Warhammer 40K Tactics IV - The Enemy of Your Enemy is Still Your Enemy.

[Psychotic]

Originally Posted by Kzickas

where does it say psychic powers need to be used at the start of your turn? I thought you did, but when I played today we couldn't find that it said so anywhere

It doesn't say it in the BRB, but in the Eldar codex under Psychic Powers it says that (unless otherwise specified), powers are used at the beginning of the movement phase.

[Tren]

Originally Posted by Kzickas

where does it say psychic powers need to be used at the start of your turn? I thought you did, but when I played today we couldn't find that it said so anywhere

Each codex's psychic powers section, or the the specific description of the power will tell you when each power needs to be used. As far as I know Eldar are the only army with a blanket "used at the start of the movement phase unless noted."

[Falgorn]

Quick question:
Would I be able to convert a Space Marines' Force into a Grey Knights force?

[Arcanoi]

With EXTREME difficulty and a lot of effort, it is probably possible.

[DranWork]

Yeah you could the only hard bit that i can see is the helm's of the grey knights are totaly different to the normal space marine. everything else can be done with halberds from either an empire kit from wh or made from scratch then you just need to get your hands on some storm bolters and your done. Not a lot of point in doing so tho as its going to cost the same or more then the actual cost of the models anyway.

[Lycan 01]

Hm. My little bro started reading the Codex, and it reignited his interest in his little Chaos Marine force. He's now plotting how to flesh out his army, which currently...

14 Chaos Marines
-Heavy Bolter
-Plasma Gun
-Icon of Khorne
+Aspiring Champion
-Plasma Pistol
-Power Fist

Chaos Marine Lord
-Mark of Khorne
-Plasma Pistol
-Power Sword

All told, its 480 Points, IIRC.

He's decided that his next purchase will be a squad of Khorne Berserkers. They've strong, well-priced, and will give him his second troops choice. Plus, it'll even the odds between his men and my Orks. And it'll buff him up to 750 points.

But what should he do after that? He wants Terminators, but the price for 5 Chaos Termies is way too rich for his blood right now. However, he likes the idea of teaming with me to get the Assault on Black Reach Kit for the Termies and the Dreadnaught, as well as the Marines. Plus, I get the Orks... Buuuut... I fear the conversions may be difficult, plust he equipment sub-par. I personally think his best bet would be another squad of Chaos Marines, which he could make into Chosen and deck 'em out with lots of special weapons. He could also get the Dedicated Transport for the Chaos Marines, whatever it's called...

So yeah, what would my bro's best bet after the Berserkers be? Save up his money for Termies? Get the AoBR kit with me and convert the Marine force? Or Chosen Marines?

As cool as more Orks from the AoBR kit would be, especially the Dethkoptas, I don't know if I want 20 more plain Slugga Boys and ill-equiped Nobs!

[Cheesegear]

Originally Posted by Happy Days Falgorn

Quick question:
Would I be able to convert a Space Marines' Force into a Grey Knights force?

Yes. Nemesis Force Weapons are available in Bitz on the main Mail Order website. I've converted a bunch of them using these bits, and the masses of Storm Bolters that I have and Green Stuff.

Parts I use;
One Space Marine (Assault Marines are best for dynamic legs and access to various Power Weapons and Fists and Shields), it's okay since you wont have many GKs, so, there's really no need to buy a whole tactical squad box - unless you want to. Assault Marines also come with outstretched arms. This ends up looking better.
Nemesis Force Weapons from the main Mail Order site.
Storm Bolters - I have lots. Cut the handles and do a little bit of 'hobbying' and you can get a usable one. Use Green Stuff to mold a 'plate' onto a Space Marine's wrist and glue the SB on top. If you have the outstretched 'Assault' arms, they end up looking like real GKs. Alternatively, Green Stuff two bolters together.

Use more green stuff to make cables/ammo feeds from the wrist to 'under' the pauldron or power pack.

Lots or purity seals.

Optional extras;
Dark Angels veteran backpacks. Again. I have lots.

Also, I have lots of Deathwatch pads from the Commander Box, being a 'local hero', my GW store gave me all the Deathwatch pads they had in the store Bitz Box (I then wrote an e-mail to somewhere saying how brilliant my store's customer service was). Deathwatch pads are not GK pads. But, they do still have the big =][= stamped on them.

And, finally, my own Green Stuff mold of the front plate to Mk8 'Errant' Power Armour cribbed from the Tactical Squad box. I've recently discovered how to make molds. It's amazing.

So, while I don't have Grey Knights...
All my models in the unit have Errant Armour and Deathwatch Pads and Dark Angels backpacks. This looks cool. My models also have real Nemesis Force Weapons and Storm Bolters on their wrists.

My models look cool. And have what the rules say they should have. These, are therefore, legit and touney-legal 'Count As' models. Even though they're painted yellow and white (for 1st Company) and have Imperial Fists insignia all over them. I call them the Auric Knights. GK Teleport Attack Squad is fifty times better than Vangaurd.

As for GK Terminators...Seriously...Just buy the box. GK Terminators look cool and rock the house as is. And, you really shouldn't need more than one box anyway.

[Lycan 01]

Cheesegear, have I told you yet that you're awesome?

[Cheesegear]

Originally Posted by Lycan 01

Cheesegear, have I told you yet that you're awesome?

Twice.

I'm going to put up a tutorial on how to make GKs out of Space Marines...Tomorrow. If I can get my camera working.

[Keris]

While you're on the topic of Grey Knights, how viable are they in 5th Edition? I've been toying with the idea of making a GK force for a while now, but I fear they'd be woefully behind the times.

Originally Posted by Cheesegear

I've recently discovered how to make molds. It's amazing.

I find it odd that GW expressly forbids casting, but encourages simple moulds. I recall a tutorial on making a purity seal stamp in a White Dwarf article, but anything more complex than that is apparently a no-go. Makes it rather inconvenient should you want a large number of only a couple of bitz. =S

[Mattarias, King.]

Hey guys, sorry for the slight interrupt, but has anyone seen this? http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2010/...s-listing.html

..If so, what does "MC" mean, in the necron thing? I'm still kinda fuzzy on the terminology.

[Keris]

Originally Posted by Mattarias, King

Hey guys, sorry for the slight interrupt, but has anyone seen this? http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2010/...s-listing.html

I've seen that reposted around, it's actually one of the reasons I'm thinking of picking up GKs. New GK Terminators, vehicles and concepts, we might finally see an update for them.

Originally Posted by Mattarias, King

..If so, what does "MC" mean, in the necron thing? I'm still kinda fuzzy on the terminology.

Monstrous Creature, perhaps? I'm not certain.

[Cheesegear]

Originally Posted by Keris Rain

While you're on the topic of Grey Knights, how viable are they in 5th Edition? I've been toying with the idea of making a GK force for a while now, but I fear they'd be woefully behind the times.

Sisters are 100% viable.

Bolter & Chainsword knows what's up.

Still...Grey Knights...Not so much. If only because a bare minimum (1 HQ, 2 Troops, no upgrades) 'pure' GK force doesn't have a whole lot of guys on the board in 500 point games. A Daemonhunter force without Inquisitorial Storm Troopers gets expensive. Both in currency and it points. Anyone who plays Deathwing or Wraithguard knows that the lists don't really work out in anything less than 1000 points.
(But honestly, ISQs with Grenade Launchers and a Thunder Hammer or Lightning Claws {reroll those strength 3 To Wound rolls } aren't that bad.)

Grey Knights also have a blatantly obvious lack of Dedicated Transports. So, not only are your GKs ridiculously expensive, but, they have to slog it taking shots from the enemy every turn (granted, they have more than a few defenses to 'not die' as easily as most things...Still). Unless you go all out on Land Raiders...But, even so, expensive, both in currency and in points.

IMHO, Grey Knights work best as allies. Grey Knight Teleport Attack Squads crap on Space Marine Assault Squads and Vanguard squads. Since they're forced Reserves, they're sometimes not as good as Assault Squads. But, are always better than Vanguard. I always take a squad in my tournament lists (0-1 Fast Attack choice).
Also, I think Teleport Homers says 'any Space Marine model' which may or may not include Grey Knights. Still, if you can convince your opponent to allow Teleport Homers to work for GKs...Scouts become that much better.

GK Terminators aren't that much better than regular Terminators. But, I always take a squad of GK Terminators in my Imperial Guard lists.

Originally Posted by Keris Rain

Monstrous Creature, perhaps? I'm not certain.

The staff in my local store tell rumours of a Necron Dreadnought that never got past the design stage because at the time they weren't making plastic models that big, and a metal Necron Dreadnought was too hard to cast...Or something.
With GW's improvement in plastics in the last two years, the staff believe that Necron Dreadnought will see the light of day sometime soon.

[Mattarias, King.]

Originally Posted by Keris Rain

Monstrous Creature, perhaps? I'm not certain.

Oh yeah.. ^^; Thanks. .. Scary thought though.

..And GKs ARE pretty cool. My friend might be getting into them, they're manly.

[Selrahc]

Still...Grey Knights...Not so much. If only because a bare minimum (1 HQ, 2 Troops, no upgrades) 'pure' GK force comes out at over 500 points.

No...

1 Brother Captain 61pts
4 Grey Knights and a Justicar 150pts
4 Grey Knights and a Justicar 150pts

361pts

Now you may have been under the impression that a retinue was required, in which case the core army would *still* clock up to just 499 points(remember as well that the retinue doesn't get the normal brother captain).

[Cheesegear]

Originally Posted by Selrahc

No...

1 Brother Captain 61pts
4 Grey Knights and a Justicar 150pts
4 Grey Knights and a Justicar 150pts

361pts

Only because I always take the Grand Master rather than the Brother Captain. to put him on par with other HQs. The Brother-Captain only has 1 wound.

So, that's 445...Where did I get the extra 55+ points from? I think maybe my base list did include a Psycannon in each squad for extra firepower when they slog it. Definitely my bad.

I'll fix my old post.

Still, for the *correct* list (with terrible HQ), you've only got 140 points left (in a 500 point game), probably boost the squads a bit, or spring for a Dreadnought. It's still not a whole lot.

[Selrahc]

Still, for the *correct* list (with terrible HQ), you've only got 140 points left (in a 500 point game), probably boost the squads a bit, or spring for a Dreadnought. It's still not a whole lot.

No. It really isn't. Grey Knights certainly aren't much good in low point lists.

The plethora of special rules can make them annoying though. They're likely to get rolled over by a rounded list, but the negation of long range weapons, the fearlessness of all the models and the high strength melee attacks can pretty effectively counter a lot of low point curveball lists(Someone with lots of pinning scouts, or multiple wraithlords, or lots of obliterators.) Still not recommended though.

[Cheesegear]

Originally Posted by Selrahc

Grey Knights certainly aren't much good in low point lists [...] not recommended.

Of course, if you can go from 0 to 1500-2000 points in a week, I heartily encourage playing GKs.

Now that I think about it, making Plastic Grey Knights is really expensive. I've just made mine out of bits that I have at home...If I was to buy all my bits new...

(In $AU)
Assault Marines; $44
Terminators (for Storm Bolters); $65
---
Or Tactical Squad (glue bolters together, don't look as good without 'Assault' arms); $50

Grey Knight Force Weapons (x5, from Mail Order); $20

Ew. Grey Knights box; $55.
...What the Hell am I doing!?

Yeah...Grey Knights are actually one of the cheapest armies to buy.

[hamishspence]

I wonder if plastic grey knights, storm troopers, and Sisters are in the works, along with a Codex Inquisition?

The notion seems interesting.

The Siege of Vraks 3 Inquisitor Lord (Hector Rex) appears to follow "updated Space Marine rules" rather than "un-updated Daemonhunters rules"- his Storm Shield grants a 3+ Invulnerable Save,

rather than a 4+ Invulnerable save against 1 opponent at a time, only, in close combat only.

[Trixie]

Originally Posted by evisiron

Firstly some context.

The original post was about Eldar psychic powers and whether they could be used in the movement phase.

{Snip}

Out of curiosity, where this was posted? I'd like to see reactions there, but Google claims this is first occurrence of this.

[Falgorn]

Despite my ungodly need to be different, various recommendations have said that Space Marines or Tau are the ways I should go.

On the topic of Space Marines....
My mother, sweet woman, bought me Assault on Black Reach. I thought the Space Marine troops were a bargain.
And, plus a Rulebook, there had to be some catch. Now I'm wondering what the catch is. Is the Space Marine Weaponry in Assault good?

[DranWork]

Happy Days Falgorn: Read Cheese's OP It sums up my feelings (and others) on AoBR, but if you need a sumed up version. Great LEARNING kit or alright for experenced SM players that are looking to expand, however as a standing army the SM's are very un optimized whilst the orks are better ballenced.

[Wraith]

In Assault?
Marines start off as 'average' and quickly upgrade to "good" by spending a very little amount of points on them. Thanks to the Marines' "4 men and a sergent" setup, just about every Squad in your army can take either a vehicle or character killing Close Combat weapon, plus grenades and other goodies, depending on what you want to pay for.

Focus your army that way (Codex Blood Angels isn't a bad start) and they quickly become upgraded to "Great" Assault Weapons (Relic Blades and pairs of Lightning Claws are especially good fun).

[Falgorn]

Originally Posted by Wraith

In Assault?
Marines start off as 'average' and quickly upgrade to "good" by spending a very little amount of points on them. Thanks to the Marines' "4 men and a sergent" setup, just about every Squad in your army can take either a vehicle or character killing Close Combat weapon, plus grenades and other goodies, depending on what you want to pay for.

Focus your army that way (Codex Blood Angels isn't a bad start) and they quickly become upgraded to "Great" Assault Weapons (Relic Blades and pairs of Lightning Claws are especially good fun).

Thanks!

Originally Posted by DranWork

Happy Days Falgorn: Read Cheese's OP It sums up my feelings (and others) on AoBR, but if you need a sumed up version. Great LEARNING kit or alright for experenced SM players that are looking to expand, however as a standing army the SM's are very un optimized whilst the orks are better ballenced.

*reads OP over again*
Oh. Didn't notice that.

[Shas aia Toriia]

Originally Posted by Wraith

In Assault?
Marines start off as 'average' and quickly upgrade to "good" by spending a very little amount of points on them. Thanks to the Marines' "4 men and a sergent" setup, just about every Squad in your army can take either a vehicle or character killing Close Combat weapon, plus grenades and other goodies, depending on what you want to pay for.

Focus your army that way (Codex Blood Angels isn't a bad start) and they quickly become upgraded to "Great" Assault Weapons (Relic Blades and pairs of Lightning Claws are especially good fun).

Though to be fair, regular marines get slaughtered in assault compared to dedicated assault troops.

[Cheesegear]

Had a flick through the new Tyranids Codex (it's not officially out yet, so I wasn't allowed to read it), as far as army composition goes, nothing much has changed. You still need large creature HQs, and smaller swarm Troops choices.
I saw Mycetic Spores. Basically function like Drop Pods, except without First Turn Drop and without Guidance...So they suck. They've got a 6" Strength 6, Assault 6 weapon. AP-. Still, it'll ruin Guardsmen, Eldar or Orks who get close to it. Mycetic Spores also transport 20 models, or 1 Monstrous Creature. Kind of lame on the MC side. Especially since MSs don't have Guidance.

Tyranid Warriors are now all over the Codex.
The Hive Tyrant is 170 points base. And gets expensive. He's actually not that viable anymore in 1000 point games.
There's the Tyranid Prime - a Warrior - he's just one single model, rather than a Brood.
Tyrant Guard are Elites. Although I think I saw something where they don't count towards FO in certain situations.
There's Tyrand Warriors (still 3-9) as Troops. They come at 30 points base with Devourers and Scything Talons for free. They also can upgrade for a bunch of stuff. Most people wont ever take them above 40 points. Still, most of the time they'll be cheaper than Terminators. They come with all the same options they used to have...Replace their gun with Rending Claws, extra ScyTals or better guns, etc.
There's the Tyranid Shrike Brood...Basically Warriors with Wings. I think they're 35 points each. Devourers and ScyTals for free.

Carnifii come in Broods of 1-3. I don't think I read the part about where they all have to be armed the same. If that's the case, they're better off being bought in single broods and just taking up more FO. Because the other HS choices (like Trygons and Mawlocs) have ridiculous points costs attached and...Well, let's just say I wasn't really interested in them in the first place.

Biomorphs have been significantly cut down. Tyranids aren't that customisable anymore. Instead there are a bunch of units that are the same-but-not-really (like the different 'kinds' of Warriors) and are just spread out over the FO Chart. Each of them pretty much having every 'useful' Biomorph from the old Codex for that role.
ex. Warriors have BS 3, and a 4+ save to begin with.

Warriors are still 'Swiss Army Knife' (able to do everything at the same time, and do it well) units, which I'm glad about. Because those kinds of units are rare in this game. And, I'd already decided a while ago before the Codex was even out and the only thing I knew was 'Warriors are Troops' that I was going to make another Terminator Warrior army.

Originally Posted by Shas'aia Toriia

Though to be fair, regular marines get slaughtered in assault compared to dedicated assault troops.

That's why you play Blood Angels, Black Templars, Space Wolves or a Bike Army.

[Lycan 01]

Nifty stuff to hear, Cheesegear... So what would you suggest to a player considering going into Tyranids? (I'm not, but I'm curious. Truth be told, I'm looking forward to this Inquisition codex that's being rumored. If its true, I may see if my GF wants to go half-n-half with me on it, since she wanted to play Battle Sisters until she found out how expensive and hard to get they were...)


Soooooo... Anybody going to give advice on what my bro should do? He's got 15 Chaos Marines and a Chaos Lord, and he's getting a kit of 12 Khorne Berskerkers, which will bring him up to 750 points. After that, though, what should he get? His options are:

• Assault on Black Reach, and convert the Termies, Dnaught, and Marines?
• Real Chaos Termies?
• A Chaos Marine Tactical Squad to make into Chosens?

I'm personally suggesting the Tac Squad for Chosens, but he likes the idea of us going 50/50 on AoBR so he can convert the 'Rines and I can have the Orks. (Its tempting, especially the Dethkoptas, but I dunno if I reeeeeally need that many more Orks, especially with just Sluggas and Choppas. )

[Keris]

Originally Posted by Cheesegear

Still...Grey Knights...Not so much. If only because a bare minimum (1 HQ, 2 Troops, no upgrades) 'pure' GK force doesn't have a whole lot of guys on the board in 500 point games. A Daemonhunter force without Inquisitorial Storm Troopers gets expensive. Both in currency and it points. Anyone who plays Deathwing or Wraithguard knows that the lists don't really work out in anything less than 1000 points.

The small size is another of the reasons I'm considering GKs. Having to paint less than 30 models for a 1500pt army appeals to the lazy side of me. And I am planning to 'jump in' at the 1000pt level or so, mainly to catch up with a mate who's collecting Space Wolves.

Originally Posted by Cheesegear

IMHO, Grey Knights work best as allies.

Would they benefit from allying/being allied with SoB? SoB has relatively cheap troops (at least compared with GKs), their own dedicated transports to foul up lines of sight, and it'd be a (moderately) fluffly combination.

Originally Posted by Cheesegear

Of course, if you can go from 0 to 1500-2000 points in a week, I heartily encourage playing GKs.

I may well give it a try then. It might take me longer than a week, but it'll be at a least a fortnight before I can get back down to my FLGS.

Originally Posted by Cheesegear

...What the Hell am I doing!?

Gaining additional experience with converting plastic mini's and moulding small components?

Originally Posted by Cheesegear

Had a flick through the new Tyranids Codex (it's not officially out yet, so I wasn't allowed to read it), as far as army composition goes, nothing much has changed.

Ooh, Niddies. I'm both looking forward to and dreading the new codex.

Originally Posted by Cheesegear

Especially since MSs don't have Guidance.

I think they do, actually. I remember it being bundled in with the rule about transport capacity, that they should reduce scatter by the minimum to avoid units or impassable terrain.

Originally Posted by Cheesegear

Tyrant Guard are Elites. Although I think I saw something where they don't count towards FO in certain situations.

Hive Guard are Elites, which are distinct from Tyrant Guards. You can take a Tyrant Guard for each Hive Tyrant (or Swarmlord) in your army, and they don't take up FO slots.

Originally Posted by Cheesegear

Carnifii come in Broods of 1-3. I don't think I read the part about where they all have to be armed the same. If that's the case, they're better off being bought in single broods and just taking up more FO.

I don't remember them having to be armed similarly either. So there might be hope for Onasuma's 'fexes yet.

[Shas aia Toriia]

Originally Posted by Cheesegear

That's why you play Blood Angels, Black Templars, Space Wolves or a Bike Army.

Wait, why are the Templars crossed out? As far as marines go, they have the best assault out there. Two CC weapons, Preferred Enemy and Land Raiders available for everybody.

[Cheesegear]

Went down to GW today, bought a couple of boxes of Tyranid Warriors, read some more of the Codex;

HQ
Hive Tyrants. 170 points base. That...Makes them less good.
<Monstrous Creature> I forget what it's called, but it spawns Termagants.
Tyranid Alphas (basically a super-Warrior)
And a couple of special characters I didn't pay attention to because I don't care about SCs.

Elites
Hive Guard...Pretty decent.
Lictors in Broods of 1-3
Chameleon Lictors in Broods of 1. ~140 points. I don't know the difference.
Zoanthropes. Holy crap. They have a S10, AP 1 Lance weapon. Strength 10. Lance. 2s to Glance Land Raiders, Leman Russes and Monoliths. AP1 also means +1 to damage rolls. Zoanthropes are now pretty much the only reliable anti-tank weapon now. As everything else has been nerfed (i.e; Venom Cannons)
Some Elite Genestealer Brood. Ymgarl Genestealers, I believe they're called.

Troops
Warriors. As Troops! Cheaper than Terminators and Ogryns. Both of which they crap on. 3 Wounds a piece with 4+ saves, 3 attacks each plus Scything Talons...Plus sweet guns.
Termagants. Seriously amazing. For every one brood of Termagants, you can use one of those Monstrous Creatures (from HQ) as a Troops choice.
Hormagaunts. *shrug*
Genestealers. Broodlords are no longer HQ. So, there goes that. Broodlords are now upgrades to a Genestealer unit. They're pretty much like Sergeants of the Brood. Except way more awesome. Broodlords still kick arse. They're just not HQ.
Rippers. Joy.

Fast Attack
Flying Warriors
Gargoyles
Raveners
Flying Rippers
A flying Monstrous Creature that once per game drops D3 Large Blast markers at S4, AP4, not that great. Since it only happens once.

Heavy Support
...I didn't really care. I was really only reading to find out how I should arm my Warriors (Deathspitters and Scything Talons, FYI)
Mawlocs and Trygons and the like are at least 200 points each. I prefer Carnifii. I still didn't see 'all must be armed the same'. Maybe I'm just not looking hard enough or I'm misreading.

Biomorphs have been nerfed. You don't get +stats anymore.
Weapons have been nerfed - or made better, your choice. Venom Cannons are now S6. Always. Even on Carnifii. And can still only Glance vehicles.
Zoanthropes are the only anti-tank in the army. Otherwise, you need to get your MCs into Close Combat. Shouldn't be too hard since now there's one that comes with wings.
Deathspitters are S5 AP <something, 5?>, Assault 3. Cost 5 points for Warriors. Devourers suck. Always take Deathspitters.
Barbed Stranglers are strength 5 or 6. And cause Pinning.

Conclusion;
High end Tyranid ranged combat has been nerfed. While low-end Tyranid Ranged Combat (Devourers and Deathspitters) have been made better.
Tyranids either need Zoanthropes for anti-tank, or get MCs into close combat. Which is harder than it sounds.
Termagants vs. Hormagaunts is now a serious decision. Because Devourers don't suck anymore, and Termagants let you field a Monstrous Creature (usually HQ) as a Troops choice. That spawns more Termagants.
A lot of the 'new' units...Kind of suck. Since they're mostly MCs and cost your firstborn in currency and in points.