The Age of the Warriors - a ToB expansion book idea - Page 16

dspeyer · 02-18-2010, 11:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoshuaZ

Hmm, are there other fixes you prefer?

I started a seperate thread on the subject.

Belatedly I realize that TDO was concerned about a different issue -- that IHS auto-succeeds regardless of the power of the one who inflicted the condition. He has a point. When a greater deity paralyzes a 5th level warblade, it should stick. This is more of a change and less of a clarification, though. We might offer it as an alternate rule.

JoshuaZ · 02-19-2010, 12:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dspeyer

I started a seperate thread on the subject.

Belatedly I realize that TDO was concerned about a different issue -- that IHS auto-succeeds regardless of the power of the one who inflicted the condition. He has a point. When a greater deity paralyzes a 5th level warblade, it should stick. This is more of a change and less of a clarification, though. We might offer it as an alternate rule.

Hmm, it might make sense to combine that issue with your fix. Not sure. (Also note that I've made some comments on some of your PrCs).

Godskook · 02-19-2010, 01:46 AM

I'm not sure if you've gone over this or not, but I think you guys need to codify what qualifies as a 'complete' discipline, mechanically. Falling Star by Fax is one of my favorite disciplines, but it is lacking some assumed bits that people probably just don't think of when building a discipline: Associated feats and necessary class adaptations. Each of the 9 disciplines have 2 feats associated with them, and while they range in usefulness, they're all at least something. Each of the 3 base classes is proficient in all the weapons necessary to learn their disciplines among the 9. However, a swordsage can not readily take falling star maneuvers without houseruling things, cause spot is not on their class list iirc, and they are not proficient with any ranged weapons.

At minimum, a Discipline should include:
-Method of gaining proficiency in discipline's weapons. Imho, for non-exotic weapons, this should be without the cost of a feat slot.
-Method of gaining appropriate class skill
-A practical feat that directly enhances combat in a discipline-associated way.
-A tactical feat, just to complete the set as laid out in the ToB
-Extra Credit: Follow Fax's standard and lay out some epic feats too.

elliott20 · 02-19-2010, 02:51 AM

I think at the moment because of the interchangeable nature of the disciplines, we haven't actually taken the time to tie on specific discipline choice to the original three classes.

What we HAVE been to talking about though, is attaching the theme appropriate disciplines to the newly created base classes and (perhaps) PrCs for access, and those classes will implicitly have access to the relevant skills.

In addition to that, TD1's alternate discipline rule covers this somewhat. (IIRC, there's a provision in there where if you switch out a discipline for another, you lose the class skill for the one you lost and gain the class skill for the discipline you gained, also, you can always tack on the discipline at a later stage for 1000 xp with training and gain access to the class skill as well, I THINK. Not sure about that last part)

But to me, even without the access to class skills, I'm fine with it. This means that certain classes (especially the new base classes) will intrinsically be BETTER at using certain disciplines than others, synergies and all.

The same way for the proficiencies, I feel.

Totally agree with the tactical and enhancement feat though. Not quite as adamant about the epic feat though, since that's kind of just gravy.

JoshuaZ · 02-19-2010, 12:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Godskook

I'm not sure if you've gone over this or not, but I think you guys need to codify what qualifies as a 'complete' discipline, mechanically. Falling Star by Fax is one of my favorite disciplines, but it is lacking some assumed bits that people probably just don't think of when building a discipline: Associated feats and necessary class adaptations. Each of the 9 disciplines have 2 feats associated with them, and while they range in usefulness, they're all at least something. Each of the 3 base classes is proficient in all the weapons necessary to learn their disciplines among the 9. However, a swordsage can not readily take falling star maneuvers without houseruling things, cause spot is not on their class list iirc, and they are not proficient with any ranged weapons.

At minimum, a Discipline should include:
-Method of gaining proficiency in discipline's weapons. Imho, for non-exotic weapons, this should be without the cost of a feat slot.

Doesn't this automatically exist via Martial Study?

Quote:

-Method of gaining appropriate class skill

The Demented One's mechanic and Martial Study both cover this. Yes?

Quote:

-A practical feat that directly enhances combat in a discipline-associated way.
-A tactical feat, just to complete the set as laid out in the ToB

Yeah. That's going to be rough. Most of the homebrew disciplines don't have these. Neither of mine do. Honestly, making tactical feats that are balanced, mechanically simple, and thematically appropriate is tough. I'll try to think about what they should do for my disciplines and maybe some of the others that don't have such feats.

Quote:

Epic feats

Glad that's extra credit, although I've had a few ideas for some floating around for both my two disciplines and a few others. If I have time, I'll post them later.

Jenrock · 02-19-2010, 12:22 PM

As far as weapon proficiency goes, a couple of years ago I thought up a solution that worked well for my group: give each discipline a weapon group (as per Unearthed Arcana). For instance, the Diamond Mind proficiency allows the character to use the rapier, shortspear, bastard sword, and trident without penalty. If a character has one or more maneuvers of a particular style, he gains access to the weapon group of that style.

DracoDei · 02-19-2010, 02:52 PM

Yet one more thing on our to-do list is to come up with "Unparalleled Prowess" and "Focused Rivalry" abilities for Master of One for as many disciplines as we can manage.

I already did Falling Anvil, although the balance may need tweaking. I am going to clone my first-draft below in hopes that it will help with getting E.A.C.H. .

The Unparalleled Prowess ability for Falling Anvil:

Quote:

Falling Anvil: A Falling Anvil madman is often hampered by the very madness that protects him, but a Master of One can sometimes channel the zaniness to a more benign form. Any and each time a Falling Anvil maneuver they initiate would cause a bad effect they are allowed a Will save versus a DC of 14 + Maneuver Level to negate this effect. Example: If they are under the effects of Pull Yourself Together, then each time they are struck with a slashing weapon they are allowed a DC 19 Will save to have the cut close up mere inches behind the weapon as it travels through their body. Similarly, if they are in Not Looking Down they may choose to not be flat-footed against any given attack, but after the attack resolves, they must make a DC 22 Will save or fall. In the case of the Give Bomb and Give Bundle of Dynamite maneuvers, if the Adept loses the opposed bluff check, the object created disappears after the Adept yanks the fuse out.

My first idea was to give them full immunity to the side effects of their maneuvers, but since I consider Falling Anvil pretty powerful, I thought that would be overkill, here it is basically saving against the DC of the maneuver, but with a static 18 initiating stat. At higher levels this might become trivial, but I think that is perfectly fine, and even a 5% failure chance can induce some dramatic tension and/or caution.

And here is my best guess at a Focused Rivalry ability:

Quote:

Falling Anvil: A Master of One using this ability gains immunity to all non-damage related effects of Falling Anvil strikes. For this purpose bypassing damage reduction is considered a damage related effect, and thus not protected against by this class feature. This includes the trip attempts of banana peels, and the rough terrain genertated by many of the higher level _______ Drop maneuvers.

Balance-wise I am not sure of this, but since it turns the 9th level strike into a mere standard attack, I think it has strong possbilities. If it needs to be a bit stronger I could reverse the bit about DR (not useful to most Masters of One) and/or have it grant resistance to each energy type against damage from Falling Anvil maneuvers (which would be especially effective against Accursed Thunderhead since that deals both Electricity and a small amount of Sonic damage).

DracoDei · 02-20-2010, 05:45 AM

I am going to Archive the current version of the Sohei here... because I have an inexplicable suspicion it may turn out to be useful and Shyftir is talking of doing a total re-write, and I don't know if he means to use a new thread (which is probably should, if only to keep the necromancy down).

ALSO, SHYFTIR JUST PUT UP THE MYSTIC COBRA DISCIPLINE FOR GRABS FOR ANYONE WHO WANTS TO FINISH IT. I have this crazy idea I might do some of that myself, but that may just be lack of sleep talking.

Spoiler

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shyftir

This is my attempt to convert the basic concept of the Sohei class from OA into an initiator class. There is also a new discipline I'm working on Tentatively named "Mystic Cobra" which will be related.

Sohei Adept
You will not disturb the sages while I stand guard, vile one. - Shekka Kai, hobgoblin sohei

Sohei serve as guardians for monasteries and temples, they stand firm while others fall short. Known to favor pole-arms and to strike with lightning speed, they are the main practitioners of the Mystic Cobra school, and study few other martial disciplines if any.

Making a Sohei Adept
Abilities: Sohei are primarily melee combatants who specialize in support, as such they benefit greatly from Strength and Constitution. Intelligence and Dexterity are often prerequisites for feats chosen by Sohei.
Races: While any race can take up the path of the Sohei, it appeals mostly to disciplined individuals. Therefore you see few elven or halfling sohei and even fewer among the savage races, with notable exception of Hobgoblins who find the militaristic lifestyle to their liking.
Alignment: Any non-chaotic. Sohei are disciplined and devout. Their lives are given over to a strict regimen of duty and training.

Sohei Adept. Hit Die: d10

Level	BAB	Fort	Ref	Will	Special	M. Known	M. Ready	Stances
1st	+0	+2	+0	+2	Weapon Focus: (any pole-arm)	3	3	1
2nd	+1	+3	+0	+3		4	3	1
3rd	+2	+3	+1	+3	Die-Hard	5	3	1
4th	+3	+4	+1	+4		5	4	1
5th	+3	+4	+1	+4	strength of mind, Mettle	6	4	2
6th	+4	+5	+2	+5	Weapon Spec: (pole-arm)	6	4	2
7th	+5	+5	+2	+5		7	4	2
8th	+6/1	+6	+2	+6	Pole-Arm Adaption	7	4	2
9th	+6/1	+6	+3	+6		8	4	2
10th	+7/2	+7	+3	+7	Instant Recovery 1/day	8	5	3
11th	+8/3	+7	+3	+7		9	5	3
12th	+9/4	+8	+4	+8	Blade Meditation (Mystic Cobra)	9	5	3
13th	+10/5	+8	+4	+8		10	5	3
14th	+10/5	+9	+4	+9	DR 1/-	10	5	3
15th	+11/6	+9	+5	+9		11	6	3
16th	+12/7	+10	+5	+10	DR 2/-	11	6	4
17th	+13/8	+10	+5	+10		12	6	4
18th	+13/8	+11	+6	+11	DR 3/-	12	6	4
19th	+14/9	+11	+6	+11		13	6	4
20th	+15/10/5	+12	+6	+12	Instant Recovery 2/day, DR 4/-	13	7	4

Class Skills: Balance (Dex), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Heal (Wis), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Martial Lore (Int), Knowledge (religion) (Int), and Profession (Wis)
Skill Points: 4 + Int /per Lvl (x 4 at first level)
Starting Gold: 6d4x10 gp (150 gp)
Starting Age: As paladin

Class Features
As a sohei you rely on accuracy and technique to force opponents into difficult situations where you and your allies can unleash devastating attacks.

Weapon and Armor Proficiencies: Sohei are proficient with All Simple and Martial Weapons along with all pole-arms, even Exotic ones. They are proficient with Light and Medium armor (but no shields).
Maneuvers: The disciplines open to you are Devoted Spirit, Army of One, Stone Dragon and Mystic Cobra.* (new discipline)
Your maneuvers are identical in all ways to those of the warblade except for recovery method which is as the swordsage.
Stances: Your stances work as a warblades, except from the sohei discipline list.
Weapon Focus: At 1st level you gain Weapon Focus with the pole-arm of your choice as a bonus feat. You lose access to this feat if you are wearing heavy armor
Die-Hard: At 3rd level you gain Die-hard as a bonus feat, whether or not you would normally qualify.
Strength of Mind: You become immune to stunning and sleep spells.
Weapon Specialization: At 6th level you gain Weapon Specialization as a bonus feat with a pole-arm with which you already have Weapon Focus.
Pole-arm Adaption: You have mastered the art of using a pole-arm in close combat. You can now treat any pole-arm as a double weapon striking with the back end as if it were a quarterstaff. (1d6+1/2 Strength Modifier, x2 Bludgeoning) No matter the reach of the original weapon this ability can only be used on targets with 5 feet.
Mettle: If a sohei makes a successful Fort. Or Will Save against a spell or effect that would normally reduce the effect, instead the sohei suffers no affect at all.
Blade Meditation: At 12th level you gain the feat Blade Meditation with the chosen discipline of Mystic Cobra, as a bonus feat.
Damage Reduction: Starting at 14th level you gain DR 1/-. This improves by 1 at every even level, reaching a maximum of DR 4/- at 20th level.
Instant Recovery: At 10th level you gain the extraordinary ability to recover all your expended maneuvers as a free action once per day. This increases to 2/day at 20th level.
Update:

Mystic Cobra Style

EDIT: I also made some changes to my above integration of Falling Anvil with Master of One.

Frog Dragon · 02-20-2010, 07:23 AM

I made the discipline feats for Piercing Point.

DracoDei · 02-20-2010, 08:47 AM

Added a new sheet to the spreadsheet HERE to serve as a checklist for which disciplines have a non-tactical feat, tactical feat, legacy weapon, and a slotted item that grants maneuvers (such as the White Raven Crowns and Desert Wind Capes and what-not). I don't think that it is mandatory for all of them to have each one, or even most of the boxes to be "Yes" before we are done. Particularly, legacy weapons would be a huge undertaking... maybe if we got someone in who can make up legacy weapons in their sleep, like Vorpal Tribble or Bhu can do creatures... otherwise, it is a pipe-dream... at the other extreme, the maneuver granting items need only a slot and a physical description.

EDIT: Filled in a few cells on the PrC list. Added Adept Hunter (which I think couldn't hurt), and Leap Dragoon (which, even refluffed to eliminate the Fratley's and inter-universe portals from the picture is still probably something that should be carefully considered for inclusion or exclusion, but I figured I would throw it out anyway).

dspeyer · 02-20-2010, 01:53 PM

Cool! We're about 2/3 of the way there for PrCs. I've sorted to put what need work on top.

I added Master of One columns to the extra discipline stuff sheet, but considering the amount of new material required, I'm doubtful we'll ever fill it in.

DracoDei · 02-20-2010, 02:46 PM

What is the "needed" column on the PrC sheet for? I see numbers rangeing from 0 to 4, but I don't know what they mean.

I also did up Allurehn's Vindicators. Marriage councilor's with enough class levels can now go down to the lower planes on their vacations and rip out a few succubus spines to blow off steam.

dspeyer · 02-20-2010, 02:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DracoDei

What is the "needed" column on the PrC sheet for? I see numbers rangeing from 0 to 4, but I don't know what they mean.

Empty columns -- so we can sort it.

DracoDei · 02-20-2010, 03:28 PM

Ah, right. Thought that mi9ght be it, but because you must be manually updating it, it didn't always match. Note also that I have (obviously) been vastly less than comprehensive in my suggestions in the "suggested include/exclude" boxes I did fill in, and even what I did put in includes some pretty wild guesses.

dspeyer · 02-20-2010, 03:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DracoDei

Ah, right. Thought that mi9ght be it, but because you must be manually updating it, it didn't always match. Note also that I have (obviously) been less than comprehensive in my suggestions in the boxes I did fill in, and even what I did put in includes some pretty wild guesses.

Oops! I wound up with inconsistant formulas: some use the "exclusion" column and some don't. Considering how rarely that column is used, I'll change them all to the "don't" version.

dspeyer · 02-21-2010, 02:33 AM

OK, we've got basic description. Here's a (kinda) pretty summary:

Name	Author	Concept	Schools as Written	Schools Suggested
Adept Hunter	Draco Dei	Follow on to PairO'Dice 's Master of One for Broken Blade, pwns other adepts	Broken Blade, very limited access to all others	No change
* Vindicators	DSpeyer	divine (Ruby Knight Vindicator variants	Devoted Spirit, Stone Dragon, White Raven and one other	none (Except as new gods are added)
Aberrant Armorlord	Krimm	melds with parasite	Diamond Mind, Far Realm, Stone Dragon, Tiger Claw
Al-shra'a Al-mharb	Krimm	desert nomad warrior	Desert Wind, Iron Heart, Shadow Hand, Tiger Claw
Angel of Death	Krimm	assassin	Diamond Mind, Oncoming Storm, Setting Sun, Shadow Hand
Another Master of One	PairO'Dice	Focuses on specific discipline	Single discipline chosen	None.
Artmage	DSpeyer	arcane dual progression, turn spells into maneuvers	Desert Wind, Devoted Spirit, Diamond Mind, Shadow Hand	Solaris Arcanum, Untamed Essence, Frozen Zephyr / Acidic Fog / Shocking Sky, Coin's Edge, Masked Moon, Witch Razor
Blade Incarnate	Krimm	incarnum warrior	Devoted Spirit, Iron Heart. Additional based on alignment. Good - Golden Saint, White Raven. Evil - Dread Crown, Shadow Hand. Law - Diamond Mind, Quicksilver Aegis. Chaos- Kaleidoscopic Dream	Alternates based on alignment: Good- Scarlet Bravura. Evil- Narrow Bridge. Chaos- Far Realm
Blade Maiden	Krimm	women who bolt swords to their armbones	Diamond Mind, Oncoming Storm, Tiger Claw
Blade Operant	Demented One	Implanted skills, speed, critical hits	Dancing Leaf, Oncoming Storm, Tiger Claw
Bladelord (d20 Modern?)	Yue Ryong (WotC)	mystics in the modern world	Desert Wind, Diamond Mind, Setting Sun, Shadow Hand, Stone Dragon & Tiger Claw	coin's edge, masked moon, black rain
Blood Sage	Krimm	martial magic user focusing on blood magic	Diamond Mind, Oncoming Storm, Shadow Hand, Tiger Claw
Braveheart Bravo	Demented One	halflings fighting larger foes through mobility and bravado	Dancing Leaf, Iron Heart	Oncoming Storm, Leaping Gale
Combat Artisan	Krimm	Artificer/Initiator Hybrid	Diamond Mind, Iron Heart, Stone Dragon
Concealed Celestial	Krimm	Anathema to the Unmasked Fiend. Outsider with the good subtype only	Devoted Spirit, Golden Saint, Stone Dragon, White Raven	Falling Anvil, Scarlet Bravura
Crimson Banner Executor	Edge	astrology and quick combat prophecies	Army of One, Coin's Edge, Dancing Leaf Diamond Mind, Iron Heart
Crusader of Death	Krimm	blackguard variant	Devoted Spirit, Iron Heart, Shadow Hand	Dread Crown, Infinite Torment, Ninefold Damnation
Demonspawn Harbinger	Krimm	Warlock/Devoted Spirit using class Hybrid	Devoted Spirit, Dread Crown, Shadow Hand or Tiger Claw	Infinite Torment, Narrow Bridge?, Witch Razor
Doom Lord	Krimm	Unholy general	Devoted Spirit, Dread Crown, Shadow Hand, White Raven	Narrow Bridge
Draconic Partisan	Krimm	humanoid devoted to dragons	Stone Dragon, Tiger Claw, associated energy school	monkey's paw (?)
Dreadcloak	Edge	assassin that uses fear	Army of One, Narrow Bridge, Iron Heart, Shadow Hand
Dreaming Lotus Assassin	Demented One	very secretive assasins	Diamond Mind, Oncoming Storm, Shadow Hand	Viper Fang, Black Lotus
Eaglewing Striker	Krimm	eagle-rider	Iron Heart, Falling Star, Iron Heart, Tiger Claw, Twin Spirit	Silver Pegasus and True Arrow (if those don't get remixed), gentle breeze, Black Rain
Ebon Phoenix Mage	Krimm	Evil counterpart to Jade Phoenix Mage, hybrid	Desert Wind, Dread Crown, Shadow Hand
Ebon Raven General	Demented One	leader of sneaks	Shadow Hand, White Raven	Scarlet Bravura
Ecclesiastic Knight	Errantx	combines divine spellcasting and martial ability	Devoted Spirit, Stone Dragon, White Raven
Eldritch Blademaster	Krimm	warlock dual-progression	Iron Heart, Shadow Hand, Tiger Claw	Solaris Arcanum, untamed essence
Enlightened Budoka	Demented One	combat is not about violence, or skill, or even art. It is nothing more than the flow of energy–physical, mental, and spiritual	Golden Saint, Setting Sun, Stone Dragon
Errant Blademaster	Demented One	latecomers to the sublime path who can ignore prerequisites	special list	none (it would be like adding beguiler spells)
Guardian of the Frozen Grotto	Yue Ryong (WotC)	(Druid or Ranger)/Placid Lake Hybrid	Diamond Mind, Placid Lake, Tiger Claw
Harmonic Lance Adept	Krimm	uses sound	Diamond Mind, Iron Heart, White Raven	Lost Lyrics, rending scream
Hollowed Soul	Krimm	merge with your possessing fiend	Dread Crown, Stone Dragon, Shadow Hand, Tiger Claw	Infinite Torment, Ninefold Damnation
Holy Deathless One	Krimm	worshiper of Aeomon, brings peaceful death	Devoted Spirit, Settting Sun, White Raven	Narrow Bridge? Golden Saint
Holy Knight	DragoonWraith	lg champion with warlock-like invocations	Devoted Spirit	Golden Saint
Huixxa Vo Nyarlathotep	Krimm	shapechanging servant of Nyarlathotep	Far Realm, Kaleidoscopic Dream	Falling Anvil
Incarnate Knight	vasharanpaladin	Meldshaping/(Devoted Spirit and/or Diamond Mind) Hybrid	Devoted Spirit, Diamond Mind	"Basically going to hit all the ""Mentality, Alignment or Aligned Plane"" and ""Additional Power Source"" ones here, given the fluff, and initial disciplines. Silver Crane, Far Realm, Ninefold Damnation, Infinite Torment, Dread Crown, Golden Saint, Falling Anvil, Quicksilver Aegis, Black Heron, Kaleidoscopic Dream, Narrow Bridge, Mental Grip, Sleeping Goddess, Lost Lyrics, Solaris Arcanum, Untamed Essence, Witch Razor, Holy Word"
Iron Slasher	Krimm	Dextrous and brutal	Diamond Mind, Iron Heart, Oncoming Storm	Viper Fang
Ironsword Speaker	Krimm	truespeaking dual-progression	Diamond Mind, Holy Word, Iron Heart or White Raven
Kazarzeth	Errantx	warrior who channels internal demon into crystal blade	Black Heron, Diamond Mind, Iron Heart, Shadow Hand	Narrow Bridge, Dread Crown, Ninefold Damnation, Infinite Torment
Leap Dragoon	Draco Dei	Disappear to other planes, return with overwhelming force	Army of One, Devoted Spirit, Mystic Cobra, Piercing Point.
Leviathan-Born	Demented One	darfellen -- very angry darfellen	Army of One, Ocean Tempest, Scarlet Bravura	Falling Wave, Ocean Soul, Rending Scream (are there rules about underwater sonic effects?)
Madspawn Broodling	Demented One	symbiont using	Far Realm, Iron Heart, Tiger Claw
Masked Demon	Krimm	humanoid possessed by fiend	Dread Crown, Iron Heart, Shadow Hand, Tiger Claw	Black Heron, Infinite Torment, Ninefold Damnation
Moonflame Adept -	Yue Ryong (WotC)	Spellfire/(Crescent Moon or Diamond Mind) Hybrid	Crescent Moon, Dancing Fox, Diamond Mind
Nightmare Reaver	Demented One	empowered martial soulknives with some mental powers	Diamond Mind, Iron Heart	Bladed Thoughts, maybe Sleeping Goddess
Occult Adversary	Krimm	gain martial maneuvers from vestiges	Far Realm, Diamond Mind, Iron Heart, Stone Dragon
Oracle Knight	Demented One	psionic dual-progression, perception	Diamond Mind, White Raven	Mental Grip, Sleeping Goddess
Pragmatist	DSpeyer	mundaneness, defense	Diamond Mind, Iron Heart, Setting Sun	Dancing Leaf, Steel Mountain, Oncoming Storm
Prodigal Overlord	Krimm	leader	Army of One, Scarlet Bravura
Saurian Brute	Krimm	imitate and become dinosaurs, and divine dual-progression (for druids)	Tiger Claw or Stone Dragon	Masked Moon
Savage Savant	Demented One	psionic and bestial	Diamond Mind, Stone Dragon, Tiger Claw	Mental Grip, Masked Moon
Shadow Knight	Duke Malagigi	uses darkness but for good	Devoted Spirit, Diamond Mind, Shadow Hand	Falling Anvil(cf Darkwing Duck)
Shadowstalker	DSpeyer	stealth	Shadow Hand	none
Shrouded Ambusher	Krimm	arcane stealth	Oncoming Storm, Shadow Hand	Solaris Arcanum, Untamed Essence
Silent Demon	Demented One	warrior with internal demons	Diamond Mind, Dread Crown, Golden Saint, Setting Sun	Black Heron, Infinite Torment, Ninefold Damnation
Soulfire Invoker	Krimm	pyromaniac bards who once revered the jade/ebon phoenix mages, but rebelled	Desert Wind, Shadow Hand or White Raven	Lost Lyrics, untamed essence
Spellfire Banisher	Demented One	anti-caster warrior	Diamond Mind, Iron Heart	Untamed Essence
Spirit Archer	Krimm (With help from Robert Frost?)	soulbow	Devoted Spirit, Diamond Mind, Falling Star	Black Rain, Way of the Gear, True Arrow, Bladed Thoughts
Spirit Craftsman	Krimm	artificier dual-progression	Diamond Mind, Iron Heart, Shadow Hand or Stone Dragon	untamed essence
Spirit Lord: Champion	Krimm	Leaders who put their souls into their weapons, granting the weapons great power	Devoted Spirit, Iron Heart, Stone Dragon, Tiger Claw White Raven
Spirit Lord: Skirmisher	Krimm	Scouts who put their souls into their weapons, granting the weapons great power	Diamond Mind, Iron Heart, Shadow Hand
Spirit Lord: Spellmaster	Krimm	Mages who put their souls into their weapons, granting the weapons great power	Desert Wind, Setting Sun White Raven
Student of Nine Claws	DSpeyer	For monsters, especially dragons	Diamond Mind, Setting Sun, Stone Dragon, Tiger Claw	"none (DracoDei: asks ""Why?"") -- because the class features are tied to the specific schools"
Sublime Form Master	DracoDei	Just Stances, no Maneuvers.	Any Nine	None. Already generic.
Sublime Warrior	Demented One	independent discoverers of sublime way (has own recovery mechanic)	Any three	(Automatic)
Sword of Levakross	Krimm	evil	Desert Wind, Devoted Spirit, Dread Crown, Iron Heart, Shadow Hand	Ninefold Damnation and Infinite Torment, maybe in some sort of enforced balance
The Master of One	Errantx	Focuses on a single discipline	chosen discipline	(Automatic)
Thousand-Arrow Archer	Demented One	archer	Devoted Spirit, Diamond Mind, Falling Star	Black Rain, Way of the Gear, True Arrow
True Master of Nine	DracoDei	Perfect balance between at least 9 disciplines.	All that you have at least one manuever or stance from before entering it.	None. Already automatically covered.
Unmasked Fiend	Krimm	fiend pretending to be human and gaining bonuses to/for racial powers	Dread Crown, Iron Heart, Shadow Hand, Stone Dragon, Tiger Claw	ninefold damnation or infinite torment, according to creature type
Unseelie Knight	Krimm	fey powers, divine spellcasting	Dancing Leaf, Shadow Hand, Tiger Claw disciplines	Oncoming Storm, Glacial Chill
Unveiled Dragon	Krimm	dragon pretending to be human and gaining bonuses to/for racial powers	Stone Dragon, Tiger Claw, one more
Warforged Armorlord	Krimm	Warforged who improve their own bodies	Iron Heart, Stone Dragon
Warped Angel	Krimm	Fall from Sanity led to fall from Grace. Ferocity is all that remains.	Iron Heart, Shadow Hand, Tiger Claw
Warpforged Adept	Edge	agile, warforged only, focusing on mobility & placement	Diamond Mind, Iron Heart
Whirlwind Heir	Demented One	wind-inspired	Diamond Mind, Iron Heart	gentle breeze, leaping gale
Zealot of Salamander	Krimm	Sphoraxun (homebrew heat-loving lizardfolk) pyromaniac cleric	Devoted Spirit, Desert Wind, Tiger Claw

By disciplines:

Discipline	Classes that have it originally	Classes we proposed adding it to
army of one	Crimson Banner Executor, Dreadcloak, Leap Dragoon, Leviathan-Born, Prodigal Overlord,	,
black heron	Kazarzeth,	, Incarnate Knight, Masked Demon, Silent Demon,
black lotus		, Dreaming Lotus Assassin,
black rain		, Bladelord (d20 Modern?), Eaglewing Striker, Spirit Archer, Thousand-Arrow Archer,
bladed thoughts		, Nightmare Reaver, Spirit Archer,
broken blade	Adept Hunter,	,
chosen discipline	The Master of One,	,
mystic cobra	Leap Dragoon,	,
narrow bridge	Dreadcloak,	, Blade Incarnate, Demonspawn Harbinger, Doom Lord, Holy Deathless One, Incarnate Knight, Kazarzeth,
ninefold damnation		, Crusader of Death, Hollowed Soul, Incarnate Knight, Kazarzeth, Masked Demon, Silent Demon, Sword of Levakross, Unmasked Fiend,
ocean soul		, Leviathan-Born,
ocean tempest	Leviathan-Born,	,
oncoming storm	Angel of Death, Blade Maiden, Blade Operant, Blood Sage, Dreaming Lotus Assassin, Iron Slasher, Shrouded Ambusher,	, Braveheart Bravo, Pragmatist, Unseelie Knight,
piercing point	Leap Dragoon,	,
placid lake	Guardian of the Frozen Grotto,	,
quicksilver aegis	Blade Incarnate,	, Incarnate Knight,
rending scream		, Harmonic Lance Adept, Leviathan-Born,
scarlet bravura	Leviathan-Born, Prodigal Overlord,	, Blade Incarnate, Concealed Celestial, Ebon Raven General,
setting sun	Angel of Death, Bladelord (d20 Modern?), Enlightened Budoka, Pragmatist, Silent Demon, Spirit Lord: Spellmaster, Student of Nine Claws,	,
settting sun	Holy Deathless One,	,
shadow hand	Al-shra'a Al-mharb, Angel of Death, Artmage, Blade Incarnate, Bladelord (d20 Modern?), Blood Sage, Crusader of Death, Demonspawn Harbinger, Doom Lord, Dreadcloak, Dreaming Lotus Assassin, Ebon Phoenix Mage, Ebon Raven General, Eldritch Blademaster, Hollowed Soul, Kazarzeth, Masked Demon, Shadow Knight, Shadowstalker, Shrouded Ambusher, Soulfire Invoker, Spirit Craftsman, Spirit Lord: Skirmisher, Sword of Levakross, Unmasked Fiend, Unseelie Knight, Warped Angel,	,
silver pegasus		, Eaglewing Striker,
sleeping goddess		, Incarnate Knight, Nightmare Reaver, Oracle Knight,
solaris arcanum		, Artmage, Eldritch Blademaster, Incarnate Knight, Shrouded Ambusher,
steel mountain		, Pragmatist,
stone dragon	* Vindicators, Aberrant Armorlord, Bladelord (d20 Modern?), Combat Artisan, Concealed Celestial, Draconic Partisan, Ecclesiastic Knight, Enlightened Budoka, Hollowed Soul, Occult Adversary, Saurian Brute, Savage Savant, Spirit Craftsman, Spirit Lord: Champion, Student of Nine Claws, Unmasked Fiend, Unveiled Dragon, Warforged Armorlord,	,
tiger claw	Aberrant Armorlord, Al-shra'a Al-mharb, Blade Maiden, Blade Operant, Bladelord (d20 Modern?), Blood Sage, Demonspawn Harbinger, Draconic Partisan, Eaglewing Striker, Eldritch Blademaster, Guardian of the Frozen Grotto, Hollowed Soul, Madspawn Broodling, Masked Demon, Saurian Brute, Savage Savant, Spirit Lord: Champion, Student of Nine Claws, Unmasked Fiend, Unseelie Knight, Unveiled Dragon, Warped Angel, Zealot of Salamander,	,
true arrow		, Eaglewing Striker, Spirit Archer, Thousand-Arrow Archer,
twin spirit	Eaglewing Striker,	,
untamed essence		, Artmage, Eldritch Blademaster, Incarnate Knight, Shrouded Ambusher, Soulfire Invoker, Spellfire Banisher, Spirit Craftsman,
viper fang		, Dreaming Lotus Assassin, Iron Slasher,
way of the gear		, Spirit Archer, Thousand-Arrow Archer,
white raven	* Vindicators, Blade Incarnate, Concealed Celestial, Doom Lord, Ebon Raven General, Ecclesiastic Knight, Harmonic Lance Adept, Holy Deathless One, Ironsword Speaker, Oracle Knight, Soulfire Invoker, Spirit Lord: Champion, Spirit Lord: Spellmaster,	,
witch razor		, Artmage, Demonspawn Harbinger, Incarnate Knight,

Categorized (with lots of overlap):

Category	Classes
archer	Spirit Archer, Thousand-Arrow Archery,
advancing non-martial powers	* Vindicators, Artmage, Blade Incarnate, Blood Sage, Combat Artisan, Demonspawn Harbinger, Ebon Phoenix Mage, Ecclesiastic Knight, Eldritch Blademaster,Guardian of the Frozen Grotto, Incarnate Knight, Ironsword Speaker, Nightmare Reaver, Occult Adversary, Oracle Knight, Saurian Brute, Savage Savant, Shrouded Ambusher, Soulfire Invoker, Spirit Craftsman, Spirit Lord: Spellmaster, Unseelie Knight, Zealot of Salamander,
evil	Crusader of Death, Doom Lord, Hollowed Soul, Kazarzeth, Masked Demon, Silent Demon, Sword of Levakross, Unmasked Fiend, Zealot of Salamander,
good	Concealed Celestial, Holy Deathless One, Holy Knight, Shadow Knight,
leadership	Ebon Raven General, Prodigal Overlord, Spirit Lord: Champion,
focused on the sublime path itself	Adept Hunter, Another Master of One, Sublime Form Master, The Master of One, True Master of Nine,
mobility	Al-shra'a Al-mharb, Braveheart Bravo, Warpforged Adept, Whirlwind Heir,
for specific races/monsters	Braveheart Bravo, Leviathan-Born, Student of Nine Claws, Unveiled Dragon, Warforged Armorlord, Warped Angel, Warpforged Adept, Zealot of Salamander, Concealed Celestial,Unmasked Fiend,
mystic	Bladelord (d20 Modern?), Enlightened Budoka,
nature	Guardian of the Frozen Grotto, Saurian Brute, Unseelie Knight,
not requiring a martial base class	Errant Blademaster, Sublime Warrior,
involving possession by outsider	Concealed Celestial, Hollowed Soul, Kazarzeth, Masked Demon, Silent Demon, Unmasked Fiend,
sneaky	Angel of Death, Dreadcloak, Dreaming Lotus Assassin, Ebon Raven General, Shadowstalker, Shrouded Ambusher, Spirit Lord: Skirmisher,
weapon	Spirit Lord: Champion, Spirit Lord: Skirmisher, Spirit Lord: Spellmaster,
no category	Aberrant Armorlord, Blade Maiden, Blade Operant, Crimson Banner Executor, Draconic Partisan, Eaglewing Striker, Harmonic Lance Adept, Huixxa Vo Nyarlathotep, Iron Slasher, Leap Dragoon, Madspawn Broodling, Moonflame Adept -, Pragmatist, Spellfire Banisher

Advancing Non-Martial Powers

power	classes
Artificier	Combat Artisan,Spirit Craftsman,
Binder	Occult Adversary,
Incarnum	Blade Incarnate, Incarnate Knight,
Psionics	Nightmare Reaver, Oracle Knight, Savage Savant,
Spellcasting -- Arcane	Artmage, Ebon Phoenix Mage, Shrouded Ambusher, Soulfire Invoker (bard),
Spellcasting -- Cleric	* Vindicators, Ecclesiastic Knight, Zealot of Salamander,
Spellcasting -- Druid	Saurian Brute, Unseelie Knight, Guardian of the Frozen Grotto
Spellcasting -- Any	Spirit Lord: Spellmaster, Blood Sage,
Truespeaking	Ironsword Speaker,
Warlock	Demonspawn Harbinger,Eldritch Blademaster,

For Specific Races/Monsters

creature	class(es)
Halfling	Braveheart Bravo,
darfellen	Leviathan-Born,
Any monster, but especially dragons	Student of Nine Claws,
Dragons	Unveiled Dragon,
Warforged	Warforged Armorlord, Warpforged Adept,
Fallen Angels	Warped Angel,
Sphoraxun	Zealot of Salamander,
Celestials	Concealed Celestial,
Fiends	Unmasked Fiend,

Random_person · 02-21-2010, 03:14 AM

I just designed a new PrC, if you're interested. Behold, the Eldritch Adept.

EDIT: Dammit, someone beat me to it long ago. Back to pacing around hunting ideas, then.

DracoDei · 02-21-2010, 03:24 AM

I would put Black Rain in with "Archery", and it was on that basis that I suggested its addition to the PrCs I did.

JoshuaZ · 02-21-2010, 10:36 PM

Ok. Two more PrCs are in good enough shape to be added. Here are the Seeker of Lost Swords and the Preserver of Future Blades. The first uses necromancy to learn maneuvers from the dead while the second uses psionic power to pass martial skill on to the living. If there are no objections, I'll go add them to the google doc with the PrCs

dspeyer · 02-22-2010, 01:46 AM

Cleaning up archery, first draft:

As you may recall, we have two disciplines which are just archery. This seems poor game design, so I tried reshuffling them into two thematic disciplines. I wound up with three (I had to add a few new maneuvers to flesh it out -- those are marked with *s). Here they are:

Falcon's Eye -- precision

Spoiler

Iron Rain -- saturation and meleishness

Spoiler

Falling Star -- mysticism

Spoiler

Thoughts?

DracoDei · 02-22-2010, 02:35 AM

Iron Rain ONLY having stances at 5th level is odd... but not necessarily bad, just means you probably don't want to go Master of One with it or even a focus on it as a discipline. With Falcon's Eye being the only one with a first level stance, some people wanting to make low level archery focused characters may be annoyed, unless Falcon's Eye is made as ubiquitous as Stone Dragon in its availability. Or we can try to come up with some more first level stances.

EDIT: I also think that a Boost and/or Strike and/or Stance based on my Flickering weapon enchantment might be good for either Iron Rain (since it produces a huge number of arrows... sort of), or Falling Star, since it is a blatantly supernatural effect... I strongly suggest the Boost or the Strike to allow full attacks with it, partially because archers lack of damage is made up for by the fact they can get full attacks easier (since they don't have to move around to change targets or close range), but also (to a lesser extent) because it increases the cool factor when you can shoot 100 arrows a turn, rather than 20 (read the actual effect of the enchantment before you decide this is overpowered). I would say the stance is the way to go, because the one thing it DOESN'T do is increase the amount of damage the attacks to. Another solution would be to make the strike dual mode, being able to be done as an attack (standard) or full-attack (full round action).

Random thought: How about a "Straight Shot" boost (or even stance) where your arrows fly true, regardless of non-solid things trying to alter their course... this would negate deflection bonuses, and (more importantly to a lot of ivory tower theorists) wind effects. You could have the level of wind effect it can negate scale with level, and it definitely shouldn't be lower than a 3rd level stance/maneuver.

P.S. (and I have been holding this in for months, if not years) Defeating the Wind Wall + Fly combo is quite possible for an archer if the GM is willing to think a little, and maybe kill a cat-girl in a good cause... if the flying wizard is on the other side of the wind-wall you move to that side and take your single attack... if he is above the wind wall you get directly under him, and the wind is just going to get it where it was going anyway...

EDIT^2: The sort of people who are fans of Artificers are going to LOVE the one that lets a character change the Bane type of their arrows with a Swift action... then again, +2 to-hit and +2d6 damage isn't THAT powerful.

Shyftir · 02-22-2010, 01:09 PM

BTW, I put Mystic Cobra up for grabs, not Sohei Adept... that's till my baby, I've got some ideas for a revision on that, to make it more interesting and better, possibly with a cooler name.

DracoDei · 02-22-2010, 01:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shyftir

BTW, I put Mystic Cobra up for grabs, not Sohei Adept... that's till my baby, I've got some ideas for a revision on that, to make it more interesting and better, possibly with a cooler name.

Err? Did I do something that made you think I thought otherwise? All I did was archive the current version of Sohei, because I couldn't shake the sneaking suspicion you might end up going in a direction that some other people might regret.

DracoDei · 02-22-2010, 04:48 PM

I tweaked Zany Dodge so if you are immune to Confusion, you instead fall prone... I might change that to just falling prone to start with.

Also, I would still like to know what people think of Falling Anvil Masters of One, and Hearthstone Vindicators (for the "* Vindicators" thread that expands Ruby Knight Vindicators out to all the other disciplines).

I also happened across some "Spy vs Spy" stuff on You-Tube (from MAD Tv), and watched some of it... it looks like it is not really suitable for inclusion in Falling Anvil, because it is just a whole spectrum of uses for Bluff and Craft(Trapmaking), rather than having the more narrowly defined repeating gags that are good for turning into maneuvers.

Shyftir · 02-22-2010, 06:47 PM

Just making sure I was being clear. And I'll post me revision in a new thread no worries.

dspeyer · 02-23-2010, 02:20 AM

Sounds like archery needs a little more filling in...

Ride the Storm -- Stance -- Iron Rain 3
You feel the movements of air and automatically adjust your shots accordingly. You are not effected by wind except as follows. Shooting into the wind decreases your range increment by 5 ft per 10 mph. Shooting with the wind increases your range by the same amount. Shooting through a wind wall counts as travelling 50 ft of distance.

Greater Phasing Arrow -- Strike -- Falling Star 5
In addition to using touch ac and ignoring dr, a greater phasing arrow ignores cover and wind effects (including wind wall). You are still effected by miss chances from not knowing your target's exact location.

I'll think of some level 1 stances later.

Saintheart · 02-23-2010, 04:16 AM

Sorry to add further to your sorrows, guys, but I thought I'd just drop a link and PEACH to my first PrC attempted with a view towards inclusion in the Age of Warriors project: the Brother of the Diamond Tusk, a PrC that's aimed at the Twin Spirit school in particular and which could be considered a sort of dwarven counterpart to the awesomeness that is the Eaglewing Striker.

Hope y'all enjoy picking it apart.

DracoDei · 02-23-2010, 01:16 PM

On the discipline extras checklist, I just made a few suggestions for what the slotted maneuver granting items might be for some of the disciplines. I am not sure if the Muhammad Ali reference fits Army of One, but as TVTropes says "The man didn't know how to speak EXCEPT in bad-ass boast." (or something like that).

EDIT: Also, did up the Subra (name subject to change), which is basically a tie-dyed leopard, infused with the power of the fey and turbo-charged with Kaleidoscopic Dream power... the turbo-charging may be a bit much (if you calculate it out they are getting up to 5 swift actions per round), but I like the way it alters the creature. Note that I only used 1st level maneuvers/stance.

Eldan · 02-24-2010, 10:32 AM

I had an idea for a discipline, but I'm neither sure if it's a good idea, nor if there isn't already something like that.

First of all, for the name, I'll choose something like "Eye of Truth" or "Hammer of Truth".
Basically, a mystical lawful discipline, focusing on combating trickery. Stances which help you see through illusions, strikes which dispel magical disguises on the target, the ability to force enemies into their true form, cast out possession...

Does that sound like a good idea, or should it be something divine instead of martial?

DracoDei · 02-24-2010, 01:19 PM

No reason you can't have "one of each", although for the divine version it would be a something other than a discipline* probably (unless you feel it best to just give them access to only one discipline with no previous martial knowledge, except maybe a single instance of Martial study).

*As you probably already know, your options are: PrC, feat, feat chain, and alternate class features.