Keychain of Creation 3: Not-a-Keyblade Understanding & Falafel-is-Awesome Prana Combo

[horngeek]

EVERYONE in Exalted, including the Yozis and the Neverborn, can be put on either side of the protagonists/antagonists axis.

I will not use the Good/Evil D&D terms, because in Exalted, they lose a lot of meaning.

[Yuki Akuma]

Originally Posted by horngeek

EVERYONE in Exalted, including the Yozis and the Neverborn, can be put on either side of the protagonists/antagonists axis.

I will not use the Good/Evil D&D terms, because in Exalted, they lose a lot of meaning.

There is a difference between a protagonist and a hero, or an antagonist and a villain.

You can have a villainous protagonist fighting a heroic antagonist. Or a villainous protagonist fighting equally villainous antagonists.

You could even have a heroic protagonist fighting heroic antagonists.

[Kyeudo]

Originally Posted by Yuki_Akuma

You can have a villainous protagonist fighting a heroic antagonist. Or a villainous protagonist fighting equally villainous antagonists.

Just watch Death Note if you don't believe!

[Aquillion]

Originally Posted by horngeek

EVERYONE in Exalted, including the Yozis and the Neverborn, can be put on either side of the protagonists/antagonists axis.

I will not use the Good/Evil D&D terms, because in Exalted, they lose a lot of meaning.

Yeah, but the original characterization of the Lunars was pretty one-sided. They came off as a bit like this:



...I'm not exaggerating. Like that, only wearing bearskins and loincloths (because they were barbarians, see.)

[Felius]

Originally Posted by Aquillion

Yeah, but the original characterization of the Lunars was pretty one-sided. They came off as a bit like this:



...I'm not exaggerating. Like that, only wearing bearskins and loincloths (because they were barbarians, see.)

O.O Please tell, what comic is this frame from?

[Gez]

Tin-Eye found only two results:
http://www.tineye.com/search/472d7a1...0a4672e243b301 (not sure this ID will work for you, depends on how long the engine keeps data in its cache I guess)

The one that seems to be the origin of the picture is not exactly work safe, and it seems it's a photoshoppery -- a strip slay, in other words.

[Green Bean]

It's actually from Stardust The Super Wizard, a Golden Age comic that has not aged well.

[Drakyn]

That's something from Stardust the Super Wizard, right? Wasn't pretty much every character in there, including Stardust himself, absolutely insane from any human perspective?

Spoiler

EDIT: Goddamned miracle-ninjas.

[horngeek]

...GRAVITY DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY.

Dear god, the rest of the comic is acceptable... but the hopeless mangling of gravity...

[Lord Raziere]

Originally Posted by Yuki_Akuma

There is a difference between a protagonist and a hero, or an antagonist and a villain.

You can have a villainous protagonist fighting a heroic antagonist. Or a villainous protagonist fighting equally villainous antagonists.

You could even have a heroic protagonist fighting heroic antagonists.

....or you can just have a protagonist and antagonist without good or evil ever entering the picture. however it quickly becomes unclear which is which though.

[Gez]

Originally Posted by horngeek

Dear god, the rest of the comic is acceptable...

No. No it's not. Which is what makes it so great.

[Ganurath]

Originally Posted by Kyeudo

Just watch Death Note if you don't believe!

L wasn't villainous, he just only had one dot in Charisma and Appearance each and none in Socialize. So, kinda like Flame, only smaller and without the killing.

[golentan]

Originally Posted by Ganurath

L wasn't villainous, he just only had one dot in Charisma and Appearance each and none in Socialize. So, kinda like Flame, only smaller and without the killing.

I read it as the "Villainous Protagonist vs. Heroic Antagonist" option that was mentioned first.

Also, Stardust. Possibly the most violent, psychopathic comic book character I've seen in years + way, way too heavy propaganda nonsense.

[spectralphoenix]

Less villainous than Light, perhaps, but he had no problem abducting and interrogating Misa for as long as it took based on some vague suspicion that she had something to do with anything.

[Jukashi]

If you were to use D&D terms, I'd say L was True Neutral. Definitely not Evil, probably not really Good - he was a decent fellow at times but too much more concerned with his goals than with people's well-being to belong on that end of the spectrum. The dedicated detective is a typically Lawful Neutral archetype, but L wasn't Lawful so, thus, he was True Neutral.

His goal was to catch the criminals that no-one else could, and didn't pay much mind to morality or ethics either way. So, TN.

[horngeek]

In Exalted terms, he was Conviction 5, not sure about the others.

[Kyeudo]

Originally Posted by Ganurath

L wasn't villainous, he just only had one dot in Charisma and Appearance each and none in Socialize. So, kinda like Flame, only smaller and without the killing.

I was referring to Light as the protagonist. Light is the only character to be in every episode of Death Note, from first until last, and half the time we're just waiting to see what Light will do to escape from L's latest plot.

[horngeek]

Actually, what do you guys think Light's Virtues would be?

I think he'd be Conviction 5, probably Compassion 1. But I'll admit, I haven't actually read the manga- I just know about the general premise and his 'kill all lawbreakers' plan.

[Ganurath]

Light: Compassion 2, Conviction 5, Temperance 3, Valor 1
L: Compassion 1, Conviction 5, Temperance 3, Valor 2
Mello: Compassion 2, Conviction 4, Temperance 1, Valor 4
Near: Compassion 1, Conviction 5, Temperance 3, Valor 2

[golentan]

Originally Posted by horngeek

Actually, what do you guys think Light's Virtues would be?

I think he'd be Conviction 5, probably Compassion 1. But I'll admit, I haven't actually read the manga- I just know about the general premise and his 'kill all lawbreakers' plan.

I think he'd need *negative* compassion if such a thing existed. His plan was to kill off all the murderers, then all the criminals, then all the lazy people. To do which he was willing to do horrible, horrible, hideous things to people who met his ideals but disagreed with him personally.

I'd put him at Compassion 1, Conviction 5, temperance 3-4, and valor 3.

He never forms any emotional bonds, is willing to murder associates, friends, and family to get his way, is single minded to his beliefs, ignores pleasures of the flesh except as a way to manipulate people (though he does give in to the death note compulsion that's not necessarily explicit canon), and the way to draw him out is to challenge him and make him act brashly in order to prove his superiority.

[spectralphoenix]

I'd give Light a low Temperance, because several times he's provoked into extremely poor decisions (killing the fake L on TV, changing his killing schedule to taunt L, etc) by plays on his pride. Temperance isn't just about sex - Light's not a very sexual person (except when the slashfic comes into play) but he doesn't have good impulse control when his particular sin is on the line.

[golentan]

Originally Posted by spectralphoenix

I'd give Light a low Temperance, because several times he's provoked into extremely poor decisions (killing the fake L on TV, changing his killing schedule to taunt L, etc) by plays on his pride. Temperance isn't just about sex - Light's not a very sexual person (except when the slashfic comes into play) but he doesn't have good impulse control when his particular sin is on the line.

It's not about the sex for me, as it is about the subversion of all his desires of the flesh to his goal. Sex, Food, a bed not made of wood, sensory perception, time, and his memories are all merely tools to be used or discarded on his path to his goal. A goal he is prepared to take years achieving. I view the incidents you're talking about as an incidence of a moderate valor: When he perceives an opponent he fights and strikes even if it's not in his best interest (valor 3: Will attack superior foe) BECAUSE THEY'RE AN OPPONENT. Combine that with his ego, and it overwhelms his normal temperance.

He also does his best to exude an air of self control and emotionlessness at all times, except when he snaps (limit break?). That's why I had him at temperance 3.

[Sanguine]

Originally Posted by golentan

It's not about the sex for me, as it is about the subversion of all his desires of the flesh to his goal. Sex, Food, a bed not made of wood, sensory perception, time, and his memories are all merely tools to be used or discarded on his path to his goal. A goal he is prepared to take years achieving. I view the incidents you're talking about as an incidence of a moderate valor: When he perceives an opponent he fights and strikes even if it's not in his best interest (valor 3: Will attack superior foe) BECAUSE THEY'RE AN OPPONENT. Combine that with his ego, and it overwhelms his normal temperance.

He also does his best to exude an air of self control and emotionlessness at all times, except when he snaps (limit break?). That's why I had him at temperance 3.

Ah but I would say based off his reaction at the end of the anime where he realized for once he actually was in trouble he couldn't get out of that he has Valor 1. I would say the killing the fake L was a successful Social Attack by L to provoke that specific action. And as for changing his killing schedule I don't remember that part but isn't it possible he just payed a point of Willpower to ignore his Virtue? After all if I was sure I would win I wouldn't have a problem gloating.

[Ganurath]

While I was mistaken as to who it was a momento of, I'm glad to see that I was correct as to what the (apparent) planned sacrifice is for Secret. Especially if it means more backstory on the Abyssal.

[Tackyhillbillu]

Does Ten Winds know Sorcery, as well as Immaculate Martial Arts?

[Ganurath]

He seems to be implying this. You don't get to be a Sidereal's sifu without being well-rounded, after all.

[Tackyhillbillu]

I guess so. Another fact for the Ten Wind's conspiracy theorists to mull over.

[Yuki Akuma]

If he does know sorcery, he only knows Terrestrial Circle sorcery... so he can't teach them to summon the really dangerous demons, anyway.

[Ganurath]

Assuming he's really Dragon-Blooded, that is.

[Kyeudo]

Originally Posted by Yuki_Akuma

If he does know sorcery, he only knows Terrestrial Circle sorcery... so he can't teach them to summon the really dangerous demons, anyway.

Second Circle Demons aren't really all that much more useful than First Circle Demons. It's only the Third Circle Demons that are truely that dangerous, and even Solars have trouble with that.