Why did the Queen of Unaroyal destroy herself?

Winterwind · 10-15-2009, 12:56 PM

In the latest Summer Update (#43), the queen of Unaroyal chooses to rather destroy herself and thus make her entire side vanish, rather than have them be defeated and Decrypted by Wanda's forces. Okay, sure, not wanting to reinforce the enemy makes perfect sense.

But why did she do it this way, rather than simply running with however many units she could take, and (presumably) going barbarian when the capital city fell, saving as many of her troops as she could afford in the process, having the rest disband to not-payed upkeep? The way she chose seemed a bit... drastic to me. Was it the sorrow over losing her daughter, fear for a future with something as horrible as Decryption around, or am I just misunderstanding something about how Erfworld works?

Jackson · 10-15-2009, 01:11 PM

I doubt she had any faith in surviving, either by making a last stand or by running. And she had seen what happened to people Wanda got her hands on. So she chose the only option that allowed her and her army to escape being decrypted, guaranteed.

Plus I just think it's customary to have a noble or royal character choose suicide when the evil army is overrunning the nation/world.

Kyouhen · 10-15-2009, 01:27 PM

Running would have been a good plan, but how far could she run? What happens if Wanda sends fliers after her? The Decrypted are steamrolling all of Erf, sooner or later they'll catch her.

Winterwind · 10-15-2009, 01:48 PM

Well, I meant she could have tried to escape to the Coalition forces - Jetstone, for instance. She doesn't seem to think all hope is lost yet - she implores Don King after all to defeat Wanda and end this scourge for her.

Though I guess maybe she didn't see any way to make it to the Jetstone border before being caught by Wanda's forces... and yes, a royal character choosing suicide is a classic motif.

multilis · 10-15-2009, 02:21 PM

I assume that Stanley's mounts (dragons) had a higher move than any of her mounts. This may be part because of terrain, in many games it costs fliers less movement than horses to cross some terrains.

She might have been able to flee if she retreated several turns earlier. But earlier she thought she could weaken the enemy by a last stand. Now she realised the last stand would only make them stronger.

Killer Angel · 10-16-2009, 02:34 AM

Maybe she valued that was too late to retreat. The troops around unaroyal were ready for the next-day fight (I suppose that the two armies were deployed in adiacent or very near hexes, waiting only the next day's turn), so probably joining the Coalition forces at Jetstone was no more an option, and the uncoming fight would have given only more decrypted units to Wanda.

Revlid · 10-16-2009, 04:59 AM

Either it was too late for that to be done, or it was just out of sorrow over having to destroy her daughter.

KBF · 10-16-2009, 05:00 AM

...You know, in context, I thought she couldn't live with the guilt of having killed her daughter.

Maybe I was missing something. But it seemed pretty obvious when I first read it.

ObadiahtheSlim · 10-16-2009, 08:03 AM

Escape was probably impossible. Dwagons and Archons have high move. She probably would have just been run down and then decrypted. Plus who knows if she would get to keep her Ruler bonus in undeath. Better to deny their enemy her resources.

Plus she probably considered it a mercy for her remaining forces to disband when her side ended than to die and be decrypted.

Oslecamo · 10-16-2009, 08:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winterwind

Well, I meant she could have tried to escape to the Coalition forces - Jetstone, for instance. She doesn't seem to think all hope is lost yet - she implores Don King after all to defeat Wanda and end this scourge for her.

Though I guess maybe she didn't see any way to make it to the Jetstone border before being caught by Wanda's forces... and yes, a royal character choosing suicide is a classic motif.

It's quite simple actually. In Efworld you cannot exit a city hex if it isn't your turn.

Wanda wouldn't be so idiotic to reveal her secret powers if there was a chance the Unaroyal forces could run for it. So she waits untill it's Gobwin's Knob turn, then goes and makes the proposition of Join us or die and join us anyway. The Queen of Unaroyal can't run anymore as she'll be stoped by invisible barrier of gaming.

It's a nice plan and stuff, offer a cornered enemy the chance of surrender. That's probably why she risked revealing her secrets. Your last stand will do nothing to weaken us, so join our side!

What Wanda didn't expect was that the queen of Unaroyal would rather kill herself and disband all her troops rather than surrendering to Gobwin Knob.

ObadiahtheSlim · 10-16-2009, 09:04 AM

It was Unaroyal's turn. The parlay was during the end of Gobwin Knob's turn. Then on Unaroyal's turn the Queen promoted all the garrison units to full dispatched them outside the city and finally disbanded/croaked herself. She couldn't have done that on GK's turn.

Iago · 10-16-2009, 11:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ObadiahtheSlim

It was Unaroyal's turn. The parlay was during the end of Gobwin Knob's turn. Then on Unaroyal's turn the Queen promoted all the garrison units to full dispatched them outside the city and finally disbanded/croaked herself. She couldn't have done that on GK's turn.

Furthermore, as noted here:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0006.html

The Queen had to deplete the treasury beforehand, or it would be captured along with the city.

And as noted here:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0110.html

Field units disband/disappear, but city Garrison forces freeze in time, and are thus susceptible to capture (along with any other resources belonging to the city). Thus, by first depleting the treasury and then using it to deplete the Garrison, the Queen double-denied GW's side.

Name_Here · 10-16-2009, 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iago

Furthermore, as noted here:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0006.html

The Queen had to deplete the treasury beforehand, or it would be captured along with the city.

And as noted here:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0110.html

Field units disband/disappear, but city Garrison forces freeze in time, and are thus susceptible to capture (along with any other resources belonging to the city). Thus, by first depleting the treasury and then using it to deplete the Garrison, the Queen double-denied GW's side.

Awesome Catch. I thought she had sent the troops out so they could link up with Jetstone but now it makes perfect sense.

Myrmex · 10-16-2009, 02:36 PM

I thought it had a lot to do with the Queen's sense of ownership over her subjects- better they server her and perish than come back as abominations.

Oslecamo · 10-16-2009, 02:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ObadiahtheSlim

It was Unaroyal's turn. The parlay was during the end of Gobwin Knob's turn. Then on Unaroyal's turn the Queen promoted all the garrison units to full dispatched them outside the city and finally disbanded/croaked herself. She couldn't have done that on GK's turn.

Well then Wanda is more idiotic than I tought. What the hell was she thinking when she decided to give the queen a chance to screw with her plans?

Wanda's really becoming a villain. She even bables out her secret weak points so her oponents can exploit them.

Slayn82 · 10-16-2009, 03:30 PM

By allowing her enemies to know it, she can manipulate them. Shatter their morale is a good reason to expose herself. And look, by talking they even got the Chief Warlord of the enemy. It was probably an win-win scenario. And also, there is Ansom's beliefs. He may be Decripified, but he is still the same Ansom at core.

And then the Queen took a third option.

Ben · 10-19-2009, 02:44 PM

It was Unaroyal's turn during the Parley. Note how Rob carefully said that the Unaroyal forces leapt across the hex boundary to re-croak the princess.
Then the Queen saw what was going to happen, promoted her troops, sent them outside, sent her casters off, wrote her letter, and killed herself.

Wanda wasn't being James-Bond-Villain-level stupid; she was hoping to take the city without a fight (because she can't de-crypt her troops again). She didn't think of the possibility that the queen would be so upset at seeing her daughter de-crypted that she'd react that way... but that's consistent with her character.

And who knows, maybe this is that one thing Parson advised against and they did anyway...

multilis · 10-19-2009, 05:22 PM

Wanda did a "join us or die" gamble/experiment, she lost. If she had won, she would be stonger as uniroyal troops would have 2 lives and compared to a fight, she wouldn't lose any decrypted.

Update #40, Jetstone made the same sort of gamble and won.

Overall the fight is still reasonably close (the royal side if gathered into one huge army could win according to Ansom), so gambling can help.

Both sides have intel gap, for all Wanda knew, the other side might already know about decrypting and the queen not being under thinkomancy compulsions may turn to save her life. (Just as others didn't know capabillities of GK's original caster linkup, she doesn't know other sides abillities)

It turned out that the queen valued the royal side or hated the decrypted side more than her sides lives.

Darth Spoon · 10-19-2009, 06:16 PM

Just as others didn't know capabillities of GK's original caster linkup, she doesn't know other sides abillities

The comic never states that the other sides knew about the thinkamancer/lookamancer/foolamancer linkup, just that they knew gobwin knob had a foolamancer. But I agree with the idea behind your post. After all, Jetstone has basically figured out what's going on, Charlie has too, and he's told Faq about it. Knowing Jillian, she may have already told Transylvito, and who knows where it went from there?

Demented · 10-19-2009, 06:51 PM

Most of these last stand cities tend to be in terrain that makes it difficult to assail on foot. Transylvito is utterly inaccessible. Faq is in a remote mountain pass. Gobwin's Knob is on a volcano. Charlescomm is apparently near the top of the world. However, it also makes it difficult to flee on foot, if not impossible during a siege. (And what do Barbarians do, anyway?)

Where does it say that Unaroyal wasn't a helm's deep? One way in, one way out.

Edwin · 10-25-2009, 02:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Demented

Most of these last stand cities tend to be in terrain that makes it difficult to assail on foot. Transylvito is utterly inaccessible. Faq is in a remote mountain pass. Gobwin's Knob is on a volcano. Charlescomm is apparently near the top of the world. However, it also makes it difficult to flee on foot, if not impossible during a siege. (And what do Barbarians do, anyway?)

Where does it say that Unaroyal wasn't a helm's deep? One way in, one way out.

Except, technically, Helm's Deep had more than one way out. Remember, the tunnel on the back side?

Oslecamo · 10-25-2009, 04:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben

And who knows, maybe this is that one thing Parson advised against and they did anyway...

I'm pretty sure it was the thing Parson advised against, since we didn't have any other reports of major fail moments for Gobwin Knob.

Well, at least that'll teach Wanda that Parson, if not the perfect warlord, is still a damn good warlord, and when gives advice, you better take it seriously.

That mathmancy thingy is made of pure awesome. Even whitout the artifact sword, Parson still holds a major tactical advantage against everybody in Efworld thanks to it.

But even the best leaders will fall if their subordinates repeatly do stupid stuff. I really hope Wanda has learned her lesson from the queen's suicide.

fangthane · 10-26-2009, 11:20 AM

I think Rob missed a good bet by not giving Queen Bea a rhymemancer named Maynard, but I guess references to her "having the thickness" would probably have hit a fairly small target audience.

All I could think about while I was reading that update* was geeky pawns with mirror-shades rocking out on a chess board. Is that wrong?

As to why she did it, she did it for the same basic reason as it's happened any number of times in history. Scorched/salted earth is worth less than arable land, and knowing nothing she could do would weaken the oncoming force so much as abdication and disbanding, she did her best to deny resources to her enemy.

It's not always a good idea, but against a threat like Wanda, which has overwhelming force and where it can be assumed that any forces left out will be mopped by high-speed dragon sorties, with any forces left in the city destroyed by the Glom, scorched earth (or rather, scorched Erf) makes sense.

*what can I say, her name has a soundtrack. For me, at least.

Lysander · 10-27-2009, 09:24 AM

Wanda was right outside the city and her army was faster. If the Queen ran they probably would have caught her the next turn. Rather than die and become magical slaves the Queen decided to destroy herself and the remainder of her army. Can't fault her logic there.

ObadiahtheSlim · 10-27-2009, 09:31 AM

Also if she couldn't get all her troops to follow her. By ending her side like she did, you denied the enemy her entire garrison. The only units they got were her chief warlord and the others who killed her daughter. I'd say that was probably a fair trade since her daughter was a royal and would have very high stats.

SteveMB · 10-28-2009, 11:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slayn82

And also, there is Ansom's beliefs. He may be Decripified, but he is still the same Ansom at core.

Yep -- his conversation with Parson at the end of Book 1 shows that he believes Decryption to be "a higher expression" of the Titans' will, and he's every bit as self-assured about it as he was about his earlier belief in the Royal mandate to rule.

Wanda describes herself as "loyal to Fate magic" -- it's possible that she is at least entertaining the possibility that Ansom's new ideology (he was the first Decrypted, after all) is an expression of what Fate has chosen for her and for Erfworld generally.

Quote:

Originally Posted by multilis

It turned out that the queen valued the royal side or hated the decrypted side more than her sides lives.

I'd guess it was "hated the decrypted side" for turning her daughter into an abomination and forcing her to send a strike force to put her down.