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Does anyone have a comprehensive list of 3.5/PF classes that are based mostly around an at-will or per-encounter mechanic, rather than a per-day mechanic? Here are the ones that I know. Am I missing any?
Totally Encounter-Based or At-Will
Warlock
Dragonfire Adept
Warblade
Swordsage
Crusader
Binder
Dragon Shaman
Incarnate
Totemist
Has at-will or Encounter-based Elements
Factotum
Dread Necromancer
Truenamer (on this list due to the increasing DC)
Shapeshift Druid
Last edited by subject42 : 08-24-2010 at 12:24 PM.
Then there are all the martial classes without powers, such as fighter, rogue, swashbuckler.
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Originally Posted by Yukitsu
I define [optimization] as "the process by which one attains a build meeting all mechanical and characterization goals set out by the creator prior to its creation."
Factotum has some pretty important per-day abilities. If Factotum is still on the list, I could argue that Paladin and Ninja (for example) should be too. They've got a fair mix of per-day and at-will abilities.
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Factotum has some pretty important per-day abilities.
True enough. Opportunistic Piety and Arcane Dilettante are both x/day, while Cunning Knowledge is 1/day/skill.
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Also fixed the money issue by sacrificing a goat.
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Originally Posted by subject42
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Originally Posted by Yukitsu
I define [optimization] as "the process by which one attains a build meeting all mechanical and characterization goals set out by the creator prior to its creation."
Barbarian's most iconic mechanic operates on a per day basis, so I don't think that counts. As had been said, Factotum has some of its most important features with daily limits (Cunning Knowledge, Arcane Dilettante), so that's a bit iffy too. Ninja/monk have enough daily abilities that I don't think they should count. That also goes for all the spellcasting classes, including paladin and ranger (especially paladin thanks to Smite Evil and Lay on Hands). And like barbarian, knight's most iconic ability is per day as well, so that shouldn't count either.
You could make an argument for most of those being mostly at-will or encounter based, yeah, but paladin? Spells, Turn Undead, Call Horsey, Smite Evil, Remove Disease… Yeah, that won't fly. The only at-will they have is normal attack and Detect Evil.
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Originally Posted by Claudius Maximus
Also fixed the money issue by sacrificing a goat.
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Originally Posted by subject42
This board needs a "you're technically right but I still want to crawl into the fetal position and cry" emoticon.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yukitsu
I define [optimization] as "the process by which one attains a build meeting all mechanical and characterization goals set out by the creator prior to its creation."
You could make an argument for most of those being mostly at-will or encounter based, yeah, but paladin? Spells, Turn Undead, Call Horsey, Smite Evil, Remove Disease… Yeah, that won't fly. The only at-will they have is normal attack and Detect Evil.
Oh, I agree that not my entire list fits the OP's original question, but I get the feeling he's just looking for something other than a Vancian caster, so I gave him a comprehensive list.
It's not a lot granted, but very helpfull for the class, especially the 1st. It's basically at will heal for himself (tomb stained soul/necropolitan) and all his undead minions.
Oh, I agree that not my entire list fits the OP's original question, but I get the feeling he's just looking for something other than a Vancian caster, so I gave him a comprehensive list.
I'm actually running into issues with varying levels of optimization in my players' party, as well as perennial issues of resource management across a few of the players. On top of that, the idea of a "day" is extremely nebulous in D&D, while "encounter" is pretty discrete and distinct.
If it weren't for the fact that 4th edition didn't really do it for any of us, I would probably use that for this group, but I'd like to backport a few of the ideas.
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Originally Posted by Greenish
ToM also has Truenamer.
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Last edited by subject42 : 08-23-2010 at 01:19 PM.
I'd like to submit Wizard, Psion, and Erudite. With the various recharge tricks(Santum Lucubration, Psicrystal Leach, and Mental Pinnacle respectivly), they can last all day.
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I'm actually running into issues with varying levels of optimization in my players' party, as well as perennial issues of resource management across a few of the players. On top of that, the idea of a "day" is extremely nebulous in D&D, while "encounter" is pretty discrete and distinct.
If it weren't for the fact that 4th edition didn't really do it for any of us, I would probably use that for this group, but I'd like to backport a few of the ideas.
You might want to check out tome of battle (book of nine swords) with the martial maneuvers and how how they are recovered and some of the reserved feats in complete mage. It sounds like maybe you have a player blowing all their power at the drop of a hat or saving all of it till near party wipe, having something less than dropping a planet on someone/thing or something they won't have to fret over replacing later might be a good alternative... of course, maybe I completely misunderstood what the resource management problem you mentioned was.
You might want to check out tome of battle (book of nine swords) with the martial maneuvers and how how they are recovered and some of the reserved feats in complete mage. It sounds like maybe you have a player blowing all their power at the drop of a hat or saving all of it till near party wipe, having something less than dropping a planet on someone/thing or something they won't have to fret over replacing later might be a good alternative... of course, maybe I completely misunderstood what the resource management problem you mentioned was.
You're right on the money with those, and I'm slowly introducing them to the players as they progress. I'm just looking for more up-front methods for doing it as well.
A team of 3+ Psions with one having Affinity Field effectively have Inf PSP via Bestow Powers from the other 2. All they need are a few minutes of downtime between encounters to get full.
Hell, this can even be done solo with the right items/feats and a psi-crystal.
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Last edited by okpokalypse : 08-23-2010 at 03:34 PM.
I'd like to submit Wizard, Psion, and Erudite. With the various recharge tricks(Santum Lucubration, Psicrystal Leach, and Mental Pinnacle respectivly), they can last all day.
Dude, if we let them in, then we let in everybody, & there goes the whole premise of the thread. Each of the classes that you cited need cheese to fight against the fire-&-forget nature of their powers, which make them superb examples of what this list is NOT about. Yes, there are certain tricks that can, under certain circumstances, extend the firepower of a given caster; but finding ways to include every class isn't really the point.
The fighter, on the other hand, is built around the (flawed) premise that their capacity to fight indefinitely balances the casters' per-diem mechanics. They can swing their beat sticks all damn day, while the casters are (normally) forced to quit after their spells are spent.
You're right on the money with those, and I'm slowly introducing them to the players as they progress. I'm just looking for more up-front methods for doing it as well.
You could always introduce an NPC & quest to give them something along those lines with a bit less treasure from the quest itself. Possibly even add a cost to it, there are a few warforged feats that cost HP to use (shocking fist lets you add 1d4 electricity damage to the slam up to BaB at the cost of -1hp/1d4 damage to self, another heals them some and causes a debuff I forget the details on) so it's not completely out of nowhere.
Is the problem an arcane, divine, or melee type? can you give a bit more detail on the problem itself? You could always drop a couple eternal wands in the treasure tables (2 charge/day every day) if it might help.
Last edited by Tetrasodium : 08-23-2010 at 03:41 PM.
Is the problem an arcane, divine, or melee type? can you give a bit more detail on the problem itself? You could always drop a couple eternal wands in the treasure tables (2 charge/day every day) if it might help.
The problem is mostly on the caster side. I don't really make much of a distinction between Divine and Arcane, as they're both Vancian. Luckily most of my players are fairly enthusiastic about rebuilding characters, assuming that the fluff that they create still meshes with the available mechanics.
The biggest problem right now is the "blaster bard" who is trying to use direct damage spells and melee attacks, which results in sub-par performance relative to some of the more optimized players as well as a short operating lifetime in any given day.
The player is a little frustrated with it, but still wants to do the buffing thing. I was considering suggesting that they play a ToB class with some investment into the White Raven school.
Additionally, I have a player with a sorcerer that is almost exclusively focused on defensive personal spells who doesn't do the crowd control or blasty thing until after the situation gets really bad due to a fear of running out of spells.
For that player I was planning to suggest a binder, warlock, or binder/warlock/hellfire warlock.
The problem is mostly on the caster side. I don't really make much of a distinction between Divine and Arcane, as they're both Vancian. Luckily most of my players are fairly enthusiastic about rebuilding characters, assuming that the fluff that they create still meshes with the available mechanics.
The biggest problem right now is the "blaster bard" who is trying to use direct damage spells and melee attacks, which results in sub-par performance relative to some of the more optimized players as well as a short operating lifetime in any given day.
The player is a little frustrated with it, but still wants to do the buffing thing. I was considering suggesting that they play a ToB class with some investment into the White Raven school.
Additionally, I have a player with a sorcerer that is almost exclusively focused on defensive personal spells who doesn't do the crowd control or blasty thing until after the situation gets really bad due to a fear of running out of spells.
For that player I was planning to suggest a binder, warlock, or binder/warlock/hellfire warlock.
A reserved feat like acid splash(?)/force needle/etc that gives xd6 damage based on the level of memorized spells works great when combined with sneak attack. The "blaster bard" might find some kind of rogue/caster hybrid a good alternative, plenty of PrC's give partial sneak attack/caster progression. Even rogue with a level of wizard or sorcerer is enough to use a lot of the reserve feats. Giving the sorcerer one of the reserved feats would also solve his problems, no need to worry about running out of something they can use every round until they finally cast that last spell letting them use it.
For the Sorcerer player, perhaps a partial rebuild to introduce them to Binder. Anima mage could help out there. The Cha synergy would be useful.
As for the Bard...I think your suggestion of steering them toward White Raven is a good one. Shadow Hand and Desert wind offer a few blast effects if that is his style.
A reserved feat like acid splash(?)/force needle/etc that gives xd6 damage based on the level of memorized spells works great when combined with sneak attack. The "blaster bard" might find some kind of rogue/caster hybrid a good alternative, plenty of PrC's give partial sneak attack/caster progression. Even rogue with a level of wizard or sorcerer is enough to use a lot of the reserve feats.
If I'm playing a Rogue-type who wants to deliver sneak attack damage using a magical ranged touch attack, I'd much rather spend some skill ranks on Use Magic Device and buy some dirt-cheap wands of Acid Splash, rather than take a level in Sorcerer or Wizard and take a Reserve Feat. 1d3 damage isn't very different from 1d6 damage, and the investment is a lot less painful.
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As for the Bard...I think your suggestion of steering them toward White Raven is a good one. Shadow Hand and Desert wind offer a few blast effects if that is his style.
Unfortunately, no Tome of Battle class gives both Desert Wind and White Raven access (unless I'm forgetting some PrC that does. Well, of course Master of Nine does, but ... I doubt that's what you're going for?). How attached is your player to blasting?
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Originally Posted by subject42
Additionally, I have a player with a sorcerer that is almost exclusively focused on defensive personal spells who doesn't do the crowd control or blasty thing until after the situation gets really bad due to a fear of running out of spells.
For that player I was planning to suggest a binder, warlock, or binder/warlock/hellfire warlock.
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Originally Posted by WinWin
For the Sorcerer player, perhaps a partial rebuild to introduce them to Binder. Anima mage could help out there. The Cha synergy would be useful.
Anima Mage will be a strong choice ... eventually, but it gets its power slowly. And most of the Binder blasting abilities will be unimpressive on a character that starts off mainly as a Sorcerer.
Personally I love to just take the Dragonfire Adept and drop most of the dragon-specific flavor, and use that as a high-endurance Sorcerer class. Maybe your player won't be so worried about personal defensive magic when Constitution is his primary ability score and he has more HP than the rest of the party combined.
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You can call me Draz. Trophies:
Work on my homebrew system, CRE8, is still marching slowly onwards. I think I can see the light at the end of the tunnel -- an Alpha release -- in the distance now. Read my Design Goals here.
Yeah, I'll agree with Reserve feats for the Sorc and Crusader levels for the bard. These are great options and sound like they're designed for exactly your problem.
If I'm playing a Rogue-type who wants to deliver sneak attack damage using a magical ranged touch attack, I'd much rather spend some skill ranks on Use Magic Device and buy some dirt-cheap wands of Acid Splash, rather than take a level in Sorcerer or Wizard and take a Reserve Feat. 1d3 damage isn't very different from 1d6 damage, and the investment is a lot less painful.
Eh, Acid flasks are better due to splash (cheap too).
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Classes that Don't Run Out of Gas [3.5/PF]?
