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my DM made a sweeping statement about if you want the most powerful stuff, you should always use core. I don't disagree (it does give you the druid, time stop, gate, the wizard, power attack, and other build staples) but I think that his following statement, that outside of core the base classes are weak, the spells are near useless, but some of the feats and prestige classes are nice, is incorrect. to see (for myself) what makes one of us right, I'm gonna ask what the 10 most powerful things are in DnD?
by things- any feat, race, spell, class, or prestige class, in their own right. not compared to each other (swashbuckler would always be better than weapon finesse, its weapon finesse and more) but in comparison to other things of its kind. a build (pun pun, sorcadin, bardzilla, ect) is not really what I want.
I think (in no order)
shadowcraft mage
wizard
shivering touch
druid
time stop dragonwrought (due to the following shenanigans)dervish beholder mage dervish incantatrix
planar shephard mind blank gate sleep shapechange
edited. these are my own, make your own lists, I might make a big vote based list if I have time looking at everyone elses.
what do you think?
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Gate is probably the most easily abused spell in the game, and it's core. A better argument isn't to show all the broken things in non-core, but all the wonderful, decently-powered things in non-core, like Dragonfire Adepts.
But if you're just looking for broken non core things, Programmed Amnesia/Mindrape/whatever the BoED one is.
Incantatrix, for prestige class. Archivist, for base class. Superior Invisibility (you can be detected by.. touchsight, mindsight, lifesense, and True Seeing, basically. You are specifically exempt from detection by See Invisibility, Invisibility Purge, and Dust of Disappearance, and by extension any items based on those spells,) Maw of Chaos, Ironguard, and Avasculate are fun Spell Compendium additions.
shivering touch rendering most dragons useless at what? 5th level? powerful. is one dragon paralyzed broken? probably not. he usually he has friends. the adventure is not over. vorpal is able to do the same thing (not as well though)
I originally put in dervish because it makes one of the worst ever classes in the game (scout) suddenly pretty useful, but incantatrix does more for the wizard than dervish does for scout.
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Artificer. Spells like Streamers. Incantatrix and Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil. Uberchargers using Shock Trooper. Ruby Knight Vindicator and White Raven Tactics.
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Spell Compendium's Combust. 10d8 for a 2nd level spell (At 10th level, of course.)
Not so much, really. It's a touch attack, so you've got to get next to them. And if they (and their attended objects) weigh 251+ lbs. (at 10th level), nothing happens.
1. Spell-Casting when used intelligently
2. (Su) or (Sp) monster effects that duplicate casting
3. doubly so if it duplicates stuff with an xp component (looking at you Genies/Titans/Solars...)
4. Synergistic building, power attack is not broken, neither is Orb of Fire, both can become so with a little effort
5. Metamagic reducers, kiss goodbye to limitations
6. Timebending effects, initiative/turn order/action economy abuse results in a broken game
7. Calling effects, they use some combination of the above to ludicrous extent with little time or thought, in fact most of them seem to have been written with that in MIND for cryin out loud.
8. Polymorph and it's line, I know casting's up there but this one deserves special mention.
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A treasure destroying trap sounds like the work of someone who puts items in barrels or at the bottom of a death filled labyrinth.
Ah, you're starting to get it. Then you dig down and loot the remains. Give them bread and circusses and the proles wont rise against you. Give adventurers dungeons and trapped chests and they won't waste time looking for your home to kill your wife.
Spell Compendium's Combust. 10d8 for a 2nd level spell (At 10th level, of course.)
I'll bet that isn't even top 100. Pretty key to Combust is the need to be close to an enemy. This is something a good wizard avoids, if possible.
Also, I don't care what optimization level you are running at, Beholder Mage is still really powerful. Tainted Scholar? Cool. Planar Shepherd? Awesome. I'd put Beholder Mage as at least as powerful as Planar Shepherd, and possibly better than Tainted Scholar (but really, it comes down to initiative, for those two especially).
Illithid Savant is good, but only as good as your DM allows. You basically need to Gate in things you want to eat.
Anything that allows a PC to have access to 'monster powers' like the ability to gate up an Efreeti and demand wishes, or Command a Shadow and have it create a thousand spawn that you control by proxy, or turn into a Shambling Mound and Call Lightning yourself up to 100+ Con, or become a Barghest and use Feed to gain +X HD, Str, Con, NA, Sarrukh nonsense, 'age like a dragon and gain Epic feats,' etc.
That's pretty much why Gate, Planar Shepherd, Shapechange, etc. find their way onto this list, because monsters have ridiculous infinite loop powers that nobody would dream of giving to a PC.
Gate is just broken, no 2 ways around it. Why bother spending 5000xp on wish when you can just spend 1000xp to bring in a solar to cast it for you? Oh yeah, and draconomicon has pyroclastic dragons, basically great wyrm red dragons without spellcasting and the extraplanar subtype. Its almost as thought the designers thought "You know, I don't think there are nearly enough broken monsters to gate in..."
I would say polymorph, PAO as well. While weaker than shapechange, you can cast them on other players. A raging barb transformed into a treant is a very scary thing. You know you are doing something right when you break the game, and the other players spring to your defense when the DM protests because they are having so much fun as well!
However, when we talk about power, what exactly are we referring to? For example, dragonwrought is perfectly balanced on its own benefits, its only when you start combining stuff like loredrake, playing venerable kobolds and arguing that you be allowed to take epic feats at 1st lv that issues start to crop up.
Not so much, really. It's a touch attack, so you've got to get next to them. And if they (and their attended objects) weigh 251+ lbs. (at 10th level), nothing happens.
That is an evil interpretation of the "or" in the Target description.
I suspect the weight limit was intended as a limit to the weight of the object that could be set ablaze with the spell. I can see how "No, you can't set the entire castle / world on fire with a 2nd level spell" would cause them to put that line in. However, I fail to see how "No, that guy is too fat to be hurt by your fire" would make sense.
But, yes, your interpretation is RAW. WOTC should use parenthesis more often in their texts.
I suspect the weight limit was intended as a limit to the weight of the object that could be set ablaze with the spell. I can see how "No, you can't set the entire castle / world on fire with a 2nd level spell" would cause them to put that line in. However, I fail to see how "No, that guy is too fat to be hurt by your fire" would make sense.
I don't see it as "too fat" but rather that a set amount of fire is going to be spread too thin over a large creature to actually burn it. 30 seconds in the microwave is enough to heat up a slice of cold pizza. Put a whole chicken in for the same time and you're not going to notice any significant change in temperature.
Most powerful things in D&D
1. The DM
2. Pun-Pun (and other world-breaking theoretical optimization builds)*
3. Wizard
4. Natural Spell
5. Divine Metamagic
6. Polymorph
7. Gate and related items (candle of invocation etc)
8. Archivist*
9. Artificer*
10. Dragonwrought Kobold shenanigans*
* = non-core.
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I don't see it as "too fat" but rather that a set amount of fire is going to be spread too thin over a large creature to actually burn it.
Isn't that what we have hit points for? A larger creature usually have a lot of hitpoints, so he will survive the blast, while a smaller creature (with less HP) might die.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Curmudgeon
30 seconds in the microwave is enough to heat up a slice of cold pizza. Put a whole chicken in for the same time and you're not going to notice any significant change in temperature.
Put the chicken in the microwave for 10 x 30 seconds, and it will get warm.
The 251lbs monster won't even notice the heat from an infinite amount of Combust spells, at least not until he needs to pee, and loses a pound of weight that way. ;)
Anyway, there's no real need to argue this. Your reading of RAW has merits, I just think that the intention of the writers differ from that reading, and I leave it in the hands of every DM to rule it their way.
Based on actual play experience, I would not put the Artificer on such a list. Their power is largely theoretical. In the vast majority of games, they rarely have the time or money to become the monstrously powerful characters they potentially could be.
I would agree that the Beholder Mage is a contender, and most definitely non-core. Spontaneous casting from a potentially unlimited list, in 10 levels, with each spell level cast as a free action. I've never had the guts to even attempt to sick one on actual players before.
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It's not quite up in the Top 10 with things like planar binding, gate, beholder mage, and undead tainted scholars flying around (literally, in the case of the beholder mage), but shrink item can be insanely powerful. I had an argument with my roommate about the fact that given a small amount of time, I could destroy an adamantine golem with a low-level wizard with it. He didn't believe it until I showed him how I could pull off 300d6 with a single successful attack roll with a 10 cu ft chunk of granite and a simple alter self spell to fly 200 ft above it and deliver Death From Above via Dumbo Drop, both doable by level 5.
He looked like a mix between someone who'd just had his favorite puppy kicked repeatedly and one of those dogs that look at you in utter confusion.
Last edited by Lycanthromancer : 06-20-2010 at 11:29 AM.
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