3.5 - bringing class power levels closer together

[Anonymouswizard]

Originally Posted by Thrice Dead Cat

The issue, though, is that, with spellpoints, wizard act like psions, but with a metric ton of more options. I am personally indifferent to save or dies. Nice to have, but I prefer more global-effecting save or loses, like sleep.

Can Ou point me to a high level version of sleep? I don't see the point of acribing it into your spellbook as it is of little use beond about 4th level.

And also, if you want to use spellpoints and nerf casters: 3.0 psionics had a good idea for this. Re arange the spells into six schools, and then have MAD casting. For example: abjuration (dex), conjuration (with evocation spells) (con), divination (wis), enchantment (with illusion spells) (cha), Necromancy (int), and transmutation (str). If you want them to all be mental attributes: abjuration is wis, conjuration is int, and transmutation is cha. However, tansmutation and abjuration are rough guesses.

Make all wizards specialize: abjurers, diviners, enchanters and necromancers lose one school, while conjurers and transmuters lose two.

However, it is entirely up to you. Do you want me to try and brew this MAD casting system, and the mage and preist classes.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Originally Posted by Anonymouswizard

Can Ou point me to a high level version of sleep? I don't see the point of acribing it into your spellbook as it is of little use beond about 4th level.

Deep Slumber, hits peeps up to 8 HD? I honestly don't remember, but, for their levels, sleep and color spray are wonderful. You just jump up when need be, using lower level slots for things like knock.

Originally Posted by Anonymouswizard

And also, if you want to use spellpoints and nerf casters: 3.0 psionics had a good idea for this. Re arange the spells into six schools, and then have MAD casting. For example: abjuration (dex), conjuration (with evocation spells) (con), divination (wis), enchantment (with illusion spells) (cha), Necromancy (int), and transmutation (str). If you want them to all be mental attributes: abjuration is wis, conjuration is int, and transmutation is cha. However, tansmutation and abjuration are rough guesses.

I would actively call this bad advice. So, Transmutation jumps up even more in power, as there are numerous spells that cause strength to skyrocket. 3.0 psionics MAD did not actually help balance it. It was just simultaneously brokenly powerful and brokenly weak at the same time. Just because it averages out to the same as a rogue or barbarian means jack when you're at the edges of the bellcurve.

[Anonymouswizard]

Originally Posted by Thrice Dead Cat

Deep Slumber, hits peeps up to 8 HD? I honestly don't remember, but, for their levels, sleep and color spray are wonderful. You just jump up when need be, using lower level slots for things like knock.

I would actively call this bad advice. So, Transmutation jumps up even more in power, as there are numerous spells that cause strength to skyrocket. 3.0 psionics MAD did not actually help balance it. It was just simultaneously brokenly powerful and brokenly weak at the same time. Just because it averages out to the same as a rogue or barbarian means jack when you're at the edges of the bellcurve.

Thanks for the suggestion. I acually like colour spray.

And also, I only sugessted the spell schools as examples. If you notice I try to nerf conjurers and transmuters slightly.

Also, If you are doing spell points, to me they remove the best part about being a specialist wizard.

[Lysander]

Here's what I suggest to balance things out:

Druid
Someone said something about limiting wild shape to a few forms. This is the way to go. Really, the idea of druids being "turn into anything" shapeshifters is actually way off flavor. What makes more sense is a person that has one or two animalistic forms that matches their personality which improve in power over levels. For example, a cunning and vicious druid that can take wolf form, then dire wolf form, then an elemental fire wolf.

Cleric
The solution here is simple. Don't let clerics cast buff spells on themselves. They're there to lead others on the path of righteousness, not do it themselves. Clerics will still be decent warriors and have attack spells to keep enemies at bay, but a fighter with Bull's Strength will outdo them in melee.

Wizard
As said earlier, make spells really rare. Getting a single new spell should be a quest objective. Don't allow them to research custom spells. Don't introduce spells that are overpowered or would disrupt your campaign like teleport. Let your players discuss which spells they would like with you though, and let their character find ways of tracking down a copy of it.

[Glimbur]

Originally Posted by Lysander

Wizard
As said earlier, make spells really rare. Getting a single new spell should be a quest objective. Don't allow them to research custom spells. Don't introduce spells that are overpowered or would disrupt your campaign like teleport. Let your players discuss which spells they would like with you though, and let their character find ways of tracking down a copy of it.

The problem with "all new spells are incredibly rare" is that it makes leveling up as a wizard not very useful. As I go from second to third level, it would be nice to be able to cast second level spells. If I have to ask the party to go on a quest so that I can, and until then I have to just cast meta-magic'd first level spells, then getting a new level of spells doesn't feel that useful.

Have you considered banning Wizards and only allowing Sorcerers whose spell lists you will carefully monitor? It's pretty much the same effect (controlling spell selection) but less harsh to players.

[Anonymouswizard]

Originally Posted by Glimbur

The problem with "all new spells are incredibly rare" is that it makes leveling up as a wizard not very useful. As I go from second to third level, it would be nice to be able to cast second level spells. If I have to ask the party to go on a quest so that I can, and until then I have to just cast meta-magic'd first level spells, then getting a new level of spells doesn't feel that useful.

Have you considered banning Wizards and only allowing Sorcerers whose spell lists you will carefully monitor? It's pretty much the same effect (controlling spell selection) but less harsh to players.

I bet people will priase you for WHAT I SUGESSTED LAST PAGE!

Okay, it wasn't the focus of the post, but it was around the SDC.

[Hyooz]

Originally Posted by Anonymouswizard

I bet people will priase you for WHAT I SUGESSTED LAST PAGE!

Okay, it wasn't the focus of the post, but it was around the SDC.

That is... not at all what you suggested.

If you are going spell points remove the wizard entirely, and nerf the sorcerer to wizard spell points.

That is what you suggested. Nothing like what Glimbur is suggesting.

[Anonymouswizard]

Sorry, I think I mentioned that somewhere. If not, I do believe that that was suggested.

[Anonymouswizard]

Originally Posted by Anonymouswizard

If you are going spell points remove the wizard entirely, and nerf the sorcerer to wizard spell points.

Acually I did say that, it was just a minor part of the post. I was referring to the remove the wizard bit, not the moniter the spell lists part of his post.

[Stompy]

Originally Posted by Lysander

Here's what I suggest to balance things out:

[...]

Wizard
As said earlier, make spells really rare. Getting a single new spell should be a quest objective. Don't allow them to research custom spells. Don't introduce spells that are overpowered or would disrupt your campaign like teleport. Let your players discuss which spells they would like with you though, and let their character find ways of tracking down a copy of it.

So, I have a question, how often do you want the wizard to get a spell (1/quest, 1/3 quests, 1/lvl...), and with the rare spells thing, what makes a wizard different then a sorcerer?

EDIT: Also, what's preventing the wizards from getting together to share/trade/buy spells off of each other? Or better yet, what if I could get spells from my organization "The worship center of insert arcana diety here"?

Although the idea of buying/trading spells does sound cool. :)

[lesser_minion]

Originally Posted by Stompy

EDIT: Also, what's preventing the wizards from getting together to share/trade/buy spells off of each other? Or better yet, what if I could get spells from my organization "The worship center of insert arcana diety here"?

Each spell is unique to the gift of one magic user - when you learn a spell, you actually invent a version of your own. Reading someone else's lab notes doesn't help you, because your magical gift may be completely different.

So you have to re-invent every spell you want.

And each spell comprises a selection of various sigils deliberately designed to break the mortal mind. In order to avoid going utterly insane, each and every wizard spends hours in preparation, building up psychic defences which only work for them against the horrors within their own mind.

[Latronis]

Originally Posted by lesser_minion

Each spell is unique to the gift of one magic user - when you learn a spell, you actually invent a version of your own. Reading someone else's lab notes doesn't help you, because your magical gift may be completely different.

So you have to re-invent every spell you want.

And each spell comprises a selection of various sigils deliberately designed to break the mortal mind. In order to avoid going utterly insane, each and every wizard spends hours in preparation, building up psychic defences which only work for them against the horrors within their own mind.

So in otherwords you want to remove the Wizarding from the Wizard.

[Ashtagon]

Originally Posted by lesser_minion

Each spell is unique to the gift of one magic user - when you learn a spell, you actually invent a version of your own. Reading someone else's lab notes doesn't help you, because your magical gift may be completely different.

So you have to re-invent every spell you want.

And each spell comprises a selection of various sigils deliberately designed to break the mortal mind. In order to avoid going utterly insane, each and every wizard spends hours in preparation, building up psychic defences which only work for them against the horrors within their own mind.

At this point, you have created something mechanically indistinguishable from the sorcerer.

[lesser_minion]

Originally Posted by Ashtagon

At this point, you have created something mechanically indistinguishable from the sorcerer.

Fluff. Is. Mutable. There is no reason for what I described not to be a wizard. Nor has it lost 'wizardry'.

Having each spell developed tailored solely to a particular wizard's magical gift? Not a problem. Assuming that absolutely anyone can become a wizard with no need for any sort of magical talent whatsoever? Fluff. Nightmare.

Wizards suck in any event.