LGBTitp - Part Six

[Yora]

That would be hard to verify without some major research. It makes sense in some ways.
But no sense at all in others.

[Coidzor]

Originally Posted by Faulty

We are different from everyone else, though, and I don't think LGBT culture should be assimilated into the dominant culture.

If we prick you, do you not bleed? If we tickle you, do you not laugh? If we poison you, do you not die?

[Danne]

Originally Posted by Coidzor

If we prick you, do you not bleed? If we tickle you, do you not laugh? If we poison you, do you not die?

Dunno, I've never been poisoned before. *looks around shiftily* Er, not that I'm volunteering myself for experimentation or something...

The trans-IT people theory intrigues me. I would love to see someone conduct a study to investigate it.

[Ishmael]

Originally Posted by Coidzor

If we prick you, do you not bleed? If we tickle you, do you not laugh? If we poison you, do you not die?

<3 Shakespeare. Nice reference.

I've always had mixed feelings about the entire integration/self-segregation concept. I mean, why do we have to trend towards extremes? Can't there both be a queer community AND a community in which one's sexuality is unimportant. I'm against any efforts to self-segregate, but on the other hand, I think a viable, and open queer community is necessary. As things stand now, there are hardly and societal images for young queer folk to see, and I think that it's important to have those figures, role models, etc....otherwise, the coming out process out be immensely more difficult.

I know that when I decided to come out, and figure out where I stood in the world, my participation in the queer community not only made it easier to get to know other gay people, but also to know, and become comfortable with, myself.

So maybe we do need a queer community. I think that's important (and, in a practical sense, it makes things like dating SO much easier).

[Danne]

@Ishmael: Eh, I was only ever able to get into Hamlet. *shrug* Very pretty language on all accounts but I am of the opinion that his poems were superior to his plays.

Also, I agree with you. I do think that activisim is important, especially in areas where we don't have equal rights, but you phrased what is, in my mind, the perfect end result. Lots of role models, people being open without being "in your face," etc.

Because, when you think about it, there are always going to be people who have difficulty coming out. Even if GLBTetc. comes to be fully culturally accepted, fully integrated and whatnot, we're still a minority, and someone somewhere is going to have trouble admitting to themselves and others that they are different (even if no one that they tell will care). It's the same way that I get horrible stage fright, because I hate putting myself on the spot. It's the same way that one of my African-American friends always feels a little awkward when she's alone with the rest of our friends, not because she thinks we're judging her or even noticing that she's black but just because she has some self esteem issues and she notices it. It is impossible to make the coming out process 100% Not An Issue for 100% of the population, because there's always going to be someone who feels uncomfortable admitting that they're "different" from their friends. Being open and having a lot of good role models is a good thing, to help those people (and others) have the strength to say, "Yep, this is me."

Which is one of the things I kept wanting to say to Terraoblivion earlier, except I couldn't think of the words for it until just now.

[Lix Lorn]

Time is out of joint, oh blessed spite, that ever I was born to set it right.

[Jacklu]

I turned on my television and saw this add.

[Derjuin]

That made me squeal in delight.

[Nameless]

Originally Posted by Jacklu

I turned on my television and saw this add.

I actually say, "That's so homosexual". If I'm gonna use a what someone is as an insult I may as well do it properly.

[Danne]

Originally Posted by Jacklu

I turned on my television and saw this add.

I've seen that one before. It's a great commerical.

[Jacklu]

Arg... I want to come out so bad... But every time I get close one of my friends or family says something to remind me how bad it would turn out if I ever did.

[Cotilla]

I know how you feel, it's been that way for me the last 5 years...

Lately I've been thinking coming out to my best friend (suerly she won't freak out about it, she is very progre), but I never take any step in that direction. And I've resolved that I wont come out to my parents until I have a boyfriend (or they have very strong evidence that I'm gay), because I don't see the point of creating a commotion in my home without any motive (but I expect that they will understand, they accepted that my auntie was lesbian).

Well, I hope you don't have to go through bad times by being who you are

[Yora]

Yesterday I got my new apartment, which is owned by an elderly couple who had baught it first for their daughter and then for their nephew while they were at the university here.
They seem like very nice people and when I got the keys the wife asked me if I also want to take the second set, for if I had a partner who would come by at times. Don't know about English, but in German you would use the female form of partner for a girlfriend or wife, unless you want to specifically leave the gender open.
I think that was really sweet.

Too bad I have neither.
I took the keys anyway, you never know.

[Ichneumon]

Originally Posted by Jacklu

I turned on my television and saw this add.

That's actually one of the few "social activism/emancipation" (or whatever you want to call it) adds I've that made me feel good. Really well done.

[Rappy]

*Belated hugs for Jacklu and Cotilla*

I know the feeling as well. My family is...let's just say less than tolerant of alternate viewpoints to their archaic society and leave it at that.

[Danne]

Just wanted to offer digital *hugs* to Jacklu, Cotilla, and everyone else who can't come out for one reason or another. I'm not really out to people in RL, primarily because I've a very private person and no one has ever asked, not because I think my family wouldn't accept me. I can't imagine what it must feel like to know that your loved ones might not be able to accept you for who you are. I hope that someday you're able to tell them and that they will love you for who you are. Stay strong!

[Yora]

I really like this add.

[Asta Kask]

I just wanted to add that if you tell them, and they don't accept you - it's their loss. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise.

[Coidzor]

Originally Posted by Yora

I really like this add.

Because it portrayed the androgynization of society as a negative thing that muddles things up unnecessarily?

Or because of the crappy art?

[Jacklu]

Nyar.... What the hell am I?

[golentan]

Originally Posted by Jacklu

Nyar.... What the hell am I?

Don't ask stupid questions. You're you.

You're awesome, regardless. All other descriptors are simply definitions of the means by which that awe is expressed.

[Lix Lorn]

Golentan is both right and awesome in the way he puts it. Can I quote that?

(hugs Jacklu)

[Danne]

Originally Posted by golentan

Don't ask stupid questions. You're you.

You're awesome, regardless. All other descriptors are simply definitions of the means by which that awe is expressed.

There is no such thing as a stupid question. Socrates rolled over in his grave when you wrote that. And you're underestimating how difficult it can be for people who don't have your self confidence. (A mistake I also make.)

I'm in total agreement with you on everything else, though. Be strong! Be able to say (to yourself and anyone you think is ready to listen) "I'm me and that's beautiful!" Because it is, it's wonderful and amazing and glorious. Labels and such have their place but have no effect on who you are.

[Lyesmith]

Sorry to hijack the self-affirmation, but does anyone else read any "gay interest" sites? I follow The Advocate, and sometimes read some of the articles on The New Gay, but they're both pretty american in terms of cultural bias.

[Danne]

Originally Posted by Aziraphale

Sorry to hijack the self-affirmation, but does anyone else read any "gay interest" sites? I follow The Advocate, and sometimes read some of the articles on The New Gay, but they're both pretty american in terms of cultural bias.

I enjoy Lee Wind's blog, "I'm Here, I'm Queer, What the Hell Do I Read" (here's a link). It's focus is on highlighting GLBT in literature, primarily YA but also some for older and younger readers, but it also frequently talks about politics, history, current events, civil rights, culture, and even non-GLBT things that the Wind deems important (such as celebrating Banned Book Week). He's American, so a lot of it is focused on American events, but he's big into diversity, too, so you also get discussions of, say, homophobic laws in Uganda, GLBT characters in South African soap operas, and the gay marriage movement in Ireland. This is also the site where I learned that Walt Whitman and Tchaikovsky were both gay. (Something which their respective Wikipedia articles somehow fail to mention. )

Don't know if that's what you had in mind, but it's a pretty awesome site, so consider it plugged.

[golentan]

Originally Posted by Danne

There is no such thing as a stupid question. Socrates rolled over in his grave when you wrote that. And you're underestimating how difficult it can be for people who don't have your self confidence. (A mistake I also make.)

I'm in total agreement with you on everything else, though. Be strong! Be able to say (to yourself and anyone you think is ready to listen) "I'm me and that's beautiful!" Because it is, it's wonderful and amazing and glorious. Labels and such have their place but have no effect on who you are.

I will agree that no question is inherently stupid without context, but I disagree that some questions are not stupid when asked in specific ways. "Where are my legs?" is fine when you've taken a hit and can't feel anything below the waist, but otherwise the answer should fairly obviously be "Right below and to the sides of the naughty bits" or "You don't have any" or whatever other normal answer your specific anatomy entails.

So, unless Jacklu has found herself mid-kafka, I'm going to go with "You're you, you should know this already." Existential crises are only for people who answer anything but "I'm Me!" to that query internally, or who insist that descriptors be attached to it. Which is silly: to highlight why I will use hair.

Person A is blond. When asked what their haircolor is, they probably answer blond. When asked what they are, they should probably not answer blond: their blondness is self evident to the viewer and not relevant to the question. Person A wants to be blue haired, however. A lot. More than anything else in the world. When asked what their haircolor is they should answer "Blonde, but I'm going to dye it." When asked what they are, the answer shouldn't be at all different because they want to dye their hair, because haircolor isn't relevant to their existence. If they woke up tomorrow and found their wish granted and they naturally grew blue hair forevermore, they wouldn't suddenly be person B, they're person A with a new answer to "what's your haircolor?" It's a cosmetic change, it makes them happy. But they still are, and always will be, person A, just as they were before.

I fail to see why fiddly bits or who you're attracted to is any different, save that a sudden change of them might lead to an awkward situation and/or breakup with those close to you because of prejudice/lack of attraction. Jacklu is Jacklu, Golentan is Golentan, and Danne is Danne. So there. See my sig.

As for Aziraphale: I've got nuttin' for ya. Sorry.

[Danne]

Originally Posted by golentan

*snip*

I fail to see why fiddly bits or who you're attracted to is any different, save that a sudden change of them might lead to an awkward situation and/or breakup with those close to you because of prejudice/lack of attraction. Jacklu is Jacklu, Golentan is Golentan, and Danne is Danne. So there. See my sig.

As for Aziraphale: I've got nuttin' for ya. Sorry.

I wasn't actually arguing with you there. I'm in full agreement that I am me, you are you, Jacklu is Jacklu, and hey, isn't that grand? But I do think you underestimate how difficult it is for other people to come to understand that.

I once got into an discussion with a friend of mine who was having some pretty bad self esteem issues, and my arguments were very similar to the ones you're making now (along with telling her why she's a great person, pretty, etc.). Her response was something to the effect of, " You really don't get it at all, do you?" To which I had to stop, think, shrug, and say, "No, I guess I really don't."

I am a very strong person, and from the sound of it, you are, too. I don't understand the reasons how my friend (who is smart and kind and gorgeous) could have self esteem issues, or why some girls pretend to be dumb to attract boys, or what Jacklu might be going through to feel so lost and confused right now. I don't understand the how or the why, but I still need to acknowledge the existence of their feelings, for them and for me (ignorance is a bad thing). Shoving a simple, "You're you! Ain't it grand?" at them doesn't help them unless they're already at the point where they really do understand that and just need a little shove in the right direction to acknowledge it.

Tl;dr: Jacklu is Jacklu, and from everything I've read in my (admittedly short) time on these forums, Jacklu is a great person. But it's insensitive (and often cruel) for me not to acknowledge any difficulties others might be feeling, even if I can't fully understand why they are feeling them.

[Coidzor]

Originally Posted by Jacklu

Nyar.... What the hell am I?

A meat popsicle.

[bluewind95]

"What am I..?"

That's a question that seems so simple... and at face value definitely has the answer you gave, Golentan.

But I don't think Jacklu is asking it in that objective manner, but rather... if it is the same way I have asked that question myself.... it is in the subjective manner of "What does it mean to be me?".

I think Jacklu is thinking more about what traits make "a Jacklu". Does being Jacklu imply being a good person? Or a bad one? Does it imply intelligence? Or foolishness? Does it imply being a person others would like? Or a person most wouldn't? And all these traits... will they lead to good things or bad things? How is the world different because of all this? That is the way I have asked that question. I too know I am me. But sometimes I question what that means. And not just for me, even, but for other people too. Those I care about... to them... what does it mean that I am me? Are they happy for this, or do they wish that I were not like I am? I think this too may be what Jacklu is asking about.

While I'm not sure you really know me, Jacklu... I can tell you what you are in my eyes. You're a person who's been through a lot. You're the kind of person who gives importance to emotions... and not just your own. I've seen you around in the depression thread and not once have I seen nasty, unkind, hurtful words from you. Only words that speak of someone who is kind. So... in all... a good person. The world is different in the eyes of those of us who have noticed your kindness... because at least for us who know you like that, there's one more good soul in the planet. And that's always a plus. If other people can't see that... well... their loss. But I know that I'm not the only one who thinks you're a good person... so that has to count too, right?

[Derjuin]

I think of you similarly to Bluewind, jacklu. You're a really nice person, and you've helped me lots of times, and I'm sure you've helped lots of people a lot. Sometimes I wish I could help you more, but...I'm not always sure how I hope this helps in some way answer your question...!