LGBTitp - Part Six

[Lix Lorn]

Originally Posted by Leaf-Eater

So, on the road, meaning to full-on gender change? I just want to see what it'd be like, actually, kinda like a personal challenge to see if I can pass as a girl.

Yes. (nods)

I saw some guy in a dress in the supermarket. It was disconcerting, because he didn't look even slightly feminine. I have a feeling he lost a bet, but if not, good for him. XD

[golentan]

@ Quincunx: Thank you young crone. Here is a purse of moneys, which I'm not going to give you.

And I look bangin' hot in a dress. Though my family gets uncomfortable with that. Even on halloween.

[Lycan 01]

My girlfriend dresses like a guy sometimes. Guys shorts, guys jeans, baggy shirts, ties, whatever... She used to do it all the time, since she thinks they're more comfortable than girls shirts and jeans and whatnot. Though she's recently begun wearing girls clothes a lot more because they're prettier. Nobody ever cared about her dressing like a guy, or at least I didn't. Though it did cause a few interesting situations, like children asking her if she was a boy or a girl.

She also wanted to wear a tuxedo to her prom, which I would have found hilarious. But she knew better than to mention it to her "KILL IT WITH FIRE!!" dad...


Its just kind of odd that a guy dressing as a girl is so taboo to most people, but few people raise any concern if a girl dresses as a guy or puts on a tux...

[golentan]

Originally Posted by Lycan 01

My girlfriend dresses like a guy sometimes. Guys shorts, guys jeans, baggy shirts, ties, whatever... She used to do it all the time, since she thinks they're more comfortable than girls shirts and jeans and whatnot. Though she's recently begun wearing girls clothes a lot more because they're prettier. Nobody ever cared about her dressing like a guy, or at least I didn't. Though it did cause a few interesting situations, like children asking her if she was a boy or a girl.

She also wanted to wear a tuxedo to her prom, which I would have found hilarious. But she knew better than to mention it to her "KILL IT WITH FIRE!!" dad...


Its just kind of odd that a guy dressing as a girl is so taboo to most people, but few people raise any concern if a girl dresses as a guy or puts on a tux...

Welcome to the wonderful world of the Double Standard. We have novelty clothing to celebrate, but be sure only to pick that which is appropriate for your predefined role in society.

[The Anarresti]

I think it kinda ties into my earlier think about it being ok for girls to be bi, but not for guys to be anything but straight. Also, how gay men are funny (dudes liking dudes! LOLZ how weird!), but not lesbians. If you think about what irony is (a discrepancy between the real and the perceived/expected, to quote my lich english teacher), it's odd how the general populace more expects guys to be straight than women.
My guess is partially that because guys, culturally, need to feel like they are in control, the idea of any fellow males braking that little barrier scares them. If that guy is gay, then, well, anyone could be. Secondly, it's ok for women to be gay because quite a few guys think it is hot, and thus encourage it.
And the thing about women wearing guys clothes versus guys wearing girl clothes: it used to be equally taboo, until about the end of WWII or so. Just a thought.
The following is self-absorbed musings about me in drag, hence the spoiler.

Spoiler

The main reason why I want to try drag is because I think that I have a good chance of pulling it off. I'm skinny, so I don't have the man-gut, and am an endurance athlete, so instead of having big man muscles I have lean, toned limbs. I'm a swimmer, so I'm no stranger to shaving my legs and an actor, so no stranger to makeup or playing a female role. Semi-experienced dancer, so with a bit of practice I think I could pull off walking like a girl. Last and biggest plus is that, facially, I'm pretty. Sounds conceited, but I've gotten multiple second opinions: I have that cute, symmetrical face that looks equally nice on girls or boys, but isn't really that seductive or sexy. I'm blond so what little stubble I have is invisible.
My biggest problem is my voice: Morgan Freeman-esq resonant baritone. Of course, your voice always sounds better to yourself, but the fact that I can feel my eyeballs buzz in their sockets when I talk probably shows that my voice is the manliest thing about me. Also, I've got abnormally wide swimmer's feet: it's hard enough to find shoes in men's sizes that fit, let alone women's.

Anyone out there with male plumbing successfully pulled it off? I don't want to try the whole "fabulous drag queen" thing, I just want to pass as a normal girl for a few hours.
@LixLorn: Best of luck! If it helps, I've seen men in drag who've really pulled it off well. If it's heartening, the reason you don't see successful drag queens is because you think that they're actual women, so you probably have seen more than you realize.

[Lix Lorn]

Thanks.
My biggest problem is that I'm big. :/ Too tall, too big of frame, big feet, and too fat. DXD My face looks feminine, I'm told by net people.

[blackfox]

Speaking of drag, those of you that know me, or could manage to get me to put like, effort, into posting a picture, do you think I could pass in androgynous clothes with shorter hair?

[Worira]

That question feels like a trap.

In several ways.

[Lycan 01]

Short hair and baggy clothes can make almost any girl mistakeable for a guy.

Like I said, my GF used to wear gender-neutral or guy clothing, and she also wore her hair short. And it genuinly confused people the first time they saw her, sometimes leading them to assume she was a guy. Her first day of college, her History Professor called her Sir when she tried to ask a question. Once she started talking, he had to fumble for an apology. XD

[blackfox]

Originally Posted by Worira

That question feels like a trap.

In several ways.

Oh fine. Images below.

Spoiler

[golentan]

Originally Posted by blackfox

Oh fine. Images below.

Spoiler

I actually kind of doubt it. You have a very feminine face. Eyebrows, jawline, and neckline all are at the feminine end of the spectrum, and you have narrow looking shoulders on top of it.

[RabbitHoleLost]

Originally Posted by golentan

Welcome to the wonderful world of the Double Standard. We have novelty clothing to celebrate, but be sure only to pick that which is appropriate for your predefined role in society.

Maybe I'm just weird, but I never really saw this as a doublestandard, so much as it just makes...sense more, really, in that skirts on men with their dangly parts just isn't practical, whereas pants on women are more acceptable because there isn't anything hanging out where it shouldn't be...

[Anuan]

Originally Posted by blackfox

Speaking of drag, those of you that know me, or could manage to get me to put like, effort, into posting a picture, do you think I could pass in androgynous clothes with shorter hair?

You'd look like androgynous, but not in that you'd look neither male nor female, you'd look kind of like a feminine male. It'd work. And be hawt >.>

[golentan]

Originally Posted by RabbitHoleLost

Maybe I'm just weird, but I never really saw this as a doublestandard, so much as it just makes...sense more, really, in that skirts on men with their dangly parts just isn't practical, whereas pants on women are more acceptable because there isn't anything hanging out where it shouldn't be...

Are you not wearing underwear below skirts or something?

And it is a double standard. Because if a man wears a skirt, he will have his sexuality, gender identity, intelligence, morals, the size of his manhood, and assorted other traits mocked and questioned. Relatives will try to prevent him from leaving the house wearing it, because it is embarrassing and will reflect poorly on them. He may face physical assault.

If a woman wears pants, nobody will even refer to it as crossdressing. She will not get any comments.

So **** that.

[Jacklu]

hrm... lots of discussion concerning my post. For clarification; My brother is only three years younger than me and my friend is two. We all joined the guild at the same time. I never told the guild that I was male or female, just let them assume what they would about it.

Also, Blackfox continues to be cute and cuddly.

[The Anarresti]

Originally Posted by RabbitHoleLost

Maybe I'm just weird, but I never really saw this as a doublestandard, so much as it just makes...sense more, really, in that skirts on men with their dangly parts just isn't practical, whereas pants on women are more acceptable because there isn't anything hanging out where it shouldn't be...

There's no reason why skirts wouldn't be practical on men. See kilts. In fact, I can assure you that wearing a kilt (robe, skirt, etc.) "regimental" is the most comfortable way to cover your uglies.

[The Anarresti]

Do not open unless you enjoy history, specifically, European fashion and gender history

Spoiler

The only practical reason for wearing pants instead of skirts (actually, it's more of the other way round) is that if women pee, back in the good ol' days where dumping a pot out the window was the hight of sanitation, is that all they'd have to do is squat a few inches to urinate (back in the 16th-18th centuries, no one wore underwear).
The reason why men would wear pants is because, once urban-central Roman life fell apart in Europe, life became more centered around the Rural setting. For manual labor, pants are more practical, especially considering that in roman times the work dress for manual laborers was a tunic hiked up really far and tied off (that's were the term "gird your loins" comes from: you'd put a girdle (belt) around your loins (upper thighs, more or less), to hold your tunic out of the way while you worked). In chilly northern europe, it's not a good idea to be wearing what amounts to a miniskirt commando style for most of the year. Also, pants are more practical for riding, which the new elites did aplenty. In the old Roman times, the elites were the ones who did NOT ride, who stayed behind in the city and jabbered in the Forum all day, hence the (complicated, impractical, expensive, comfortable) togas. In the medieval ages, the elites were the warriors who fought.
Notice that even then (and to this day) ecclesiastical dress, i.e. those who prayed (in medieval society, there were three classes: those who fought (nobles), those who worked (commoners), those who prayed/other intellectual pursuits (priests)) bears a strong resemblance to Roman Patrician (noble) dress.
Basically, in medieval western society, the ones who wore robe-like clothing were those who were not supposed to do manual labor, i.e. women and priests.
Another interesting fashion tidbit: Until the Victorian age, men wore just as much perfume and makeup, as many ruffles, ribbons, bright colors and garnish wigs as women did. Clothes varied little by gender, much more by class. With the advent of the Victorian age, and their very, very straight-laced virtues (ankles showing? Scandalous!), men all wore reserved dress while women remained pretty, a trend that continues to this day.
Did you also know that during this straight-laced Victorian period, prostitution hit a record high?

[Jacklu]

The edit button: it is your friend.

[RabbitHoleLost]

Originally Posted by Leaf-Eater

There's no reason why skirts wouldn't be practical on men. See kilts. In fact, I can assure you that wearing a kilt (robe, skirt, etc.) "regimental" is the most comfortable way to cover your uglies.

:: Shrugs:: I'm not saying crossdressing is wrong. Infact, its a bit of a preference for me.
I'm just saying its not exactly practical for hiding those uglies, unless we're talking really long skirts.

[Serpentine]

I have a theory (that I've brought up many a time) on the cross-dressing double-standard: It is more acceptable for a woman to "elevate" herself to the level of a man, than it is for a man to "degrade" himself to the level of a woman. Discuss.
Actually, that could make a pretty good Gender Studies question... Extra points for bringing up the societies (mostly Polynesian, I think?) with a "third gender" for men who act like women.

By the way, Jacklu, none of what I was saying was a criticism of you. I was just trying to show a potential their-side.

I brought up the "guys cuddle when away from "manly" men and women" thing with my Boy. He had a range of reactions. Here's a list: incredulousness, disbelief, bebogglement, confusion, mind blownedness, "there must be something else going on there" (e.g. unacknowledged bi/homosexuality - not in a disparaging way, he just can't understand how or why straight males would want to do that), "maybe there's a new generational revolution coming through...", etc.
Basically, it's way, way out of his experience. He tried to imagine holding hands with any of his friends (it was the hand-holding bit that he got really hung up on), and simply could not.

Oh, and Golly, he thinks your touchy-feeliness is a... "gay thing" sorta thing. Along the lines of a degree of effeminacy, if you know what I mean? When I mentioned that one of the people on here just likes to touch people as he talks to them and the like, he immediately said "he's gay", to which I responded "well... yes."
(except I just got a feeling you're actually bisexual? I forget)

/ramble

Oh, and a friend of mine wears skirts. Well, he says it's a kilt, but it's a skirt. Pretty sure I've posted pictures of him doing so. He also wears women's blouses. But he is so strange, his sexuality is the last thing you'd be questioning.

[Lycan 01]

Must be something about our generation, then. Out of all the guys I know, I'm the only one who doesn't have the touchy feely thing going. Seriously, every time me and my guy friends get together, its like "Sup dude, haven't seen you in weeks! *hug hug hug*" all around for them. Just the other day, me and two of my friends were moving furniture for my family, and we stopped to take a break. Out of nowhere, my best friend starts giving me a shoulder massage. Normally, I'd protest, but I was tired, and he's good at massages. (He wants to be a massage therapist) So I let him work on my shoulders, and out of the 5 guys there, none of them said anything. Heck, I was expecting my little bro to make all sorts of jokes, but he didn't say anything...

Now, the holding hands thing I don't see happening, simply because of the intimate connections hand-holding has. Its not like a hug or anything, but more of a representation of a trusting bond or emotional connection. Or at least, that's how I feel about it...


On a related note, there's a photo somewhere around my house of my grandfather (who was such a manly man that he walked off a grenade blast) dressed in full drag. Red dress, makeup, wig, the works. Apparently, it was for a contest or something when he was slightly younger, around middle-aged...

[RabbitHoleLost]

Originally Posted by golentan

Are you not wearing underwear below skirts or something?

And it is a double standard. Because if a man wears a skirt, he will have his sexuality, gender identity, intelligence, morals, the size of his manhood, and assorted other traits mocked and questioned. Relatives will try to prevent him from leaving the house wearing it, because it is embarrassing and will reflect poorly on them. He may face physical assault.

If a woman wears pants, nobody will even refer to it as crossdressing. She will not get any comments.

So **** that.

Underwear doesn't stop men from having bulges, does it? And skirts very rarely do much to hide...ehem, the shape of male genitalia.

And, last I checked, when women first started wearing pants, they weren't allowed out of the house, they were questioned about their sexuality, intelligence and morals, and they were faced with physical assault.
My grandmother told me, when she was in school, girls weren't allowed to wear pants or jeans to class.

In all honesty, the reason it hasn't become socially acceptable on a grand level is because its still a minority of men who want to wear skirts, whereas it was almost a universal desire of women to wear pants.


tl;dr- If you want it badly enough, just wear a skirt. Get your friends to wear skirts. Get some awesomely loved teenaged male celebrity to wear a skirt.
Then you won't have to worry about it.

[Worira]

Blackfox: Yes, you could.

Serpentine: I think it has much more to do, as Rabbit says, with a great deal of effort on the part of women to make it acceptable.

Lycan: At first, I read that as a contest to walk off a grenade blast while in full drag.

[golentan]

Yeah, I'm Bi. But I've been touchy-feelie forever. When I was 3, I'd reach out and touch the arm of waiters and waitresses when I ordered at restaurants. And as I've briefly mentioned before, while I really enjoy sex, and am attracted to people of both genders, it's less "I'm attracted to you, let's sleep together," and more "I trust you, you're a good friend, and if we're sleeping together I have an excuse to touch you frequently and be physically affectionate."

I'll kill to get a headrub. Literally. A little nookie is a small price to pay, comparatively.

[Serpentine]

It wasn't so much "you're touchy because you want some gay lovin'", as "gay people tend to be more touchy-feely than other people", like "gay men are often a little (or a lot) more effeminate than straight men" or "girls tend to be better communicators than guys".
He did also mention that the guys at his work hug each other as a greeting - which is what made him think it might be a generational thing - and that he and his friends used to exchange back massages (in a "my back's sore, would you give me a hand?" sort of way).

[Dvandemon]

I don't know what to say for myself, I fantasize about guys and girls, but I don't really want to get into bed with a guy. Does that make me bi?

[Jacklu]

Going to bed as I start a new work schedule this week, just wanted to say that I have become a horrible flirt over the last couple months... Apparently to the point where the victims of such flirting have told me it borders on uncomfortable obsession.... I'm not sure what to make of this. =/

[Delta]

Originally Posted by Lycan 01

Seriously, every time me and my guy friends get together, its like "Sup dude, haven't seen you in weeks! *hug hug hug*" all around for them.

That's pretty much the standard for almost my whole social circle, male and female, to hug on meetings and goodbyes.

[Lioness]

I think if I saw a guy in the street wearing a skirt and looking completely comfortable, I'd go up to him and give him a hug and a high five. It's not hurting anyone else. Let people dress how they want.

[Dogmantra]

Originally Posted by Dvandemon

I don't know what to say for myself, I fantasize about guys and girls, but I don't really want to get into bed with a guy. Does that make me bi?

It makes you someone who fantasises about guys and girls. That's it. If you want to call yourself bi, then you're bi. Sexuality is such a varied thing that to plot it on a graph you'd need at least five more dimensions than actually exist.