[3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

[Hyudra]

Yeah, I kind of went back and forth as far as the BAB. It feels wrong to be a brawny creature but not have a full BAB, but at the same time, giving it a full BAB makes it too desirable as a one-level dip, I think.

I settled on just having the +0 for first level and full BAB from there on out, as unconventional as that is. I'm open to suggestions.

I'll fix the fort save.

[Crafty Cultist]

Natural armor should be based on an ability score rather than HD. In this case it would probably be constitution as it comes from mundane toughness.

the special abilities seem to focus on simply bashing the enemy into the ground, which perfectly represents a typical hill giant.

its good to have another contributor to this thread. Welcome

[Hyudra]

I've been chipping in from time to time before, this is my first stab at it.

I'm not sure about the natural armor value being based on the armor score. The SRD entry has the Hill Giant with 12d8 HD and 9 natural armor.

I tried putting together some creatures using these monster classes (Sphinx, which really needs a leg up, and Troll) prior to trying my hand at it, and I came to the conclusion that they're really disadvantaged as far as their ability to contribute in hand to hand combat. The natural armor bonus is low, and you're often paying extra for gear (either due to size or to unusual shape). You can't make iterative attacks, so you're relying on what your singular attacks offer, and you don't have full BAB. Melee characters kinda struggle to shine to begin with in 3.5, and I'm thinking some of these monsters might have trouble keeping up with even the weaker melee classes. I aimed to balance out the Hill Giant with abilities, both passive and active, that rounded him out in combat while keeping in flavor.

So when I was considering the natural armor for the Hill Giant, I opted to reconcile it with the monster entry, and figured the Hill Giant would have the option of acquiring medium size armor at lower levels. At higher levels, he'd get enough natural armor to balance out the fact that +5 plate mail for a gargantuan creature costs him 213,200 gold.

The other option would be to just make it twice his con bonus, but I think that would grant more early returns and less in the long run.

[Oslecamo]

Originally Posted by Hyudra

I'm not sure about the natural armor value being based on the armor score. The SRD entry has the Hill Giant with 12d8 HD and 9 natural armor.

The monster classes Nat armor isn't suposed to be a direct representation of the original monster's Nat armor, for both balance reasons and the fact that monsters don't actualy follow any rule. Just like ability scores.

Plus hill giants are suposed to be profecient with light and medium armor out of the bat, so no need at all to give him such an high nat armor bonus.

Originally Posted by Hyudra

I tried putting together some creatures using these monster classes (Sphinx, which really needs a leg up, and Troll) prior to trying my hand at it, and I came to the conclusion that they're really disadvantaged as far as their ability to contribute in hand to hand combat. The natural armor bonus is low, and you're often paying extra for gear (either due to size or to unusual shape). You can't make iterative attacks, so you're relying on what your singular attacks offer, and you don't have full BAB. Melee characters kinda struggle to shine to begin with in 3.5, and I'm thinking some of these monsters might have trouble keeping up with even the weaker melee classes.

You were doing it wrong.

First, the troll can use weapons. I even gave him proefeciency. He can back up a melee weapon with his bite attack.
Second Lords of Madness gives us mouthpick weapons, wich can be wielded with your mouth and deliver iterative attacks with them.
Third those monsters are gaining stats faster than everybody else. Those should make up for any remaining diference in Bab.

Fourth, I still didn't have time to properly review the shpinx. It's not even in the index. (EDIT: heck I can't even find it now. Link please?)

Originally Posted by Hyudra

I aimed to balance out the Hill Giant with abilities, both passive and active, that rounded him out in combat while keeping in flavor.

And you did well in this, I quite liked your special abilities, but please use standard Bab advancements.

Originally Posted by Hyudra

So when I was considering the natural armor for the Hill Giant, I opted to reconcile it with the monster entry, and figured the Hill Giant would have the option of acquiring medium size armor at lower levels. At higher levels, he'd get enough natural armor to balance out the fact that +5 plate mail for a gargantuan creature costs him 213,200 gold.

Wait, what? What kind of cruel sadic DM would interpret the rules that way? It's only the base armor that costs extra. The enchantment cost remains the same. Same for other magic items. Dracomicon states that dragons can purchase pretty much any piece of magic equipment at regular humanoid cost. It's magic!

Anyway nice job overall, but please put the Bab back at average. The giant's +5 str should keep him hiting hard. Also giants are suposed to have two slam attacks, not just one.

[Draken]

Cost is only a matter with regards to mundane items anyway. Magic stuff resizes to fit the wearer.

[Hyudra]

Made the following changes:

11:18am, May 12th - Reverted BAB to medium (From 0, 1, 2, 3, 4 to current).
11:18am, May 12th - Changed natural armor amount from "3/4 HD" to "Con bonus".
11:18am, May 12th - Added light and medium armor proficiency.
11:18am, May 12th - Added 2nd slam attack.

Cost is only a matter with regards to mundane items anyway. Magic stuff resizes to fit the wearer.
---
Wait, what? What kind of cruel sadic DM would interpret the rules that way? It's only the base armor that costs extra. The enchantment cost remains the same. Same for other magic items. Dracomicon states that dragons can purchase pretty much any piece of magic equipment at regular humanoid cost. It's magic!

Of course. Excuse me for being daft.

It was primarily at the low levels I was struggling to make the more unusual creatures (ie. Blink Dog, Sphinx) viable, when you don't have magic gear, you're paying twice the amount if you want to supplement your non-proficient self with some low-penalty light armor and your natural armor bonus isn't cutting it.

Fourth, I still didn't have time to properly review the shpinx. It's not even in the index. (EDIT: heck I can't even find it now. Link please?)

VoltHawk's Gynosphinx

[Volthawk]

Originally Posted by Hyudra

VoltHawk's Gynosphinx

Which I actually still have to modify.

EDIT: OK, hopefully it's alright now.

[Oslecamo]

Originally Posted by Hyudra

Made the following changes:

11:18am, May 12th - Reverted BAB to medium (From 0, 1, 2, 3, 4 to current).
11:18am, May 12th - Changed natural armor amount from "3/4 HD" to "Con bonus".
11:18am, May 12th - Added light and medium armor proficiency.
11:18am, May 12th - Added 2nd slam attack.

Great! Added to the index.

Originally Posted by Hyudra

It was primarily at the low levels I was struggling to make the more unusual creatures (ie. Blink Dog, Sphinx) viable, when you don't have magic gear, you're paying twice the amount if you want to supplement your non-proficient self with some low-penalty light armor and your natural armor bonus isn't cutting it.

Well, that's for what diping is for. One quick jump to other class and you get those. Remember that you can make a "pause" in taking the monster clases and then come back.

Also I usualy play medium high-Point buy, where it's easy to afford a 16 con to get a +3 bonus, wich is what basic light armor offers. Also notice many of those monsters have superior land speeds to keep them mobile, and other monsters get stuff like DR or regen at low levels, where it's a really good ability.

1st lv still sucks, but well, it's 1st level. Most stuff sucks there. And as long as you've got a +3 bonus to Con you're not worst than your average rogue and still ahead of the wizard/sorceror.

Originally Posted by Hyudra

VoltHawk's Gynosphinx

Ah thanks! Volthawk, I believe some good advice was offered to you already on the sphyx, go work on it!

EDIT:Still lacking the scaling save DCs of the SLAs. Also I think you went a little overboard. All good saves, full BAB, 6 skill points per level, and pseudo-spellcaster on top of all the sphynx abilities? Hmm, I believe something has to be cut in there.

[Volthawk]

Originally Posted by Oslecamo

Ah thanks! Volthawk, I believe some good advice was offered to you already on the sphyx, go work on it!

Is it OK now? I changed the SLAs to fit, gave it lore, fixed the claw damage, and gave it a scaling bonus to a few skills, and added a few more skills.

[Hyudra]

I was looking over the updated Gynosphinx, still needs a maneuverability for flight.

Stat spread is a bit 'all over the place'. Perhaps take a page from the Succubus' book and make it so that the Gynosphinx just gets Wis bonuses and can apply Wis to stuff that would require Int (Like knowledges?). This would give it a robust spot/listen which makes sense for a world-wary avian/feline.

[Volthawk]

Originally Posted by Hyudra

I was looking over the updated Gynosphinx, still needs a maneuverability for flight.

Done. Gave her poor, as that's what the original has.

[Oslecamo]

Originally Posted by volthawk

Is it OK now? I changed the SLAs to fit, gave it lore, fixed the claw damage, and gave it a scaling bonus to a few skills, and added a few more skills.

You need to state what the DC of the SLAs is. Also you went a little overboard. Full BAB, excellent skills, all good saves, and pseudo-spellcaster on top may be too much on top of the gynoxphnx abilites. Cut something out (not much needed, choose two of either saves, lower bab less skill points per level, lower HD) and state that it doesn't have hands capable of manipulation.

[Hyudra]

Stat spread is a bit 'all over the place'. Perhaps take a page from the Succubus' book and make it so that the Gynosphinx just gets Wis bonuses and can apply Wis to stuff that would require Int (Like knowledges?). This would give it a robust spot/listen which makes sense for a world-wary avian/feline.

Reiterating as we've been ninja'ing each other left & right.

[Volthawk]

Alright, gave her cleric HD/BAB/Saves, took away the bonus to some skills, but let her use Wisdom for it, and added in saves.

[Hyudra]

Originally Posted by Oslecamo

Great! Added to the index.

Excellent.

With that done, I could move on to the other giant types. I'm thinking of keeping the basic template more or less the same (except cloud & storm get better will saves, IIRC), but having each 'bigger' giant have a few more levels and different base abilities (So something different than Crush, Smash, Trample on the Stone Giant). Any objections?

[Draken]

Hmm... Been having some ideas for Nerra and Elementals. I think I will get to work on these soon. Since all elementals work on pretty much the same principle I will go and make a generic class for them, I think.

Also, checking the archives, it says "Succubus" in at least one line of the erynies entry.

[Tony the tiger]

can i get one for rakshahasa, naztharune

[demidracolich]

There is already a rakshahasa class. There is no point in having another one.

[Edge]

Except that the naztharune rakshasa from MM3 is notably different from the standard one presented in the MM, possessing rogue, assassin and shadowdancer abilities rather than innate spellcasting.

[demidracolich]

However, is it different enough to have its own class or just be a variant on the already made class?

[Draken]

Different CR, completely different special abilities. Yeah. I would say it warrants a separate class.

The Ak'chazar, however, would not. That one would work fairly well as an extention of the basic Rakshasa.

There is also the ToB Rakshasa that also warrants its own class. That thing is a completely different... Whatever that one is.

[deuxhero]

Originally Posted by Oslecamo

snip

Hehe, Use Rope is a class skill. Cute.

[Lyndworm]

Is there any chance of more templates getting made? I like that idea a lot.

[demidracolich]

Well, you'll have to get someone else to make it because he said he won't be able to make anything until August.

[Lyndworm]

That was a general question to whoever planned to do work, not just Oslecamo.

[Hyudra]

Templates? You mean more of these classes, or something different?

You'll have to be more specific.

I'll be moving on to Stone Giant and will probably have something up tonight.

[Lyndworm]

Yes, I meant template classes, such as the Half-Dragon class. Sorry for the confusion.

[Oslecamo]

Ups, forgot to add Volthawk's Gynosphinx to the index, corrected now.

And yes I'll be answering questions and reviewing stuff but I don't have the time to make new classes from scratch right now.

[Draken]

So. Here is a bit of my work.

Nerra

Spoiler

HD: d8

Level	BAB	Fort	Ref	Will	Features
1	+1	+0	+2	+2	Man in the Mirror, Mirror Sheath, Shard Blade
2	+2	+0	+3	+3	Mirror Magic Initiate, Shard Spray, Dex +1
3	+3	+1	+3	+3	Reflective Spell Resistance, Mirror Jump, Cha +1
4	+4	+1	+4	+4	Mirror Magic, Dex +1
5	+5	+1	+4	+4	Greater Shard Spray, Dex +1, Cha +1
6	+6/+1	+2	+5	+5	Mirror Magic Master, Dex +1

Class Skills (6+ Int Modifier): Bluff, Craft, Decipher Script, Diplomacy, Disguise, Forgery, Gather Information, Hide, Intimidate, Knowledge (Any), Listen, Move Silently, Search, Sense Motive, Sleigh of Hand, Spot, Tumble, Use Magic Device.

Proficiencies: Nerra are proficient with simple and martial weapons and with light and medium armor.

Man in the Mirror: A Nerra loses all other racial bonus and gains outsider traits (basically darkvision 60 feet). It is a medium sized outsider with base land speed of 30 feet, resistance to cold, electricity and fire equal to his HD and vulnerability to sound.

In addition, the Nerra gains a Natural Armor bonus equal to his charisma modifier.

Mirror Sheath (Su): The Nerra has a special extradimensional storage space that he can access through any mirror or reflective surface (including his own skin), this storage space can hold up to 5 pounds per HD.

Shard Blade: Each Nerra owns a personal shard blade, which is a melee slashing weapon that appears to be made from a broken shard of a mirror set on a shiny hilt, but is as strong as any metal weapon. The Nerra gains proficiency with all weapons of the type of his shard blade, and has Weapon Focus for it as a bonus feat.

As the Nerra grows in power, so does the shard blade. At 4th level it gains a +1 enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls, this enhancement bonus increases by +1 every 4 HD thereafter (+2 at 8 HD, 3 at 12 HD, etc). At 7th level it gains the Keen property, and at 10th level it gains the Wounding property.

If the shard blade leaves the Nerra’s possession it vanishes one round later, if the blade is lost or destroyed the Nerra can recreate it in his hand as a move action.

Mirror Magic Initiate (Sp): A Nerra is a master of deception and magic that tricks the sight comes naturally to him. When applicable, the save DCs for these spell-like abilities is 10+1/2 HD+ Cha modifier, with a caster level equal to his HD.

The Nerra can use Disguise Self once per day per character level and Mirror Image once per day per two character levels.

Shard Spray (Su): Starting at 2nd level, once per day per character level, the Nerra can release a shower of sharp glass from his hand. The shard spray is a ranged attack with a range of 30 feet, plus 10 feet per character level past second and deals 1d4 points of slashing damage per HD. In addition, wounds caused by the shard spray bleed for an additional 1 damage per round until it is stopped by either a DC 10 Heal check or by any Cure spell. Periodic damage from multiple shard sprays stacks.

At 5th level the shard spray grows in strength. Its damage increases to 1d6 and the periodic damage increases to 2. The Nerra can also use his shard spray as a cone attack with a range equal to half the range of the targeted attack, dealing 1d6 points of damage per two HD.

Ability Score Increase: The Nerra gains +1 to Dexterity at levels, 2, 4, 5 and 6, and gains +1 to Charisma at levels 3 and 5.

Reflective Spell Resistance (Sp): At 3rd level, the Nerra gains spell resistance 12+HD, any time a targeted spell fails to pierce this resistance it is reflected back at the caster, who becomes either the spell’s target or point of origin. The Nerra also becomes immune to gaze attacks, and all such attacks are reflected back to the origin.

Mirror Jump (Su): At 3rd level the Nerra may travel short or long distances through the plane of mirrors. As a standard action, by touching a mirror or another reflective surface (clear glass, still water or shiny metal), he can enter the plane of mirrors and instantly exit through any other mirror within 20 feet per HD. If no mirror is avaiable in range, the Nerra becomes stuck in the mirror plane until he can find a mirror to cross through.

Starting at 13 level, this ability can be used to cross long distances, as per the Shadow Walk spell, with a caster level equal to the Nerra's HD. This transport must begin and end at a mirror. This function of Mirror Jump can be used once per day per four HD.

Mirror Magic Adept (Sp): The Nerra can use Invisibility and Misdirection once per day per HD.

Mirror Magic Master (Sp): The Nerra can use Mislead and False Vision once per day per two HD.

Comments:

Spoiler

So yes. This is meant to fill in for the Varoot, Kalareem and Sillit. The mirror people have some fun things going for them.

Out of the box the nerra is a finesse warrior with several skills useful in social scenarios. Mirror sheath is a useful little thing I added so the first level didn't resume to "skill points, resistances and a weapon". Fortitude saves were left low because there was already plenty of high "basic stats" (BAB, Ref, will and skills).

Shard spray deals slashing damage and is subject to damage reduction, following similar rules to those presented in Complete Psionic regarding powers such as Crystal Shard.

The spell-like abilities are very good for combat and social scenarios. Invisibility and Misdirection are not in the original monster, but I needed something for level 4 since Mislead and False Vision are both 5th level spells. These two are pretty much just weaker versions of those two spells, so not a big stretch.

Dexterity and Charisma increases round up the Nerra. These are the two ability scores that figure most prominently between the three basic monsters.

So, there you have the Nerra. Good followups would be rogue and other sneaky classes I presume.

And indeed, Shard Blade can give free EWP with any one exotic slashing weapon. Luckly, the Spiked Chain isn't a slashing weapon. Heh.

[demidracolich]

What type of weapon is the shardblade or can it be any slashing weapon?