This is more of a curiosity than anything else, but since the Giant has the comic trademarked, can we legally write fictional stories about the Order, the Linear Guild, Xykon and co, etc.?
I'm not talking about paragraph blurbs, plot theories, or whatever people do over at the Crack Pairing Threads (which I have only dared to read the banners for).
I mean, if I were to create "Therkla's Diary" or "The Adventures of Elan before the Order" and post it on my home site, would I be hit with a Cease and Desist?
I figure it's better to ask for (general) permission than forgiveness.
I apologize if this has been asked before, but I looked over most of the Giant's posts on Copyright infringement, and it's primarily about grabbing and altering the comic images (which I have no intention of doing).
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Technically, fanfiction in general is illegal. Any copyright holder has the right to try to wipe fanfiction of their stuff off the Internet (check out Anne Rice for people who go overboard), but most people figure that fanfiction is just as harmless as fanart so they don't bother with the legality of it. Considering the fact that the Giant hasn't tried getting rid of the Crack Pairings thread or the OotS section in fanfiction.net, as long as you make sure everyone knows that the OotS doesn't belong to you, you're fine.
I think getting rid of it would require LOOKING at it, and the giant (like anyone with pretenses to sanity) is justifiably concerned about the mental damage that would be inflicted from just LOOKING at that thread.
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Although the thread title does specify "non-comic", I think that this section of the Fan Comic Guidelines may still be pertinent.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Forum Staff
Use of The Order of the Stick Characters, Places, and Other Trademarks
Generally speaking, you are not permitted to make fan comics that tell the stories of any of the characters of The Order of the Stick or feature any of the places that exist in the comic, such as Azure City. These names and likenesses are trademarked by Giant in the Playground and cannot be used without specific permission. There are a few situations where it may be deemed acceptable:
A cameo appearance, defined now as an appearance that is confined to a single strip of the comic series, done for humor or contrast. Essentially, this constitutes a parody of sorts, and as such is considered Fair Use. Note that the character should not have any meaningful influence on the plot, and the event should not be referenced repeatedly in future comics. For example, it’s OK for your characters to stop and ask Durkon for directions to the nearest tavern in one panel and then never mention it again. It is not OK for Durkon to give them their sacred quest to fulfill Thor’s prophecy--which will comprise several dozen strips of story--even if Durkon’s entire appearance is limited to one strip.
Similarly, place names can be mentioned briefly, in passing, but your characters may not go there and spend 100 strips exploring the surroundings. They can say that the dungeon is 15 miles north of Cliffport in one panel, but they cannot go on a 10-strip shopping spree in the city first.
We ask that in any strip where an existing OOTS character appears, you include the following notice in the image file (usually along the bottom):
Quote:
<Character name>™ created by Rich Burlew, used under OOTS Fan Comic Guidelines.
That bit about not referring to a cameo event in future comics seems a bit hypocritical, given that Elan is still wearing an outfit that he put on in order to impersonate Locke Cole.
I do have to wonder what the reasons for these restrictions are. I mean, sure, he has the right to make whatever restrictions he wants, but "because I can" is not a reason.
Also - telling people what is or is not fair use is the business of those people's lawyers, not the person who created the original work. Fair use is a legal principle that is not defined by the original copyright holder. If this is intended as limited permission to use the characters in these ways without resorting to the fair use defense, it should not use the term "fair use".
Last edited by Random832 : 11-04-2009 at 01:42 PM.
The way copyright laws are going right now, they're doomed for extinction, anyway. O.o
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I think getting rid of it would require LOOKING at it, and the giant (like anyone with pretenses to sanity) is justifiably concerned about the mental damage that would be inflicted from just LOOKING at that thread.
We have had one moderator post on the thread. He rolled up a pairing, complimented the artists, and then made himself scarce.
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We have had one moderator post on the thread. He rolled up a pairing, complimented the artists, and then made himself scarce.
...And we're never ever going to let anyone on the forum live it down. :)
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First, thank you all for helping me with the answer to that. I am aware that Fan Fiction is illegal without permission from the author - and was looking for an official response on the subject. I had not seen that "Use of The Order of the Stick Characters, Places, and Other Trademarks" on the site or forum (I probably hadn't looked hard enough or didn't read carefully enough).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Random832
That bit about not referring to a cameo event in future comics seems a bit hypocritical, given that Elan is still wearing an outfit that he put on in order to impersonate Locke Cole.
I think there are a few little things that are being generalized here. First, wearing an outfit that is similar to a character from a video game wears is hardly using the intellectual property of the video game. Elan is not trying to impersonate Locke (except for the one comic with the other cameos), nor are they mentioning Locke or FF anymore. In the context of the example provided, it would be the same as asking Durkon for directions to a place, then going there and finding a lot of dwarfs who worship Thor (who is not copyrighted by anyone, being from Norse mythology). Certainly there is a connection, but it is very distinct from the "Durkon's Quest" example.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Random832
I do have to wonder what the reasons for these restrictions are. I mean, sure, he has the right to make whatever restrictions he wants, but "because I can" is not a reason.
From previous postings by the Giant on copyright and trademark (as I said, I read through many), he wants to be sure that he retains the sole owner of the characters, their images/likenesses, and the world they are in. I mean, who knows, he may want to create a Campaign world based around the OotS universe, and if someone does something like that before him (without him protecting his rights), he can't. Also, based on his posts in the past, "because I can" is a perfectly legitimate reason, since it the decision of a person, and personal decisions, no matter what they are, do not have to be justified.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Random832
Also - telling people what is or is not fair use is the business of those people's lawyers, not the person who created the original work. Fair use is a legal principle that is not defined by the original copyright holder. If this is intended as limited permission to use the characters in these ways without resorting to the fair use defense, it should not use the term "fair use".
I'm fairly certain the statement was acknowledgment of practice that falls under fair use, rather than a statement trying to restrict fair use of his stuff. Since the legal principle is spelled out clearly, I imagine the Giant probably took the time to read and understand it, and then, for consistency and thoroughness, include a clear statement clarifying what his copyright and trademark rights do NOT restrict, and what is/is not considered "parody" under fair use.
However, if something he said contradicts the legal definition of fair use, I would suggest contacting him.
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Last edited by ChrisFortyTwo : 11-04-2009 at 02:26 PM.
I had not seen that "Use of The Order of the Stick Characters, Places, and Other Trademarks" on the site or forum (I probably hadn't looked hard enough or didn't read carefully enough).
It's mid-way down a sticky in the Fan Comics sub-forum. It's not even an actual "announcement" like the main Rules of Posting.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zanaril
We have had one moderator post on the thread. He rolled up a pairing, complimented the artists, and then made himself scarce.
Well, while Grey Watcher is officially a mod, I've not seen him do much actual moderating recently. The comments in this thread imply that only Alarra, Roland and Rawhide are currently active mods.
What I mean to say is don't take Grey's posts as official approval. Should the Giant himself step down and give you the thumbs up, you'd be set.
I do have to wonder what the reasons for these restrictions are. I mean, sure, he has the right to make whatever restrictions he wants, but "because I can" is not a reason.
Imagine if someone else wrote a comic about Elan's childhood. They make a great job of it - touching, entertaining, consistent with what we know of Elan, with cameo appearances by, let's say, Right-Eye and Eugene Greenhilt. It runs for 50 strips or so.
Now imagine we fans start to refer to it. "According to 'Elan's First Adventures', he got his first lute from a wandering leprechaun sprinting for the gents'." "But we know (ha ha!) Eugene was in Nowhere nine years ago." And so on. It takes a while, but unless the Giant actively speaks up, the line between canon and non-canon starts to get more than a little blurry. And suddenly it's no longer 'his' world - significant parts of it are effectively being created by other people.
To prevent that, the Giant would have to speak up - either here or in the strip itself - flatly contradicting or denouncing the other story. (Even if it was really good.) I'd guess he doesn't want to put himself in that position, and who can blame him?
Now imagine we fans start to refer to it. "According to 'Elan's First Adventures', he got his first lute from a wandering leprechaun sprinting for the gents'." "But we know (ha ha!) Eugene was in Nowhere nine years ago." And so on. It takes a while, but unless the Giant actively speaks up, the line between canon and non-canon starts to get more than a little blurry. And suddenly it's no longer 'his' world - significant parts of it are effectively being created by other people.
To prevent that, the Giant would have to speak up - either here or in the strip itself - flatly contradicting or denouncing the other story. (Even if it was really good.) I'd guess he doesn't want to put himself in that position, and who can blame him?
And what would the problem with that be?
No, seriously. In my experience, high quality fanworks can receive nearly canon-esque appreciation without any clashing with the original work. Harry Potter and the Year of Darkness comes to mind, along with various Firefly fanfics.
If people who read fanworks start confusing canon and fanon, that's their problem, not the Giant's. I imagine someone who reads fanworks in the first place already has some sort of acceptance of where the line between fanon and canon lies. Even if some part of fanon becomes hugely popular and Rich publishes something that contradicts it, what's bad about that? It doesn't mean we can't appreciate both canon and fanon for their respective merits.
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However, if something he said contradicts the legal definition of fair use, I would suggest contacting him.
It's quite plain to see how it contradicts the legal definition - there's for example no actual basis to say that something's not a parody if it's more than one strip. Novel-length parodies of e.g. LOTR (Bored of the Rings) exist.
As said above, the problem is a legal one. As I understand it, trademark holders are required to be seen taking action to defend their trademarks. If they are deemed to not be taking action to that effect (such as letting people use their trademarks casually or letting fan creations run free and unchecked), they can actually stand to lose the trademark.
What happens then? Then the trademark passes into the public domain and everybody and anybody who wants to can use it and profit from it (real-life examples: the Aspirin, the Escalator, the Yo-yo, and the Thermos were all once owned trademarks that were lost, and are now used by anybody who wants to).
In other words, that "high-quality fanfic" could then legally be published and sold as a book, for profit, under the OOTS name, by whoever wrote it. As could anything else. That would be something that one would want to avoid as the holder of a trademark :)
Again, this is just what I understood from hearing another, more forthcoming author (George R. R. Martin to be exact) speak about the topic of fanfic and why he asks people not to do it.
As said above, the problem is a legal one. As I understand it, trademark holders are required to be seen taking action to defend their trademarks. If they are deemed to not be taking action to that effect (such as letting people use their trademarks casually or letting fan creations run free and unchecked), they can actually stand to lose the trademark.
I'm not a lawyer, but wouldn't requiring people to sign an agreement saying they won't use it commercially satisfy this (since he's keeping control of it - everyone who's using it is doing so with his permission which is only given if they agree to certain terms)?
Having to control it is not the same thing as having to forbid people from using it. You can be permissive and still keep your trademark. (and once again as often happens in these discussions we've shifted from copyright issues to trademark issues without a clutch.)
...And we're never ever going to let anyone on the forum live it down. :)
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Roland St. Jude passed through, shut down two inappropriate threads, but didn't render a ruling on this one. The other two were clearly out of bounds, but this is one of those borderline areas where we need an official or at least semi-official statement.
But as a guess, the Crack Pairings thread has gone into its third edition, so it would seem, on the surface at least, that fan-fic isn't disallowed.
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That bit about not referring to a cameo event in future comics seems a bit hypocritical, given that Elan is still wearing an outfit that he put on in order to impersonate Locke Cole.
Not really. He was already wearing that outfit before he ran into the FF characters boarding their airship; all he did for his impersonation was run back to the costume shop for a wig and headband.
Not really. He was already wearing that outfit before he ran into the FF characters boarding their airship; all he did for his impersonation was run back to the costume shop for a wig and headband.
In-story, yes. From an outside perspective, though, the outfit was clearly chosen so the costume would come together two strips later.
Last edited by Random832 : 11-04-2009 at 11:12 PM.
Roland St. Jude passed through, shut down two inappropriate threads, but didn't render a ruling on this one. The other two were clearly out of bounds, but this is one of those borderline areas where we need an official or at least semi-official statement.
But as a guess, the Crack Pairings thread has gone into its third edition, so it would seem, on the surface at least, that fan-fic isn't disallowed.
Ah, but the CP is on the official OotS forums, not a 3rd party site. There's a big difference - namely, that any traffic those fics are generating is going straight to the Giant, and only the Giant.
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Would writing a story with different characters but set in the same universe fall under "fair use" or is it still a copywrite issue?
Because I know a vast quantity of Star Wars fanfiction does not actually include the characters of the movies / books except in passing ... and as far as I know, George Lucas has more-or-less said "have fun" with fan films.
Would the same apply to OotS or is that just Lucas being cool?
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Sheriff of Moddingham: As has been said before, please don't seek or give legal advice here.
Regarding Rich's intellectual property, you have his prior statements (which as you know are many and present a single theme: please don't.)
If you want to obtain Rich's permission, please PM him, but don't expect authorization or a reply. I suspect he is pitched legions of projects every day.
If you want to know what is legal, ask your lawyer.
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Last edited by Roland St. Jude : 11-06-2009 at 11:42 AM.
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OotS (non-comic) Fanfic Legal?
And what would the problem with that be?
