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So my Guide to Melee Combat is getting more and more complete. But a big piece that I'm missing is probably one of the more requested pieces of optimization advice - Power Attack. So I thought I'd start a thread on the subject.
Advice on Optimizing Power Attack:
1) Power Attack usually doesn't "kick in" until ECL 6ish. Between ECL 1-5, the To-Hit penalty usually doesn't justify the 2-10 point damage increase that you get in return compared to other combos that are available to you. So if you know that your campaign is going to end at low levels, look elsewhere.
2) Unless you have full BAB, Power Attack is probably not an efficient choice for you. There are plenty of ways to get a high damage output that don't involve Power Attack. And there are plenty of other combos (see the link above). Power Attack may be the most popular choice for melee builds, but it is not always the best.
3) You are usually better off using Power Attack with a two handed weapon, as opposed to Two Weapon Fighting. This is primarily because Two Weapon Fighting requires a heavy feat investment (which could otherwise be used to directly improve your Power Attack other ways) and requires a high Dexterity (which is nice if you have it, but a melee build is generally better off putting it's highest stat into Strength, since it improves damage and doesn't require Weapon Finesse to improve your To-Hit). If you're wedded to TWF for other reasons, be sure to pick up Oversized Two Weapon Fighting (Complete Warrior) or Improved Unarmed Strike (PHB, weaker option, unless your build also focuses on improving unarmed damage) so that you can apply Power Attack to every attack.
4) Be mindful of the To-Hit penalty. If you're not careful, you'll often whiff more then you hit. Check out any Power Attack Calculator, and get used to guessing your enemy's AC (by keeping track of what rolls hit or miss against them) so that you can figure out the best penalty to take for your attacks each round. At higher levels, you can solve this problem by taking Shock Trooper (shifting the penalty to AC, more on this later), by getting access to Touch Attacks (Flame Blade, Fire Lash, Wraithstrike, Spectral Weapon, Bloodstorm Blade + Master Thrower), by denying your enemy their Dexterity bonus (just read any Rogue thread), and/or various other bonuses (Tome of Battle, Incarnum, psionics, Greater Magic Weapon, Knowledge Devotion, flanking, etc).
5) You need Pounce or Free Movement. This is true of most melee builds. But it's worth mentioning here because it's essentially a "hidden" cost to making a build that relies on Power Attack. If you don't have Pounce or something like it, you're screwing yourself out of a Full Attack some rounds, and drastically reducing your potential damage output.
6) Shock Trooper (Complete Warrior) is a great feat. It shifts the To-Hit penalty of Power Attack to your AC, and gives you some useful Bull Rush manuevers. However, it requires Improved Bull Rush as a pre-req, can only be used on Charge attacks, and makes you an easy target. So if you choose to use it, I highly suggest picking up a Bull Rush related combo to make the pre-req useful, get Pounce, and get a vapiric healing/Karmic Strike (King of Smack) and/or battlefield control combo to defend against counter attacks and/or Miss Chance (Cloak of Displacement, Blur, etc).
7) Damage from Power Attack can be greatly increased via:
Leap Attack: Increases Power Attack ration on Charge if you can make an easy Jump check. Can't be combined with mounted Charge. Complete Adventurer.
Lance: Multiplies damage on Charge from a mount. Remember that you can use it two handed, or with Oversized Two Weapon Fighting and Pounce. Also a reach weapon, which is pretty much a requirement for many melee builds. PHB.
Spirited Charge: Multiplies damage on Charge from a mount. PHB.
Riding Boots: Unnamed bonus to Ride, and if you have Spirited Charge you further multiply your damage when you Charge. DMGII pg 270.
Centaur: Multiplies damage on a Charge as a racial ability. Use Polymorph or something similar. Monster Manual.
Headlong Rush: Multiplies damage on any Charge, but provokes an attack of opportunity from everyone who threatens you (including your target). This can be avoided with a reach weapon. Or it can be used to your advantage with a King of Smack Karmic Strike/Vampiric Claws combo. Player's Guide to Faerun.
Rhino's Rush (Pal 2): Immediate Action spell. Multiplies damage on a Charge. If necessary, make a Wand, and put it in a Wand Chamber (Dungeonscape pg 34). Spell Compendium.
Battle Jump: Multiplies damage on a Charge if you drop from at least 10 feet above your enemy - which can be done with a moderately high Jump check, or by attacking from higher ground. Unapproachable East.
Valorous weapon enhancement: Multiplies damage on a Charge. Unapproachable East.
Frenzied Berserker: Gets a higher Power Attack multiplier, but comes with a lot of potential issues (like killing all of your party members). Complete Warrior.
Anything with a good critical hit range or multiplier. Given the existence of the Scabbard of Keen Edges, I personally never bother with the Keen enhancement or wasting a feat on Improved Critical when there are so many other better options for feats. But this is debatable. PHB/DMG.
Most things that add extra attacks will also greatly increase your damage output when combined with Power Attack (including natural attacks).
Dragonborn (wings option) or Raptorian with 12 HD or more can fly, and make a diving charge attack with a piercing weapon that deals double damage.
8) Don't over do it. Seriously. There are plenty of ways to get thousands of points of damage per round. But the Tarrasque only has 858 hit points. Pushing your damage output up to absurd levels just forces the DM to make the encounters more difficult. And if the other players in your party are not optimized to a similar degree, you could end up constantly stealing the spotlight in combat and making the game less fun for everyone. Exactly how good your damage should be depends on your gaming group, so there is no "right" answer about how high your damage should be. Just be mature about how you choose to optimize.
Stone Power triggers feats that key off of your Power Attack penalty. It also works well with Cobalt Power (which normally isn't very good for normal Power Attack).
Frenzied Beserker improves on power attack. Theres also Leap Attack, which just plain rocks. Those are about the only two feats and PrC that I can think of that even deal with Power Attack directly that wern't mentioned.
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Is the "round 2" Combat Brute (complete warrior) worthy to be pointed out? I see that the damage output of a pouncing shock trooper leapattacker could not allow round 2, but synergize well, IMHO, with Shock trooper and Improved Bull Rush.
I mean, if you want a very "musclular" meleer maybe you want both be good at bull rush (dungeoncrasher and so on) and power attack, and Advancing Blows, one of the maneuvers of Combat brute, is anyway a Power Attack improver.
EDIT: even if I've seen you placed CB in your main melee guide anyway
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Spoiler
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurald Galain
The rogue isn't really using charisma in melee, the rogue is applying Ability Score #6 to his Type-One attacks.
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Originally Posted by ken-do-nim
DMing is how you turn D&D from a game into a hobby.
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Originally Posted by Maroon
Players can see a story where there isn't one.
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Originally Posted by Eldariel
For 4.0? I expect them to whine to the DM until he makes the big bad boogeyman go away.
Last edited by Kaiyanwang : 10-21-2009 at 11:04 AM.
I honestly don't like Scabbards of Keen Edges, b/c they require a standard action to activate, leading to Power Up Dance Syndrome. Increasing your crit range isn't worth potentially missing a charge that could end combat before it starts.
At least the Blessed Scabbard is a swift action activate...
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Rule of Cool Contributor and Goon
I honestly don't like Scabbards of Keen Edges, b/c they require a standard action to activate, leading to Power Up Dance Syndrome. Increasing your crit range isn't worth potentially missing a charge that could end combat before it starts.
At least the Blessed Scabbard is a swift action activate...
Heh, great minds think alike. I generally have this viewpoint in most games, and in Pokemon I greatly favor moves that at least do a little damage while also slightly raising your stats. D&D could use one or two of those.
Heh, great minds think alike. I generally have this viewpoint in most games, and in Pokemon I greatly favor moves that at least do a little damage while also slightly raising your stats. D&D could use one or two of those.
I prefer dubuff+small damage (Like the one that kills accuracy and deals damage, not the sand one, the mud one)
I prefer dubuff+small damage (Like the one that kills accuracy and deals damage, not the sand one, the mud one)
Spoilered because its off-topic.
Spoiler
You mean Mud Slap and Mud Shot, respectively. On a personal level, I don't like using attacks that don't deal damage. Most of my mons have pure-offensive move pools. There's a few exceptions (Wobbuffet!) and the occasional Contest mon.
A side note: I hate Rock Smash! Why does one of the most commonly needed HMs have such a weak damage? Why couldn't it be more like Brick Break?
You mean Mud Slap and Mud Shot, respectively. On a personal level, I don't like using attacks that don't deal damage. Most of my mons have pure-offensive move pools. There's a few exceptions (Wobbuffet!) and the occasional Contest mon.
A side note: I hate Rock Smash! Why does one of the most commonly needed HMs have such a weak damage? Why couldn't it be more like Brick Break?
Psh. A Swords-Dance'd Lucario can decimate. As can Dragon-Dance'd a-whole-lot-of-other-things.
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Originally Posted by sonofzeal
Lower levels arcane spells are usually a drag, but lower level psionic powers are often just higher ones waiting to be augmented.
Psh. A Swords-Dance'd Lucario can decimate. As can Dragon-Dance'd a-whole-lot-of-other-things.
I know that. Swords Dance is one of my Zangoose's primary attacks (he's all ready got maxed EVs and IVs in Attack). I never sad I don't use them at all, I just prefer Sweeping to Buffing.
1) Power Attack usually doesn't "kick in" until ECL 6ish. Between ECL 1-5, the To-Hit penalty usually doesn't justify the 2-10 point damage increase that you get in return compared to other combos that are available to you. So if you know that your campaign is going to end at low levels, look elsewhere.
2) Unless you have full BAB, Power Attack is probably not an efficient choice for you. There are plenty of ways to get a high damage output that don't involve Power Attack. And there are plenty of other combos (see the link above). Power Attack may be the most popular choice for melee builds, but it is not always the best.
Good work from you as always. I point all my melee players to your melee guide now.
1) Your statement about power attack being counterproductive at low levels is very true, but I'd recommend adding the caveat "without a means of making melee touch attacks or optimizing attack bonus". Some of the methods you identified in your later paragraphs can drive hit bonus high enough and enemy AC low enough to make power attack a mathematically beneficial option even at lower levels.
2) To clarify on this still further, actual base attack bonus is less important than total to-hit bonus and availability of special tricks in determining the viability of power attack. A level 12 character with a +9 base attack, a total +22 hit bonus is in a better position to use power attack than a level 12 character with a +12 base attack and a total +20 hit bonus. Likewise, special tricks like the ability to make melee touch attacks or the shock trooper feat can render to-hit vs. AC calculations irrelevant, although I would agree that the full base-attack character can exploit shock trooper for more damage.
If you like shock-trooper, then find a way to become Large, or just be a Goliath and take Knockback. Charge. Power Attack for full. Knock enemy back 20 ft or something. Next turn, you charge again!
Heh, great minds think alike. I generally have this viewpoint in most games, and in Pokemon I greatly favor moves that at least do a little damage while also slightly raising your stats. D&D could use one or two of those.
Nice to know I'm considered a great mind.
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Rule of Cool Contributor and Goon
Good work from you as always. I point all my melee players to your melee guide now.
1) Your statement about power attack being counterproductive at low levels is very true, but I'd recommend adding the caveat "without a means of making melee touch attacks or optimizing attack bonus". Some of the methods you identified in your later paragraphs can drive hit bonus high enough and enemy AC low enough to make power attack a mathematically beneficial option even at lower levels.
2) To clarify on this still further, actual base attack bonus is less important than total to-hit bonus and availability of special tricks in determining the viability of power attack. A level 12 character with a +9 base attack, a total +22 hit bonus is in a better position to use power attack than a level 12 character with a +12 base attack and a total +20 hit bonus. Likewise, special tricks like the ability to make melee touch attacks or the shock trooper feat can render to-hit vs. AC calculations irrelevant, although I would agree that the full base-attack character can exploit shock trooper for more damage.
It also depends: There are low-level encounters with lots of HP and inexistent AC, for example the Dire Wolf (and animals in general), along with poorly equipped Humanoids & Monstrous Humanoids (with suboptimal armor).
It's on average only ~2 points of extra damage or so for a level 3 Raging Human Barbarian or Orc Fighter, but if you happen to have Power Attack, it's worth it. It's also worth noting that with a single attack, it's much more reasonable a gamble to Power Attack when you need the extra damage since you only need one good roll to make it pay off.
Also, some low-level ToB maneuvers with attack bonus like Rabid Wolf Strike, and stuff like Improved Trip, really makes PA pay off. By yeah, especially animals have low ACs so PA is very key vs. them.
I honestly don't like Scabbards of Keen Edges, b/c they require a standard action to activate, leading to Power Up Dance Syndrome. Increasing your crit range isn't worth potentially missing a charge that could end combat before it starts.
At least the Blessed Scabbard is a swift action activate...
QFT. It also works a limited number of times per day, and is expensive enough that it won't make it into my low-level characters' inventories anyway.
Worst of all, it doesn't stack with the aforementioned Blessed Scabbard. Or the Bless Weapon spell, for Paladin characters.
Most builds that really wants to focus on crits are better off with Improved Critical than with a Keen weapon or Scabbard of Keen, IMHO.
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My current build is very efficient with power attack. My favorite trick is to pick up 1 level of sorcerer, and learn true strike(Its only verbal, so your armour doesn't interfere). The +20 bonus can be channeled into your power attack up to the full limit of your BaB, and deal massive damage. At lower levels, it also gives you a huge accuracy bonus, so you will hit. At higher levels, you don't need the extra accuracy on your first hit.
If you take the metamagic specialist sorcerer variant, you are allowed to use quicken. Take quick draw, a lesser quicken rod, and you can quickdraw the quicken rod, quicken a true strike, and attack.
The battle sorcerer variant can make you sacrifice a known 1st-level spell(which leaves you only knowing power attack + cantrips), and you can some hp(2 per sorcerer level, which takes some of the sting out of its low hit dice) and gives you a free weapon focus.
Now you go into cavalier, and get the x4 (and eventually x5) damage on a charge. Use your lance 2-handed, and get the most out of your strength/power attack bonus's. Also use a colliding lance, for the +5 (which gets multiplied), and the impacting enchantment(3/day make a touch attack with a peircing weapon). Throw on lucky in case you roll a 1, a +5 for the raw damage.
Take a pegasus mount, and buff its speed as much as you can.
Realize that great cleave will work great on this, and be sure to include it.
Net effect: A character that can, in a single round, cast true strike, charge 1280 feet, activate collision, throw his full BaB into a power attack, and hit for several hundred damage, then proceed to cleave into everyone within reach of your lance. At level 18, you can easily do 300 damage per hit.
Granted, you can only do this 3 times per day.
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[3.X] Optimizing Power Attack
