him in jail at the spot. It could be because he's still the ruler until proven guilty, but it still seems like a waste of resources to resurrect him for the sole purpose to have him go through a trial.

But on the other hand, I'm pretty sure Shojo believed that that was exactly the reasons why to resurrect him, so I'm not really blaming him for refusing.

[David Argall]

Why resurrect Shojo?

"He's my uncle." Hinjo doesn't need more reason.

[hamishspence]

"He was murdered- and this is a Wrong that needs to be Righted" is a reason.

[spargel]

Well, there's probably still many questions Hinjo would like to ask him.

[Sewblon]

Shojo wasn't just murdered, he was murdered by his highest ranking paladin. Like Belkar said he was going to die in a few years anyway and they wear going to put him in jail. Maybe Shojo just figured that Hinjo would be equally effective at rallying the city now that members of his own government new that he was a criminal and one of them saw fit to summarily execute him.

[Raging Gene Ray]

Originally Posted by Sewblon

Maybe Shojo just figured that Hinjo would be equally effective at rallying the city now that members of his own government knew that he was a criminal and one of them saw fit to summarily execute him.

That is a good point. Shojo lived most of his life in paranoia that led him to involve Miko in a convoluted scheme when a simple job offer would have worked. He probably saw death as a sweet relief from the constant fear that came with a life as the rule of a city filled with power struggles.

He did, underneath all the neuroses, want the best for his city however, so he probably saw Hinjo's competence as a justification and is able to look back and regret not being ressed and at least TRYING to get Hinjo to put the house arrest off for the time being and rally the nobles.

[warrl]

Originally Posted by Mugen Nightgale

"Is Shojo's death morally justified?"

Two words for you. "Chaotic Good"

By the way, in 4E there's no such thing. All Lawful are Lawful Good, and all Chaotic are Chaotic Evil.

(It's also impossible to be dedicated to the balance - the True Neutral of the 1st-edition Druid doesn't exist. There is "Unaligned", which is basically "don't care". So effectively half of all alignments are gone. But they didn't change the alignment system, they just augmented its inherent weaknesses and limitations with a few gaping holes.)

[hamishspence]

You can be dedicated to "the wild" though (Melora).

And druids still exist.

And 4E Good is almost indistinguishable from 3.5 CG.

Unaligned means you can be anything you want, as long as you are not behaving in a seriously evil (or good) fashion.

And "dedicated to the balance" as interpreted in 2nd ed True Neutral, gave TN characters "Chronic Backstabbing Disorder."

Most people who speak of it seem very pleased it's gone.

That said, this isn't a 4E thread, but a OoTS (3.5) thread.

You can always put up a thead on "why removing TN was a bad thing" over on the roleplayeing games part of the board, if you like.

[Kish]

Originally Posted by factotum

Further evidence: he didn't remove the Mark of Justice from Belkar prior to the battle, despite the fact that effectively neutered one of his more powerful allies.

If Hinjo had removed the Mark of Justice from Belkar prior to the battle, Belkar would have had no reason to stop the assassin from killing Hinjo and Hinjo would be dead now. If you want to criticize Hinjo's actions toward the prisoners, criticize him letting any of them out. (Yes, including Belkar.)

[Bago!!!]

In summary, yes. Lord Shojo was a leading factor in Azure City's loss to the forces of evil.

Interesting....

Azure City lost that big battle for a lot of reasons. The watchtowers failed their purpose, the catapults were destroyed by Julio, the walls were breached by elementals, the high leveled paladins were tied up defending a throne, and there also happened to be some hobgoblins and an epic lich riding a dragon.

True, true, also true...

But the battle could have been won. Resources that could have turned the tide were lost forever, and that is entirely Lord Shojo's fault for being dead.

Any battle could be won if applied properly. The only difference are the chances of such success. As it stands, they weren't particularly too grand (though it almost worked! Redcloak and Xykon almost died!)

No, it's not his fault for dying. Miko absolutely killed him dead, and while he could have maybe parlayed with Roy with the door closed, we can't blame Shojo for not surviving Miko. But then the clerics were called. Diamonds were produced and the spell was cast. And Lord Shojo was not resurrected. Lord Shojo was close to dying a real death anyways. But dying minutes after hearing that his city was going to be attacked, he had a moral responsibility to return to his city and oversee its preparations for war. And he did not.

I disagree over here. Its true that he was not resurrected. Its true that he did answer the call. But that doesn't mean he had a moral responsibility. Would it have been nice? Maybe, but I doubt that there was much that he could have done.

Hinjo was left in charge, distrusted by the nobles and a good portion of the people. How much time was wasted telling the population that its beloved leader had been killed for good under circumstances they could not know? How much time was spent making the nobles sit and listen to Hinjo? Far too much, when an army of 30,000 hobgoblins is 24 hours away.

As if Shojo could have retaken the throne or assumed any sort of command. The most he could have supplied was war advice or political advice. The former I doubt he has much experiance (but he could, he is pretty old so may have lived through some wars) and the later he could have given, even from beyond the grave if asked. (Speak with the Dead! FTW?)

Then the nobles sailed away. Shojo probably knew they would. He had to fake senility in order to avoid being assassinated. How would Hinjo get them to obey him in just a day's time, under mysterious circumstances? As these nobles sailed away, they took hundreds, maybe a few thousand, personal guards and servants, and then some civilians loyal to them. Civilians that might have been encouraged to pick up a sword if their noble was staying. These extra men would have certainly helped.

Kobuto was probably the most influential noble and probably controlled most of the strings with them. He would of tried to take the throne one way or the other. If Shojo was jailed, one way or the other, he was not going to get the throne back. Kobuto was gonna try to take the throne and either kill Shojo (if he didn't stop pretending to be senile) or get rid of Hinjo under the pretenses. And you know what? Most of the nobles would have supported this. Rather to have Kubota to take the throne than a paladin. The former can be bargained with. The later, not so much.
My point is, even if Shojo was alive, there was nothing that could have changed with the nobles.

And then at least a few of these nobles would probably have high level wizards to advise them. Remember V's contribution to the battle? V was almost the only reason the breach was held, at least until the entire army charged it. What if there were 3 Vs on the battlefield? Five? Ten? V was the only decently leveled spellcaster in the battle besides Sangwan that we saw. A bundle more would have turned the tide.

If the nobles were given enough incentives to do so (which they probably wouldn't have) to risk their d4 hit die mages. Doing so seems unlikely. Even the chance of it happening, I admit, would have needed Shojo's advice, which he could have gained if he truly desired it.
The point here is, the mages will only make a difference (as well the soldiers in general) if the nobles had something to gain from it. And keeping the status quo isn't a real incentive to do things. THey would be looking for favors or wealth or power or elevation or what not.

And then these nobles had armies of ninjas at their disposal. What if these ninjas were used to take out the leaders of the hobgoblins? Redcloak wouldn't have ordered the army to storm the breach with a sword in his back. The general could have been taken out too, leaving the hobgoblins leaderless.

If the nobles were given enough incentive you to do this you mean.

These nobles and their valuable resources were lost because Shojo wasn't there to convince them to stay. Some of them at the very least would have stayed if they had a leader they had confidence in, instead of a paladin that gained power for reasons he couldn't explain. The troops themselves point this out.

Most of them would have stayed if they felt they could have turned this to an advantage for them.

Of course, there is one event that would have probably occurred with or without Shojo's presence. Xykon would have still killed Roy, and he would have probably still made it to the throne room. There, the same fight would occur. And then Lord Shojo would probably be in some kind of safe room with paladins defending him.

I doubt that would have happened but who knows. Thats kinda hard to prove or disprove.

In the battle of the throne room, every last paladin counted. With one or two less, Redcloak would have helped Xykon take on Soon, and they might not have been defeated by him. However, if there were enough noble-sponsored wizards on the field, Xykon might have been held up by some and burned some of his more powerful spells, making him more likely to be defeated before Redcloak arrives, and heck, Redcloak might not even had made it to the room if he was stopped by the ninja, meaning he wouldn't have been there to turn the ghost martyrs and help Xykon.

Mages in that would have gone rather quickly. Why? Xykon is immune to fire damage, cold damage, and lightning damage. And most of those mages would have died rather quickly to fire balls or lightning bolts of death coming from an epic level sorcerer, or insane paladins rampaging around like crazy.
And Xykon was hardly doing any damage to the ghosts. And since Xykon is a sorcerer, its not like he's gonna run out of spells rather quickly.
Point is, the defense of the throne room would have probably gone the same way.

Lord Shojo's cowardice was a leading factor in the fall of Azure City. Because he was scared of Hinjo's reaction, and because he was, according to Belkar, having a good time in the afterlife, his beloved city fell. Lord Shojo's refusal to return lost time to prepare, valuable resources and men the nobles could have provided, and drained troop moral.

Thats assuming that the nobles would have helped out.

The troops were fighting for a paladin they didn't entirely trust, especially when they couldn't know how he gained power over them. Lord Shojo's final words (besides that snark to Miko) were "Everything I did, I did for my people." No, not everyone.

Shojo may have been stretching the last bit but I am sure that every action he had was heavily weighed by his consience.

One thing he did helped to cause the deaths of ten thousand soldiers and helped to cause the survivors to sail on a fleet in exile for almost a year. Lord Shojo hid from his duties as ruler, and possibly because of it, his city was destroyed.

The moment that his senality was revealed, he was no longer the ruler. He was a old man sitting on the throne caught in his web of lies. He didn't hide. He just couldn't have helped.


In short, Shojo couldn't have been of any help.

[factotum]

Originally Posted by Kish

If Hinjo had removed the Mark of Justice from Belkar prior to the battle, Belkar would have had no reason to stop the assassin from killing Hinjo and Hinjo would be dead now.

So you're basically telling me that Hinjo could see into the future and knew Belkar would betray him, so that's why he kept the Mark on? Then he was even more of an idiot for letting him out, wasn't he?

Simple fact is, Hinjo hit on the idea of letting the high level prisoners fight for the city, so he obviously wanted them to be effective otherwise there's no point in releasing them at all--it is thus still a boneheaded move to NOT remove the Mark from Belkar immediately, regardless of what happened subsequently.

[Kish]

Originally Posted by factotum

So you're basically telling me that Hinjo could see into the future and knew Belkar would betray him, so that's why he kept the Mark on?

No. On the other hand, Belkar wasn't "neutered" as soon as he left the city. And no one onstage ever suggested to him that he shouldn't have left the city.

Then he was even more of an idiot for letting him out, wasn't he?

Yes.

Simple fact is, Hinjo hit on the idea of letting the high level prisoners fight for the city, so he obviously wanted them to be effective otherwise there's no point in releasing them at all--it is thus still a boneheaded move to NOT remove the Mark from Belkar immediately, regardless of what happened subsequently.

Meh. If Hinjo had actually directed Belkar to the front lines (outside the city, where the Mark didn't restrain him at all), I'd disagree with your conclusion completely. As it is, keeping a Marked Belkar inside the city was certainly...bizarre. How Hinjo seems to view Belkar makes very little sense to me on any level.

[hamishspence]

one of the advantages of combining Marked Belkar with him being inside the city- he can attack undead (zombies, ghouls, etc) without problems, but he can't attack the soldiers or Hinjo.

On the other hand- he can still "Not Help" at critical moments- luckily, he chose not to do that when Hinjo was in danger.

[tomandtish]

Actually, don't forget that it is possible that Shojo wanted to return and couldn't. The guidelines for Raise Dead (carried over to Resurrection) indicate that the soul must be free AND want to return. Many DMs (myself included) have always interpreted the first part to also mean that whatever power has jurisdiction over soul can make the call whether to allow it to return.

Case in point: Durkon is killed and the party locates another priest to Raise him. In order for him to be successfully raised, Durkon must want to be raised AND Thor (or Hel or however Rich has it work in his specific version of the mythos) must be willing to allow him to be raised.

In short, without knowing where Shojo's soul is or who has jurisdiction over it, his willingness or lack thereof to be raised may not be the deciding factor. (I suspect Belkar's explanation is probably correct, but there is certainly room to say that it's not Shojo's fault he didn't return).

[Gametime]

I think it's worth noting that whatever advantages Shojo being alive might have given the city in defending itself against hobgoblins, Xykon could probably have taken the entire city by himself if he was willing to take several days to do so.

The entirety of the Sapphire Guard (minus two) couldn't even touch him, and the OOTS isn't too great with ranged combat. Xykon could massacre hundreds of troops a day with an Overland Flight spell, and not a single person would be able to significantly threaten him or prevent him from retreating. The only thing that would present any difficulty would be the throne room, but Shojo being alive or dead had nothing to do with that.

So, no, Shojo didn't let Azure City fall, since absolutely nothing within his power could have made a difference. Stopping the hobgoblins wouldn't have saved the city.

[DBJack]

Originally Posted by tomandtish

Actually, don't forget that it is possible that Shojo wanted to return and couldn't. The guidelines for Raise Dead (carried over to Resurrection) indicate that the soul must be free AND want to return. Many DMs (myself included) have always interpreted the first part to also mean that whatever power has jurisdiction over soul can make the call whether to allow it to return.

Shojo's religion is governed by 12 gods. Each one seems to have a different allignment (Rat seems to be more evilish, Dragon is Lawful Neutral (You can't help your clerics in the south because of my rules even if it means the deaths of my people) so it isn't unreasonable to assume that wherever Shojo, went, one of his gods is helping to govern the afterlife. All twelve gods were present to strip Miko of her powers when she struck down Shojo, so I think they would've helped him out if he wanted to go back to his kingdom

[marcelopvf]

Everything could be different if Shojo was ressurected and stood on the throne. But THAT is the problem: if Hinjo let that happen, then he wouldn't be different from his uncle, doing what is NOT right for the good of people.

But I have to agree: even though he was in jail, Shojo could give good advice to Hinjo. =/

Now I have the feeling that the city could somehow be saved. =(

[derfenrirwolv]

Given what we now know of xykons actual level, Azure city was doomed from the start. The gate may have held, but the nobles personal guards wouldn't have been able to hold against the hobgoblin hoards once the walls fell.

[Bago!!!]

Originally Posted by marcelopvf

Everything could be different if Shojo was ressurected and stood on the throne. But THAT is the problem: if Hinjo let that happen, then he wouldn't be different from his uncle, doing what is NOT right for the good of people.

But I have to agree: even though he was in jail, Shojo could give good advice to Hinjo. =/

Now I have the feeling that the city could somehow be saved. =(

Advice on what exactly?

And you do realize that he could have given advice from beyond the grave right? They got spells for that.

[Bibliomancer]

Originally Posted by derfenrirwolv

Given what we now know of xykons actual level, Azure city was doomed from the start. The gate may have held, but the nobles personal guards wouldn't have been able to hold against the hobgoblin hoards once the walls fell.

Not so. Assuming Shojo managed to maneuver the nobles into staying (by, say, accidentally ordering all the ships to go fishing for 2 weeks and sealing the outer wall), the extra troops could have sealed the breach. For that matter, one of the nobles probably had a court wizard who knew Wall of Stone (5th level wizard spell), thus closing the hole in the defenses. Without that, Redcloak would not have been able to help Xykon, and Soon would have killed Xykon and come looking for Redcloak.

For that matter, Shojo might have trapped Miko behind an inescapable forcecage/cube of walls of force before the battle, thus preventing the castle from exploding.

However, Shojo was told/advised by the eladrins not to come back because if Xykon fell the comic would end the IFCC would have been able to take over the gates at their leisure after the Order disbanded.

Shojo had to sacrifice part of his city's population to save the world (including all of the city). A logical decision.

[Bago!!!]

Assuming he knew that of course.

But I still stand by what I said before, even if Shojo was risen back, there is no way the nobles would aid in the defense of the city. Not with Hinjo on the throne.

[spargel]

Originally Posted by Bibliomancer

However, Shojo was told/advised by the eladrins not to come back because if Xykon fell the comic would end the IFCC would have been able to take over the gates at their leisure after the Order disbanded.

Shojo had to sacrifice part of his city's population to save the world (including all of the city). A logical decision.

I'm not even going to try to guess on how you came to this conclusion.

[DBJack]

Originally Posted by Bago!!!

Assuming he knew that of course.

But I still stand by what I said before, even if Shojo was risen back, there is no way the nobles would aid in the defense of the city. Not with Hinjo on the throne.

Hinjo said something like 'let's let the magistrate sort this out and figure this all out later.' The magistrates would have probably chosen to let Shojo lead the defense of the city and have a trial later. And also, what was Shojo guilty of that he could be arrested for? Hiring adventurers to do secret dirty work in the name of the state? Pretending to be senile so he wouldn't be killed? It's not like letting him rule the city until the invasion is stopped would be more dangerous than letting someone with no experience in real leadership take control of half a million civillians.



And the IFCC, Biblio? If Roy's deva didn't give him the heads up about them, Shojo probably wouldn't have been told it in the ten minutes he was in the afterlife

[spargel]

Originally Posted by DBJack

Hinjo said something like 'let's let the magistrate sort this out and figure this all out later.' The magistrates would have probably chosen to let Shojo lead the defense of the city and have a trial later. And also, what was Shojo guilty of that he could be arrested for? Hiring adventurers to do secret dirty work in the name of the state? Pretending to be senile so he wouldn't be killed? It's not like letting him rule the city until the invasion is stopped would be more dangerous than letting someone with no experience in real leadership take control of half a million civillians.

Everyone except a few people thought Shojo was insane for most of the time. And then he was revealed to be a deceiver who ended up putting the city in a horrible situation, even without dying. Why would the magistrates choose him? I doubt he even has the kind of leadership that would help in that battle, considering that he was pretending to be insane the entire time.

By the way, he'd be arrested for faking the trial and corruption (Letting Belkar go, even if it's with an MoJ).

[Acero]

short answer: NO

long answer: NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

[derfenrirwolv]

Not so. Assuming Shojo managed to maneuver the nobles into staying (by, say, accidentally ordering all the ships to go fishing for 2 weeks and sealing the outer wall), the extra troops could have sealed the breach. For that matter, one of the nobles probably had a court wizard who knew Wall of Stone (5th level wizard spell)

And thus a 9th level caster. That rates well above a nobles guard. SHojos own personal wizard was probably about that, and he didn't have a back up, indicating that wizards that level are fairly rare.

thus closing the hole in the defenses. Without that, Redcloak would not have been able to help Xykon, and Soon would have killed Xykon and come looking for Redcloak.

We saw redcloak use.. 2? Spells to get into the walls. He's standing back in reserve watching for his opening. It doesn't matter how many 5th level fighters you pack into the breach, another titanium elemental followed by a trampling elephant is going to reopen it.

[Lvl45DM!]

look if youre in a battle which yould bolster your confidence? a senile old man hiding in his castle or on the boats?
or a young black katana wielding evil smiting wolf riding paladin?
and shojo controlling the nobles into fighting? this is the man who fakes senility to avoid ninjas?
Azure city was doomed even if xykon and RC had died the 20000 remaining hobbos wouldve destroyed it

[factotum]

Originally Posted by DBJack

Hinjo said something like 'let's let the magistrate sort this out and figure this all out later.' The magistrates would have probably chosen to let Shojo lead the defense of the city and have a trial later.

I don't think they would have been given the option. Hinjo would have been far too busy with preparations for the defence of the city to worry about starting up a trial--Shojo would have been in the jail, and since he was only an Aristocrat (and a venerable one at that) he wouldn't have been much use in the fight, so he wouldn't have been part of Hinjo's work-release program.

[Larkspur]

A) I think it's very unlikely that Shojo had the power to keep the nobles in the city. If people did what he wanted, he wouldn't have needed to spend the past decade pretending to be senile.
B) Even if he had, I don't see how Kubato could have prevented Redcloak from blasting through that breach. Redcloak took out the head Azurite cleric in like five minutes, why would Kubato's pet wizard fare any better?

Honestly, the only useful thing Shojo could accomplish by being alive would be to distract fellow jailbird Miko from running into the throne room before Soon finished off Xykon and Redcloak.