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Choose my weapon? I AM my weapon.
-Storgen the Massive, Brawler. “My Blood! He punched out all my blood!”
-Theodore, A scout for the Brotherhood of Light Unending, during his encounter with a Brawler.
The Brawler is a warrior of the oldest tradition, fighting with nothing more than the lightest of armor and their bare hands. Though he fights unarmed, there is none of the monk’s grace or skill, a Brawler fights through pure brute strength.
The Brawler
D12 Hit Die Skills: 4+int modifier at each level. (4+int mod)x4 at first level.
Skill List: Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge Local (Int), Jump (Str), Listen (Wis), Ride (Dex), Survival (Wis), Profession (Wis) Spot (Wis), Tumble (Dex) and Swim (Str).
Weapon and Armor Proficiencies: The Brawler is proficient with simple weapons and light armor (But not shields).
Improved Unarmed Strike: At 1st level, a brawler gains Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat. A brawler’s attacks may be with either fist interchangeably or even from elbows, knees, and feet. This means that a brawler may even make unarmed strikes with her hands full. There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a brawler striking unarmed. A brawler may thus apply her full Strength bonus on damage rolls for all her unarmed strikes.
Usually a brawler’s unarmed strikes deal lethal damage, but she can choose to deal nonlethal damage instead with no penalty on her attack roll. She has the same choice to deal lethal or nonlethal damage while grappling.
A brawler’s unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.
Brawler’s Fists: A Brawler deals additional damage on unarmed strikes as indicated by table: The Brawler. This is the same progression for Monk Unarmed Strike damage, and so the Monk rules can be used for smaller or larger Brawlers. Brawler's Reflexes: The Brawler's particular brand of fighting inevitably causes it's users to become more skilled than normal at avoiding blows. A Brawler gains an additional +1 dodge bonus at 2nd level, with an additional +1 bonus every 3 levels after that. Brawler Abilities: As a Brawler becomes more skilled, they develop certain techniques and specialties. At each level indicated on Table: The Brawler, a Brawler may select one of the following abilities. These abilities only function as long as the Brawler is not wearing medium or heavy armor, and is not carrying a medium or heavy load.
Spoiler
Chair, Not a weapon!: A Brawler may use an improvised weapon without penalty, this weapon deals damage as one size larger than the Brawler’s unarmed strike, but cannot be used in conjunction with other special abilities. Fearless: A Brawler gains a bonus to will saves against fear effects equal to their class level. Haymaker: A Brawler may treat their unarmed strikes as a two handed weapon. Rapid Fists: A Brawler may make an extra attack on an unarmed strike full attack, but all attacks this round are made at a -2 penalty. Improved Rapid Fist: Requires Rapid Fists, a Brawler may apply their rapid fist to any attack (So they could attack twice as a standard action), the -2 penalty still applies for any attacks they make that round. Follow Through: If a Brawler hits a target with two successive unarmed attacks as part of a full attack action, he may make an extra attack at the attack bonus of the last attack to hit. This ability only functions once a round. Stunning Fist: The Brawler gains the Stunning Fist feat, usable a number of times per day equal to their Brawler level/2. The save DC=10+1/2 class level + Strength modifier. Adrenaline Rush: For one round after a Brawler defeats an opponent in combat, the Brawler cannot die or be knocked unconscious. They are not treated as being Disabled at 0 hit points , or dying when below -1. . Brutish Tactics: The Brawler gains Improved Grapple and Improved Bull Rush as bonus feats. Cunning Tactics: The Brawler gains Improved Trip and Improved Disarm as bonus feats. Dirty Fighting: As a standard action, or as part of a full attack, you may sacrifice a normal attack in exchange for a dirty fighting check. You make the attack and damage rolls as normal, but the attack deals no damage. Instead, the target must succeed on a fortitude save (DC 5+damage that would have been dealt) or be treated as flat footed for 1 round. Uncanny Dodge: The Brawler gains Uncanny Dodge (As the Barbarian ability). Improved Uncanny Dodge: The Brawler gains improved uncanny dodge. They must already have Uncanny dodge, either from another class, or from the Brawler ability. Property Damage: The Brawler gains a +4 bonus on strength checks or damage rolls to break inanimate objects. Unstoppable Charge: The Brawler gains a +4 bonus to armor class against any attacks of opportunity he provokes by charging or bull rushing. In addition, the Brawler may charge over uneven terrain. Shoving Charge: Requires Unstoppable Charge, Improved Bull Rush The Brawler may shove opponents or allies out of the way while making a charge. Treat this as a bull rush check against each opponent, in the Brawler’s path, if the Brawler wins a check, the opponent in question is shoved out of the Brawler’s path, one square to the left or right, whichever is unoccupied. If both squares are unoccupied, it’s the Brawler’s choice. If neither square is available, the target falls prone in their current square.
These bull rush attempts provoke attacks of opportunities as normal. Madman’s Charge: Requires Unstoppable Charge. As a full round action, the brawler can move up to double his speed in any direction. He can make one attack on each enemy he threatens during this movement at his full base attack bonus. This ability has all of the terrain restrictions a charge attack has, and the bonuses from Unstoppable Charge apply to this ability. This ability is not, however, a charge attack for the purposes of valorous weapons and the like. You cannot combine this ability with Corkscrew Charge.
Constant Sway: The Brawler can take a 5ft step while making an attack. The Brawler must threaten the target of the attack during the entire move. I.E. The brawler could not step away from a target. He can use this ability anytime he makes an attack action and it does not count against the number of 5ft steps he can make per round.
Big Stepper: Whenever the brawler takes a 5ft step he may take a 10ft step instead.
Corkscrew Charge: The Brawler does not have to move in a straight line while charging.
Sucker Punch: Requires Dirty Fighting. A Brawler’s unarmed strikes deals double damage against flat footed opponents.
Beatdown: Requires Rapid Fist or Follow Through, if a Brawler hits an opponent with an unarmed strike as part of a full attack, any subsequent attacks he makes that round deal an additional 1d6 damage, this stacks for multiple hits as part of the same action.
Float like a Butterfly: The Brawler Gains Dodge and Mobility as Bonus Feats.
Injury to Insult: Requires Cunning Tactics. Any time a Brawler successfully trips or disarms an opponent, they may make an attack at their full attack bonus. This stacks with Improved Trip.
Even the Field: Requires Cunning Tactics, when fighting defensively, a Brawler may attempt to Disarm any opponents that attack him. If the Disarm check is successful, the attack is negated.
Kick em while they're down: A Brawler deals double damage against Prone opponents.
Ringing Ears: As a standard action, a Brawler may make an unarmed attack. If this hits, the opponent must make a DC (10+damage dealt) Fortitude save or be deafened for 1 round.
Close and Personal: Anytime a Brawler enters an opponents square (to make a Grapple check, a Bull Rush check or to try to pass through) they may make an attack of opportunity against that opponent.
Artful Barrage: A Brawler may make an Artful Barrage instead of a Full Attack. Each attack is made at the Brawler's full attack bonus, however, if a Brawler misses on any of the attacks they lose the rest of the attacks for that round. This ability stacks with Rapid Fist (the -2 penalty still applies to each attack), Beatdown, and Follow Through.
Candy from a Baby: Requires Dirty Fighting .A Brawler gains a +4 bonus on grapple, disarm, trip, and bull rush checks against flat footed or stunned opponents.
Supernatural Brawler Abilities: The bravado and spirit necessary to become a Brawler impresses a variety of warrior deities who lend the Brawler power , granting them special abilities. The Brawler does not seek out this power, and it is not contingent on the Brawler following a code or working for the deity in question (The brawler may not even know which Deity is granting them this power). A Brawler may select a supernatural Brawler ability at each level indicated on Table: The Brawler.
Spoiler
Flesh over Steel: A Brawler’s unarmed strikes are treated as adamantine for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. Devil Puncher: A Brawler’s unarmed strikes are treated as Cold Iron for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. Werewolf Boxer: A Brawler’s unarmed strikes are treated as Silver for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. Magic Hands: A Brawler’s unarmed strikes are treated as Magic for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. Easy Patient: Any healing effects on a brawler are automatically maximized, though only for the brawler (So a Mass Cure Light Wounds would be maximized for the Brawler, but not for anybody else). Dress Wearing Pansy!: A Brawler gains Spell Resistance equal to 8+ their current Brawler level. Ghost Buster: The Brawler's unarmed Strikes are treated as being Ghost Touch for the purpose of hitting incorporeal targets. A Fist for Good: The Brawler's unarmed strikes are treated as being Good aligned for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. The Brawler must be of Good alignment to take this ability. The Hand of Evil:The Brawler's unarmed strikes are treated as being Evil aligned for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. The Brawler must be of Evil alignment to take this ability. The Long arm of the Law: The Brawler's unarmed strikes are treated as being Lawfully aligned for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. The Brawler must be of Lawful alignment to take this ability.
Unreasonable Assault: The Brawler's unarmed strikes are treated as being Chaoticly aligned for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. The Brawler must be of Chaotic alignment to take this ability.
Speak Softly: At second level a Brawler may use their Strength modifier instead of their Charisma modifier for Intimidate Checks. Mighty Boast: Three times a day, a Brawler may psych themselves up with a Boast as a swift action. This boast gives them a bonus on attack and damage rolls equal to their class level/3. This bonus lasts for one minute, or until the Brawler fails to deal damage for two consecutive rounds. Hulking Roar: A 7th level Brawler can, as a swift action, let out a mighty bellow or proclamation. This roar can be heard over nearly any amount of noise, effectively making it a DC -50 listen check to hear him. This bellow can be used to make intimidate checks on all opponents in a 30ft radius, or just to be heard over a loud scuffle. Subtle Pump: At 9th level the Brawler gains the ability to intimidate with just a glance. Whenever the Brawler successfully intimidates a target they must make a sense motive check against the Brawler’s intimidate check or else think that the brawler wasn’t even trying to intimidate them. This doubles any penalties given by being intimidated and intimidated foes do not become unfriendly after the duration of the effect ends. Any onlookers that may also make a sense motive check against the brawler’s intimidate check. Failure means they do not notice that the brawler actively intimidated the target. Massive Brute: At 11th level a Brawler learns how best to use their bulk. They are treated as being one size category larger in any situation it would benefit them. However, this does not let them wield larger size weapons or increase their unarmed strike damage. This does not stack with Powerful Build. Juggernaut: At 13th level the Brawler becomes immune to Death Effects. Boistrous Nature: At level 17th the Brawler can use his Mighty Boast as often as he desires. Furthermore, whenever he uses Mighty Boast he may make an intimidate check as a free action."
Champion: At 19th level the Brawler has become a living legend. His face is scarred with the marks of a thousand battles, and his name is whispered in taverns across the world. Inkeepers proudly polish the dents his fists make in the walls, placing signs outside their establishments stating that the Brawler once fought there. The Brawler gains Frightful Presence(DC 10+1/2 Character Level+ Charisma Modifier), activated whenever the Brawler attacks, uses their Mighty Boast, or charges. Foes who fail the save DC by more than 8 become panicked for 3d6 rounds, foes who fail the save by less than 8 become shaken for 3d6 rounds. Foes who succeed are immune to the Brawler’s frightful presence for 24 hours.
Feat: Extra Brawler Ability
Prerequisite: You must have at least 2 Brawler abilities.
Benefit: You gain an additional Brawler ability.
Special: You may take this feat multiple times, selecting a different ability each time.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dsurion
I don't know if you've noticed, but pretty much everything BRC posts is full of awesome.
Quote:
Originally Posted by chiasaur11
So, Astronaut, War Hero, or hideous Mantis Man, hop to it! The future of humanity is in your capable hands and or terrifying organic scythes.
Very fun class idea. I also appreciate the build-your-own makeup of it, though I have a few minor issues.
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Adrenaline Rush: A Brawler gains temporary hit points equal to half their brawler level (Round down) every time they defeat an opponent of CR equal or greater to the brawlers ECL-2. These hit points last for one minute.
Is pretty bad. Consider; 10 bonus hp at level 20 for knocking out an opponent who likely does a few hundred points of damage in a single attack easily. Or 2 bonus HP per opponent at level 4.
Personally, I'd offer this: Adrenaline Rush: A Brawler gains fast healing equal to half their brawler level (round down) whenever they defeat an opponent of CR equal to or greater than the brawler's ECL-2. This effect lasts one minute and does not stack, but each additional opponent dropped resets the duration.
The benefit of this ability does not apply if you are above 75% of your maximum HP, though you will still activate it.
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Dirty Fighting: ...
This is awesome, primarily because it allows you to render an opponent flatfooted in the middle of a full attack.
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Ghostly Strike: ...
Might I suggest renaming this Ghost Bruiser or similar, to keep in line with the other irreverently-named supernatural brawler abilities?
'S a good class. Kinda helps remove some the weaknesses of the Monk class- incompatible abilities, MAD, and uncustomizability namely. (although all 3 physical skills are needed, however it's the same for most melee classes). Also the higher BAB progression is a good thing. I'm replacing monk with this if I ever play a game of 3.5. (It's my hobby, but I've never actually played or DM'ed a game.) I especially like how you can wear light armor: One of the monk's weaknesses, I feel, is its lack of magic arms and armor. I'd put this in tier 4 with rogues and barbarians; just where a non-magic-or-psionics-using class should be, built properly.
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That whale is going to die, and it's Fullbladder's fault.
Ghostly Strike Renamed. Also, I added some more supernatural abilities for overcoming alignment based DR.
As for Adrenaline Rush, I don't know about giving them actual Fast Healing, that sounds a little supernatural for a regular brawler ability (The brawler kills somebody, and then the gash in their side closes?) It's supposed to be more "I beat somebody, I feel awesome, RAH!".
My inspiration for this class was thinking "Man, I want to play a monk, too bad they suck". Then I realized I didn't want to play a monk. In fact, few people who want to play a monk actually want to play a monk (as in a semi-mystic kung fu master). What they (or at least I) want to play is somebody who can punch a dragon to death.
The weakness of the Monk class is that it's really unfocused, it's class features don't work together, instead they're just abunch of things that WoTC imagined a semi mystic kung fu master would have.
With the Brawler my goal was to focus all his class features towards one goal, beating the everloving snot out of things. I think I succeeded.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dsurion
I don't know if you've noticed, but pretty much everything BRC posts is full of awesome.
Quote:
Originally Posted by chiasaur11
So, Astronaut, War Hero, or hideous Mantis Man, hop to it! The future of humanity is in your capable hands and or terrifying organic scythes.
I've actually been looking for a decent unarmed class that isn't based around some kind of eastern lore. It seems Wizards of the Coast believe the Japanese invented the punch. I like this class because it lets me play a character more like Beowulf, who simply ripped a monster's arm off and beat it to death with it, rather than using his Zen wisdom.
Considering they're pretty much a frontline brawler but only have light armor, I'd keep their hit die at d12. Even the barbarian gets medium armor. The brawler just depends more on his ability to take hits and less on armor to outright deflect it.
I've actually been looking for a decent unarmed class that isn't based around some kind of eastern lore. It seems Wizards of the Coast believe the Japanese invented the punch. I like this class because it lets me play a character more like Beowulf, who simply ripped a monster's arm off and beat it to death with it, rather than using his Zen wisdom.
Considering they're pretty much a frontline brawler but only have light armor, I'd keep their hit die at d12. Even the barbarian gets medium armor. The brawler just depends more on his ability to take hits and less on armor to outright deflect it.
Thanks. And yeah, as it's written, the Brawler dosn't have many ways to prevent him/herself from taking damage. He only get's light armor, he needs high Str and Con scores, so he can't sink everything into Dex. He's expected to be on the frontlines, so he can't simply avoid enemies if he wants to be effective. His reflex saves arn't too good either, so he's vulnerable to alot of blasty magics(of course, Dress Wearing Pansey helps against that). Basically, he survives fights by having enough hit points to endure any attacks thrown his way.
Which is kind of what I was going for here. The guy who, no matter what you do to him, simply WILL NOT STOP until he has reduced you to a red smear on the dungeon walls. This is also the reason for the "Easy Patient" Supernatural ability, They have alot of hit points, and they will be taking alot of damage. A Brawler who takes Easy Patient is going to be able to survive that much longer under concentrated attack.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dsurion
I don't know if you've noticed, but pretty much everything BRC posts is full of awesome.
Quote:
Originally Posted by chiasaur11
So, Astronaut, War Hero, or hideous Mantis Man, hop to it! The future of humanity is in your capable hands and or terrifying organic scythes.
As for Adrenaline Rush, I don't know about giving them actual Fast Healing, that sounds a little supernatural for a regular brawler ability (The brawler kills somebody, and then the gash in their side closes?) It's supposed to be more "I beat somebody, I feel awesome, RAH!".
That was actually specifically why I added the stipulation that it maxes out at 75% of max HP and doesn't stack up. I don't really feel that such a small amount of temporary HP is going to help, where as fast healing potentially grants you between 12 and 60 hp spread out over the course of a minute. Just enough to keep you chugging along, bruising through hordes of baddies like it's no big deal, when you're rocking your battle rhythm.
I didn't think it appropriate to give him something that'd cover life-altering (see: -ending) injuries at all, and he should still be looking for a medic come the end of combat, but something small and useful to mirror that very same 'I Feel AWESOME!' effect you were going for, in a simple, preexisting mechanic.
Ultimately though, your class. So do what you feel is best. Maybe a later level 'Walk it Off' supernatural brawler ability along the same lines instead?
Nice class – I approve.
Heheh, Ghost Buster…
Maybe the Adrenaline rush can be tied to a Crit? Every time you Crit an opponent, you get temporary HP equal to the amount of damage you dealt? Seems to fit the idea of, "I just punched him in the gut! I'm awesome!" except less likely to give you a boost the instant you end the battle.
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Quote Of The Week Whenever I Feel Like Updating It (last updated 1/17/12)
Spoiler
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phase
That guy was badass! He was like, "Oh! Oh, you're gonna try to Chuck Norris me, I'll just Chuck Norris you!" Unfortunately, I am the best Chuck Norris since Chuck Norris.
Which is saying something, considering that Chuck Norris... was Chuck Norris.
Why the dead levels? Having a dead level at 18th in particular wouldn't be much fun at all and the dead level at 6th basically screams "take a prestige class".
Fighter bonus feats are a possibility, although here are my suggestions:
Lvl 2 - A non-combat ability befitting a brawler. I'm not sure what that is, but right now the class doesn't help non-combat in any way. Some games are more non-combat than others, so it would be nice for the class to give them something to do when people aren't getting all of their blood punched out.
lvl 6 - Another non-combat ability. Not just an improvement on the level 2 ability unless that ability was really general.
lvl 14 - A combat ability. The brawler has some awesome moves (Str-based stunning fist!?), but he isn't dealing enough damage at this level.
lvl 18 - A player that reaches this level is either heading into Epic or about to retire. This ability should be useful to one or both of those groups. Also, anyone who reaches this point didn't take >3 levels of a prestige class*! Keep that in mind. Too many classes don't give me any reason to stick with them.
*Or is epic.
Last edited by Magikeeper : 04-19-2010 at 08:30 PM.
Why the dead levels? Having a dead level at 18th in particular wouldn't be much fun at all and the dead level at 6th basically screams "take a prestige class".
Fighter bonus feats are a possibility, although here are my suggestions:
Lvl 2 - A non-combat ability befitting a brawler. I'm not sure what that is, but right now the class doesn't help non-combat in any way. Some games are more non-combat than others, so it would be nice for the class to give them something to do when people aren't getting all of their blood punched out.
lvl 6 - Another non-combat ability. Not just an improvement on the level 2 ability unless that ability was really general.
lvl 14 - A combat ability. The brawler has some awesome moves (Str-based stunning fist!?), but he isn't dealing enough damage at this level.
lvl 18 - A player that reaches this level is either heading into Epic or about to retire. This ability should be useful to one or both of those groups. Also, anyone who reaches this point didn't take >3 levels of a prestige class*! Keep that in mind. Too many classes don't give me any reason to stick with them.
*Or is epic.
All I can really think about that fits the flavor of the class is a Str bonus to indimidate checks, which some people allow anyway.
How about this for Adrenaline Rush
For one round after a Brawler defeats an opponent in combat, the Brawler cannot die or be knocked unconscious. They are not treated as being Disabled at 0 hit points , or dying when below -1.
It seems a little powerful, but since the effect ends unless they finish off an opponent each round, I think it's okay.
Also, currently they lose class features in medium or heavy armor. I'm considering dropping that, and just making them spend extra feats if they want better armor proficiency.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dsurion
I don't know if you've noticed, but pretty much everything BRC posts is full of awesome.
Quote:
Originally Posted by chiasaur11
So, Astronaut, War Hero, or hideous Mantis Man, hop to it! The future of humanity is in your capable hands and or terrifying organic scythes.
Hrm
Second Level Speak Softly: A Brawler may add their Strength bonus to indimidate checks.
6th level: Mighty Boast: Three times a day a Brawler may psych themselves up with a boast. They gain a +3 bonus on attack and damage rolls for one minute or until they spend two consecutive rounds without dealing damage.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dsurion
I don't know if you've noticed, but pretty much everything BRC posts is full of awesome.
Quote:
Originally Posted by chiasaur11
So, Astronaut, War Hero, or hideous Mantis Man, hop to it! The future of humanity is in your capable hands and or terrifying organic scythes.
Hrm
6th level: Mighty Boast: Three times a day a Brawler may psych themselves up with a boast. They gain a +3 bonus on attack and damage rolls for one minute or until they spend two consecutive rounds without dealing damage.
Hmm... could the bonus increase by 1 every 4 additional levels?
I guess the 14th level could give pounce. Trying to think of a better idea.
The 18th level could grant both mettle and evasion! Or rather, an ability that works like both of them combined. It is 18th level after all.
I like the new rush. Although it can be abused by punching a bag of rats while walking through the lava. An encounter limit could work. Say, once per encounter. That would more than enough for an ability that makes you immortal for 1 round.
I think fearless should just make you immune to fear. I can't see someone taking the current version over the other abilities.
Last edited by Magikeeper : 04-19-2010 at 11:12 PM.
Maybe at 14th level they get immunity to death effects. I guess that fits, force opponents to whittle down their hit points instead of just hitting them with a Finger of Death.
Also, the image of a big burly guy walking waist deep in lava, punching a Bag of Rats every six seconds is too awesome for me to fix that loophole (Though hopefully DM's using this will stop it).
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dsurion
I don't know if you've noticed, but pretty much everything BRC posts is full of awesome.
Quote:
Originally Posted by chiasaur11
So, Astronaut, War Hero, or hideous Mantis Man, hop to it! The future of humanity is in your capable hands and or terrifying organic scythes.
Assuming I recall correctly, one can already initiate a grapple at the end of a charge: it's an attack action.
Also, this class seems really cool, though it feels like it's missing something. Oh, duh, a capstone.
Recommendation for abilities: Make unarmed strikes one-handed weapons at first level, as opposed to light weapons, and at some point change them to two-handed?
Assuming I recall correctly, one can already initiate a grapple at the end of a charge: it's an attack action.
Also, this class seems really cool, though it feels like it's missing something. Oh, duh, a capstone.
Recommendation for abilities: Make unarmed strikes one-handed weapons at first level, as opposed to light weapons, and at some point change them to two-handed?
Beatcha to it. The Haymaker ability does that.
also, starting a grapple is a melee attack roll, but nowhere does it say it's an attack action.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dsurion
I don't know if you've noticed, but pretty much everything BRC posts is full of awesome.
Quote:
Originally Posted by chiasaur11
So, Astronaut, War Hero, or hideous Mantis Man, hop to it! The future of humanity is in your capable hands and or terrifying organic scythes.
Beatcha to it. The Haymaker ability does that.
also, starting a grapple is a melee attack roll, but nowhere does it say it's an attack action.
It does mention that you can attempt to start a grapple multiple times if you have a high base attack bonus, indicating that it simply takes the place of a normal attack. I also think there's something about such a charge+grapple combo in the FAQ, and the answer was the +2 from the charge applies to the touch attack to initiate the grapple, not to the grapple check. I'll go check...
Ah, here we go. Page 141 of the Player's Handbook, on the table, Grapple has a superscript 7, just like Disarm and Trip. The seven indicates: "These attack forms substitute for a melee attack, not an action. As melee attacks, they can be used in an attack or charge action, one or more times in a full attack action, or even as an attack of opportunity." (Emphasis mine).
So yes, a grapple attack may be made at the end of a charge.
This is outright terrible. It's a monk with a worse flurry and a few other abilities, but decent hit die and BAB. At best, it's useful as a one level dip to force enemies to be flat footed, but really, this thing has no combat utility.
It's also worth a dip as a fighter, just because you can grab two feats in one level (clever/brutish tactics) or the charge ability so that you can have your ubercharger be less powerful.
As far as a non one level dip class, though, this is only stronger than the monk due to more HP and better BAB.
This is outright terrible. It's a monk with a worse flurry and a few other abilities, but decent hit die and BAB. At best, it's useful as a one level dip to force enemies to be flat footed, but really, this thing has no combat utility.
It's also worth a dip as a fighter, just because you can grab two feats in one level (clever/brutish tactics) or the charge ability so that you can have your ubercharger be less powerful.
As far as a non one level dip class, though, this is only stronger than the monk due to more HP and better BAB.
Okay, I don't pretend to be an infallible expert on class power, and my purpose here wasn't to make the ultimate powerhouse, but I'm going to have to argue this point.
First of all better BAB and more HP are big things, especially since one of the main weaknesses of the monk is their ability to make five attacks a round without hitting anything. Secondly, you're forgetting about their ability to wear armor, or the extra abilities, many of which I'm pretty sure Monk's don't get, or get at a point way too late to be useful. Not to mention that Brawlers only really need to worry about Str, Con, and Dex (And less than Monks do on all counts, and most all the Melee classes need to worry about those stats), instead of Str, Con, Dex, Wis, Cha, and maybe Int.
As for "No Combat Utility", where do you get that? How do you define Combat Utility. Do I need to give them a Save-or-Die DC 50 with every hit? The ability to auto-grapple every enemy within 30 feet at no penalty?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dsurion
I don't know if you've noticed, but pretty much everything BRC posts is full of awesome.
Quote:
Originally Posted by chiasaur11
So, Astronaut, War Hero, or hideous Mantis Man, hop to it! The future of humanity is in your capable hands and or terrifying organic scythes.
This is outright terrible. It's a monk with a worse flurry and a few other abilities, but decent hit die and BAB. At best, it's useful as a one level dip to force enemies to be flat footed, but really, this thing has no combat utility.
To be more specific:
Powerful status attacks <check>
Defensive abilities (once additions are made) <check>
Able to kill actually foes past early levels <Not Check>
That's why I suggested a combat ability at level 14. As in, an ability that helps you kill people. Mighty boast will help at lower levels and remain useful if it scales like I suggested, but Milsk has a point.
I would say have the level 14 ability be the immunity, the level 18 ability be the super evasion+mettle ability, level 6 be scaling boast, and level 2 be the STR intimidate for now and to add more higher-level abilities to the brawler list.
Examples:
Greater Rapid Fists: Requires Rapid Fists. The brawler can use his rapid strike as part of any attack, although he still take a -2 penalty on all attacks made that round. For example, he could attack twice as a standard action. This ability stacks with the Snap Kick feat, although the total penalty would be -4. This penalty stacks with itself every time a brawler uses it in the same round.
Crazy Charge: Requires Unstoppable Charge or Shoving Charge or Tackle. As a fullround action, the brawler can move up to double his speed in any direction. He can make one attack on each enemy he threatens during this movement at his full base attack bonus. This ability has all of the terrain restrictions a charge attack has, and the bonuses from Unstoppable Charge apply to this ability. This ability is not, however, a charge attack for the purposes of valorous weapons and the like.
Blood Beater: Requires Haymaker or Brutish Tactics – As a standard action the brawler can make a single unarmed strike attack that deals double damage. Living opponents must make a fort save (DC 10 + ½ class level + str) or be sickened for 1 round.
Last edited by Magikeeper : 04-20-2010 at 03:07 PM.
[quote=BRC;8339434]Okay, I don't pretend to be an infallible expert on class power, and my purpose here wasn't to make the ultimate powerhouse, but I'm going to have to argue this point.
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First of all better BAB and more HP are big things, especially since one of the main weaknesses of the monk is their ability to make five attacks a round without hitting anything.
No, one of the main weaknesses of the monk is the fact they have wildly disparate class abilities that don't benefit each other, making them essentially a medium BAB class with no real features. Yeah, medium BAB hurts them, but having full BAB wouldn't make them any better.
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Secondly, you're forgetting about their ability to wear armor, or the extra abilities, many of which I'm pretty sure Monk's don't get, or get at a point way too late to be useful. Not to mention that Brawlers only really need to worry about Str, Con, and Dex (And less than Monks do on all counts, and most all the Melee classes need to worry about those stats), instead of Str, Con, Dex, Wis, Cha, and maybe Int.
Yes, monks are more MAD and have less defensive options. That doesn't mean that this class has *any* combat power, at all.
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As for "No Combat Utility", where do you get that? How do you define Combat Utility. Do I need to give them a Save-or-Die DC 50 with every hit? The ability to auto-grapple every enemy within 30 feet at no penalty?
No, they simply need to be relevant in combat. Their abilities do nothing that you can't get with a fighter, either through using different weapons (two handed attacks), or actual feats, with a few that are only useful if you invest a ton of feats into doing one specific thing, which you don't have the feats for (charging through people).
Simply put, this class has *no* way to do any relevant amount of damage. Sure, it's got HP and armor, but it has no way to move around in combat, is less capable of forcing status effects than a fighter, deals less damage than the fighter, and many of its abilities (such as making the enemy flat footed) seem only useful if you dip to grab them. If you want a class that is actually relevant in combat, (and by that I mean more than a meatshield that occasionally connects for low damage), look at the warblade, or at the very least, what a semi optimized chain tripper/ubercharger can do; this can't even match the extremely limited tricks a fighter has, so it's hardly worth it.
To put it in simple terms: This class has almost no class features, and what it gets are basically a very limited, very diverse (which is bad; you need to focus on one thing, not be slightly better than terrible at ten) list of fighter bonus feats and a few non synergistic unique bonuses that are far better for dipping than for staying in the class (flat footed for a rogue 19/brawler 1 is awesome, flat footed for a brawler 20 is a slightly better chance to hit at the cost of losing one fourth of his damage).
Powerful status attacks <check>
Defensive abilities (once additions are made) <check>
Able to kill actually foes past early levels <Not Check>
That's why I suggested a combat ability at level 14. As in, an ability that helps you kill people. Mighty boast will help at lower levels and remain useful if it scales like I suggested, but Milsk has a point.
I would say have the level 14 ability be the immunity, the level 18 ability be the super evasion+mettle ability, level 6 be scaling boast, and level 2 be the STR intimidate for now and to add more higher-level abilities to the brawler list.
Examples:
Greater Rapid Fists: Requires Rapid Fists. The brawler can use his rapid strike as part of any attack, although he still take a -2 penalty on all attacks made that round. For example, he could attack twice as a standard action. This ability stacks with the Snap Kick feat, although the total penalty would be -4. This penalty stacks with itself every time a brawler uses it in the same round.
Crazy Charge: Requires Unstoppable Charge or Shoving Charge or Tackle. As a fullround action, the brawler can move up to double his speed in any direction. He can make one attack on each enemy he threatens during this movement at his full base attack bonus. This ability has all of the terrain restrictions a charge attack has, and the bonuses from Unstoppable Charge apply to this ability. This ability is not, however, a charge attack for the purposes of valorous weapons and the like.
Blood Beater: Requires Haymaker or Brutish Tactics – As a standard action the brawler can make a single unarmed strike attack that deals double damage. Living opponents must make a fort save (DC 10 + ½ class level + str) or be sickened for 1 round.
Here were the 6th, 14th, and 18th level abilities I had in mind, but they could be changed. Mighty Boast: Three times a day, a Brawler may psych themselves up with a Boast as a swift action. This boast gives them a bonus on attack and damage rolls equal to their class level/3. This bonus lasts for one minute, or until the Brawler fails to deal damage for two consecutive rounds. Juggernaught: At 14th level the Brawler becomes immune to Death Effects. Champion: At 18th level the Brawler has become a living legend. His face is scarred with the marks of a thousand battles, and his name is whispered in taverns across the world. Inkeepers proudly polish the dents his fists make in the walls, placing signs outside their establishments stating that the Brawler once fought there. The Brawler gains Frightful Presence(DC 10+1/2 Character Level+ Charisma Modifier), activated whenever the Brawler attacks, uses their Mighty Boast, or charges. Foes who fail the save DC by more than 8 become panicked for 3d6 rounds, foes who fail the save by less than 8 become shaken for 3d6 rounds. Foes who succeed are immune to the Brawler’s frightful presence for 24 hours.
But I think I get what you're saying. More abilities that directly help the Brawler take down high-level, high HP foes, or give them a Focus.
Here are some ideas I had, not sure how well they work. What I think I might go for is a class based around neutralizing opponents somehow (Tripping/Disarming them for example), then following through with hefty damage. Sucker Punch: Requires Dirty Fighting. A Brawler deals double damage against flat footed opponents. Beatdown: Requires Rapid Fist, Follow Through, if a Brawler hits an opponent with an unarmed strike as part of a full attack, any subsequent attacks he makes that round deal an additional 1d6 damage, this stacks for multiple hits as part of the same action. Mobility: Maybe as a Bonus Feat(not a Brawler ability). It would fit with the flavor of the class. Injury to Insult: Requires Cunning Tactics. Any time a Brawler successfully trips or disarms an opponent, they may make an attack at their full attack bonus. Even the Field: Requires Cunning Tactics, when fighting defensively, a Brawler may attempt to Disarm any opponents that attack him. Kick em while they're down: A Brawler deals double damage against Prone opponents. Massive Brute (Maybe give them to this at 10th level) The Brawler is treated as being one size category larger for the purpose of Trip, Grapple, and Bull Rush attempts. Ringing Ears: Requires Haymaker. As a standard action, a Brawler may make an unarmed attack. If this hits, the opponent must make a DC (10+damage dealt) Fortitude save or be deafened for 1 round. Close and Personal: Anytime a Brawler enters an opponents square (to make a Grapple check, a Bull Rush check or to try to pass through) they may make an attack of opportunity against that opponent. Artful Barrage: A Brawler may make an Artful Barrage instead of a Full Attack. Each attack is made at the Brawler's full attack bonus, however, if a Brawler misses on any of the attacks they lose the rest of the attacks for that round. This ability stacks with Rapid Fist, Improved Rapid Fist(the -2 penalty still applies to each attack), Beatdown, and Follow Through. Candy from a Baby Requires Dirty Fighting .A Brawler gains a +4 bonus on grapple, disarm, trip, and bull rush checks against flat footed or stunned opponents.
Edit: What I might try to do is give the Brawler 3 clear directions they can go, and try to focus his abilities on supporting those things: Charges, Full Attacks, and status effects (Tripping, disarming, bull rushing, grappling).
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dsurion
I don't know if you've noticed, but pretty much everything BRC posts is full of awesome.
Quote:
Originally Posted by chiasaur11
So, Astronaut, War Hero, or hideous Mantis Man, hop to it! The future of humanity is in your capable hands and or terrifying organic scythes.
I added stuff to the below quote in italics. Also you mention “cunning tactics” when that ability does not exist. I assume you meant “clever tactics”. You also mention improved rapid fists which don’t exist either (unless you meant the greater rapid fists I suggested… improved would work better name wise actually…)
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But I think I get what you're saying. More abilities that directly help the Brawler take down high-level, high HP foes, or give them a Focus.
Here are some ideas I had, not sure how well they work. What I think I might go for is a class based around neutralizing opponents somehow (Tripping/Disarming them for example), then following through with hefty damage.
Sucker Punch: Requires Dirty Fighting. A Brawler deals double damage against flat footed opponents. I like this.
Beatdown: Requires Rapid Fist, Follow Through, if a Brawler hits an opponent with an unarmed strike as part of a full attack, any subsequent attacks he makes that round deal an additional 1d6 damage, this stacks for multiple hits as part of the same action. This is good. I’m not sure it needs two requirements so maybe “Rapid fist or Follow Through”. I like the idea of each brawler having different yet related ability combinations. Let’s see, with only 1 requirement a PC could have this at level 3. He could make 2 attacks and deal +1d6 on the second. That’s fine at level 3. High level brawlers would want both prereqs anyway.
Mobility: Maybe as a Bonus Feat(not a Brawler ability). It would fit with the flavor of the class. Perhaps: “The brawler gains dodge and mobility as bonus feats.” This would become a common dip, but a bunch of other abilities are dip-able so I guess it is okay. Maybe. Might need a requirement.
Injury to Insult: Requires Cunning Tactics. Any time a Brawler successfully trips or disarms an opponent, they may make an attack at their full attack bonus. ”This ability stacks with improved trip.” Note that if you trip someone with Kewtd you are going to get 2 attacks that deal 2x damage. Which I think is okay for a 3 ability combo, personally.
Even the Field: Requires Cunning Tactics, when fighting defensively, a Brawler may attempt to Disarm any opponents that attack him. Add “if they are successfully disarmed, the attack fails.” Otherwise okay.
Kick em while they're down: A Brawler deals double damage against Prone opponents. Good.
Massive Brute (Maybe give them to this at 10th level) The Brawler is treated as being one size category larger for the purpose of Trip, Grapple, and Bull Rush attempts. Yeah, just giving them the “Powerful Build” trait at level 10 would be fine.
Ringing Ears: Requires Haymaker. As a standard action, a Brawler may make an unarmed attack. If this hits, the opponent must make a DC (10+damage dealt) Fortitude save or be deafened for 1 round. This doesn’t do much in combat unless you hit them in the surprise round (penalty to initiative). I don’t think this needs a requirement. If at any point you need to cut something this is a good candidate.
Close and Personal: Anytime a Brawler enters an opponents square (to make a Grapple check, a Bull Rush check or to try to pass through) they may make an attack of opportunity against that opponent. Interesting.
Artful Barrage: A Brawler may make an Artful Barrage instead of a Full Attack. Each attack is made at the Brawler's full attack bonus, however, if a Brawler misses on any of the attacks they lose the rest of the attacks for that round. This ability stacks with Rapid Fist, Improved Rapid Fist(the -2 penalty still applies to each attack), Beatdown, and Follow Through. This is very powerful, but not at low levels so I can understand the lack of a requirement. Nice ability.
Candy from a Baby Requires Dirty Fighting .A Brawler gains a +4 bonus on grapple, disarm, trip, and bull rush checks against flat footed or stunned opponents. Nice ability
I have some ideas to go with the mobility ability:
Constant Sway: The Brawler can take a 5ft step while making an attack. The Brawler must threaten the target of the attack during the entire move. I.E. The brawler could not step away from a target. He can use this ability any number of times per round and it does not count against the number of 5ft steps he can make per round.
Big Stepper: Whenever the brawler takes a 5ft step he may take a 10ft step instead. Yes, with constant sway he could step through a medium sized target. Also combos with Close And Personal.
Corkscrew Charge: The Brawler does not have to move in a straight line while charging.
Clearly by the time we are all done the brawler will have 700 abilities that cover every form of unarmed combat. And there will be much rejoicing.
On another note, I think the Brawler could gain a Brawler ability ever odd level. I mean, in addition to the supernatural ones. If only to keep a constant pattern. I like constant patterns… although I suppose that is a personal preference. At this rate the brawler will have way more than 10 awesome abilities.
Last edited by Magikeeper : 04-20-2010 at 08:15 PM.
I added stuff to the below quote in italics. Also you mention “cunning tactics” when that ability does not exist. I assume you meant “clever tactics”. You also mention improved rapid fists which don’t exist either (unless you meant the greater rapid fists I suggested… improved would work better name wise actually…)
I have some ideas to go with the mobility ability:
Constant Sway: The Brawler can take a 5ft step while making an attack. The Brawler must threaten the target of the attack during the entire move. I.E. The brawler could not step away from a target. He can use this ability any number of times per round and it does not count against the number of 5ft steps he can make per round.
Big Stepper: Whenever the brawler takes a 5ft step he may take a 10ft step instead. Yes, with constant sway he could step through a medium sized target. Also combos with Close And Personal.
Corkscrew Charge: The Brawler does not have to move in a straight line while charging.
Clearly by the time we are all done the brawler will have 700 abilities that cover every form of unarmed combat. And there will be much rejoicing.
On another note, I think the Brawler could gain a Brawler ability ever odd level. I mean, in addition to the supernatural ones. If only to keep a constant pattern. I like constant patterns… although I suppose that is a personal preference. At this rate the brawler will have way more than 10 awesome abilities.
One of the nifty things about how the class is built is that a DM can look through it and ban individual ability choices without really messing up the entire class.
Edit: Those abilities look good, but I think we need to make it clear that Constant Sway is done as part of an attack. Right now, it looks like you can attack unlimited times per round provided you move 5ft each time.
Also, I made ringing ears with fighting Casters in mind. Spells with verbal components suffer a 20% failure chance of the caster is deafened.
Edit: I used "Massive Brute" instead of just giving them Powerful Build because Powerful Build would also boost their Unarmed Strike Damage.
Also, concerning Dips. I think I have it so Brawler abilities only work when fighting Unarmed and wearing light armor.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dsurion
I don't know if you've noticed, but pretty much everything BRC posts is full of awesome.
Quote:
Originally Posted by chiasaur11
So, Astronaut, War Hero, or hideous Mantis Man, hop to it! The future of humanity is in your capable hands and or terrifying organic scythes.
Also, concerning Dips. I think I have it so Brawler abilities only work when fighting Unarmed and wearing light armor.
You don't mention the unarmed restriction at the moment. Adding that would stop most dips.
Constant Sway: The Brawler can take a 5ft step while making an attack. The Brawler must threaten the target of the attack during the entire move. I.E. The brawler could not step away from a target. He can use this ability anytime he makes an attack action and it does not count against the number of 5ft steps he can make per round.
Actually, it could be a great dip for a Rogue- the good BAB and d12 hit dice are attractive to a melee rogue, and so is getting a brawler ability-Dirty Fighting would be great, except it takes a standard action so you couldn't do it then sneak attack w/o full attack and if you full attack you'd have to use your best attack bonus for the dirty fighting and the next one for sneak attack. That just requires light armor and not 2-handed weapons.
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That whale is going to die, and it's Fullbladder's fault.
While coming up with new abilities is awesome (And I'll probably put these new ones into the first post when I have the chance) there are some questions concerning the class that I feel need to be answered.
1) Right now, a Brawler's abilities only work in light or no armor. Should I get rid of that, and just not give the Brawler medium or Heavy armor proficiency?
Doing so would just mean every brawler would do a fighter dip, and run around in full plate, so prolly not.
2) A Brawler's abilities require the Brawler to be fighting unarmed. This makes sense for most of their abilities, but not all.
Should I go through and specify which abilities require the Brawler to be unarmed? Or should I just put a blanket "These don't work when fighting with a weapon"?
Currently, a Brawler is only multiclass friendly if it forms the core of the build. A Multiclass Barb/Brawler or Fighter/Brawler can be effective, but they'd largely just be a Brawler. I don't want this to be a dip-only class, but I also want to give people using it the ability to craft the character they want. I'm not opposed to somebody making a multiclass Fighter/Brawler who wears light armor, took the Brawler abilities that don't require fighting unarmed, and using a greatsword. But I'm willing to ban that if limiting all their powers to when fighting unarmed is the only way to stop it from being nothing but a dip class.
Edit: It looks like we've got two basic directions for the Brawler right now. The Wrestler (Trip/bull rush/grapple/disarm, and deal extra damage while doing so) and the Boxer (Full attack for massive damage). I like that.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dsurion
I don't know if you've noticed, but pretty much everything BRC posts is full of awesome.
Quote:
Originally Posted by chiasaur11
So, Astronaut, War Hero, or hideous Mantis Man, hop to it! The future of humanity is in your capable hands and or terrifying organic scythes.
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