The Gates of Heaven: Giving Celestia the Dicefreaks Treatment

[PairO'Dice Lost]

The Gates of Heaven: A Community Homebrewing Project

Introduction
There have been several threads in the Roleplaying Games forum in the past few days concerning Asmodeus, his power level, his origins, the Lower Planes' relationship to the Upper Planes, and so forth, culminating in a thread asking why Celestia doesn't get the same attention and treatment as Baator and the Abyss. After a bit of a tangent discussing the Dicefreaks treatment of Baator (the nine-part Gates of Hell PDF) and the fact that Dicefreaks' own Upper Planes project has seemingly been stalled indefinitely, it was suggested that the homebrewers here take on the project of doing the same for Celestia (and, if things turn out well and there's enough enthusiasm, possibly other planes as well).

That's where you come in, homebrewers. This thread is to be a place for interested parties to join the project, suggest topics to cover, call dibs on particular aspects they want to brew, and otherwise contribute to the project. Here's what we've decided to address thus far:

• Stat up the Hebdomad, the seven-archon council in charge of Celestia.
• Explore the Hebdomad's personalities, goals, etc.
• Stat up any minor Powers mentioned in the lore and/or create new ones to fit.
• Re-stat the existing archons to make their power level and capabilities more in line with the devils and demons of roughly equal purpose and CR.
• Explore archons' and Celestia's relationship with the Prime, the other Upper Planes, and the Lower Planes.
• Look at the nature of Lawful Good, Celestia's particular philosophies, and such to improve on the BoED take on things.
• Brew up PrCs for mortal aspirants/worshipers, feats for archons, and other pertinent homebrew.

Basically, if you're familiar with the Gates of Hell, Frank and K's Tome of Fiends, or other drastically-expand-the-flavor-and-background-and-rejigger-the-stats projects, you have an idea of what we're planning on doing.

A Note on Canonicity
The goal is to stick as close to the existing D&D lore as much as possible, so familiarity with 2e Planescape and 3e planar material on the celestials (such as it is) is desirable. However, don't feel constrained by this or hesitant due to lack of canon familiarity; you can always stat things up, provide suggestions, and so forth and let the Planescape buffs tie things together. Also, we will be avoiding the issue of the creation story, Jazirian, Asmodeus, and such as much as possible so as to allow people with differing takes on that to work on this project together without arguments getting in the way. As I proposed in the other thread, the best route is to express the general opinion of the archons regarding the origin of the Wheel with something along these lines:

Long ago, the universe was shaped. The devils spread propaganda about those days; the demons lie in any words that pass their lips; the daemons claim to agree with whatever theory is espoused by those in their company with which they wish to ingratiate themselves. The Lords of the Nine and the Hebdomad know the truth, and use that truth in their plans against their opposites, but the seven rulers of the Seven Mounting Heavens do not dwell on what was and what could have been. Regardless of the Lord of the Ninth's identity, regardless of the plots that rise from the depths of Hells, it is every archon's duty to advance the cause of Good against the devils wherever they rear their ugly heads.

...and leave determination of truth or falsehood of a given myth to individual DMs who use the material.

So without further ado, let's get homebrewing! I'm not "in charge" of this by any means, just the one who got the ball rolling, so feel free to speak your mind on any aspect of this and don't feel you have to ask permission to 'brew anything.

Homebrewers/Contributors
PairO'Dice Lost
blackjack217
hamishspence
DythTheKobold
Iamyourking
The Tygre
Eldan

Completed Materials Index
Courtesy of The Tygre

Archons
Lantern Archons
The Lanterns of Virtue - Lantern Archon Variants by Eldan
Hound Archons
- Bloodhound & Foxhound by Iamyourking
- Greyhound Archon by Iamyourking
- Retriever Archon by LOTRfan
Legion Archon by Iamyourking
The Archon High Castes by Iamyourking

Others
The Valorhammer by LOTRfan
The Spiral Archon by Iamyourking (Note: The Spiral Archon has no place in the established Archon hierarchy and is entirely silly to boot. It is here because it would be a shame to let any monster go to waste. )

The Hebdomad and Powers
Barachiel by Sir_Chivalry
- Stats by Unosarta
Powers
Azrael, Jophiel, and Melchizedek by Iamyourking
Melchior, Sachiel, and Duma by Eldan
Anorath, Azalon, and Leantes by blackjack217

The Celestial Hierarchy
Part I by PairO'Dice Lost
Part II by Iamyourking

Celestia
Lunia by Eldan

Classes
The Blessed Soul [Celestial Warlock variant] by blackjack217

Items
Staff of the Heavenly Seer by Unosarta

Other Materials
Abridged Gates of Hell by Iamyourking

[Dusk Eclipse]

I will follow this project and if I can I wil try to contribute, but I can't promise anything since my knowledge of Planescape and 2e (as a whole) is rather limited.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Originally Posted by Dusk Eclipse

I will follow this project and if I can I wil try to contribute, but I can't promise anything since my knowledge of Planescape and 2e (as a whole) is rather limited.

Like it says in the OP, you don't need to be discouraged by that. "Old-school cred" is only really needed for dredging up material from 2e and critiquing contributions--one of the reasons for the project is the lack of celestial material, so feel free to make up fluff for things to your heart's content. Stats, of course, can be done without much fluff knowledge at all; you make the archon, Planescape buffs will make the fluff.

[Iamyourking]

I actually started doing something like this myself, although it never got into a form that could be posted. However, I was using the classic Seraphim (along with Metatron and Sandalphon) to represent the highest echelons while relegating the Hebdomad to Cherub status. Still, I like Angels and Archons just as much as I do Devils and would be happy to provide what I already had written in addition to my efforts.

[Zaydos]

I'm willing to help with personalities and stats for the archons; also what if we aren't familiar with the Gates of Hell or Tome of Fiends?

[The Tygre]

Gates of Hell can be found at good ol' DiceFreaks. We might also be willing to salvage some stuff from A Light From on High if the old bloods will let us. Tome of Fiends is by Green Ronin; you can still get it PDF just about anywhere and print from LuLu. I -highly- recommend getting it, even if you have no investment in this project. It's on of the best, most vile, detailed, and flavorfully written monster books in all of d20, easily outweighing Fiend Folio.

Now before I agree to anything, what's this 'minor power' stuff here?

[Iamyourking]

I'd imagine things like the Cherubim or Thrones; powerful entities in their own right that serve the higher powers.

[blackjack217]

post rendered irrelevant by subsequent lore discussion.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Originally Posted by Iamyourking

I actually started doing something like this myself, although it never got into a form that could be posted. However, I was using the classic Seraphim (along with Metatron and Sandalphon) to represent the highest echelons while relegating the Hebdomad to Cherub status. Still, I like Angels and Archons just as much as I do Devils and would be happy to provide what I already had written in addition to my efforts.

Anything you can provide would be greatly appreciated; if nothing else, we could say the Seraphim are simply alternate names by which mortals know the Hebdomad and use them as-is. In fact, collecting any material that's already been posted here would probably help as well, if anyone wants to do that.

Originally Posted by Zaydos

I'm willing to help with personalities and stats for the archons; also what if we aren't familiar with the Gates of Hell or Tome of Fiends?

You don't really have to know that much about them; I was referring to the format and type of material contained therein moreso than the actual stats. You can download the PDFs and take a look at their templates to see what sorts of things are done to get the Hebdomad stats, but you don't need to be all that familiar with them.

Originally Posted by The Tygre

Gates of Hell can be found at good ol' DiceFreaks. We might also be willing to salvage some stuff from A Light From on High if the old bloods will let us. Tome of Fiends is by Green Ronin; you can still get it PDF just about anywhere and print from LuLu. I -highly- recommend getting it, even if you have no investment in this project. It's on of the best, most vile, detailed, and flavorfully written monster books in all of d20, easily outweighing Fiend Folio.

In fact, the Tome of Fiends I was referring to was the Frank and K version from WotC and the Gaming Den, since it's free to download like Gates of Hell is. I would still second Green Ronin's PDF, though I wasn't aware it was legally available for download.

Now before I agree to anything, what's this 'minor power' stuff here?

Originally Posted by Iamyourking

I'd imagine things like the Cherubim or Thrones; powerful entities in their own right that serve the higher powers.

That's right. Just like there are Dukes of Hell, there would be classifications of archons between the major Powers in charge of the various layers and aspects of Celestia and the run-of-the-mill archons.

[blackjack217]

Originally Posted by The Tygre

Gates of Hell can be found at good ol' DiceFreaks. We might also be willing to salvage some stuff from A Light From on High if the old bloods will let us. Tome of Fiends is by Green Ronin; you can still get it PDF just about anywhere and print from LuLu. I -highly- recommend getting it, even if you have no investment in this project. It's on of the best, most vile, detailed, and flavorfully written monster books in all of d20, easily outweighing Fiend Folio.

Now before I agree to anything, what's this 'minor power' stuff here?

Unique archons that are not members of the Hebdomad basically, the equivalent of the dukes of hell and the archfiends.
edit: nija'ed

[The Tygre]

Right then; you have my sword. I'd be willing to work with a team on Hebdomad and/or Power fluff. Anybody in?

[Iamyourking]

I already laid down some basics on the Seraphim, although they are a bit different than the established Hebdomad. In fact, I'll just post what I've got and we can decide from there what is useful.

Spoiler

Seraphim
Chamuel: Rules first heaven, embodies kindness. Weapon-Sword and shield. In charge of the petitioners.
Lieutenants: Barachiel, ???
Uriel: Rules second heaven, embodies courage. Weapon-Greatsword. In charge of Celestia’s forces.
Lieutenants: Raziel, Sabathiel
Jophiel: Rules third heaven, embodies wisdom. Weapon-Glaive. In charge of information flow, spy network, sages. Lieutenants: Erathaol, Domiel
Raphael: Rules fourth heaven, embodies love. Weapon-Greatbow. Duties-???.
Lieutenants: Pistis Sophia, ???
Zadkiel: Rules fifth heaven, embodies ???. Weapon-Twin swords. In charge of Celestia’s armies.
Lieutenants: ???, ???
Gabriel: Rules sixth heaven, embodies mercy. Weapon-mace and healing orb. In charge of general angel population.
Lieutenants: ???
Michael: Rules all heavens, embodies justice. Weapon-greatspear. In charge of Celestia as a whole and the Thrones.
Lieutenants: Zaphkiel, Melchizedek
Kerubim
Barachiel: Chief messenger and leader of the Principalities
Domiel: Spymaster
Erathaol: Master librarian of Heaven
Pistis Sophia: ???
Raziel: Commander of the crusades, co-general of the Powers
Sabathiel: Commander of the vanguard, co-general of the Powers
Zaphkiel: Herald of the Illuminated Heaven
Melchizedek: Chief judge and master of the Dominions
Hierarchy
Michael: Rules Celestia
Other Seraphim: Rule each of the heavens
Kerubim: Perform vital tasks and report directly to Seraphim, rule each of the Tasks.
Thrones: General governing body, three from each layer. Leader is Michael.
Dominions: In charge of cities and major settlements. Leader is Melchizedek.
Virtues: Highest rank that works with mortals, embodiments of alignments and Heavenly Virtues.
Powers: Elite military forces; special forces, military officers, protectors of mortals. Leaders are Raziel and Sabathiel.
Principalities: Patrons of mortal civilizations. Leader is Barachiel.
Archangels: Vague term for powerful Celestials who aren’t in one of the Tasks; planetars, solars, throne archons, exceptional astral devas and trumpet archons
Angels: General population, rank and file in the armies, patrons of individual mortals

Important Fallen Angels
Beelzebul: Once called Triel, former leader of Dominions and leader of the revolt. Now ruler of Seventh Hell.
Eblis: Former general of the Powers and co-leader of the revolt. Cast to Hell but refused to serve any master, now lives on Elemental Plane of Fire.
Belial: High ranking Virtue, known for healing. Turned down promotion to lead Virtues to camouflage his secret abuses of mortals. Chief lieutenant to Beelzebul during the rebellion, now rule of Fourth Hell.
Moloch: Powerful angel who became important subordinate to Beelzebul. Cast down with the rest and ruled Sixth Hell for a brief period of time. Now on the run from agents of Lillith and Beelzebul.

So basically I needed to devise 5 more Cherubim, along with jobs for Pistis Sophia and Raphael.

I can also provide my statblock and text for Sandalphon, which took second in the January homebrew competition.

Spoiler

Sandalphon, the Hand of God
Colossal Outsider (angel, extraplanar, good, lawful)
Hit Dice: 56d8+1229 (1652 hp)
Initiative: +17 (+9 dex, +8 Superior Initiative)
Speed: 160 ft. (32 squares), Fly 480 ft. (Good)
Armor Class: 57 (-8 size, +10 armor, +21 natural armor, +14 Wis, +9 Dex, +1 dodge), touch 26, flatfooted 47
Base Attack/Grapple: 56/137
Attack: Unarmed strike +92 melee (10d8+43+3d6 (holy)+2d6 (axiomatic) 19-20/+9d6 (holy) +1d6 and 3 negative levels)
Full Attack: Flurry of Blows +92/92/92/87/82/77 (10d8+43+3d6 (holy)+2d6 (axiomatic) 19-20/+9d6 (holy) +1d6 and 3 negative levels)
Space/Reach: 40 ft./40 ft.
Special Attacks: Improved grab, spell-like abilities, Wrath of God
Special Qualities: Blindsight to 200 ft, damage reduction 35/epic, anarchic, and evil, darkvision to 60 ft, Godly Aura, Hands of God, immunity to ability damage, ability drain, acid, cold, instant death, mind-affecting, polymorph, and sonic, low-light vision, outsider traits, regeneration 20, resistance to fire and electricity 20, spell resistance 69, telepathy 1000, tongues
Saves: Fort +55, Ref +39, Will +44
Abilities: Str 96 (+43), Dex 29 (+9), Con 60 (+25), Int 24 (+7), Wis 38 (+14), Cha 20 (+5)
Skills: Appraise +7, Balance +70, Bluff +5, Climb +102, Concentration +25, Diplomacy +5, Disguise +5, Escape Artist +68, Forgery +7, Gather Information +5, Heal +73, Hide -7, Intimidate +64, Jump +156, Knowledge (Religion) +66, Knowledge (the planes) +66, Listen +73, Move Silently +9, Ride +9, Search +66, Sense Motive +14, Spot +73, Survival +73 (+75 on the Planes or to follow tracks), Swim +102, Tumble +70, Use Rope +9 (+11 for bindings).
Feats: Awesome Blow, Cleave, Combat Brute¹, Combat Reflexes, Deflect Arrows, Dodge, Great Cleave, Improved Critical (Unarmed Strike), Improved Grapple, Improved Initiative, Power Attack, Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike)
Epic Feats: Dire Charge, Infinite Deflection, Legendary Wrestler, Overwhelming Critical (Unarmed strike), Reflect Arrows, Spellcasting Harrier², Superior Initiative
Environment: Seven Mounting Heavens of Celestia
Organization: Solitary (Unique) or with Metatron)
Challenge Rating: 42
Treasure: See possessions
Alignment: Lawful Good
Advancement: None
Level Adjustment: -

Standing before you is a massive figure of heroic proportions. A brilliant light radiates from his skin of polished bronze, which shines in the corona. Four gleaming silver wings arch from his broad back, each covered in feathers that look to be as sharp as razors and as strong as iron. His body is draped in a loose tunic of white cloth, and a kilt of the same material reaches down to just above his knees. Even for his great size, his power is obvious; with great muscles that bring to mind a god of strength bulging from his mighty arms. Despite his bulk he moves with great grace; his feet barely seeming to touch the ground as he moves. His handsome face shows grim determination as he surveys you; as if determining your fate. For a second you can see the piercing gaze of an eagle, the strength of an ox, and the nobility of a lion in his features before he turns away.

The heavens are a place of war. Certainly this war is done in just cause; to defend beings all across the cosmos from the ravening hordes of the Tanar’ri, the traitorous and malevolent forces of the Yuguloths, and above all else the fearsome legions of the Baatezu; but the hosts of the upper planes are always at war nonetheless. This has lead to a great deal of angels who are great warriors and fierce fighters, seasoned in a thousand battles, but there is one who even Michael, the King of Heaven, will acknowledge as his superior in combat. This is Sandalphon.
Sandalphon is the mightiest angel in Celestia and the personal champion of the mysterious entity who rules the holy peak. He is known as the Hand of God in this role, quite a literal title due to his mighty fists and unparalled unarmed fighting ability. It is he who has slain more fiends than any other, who broke the spine of the Dark Titan Paelogios, who cast down Baalzebul, Belial, Appolyon, Eblis, and countless other mighty angels who had fallen from grace.
He is among the oldest of angels, created at the same time as his brother Metatron; minutes before Michael, Gabriel, Zadkiel, Uriel, Chamuel, Raphael, and Jophiel; and many years before the common angels and archons. His great age makes his exact origins unknown, but it is said that he and Metatron are two halves of the being they serve. Unlike Primus and Asmodeus, who are avatars of incomprehensibly powerful beings of pure law, Sandalphon and Metatron are the embodiments of their virtuous brother’s body and mind. As such, they are tied together closer than any two beings; each feeling everything that the other does and sees.
It is rare for Sandalphon to deal with mortals, since even the blackest of villains are far beneath his notice. On occasion he is beseeched by mortal champions for strength and courage, and usually grants it through his Miracle spell-like ability. Otherwise though, he is mostly consumed with battling fiends and traveling the outer planes to keep the peace; he knows that it is likely that he would inadvertently cause much destruction were he to go to the Material Plane due to his huge size. This is why he is rarely summoned into the Material Plane, since few casters possess the resources to summon him into a structure that he would actually fit in and a ritual of the complexity needed to summon such a powerful creature could not be practically done outside.
He is on good terms with the majority of the Celestial Nobility, having repulsed fiendish attacks from their planes on multiple locations. In particular he is close allies with Uriel, since both of them take great pleasure in righteous battle. He is more distant towards most non-Lawful Good angels, but will not hesitate to help them if they call; Oberon and Titania are both particularly inscrutable to him. Neutral outsiders are dealt with much more rarely and his opinion of them is often dependant of their position on the ethical axis. Since they are not enemies or allies he rarely has any reason to interact with them; although Metatron occasionally heads diplomatic missions to Primus. He hates all fiends, in particular demons; but is experienced enough to know that the real threat lies with the devils. Their sense of purpose and organization means that they are the primary attractors of fallen angels, and Sandalphon never misses a chance to punish the Fallen. His hatred of demons means that he will kill them if he gets the chance, but the petty scope of their evil makes them uncommon targets and ensures that he has no real personal hatred of any Demon Lords. He has a sort of grudging respect for Alastor, who he has fought to a draw on multiple occasions, and seeks above all to destroy Beelzebub, who led the rebellion that produced so many of the Fallen.
Sandalphon appears as a massively muscled giant with bronze skin. Unlike the gross musculature of his rivals in strength though, he is perfectly proportioned and resembles a classical statue rather than a hulking monster. Like all of the great angels, he has four wings at ninety degree angles allowing him to fly with great speed and maneuverability for such a large creature. He does not carry any weapons, trusting in his mighty strength to be enough to crush his foes, and wears only a white surplice that always remains clean despite any limbs snapped and bodies pulverized around it. Sandalphon is 98 feet tall and weighs more than a thousand tons due to his extreme muscle density.

Combat:
Sandalphon greatly enjoys combat with fiends and will not hesitate to enter the fight, pummeling and smashing everything in his way. He casts Spell Immunity, Haste, and Mind Blank on himself before the fight and then charges into combat; opening with Holy Word and Greater Dispel Magic. Anything stunned by Holy Word is easy prey for him to attack with his Flurry of Blows, those outright killed by it were in no danger of hurting him. If surrounded, he uses Awesome Blow and his flight to disengage; obvious spellcasters are grappled and crushed as soon as possible.
If reduced to less than half health, he teleports out and uses Heal to restore himself back to full. He then summons Solars to assist him and goes back into the fight with Greater Invisibility and Kinetic Control going. If truly pressed, he summons Metatron and uses his Wrath of God ability on the most dangerous opponent. If the two of them are unable to win, they retreat back to Celestia to recover and plan a second assault; nobody has ever lasted long enough to warrant this.

Call Angels (SU): As a standard action Sandalphon can call angels. He may attempt to call up to three times a day, 3 solars, 7 planetars, or 14 of any lesser angel or archon. Since they are called rather than summoned they may summon other angels or archons as they wish. Once per day, he can call his brother Metatron or any of the Seraphim.

Godly Aura (Su): Like all Angels, Sandalphon possesses a protective aura that shields himself and others from harm. As befits an entity of his stature though, the aura is much more powerful. It provides a +8 deflection bonus to his AC and a +8 resistance bonus to his saves along with the effects of a Globe of Invulnerability to a radius of 40 ft at caster level 49. The bonuses provided by the Aura are not factored into his statblock.

Hands of God (Ex): Sandalphon’s legendary unarmed ability reflects his title of the Hand of God. All of his natural weapons are incorporated into a fighting style similar to a mortal monk’s but far more deadly. Instead of natural weapons, he has the unarmed strike ability of a 20th level monk of Colossal size. In addition, like a monk, he adds his Wisdom modifier to his Armor Class. His fists are treated as if they have the Holy Power, Axiomatic, and Ghost Touch abilities and as if they were made of adamantine and cold iron. This is an Extraordinary ability and as such functions even in anti-magic zones. Finally, he can crush the life from those that he grapples. Once he has established a pin, he deals an additional 14d10+61 damage per round that he maintains the grapple.

Regeneration (Ex): Sandalphon takes damage from epic evil weapons, and from spells or effects with the evil descriptor.

Smite Evil (Su): 7/day Sandalphon can Smite Evil. This works like the Paladin ability of the same name, adding 5 to his attack role and 56 to his damage.

Spell-like Abilities: At will-detect evil, detect magic, dimensional anchor, dispel evil, greater dispel magic, greater teleport (Self plus 500 pounds), haste, heal, holy word, improved invisibility, mind blank, plane shift, spell immunity; 3/day-miracle, power word kill, storm of vengeance; 1/day-kinetic control, intensified crushing hand. Caster Level 49th. Saves are 24+spell level. The save DCs are Wisdom-based.

Wrath of God (Su): 1/week Sandalphon can fully unleash his divine power with a blow. This hit deals an extra 77d10 points of divine damage that cannot be resisted or stopped in any way. Once he has carried out the blow, his fists lose their enchantments and he is exhausted for the next day.

Possessions: Sandalphon wears the Bracers of Heavenly Power, which combine the effects of Bracers of Relentless Might and Bracers of Armor +10. The size bonuses they provide are not capped at size Colossal.

Lore:
Characters with ranks in Knowledge (Religion) or Knowledge (The Planes) may know of Sandalphon. When the character makes a skill check, the following lore is revealed, including the information from lower DCs.

DC	Lore
66	Sandalphon is the strongest being in the Heavens, if not all the planes, and is the personal champion of a mysterious entity who reigns at the top of Celestia
71	Sandalphon spends much of his time doing battle with creatures from the lower planes and claims to be the twin brother of another giant angel named Metatron
76	Sandalphon is one of the oldest living beings in the universe, having been present at the creation of Mount Celestia, and predates the entirety of the Heavenly Choir
81	Sandalphon and Metatron are two halves of their master, who was sundered during the creation of the Upper Planes. Sandalphon is their master’s strength and courage.

Plot Hooks:
One of the party members has somehow earned the ire of Sandalphon, they must evade him while the rest of the group seeks an audience with Metatron to protest his brother’s aggression

Sandalphon has chased a fallen angel down to Baator but became the prisoner of Asmodeus. The King of Hell is willing to strike a deal for his release, but who knows what he will ask in return.

¹ From Complete Warrior
² From the Draconomicon

Again, anything that doesn't fit with what you had planned can be altered.

[Fail]

In the Tome of Fiends' fine tradition, the Book of Elements is being made by IGTN - might provide further inspiration.

[The Tygre]

Sophia is easy. Just look up her full name. Don't worry; we're on no shortage there. Raphael is generally considered an angel of peace, healing, and magic. I also think we need to lay down some basic criteria for the rest of the Upper Planes. Who's in charge of the angels, and are there any other members of the Court of Stars? The guardinals are covered, but I always thought they weren't really up to the task as exemplars of NG.

[Iamyourking]

I already have Raphael marked as the Seraph of Love, I meant more of what he would do other than rule the 4th Heaven. For instance, Uriel is in charge of the army and Jophiel is in charge of espionage and knowledge. I also need a virtue for Zadkiel (Not necessarily one of the Seven Heavenly Virtues).

As for other Good outsiders, I always though Oberon and Titania should be the leaders of the CG outsiders. Still, we've got enough going on with LG; we should probably hold off on the other alignments.

[NineThePuma]

I'm willing to help with feedback, fluff analysis/writing, etc... But my knowledge of the planes is more heavily focused on Baator. I can provide feedback logically, but not from the past.

I am a wellspring of ideas when I'm not being odd.


Before we focus on any of the players/characters, we need to look at positions and organization. I also highly recommend making some distinctions between the different Good outsiders: we have Archons, Guardinals, and Eladrin, plus Angels. That feels very over-Killy to me, but I'm odd and I realize evil has 4. But a distinctive note on the different structure is good.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Originally Posted by DythTheKobold

Before we focus on any of the players/characters, we need to look at positions and organization. I also highly recommend making some distinctions between the different Good outsiders: we have Archons, Guardinals, and Eladrin, plus Angels. That feels very over-Killy to me, but I'm odd and I realize evil has 4. But a distinctive note on the different structure is good.

One thing to note is that the fiends have devils (LE), daemons (NE), gehreleths (N[C]E), and demons (CE), while the aasimon have archons (LG), guardinals (NG), eladrin (CG), and angels (any good), so it's not entirely symmetrical. With the angels being "above" (or at least outside) the organization of any given Upper Plane, at least mentioning them or taking them into account somehow in the Celestia writeup would be a good idea.

[Zodiac]

Wikipedia gives a decent, if short, overview of Celestia, can't verify if its true though. It could be a decent jumping point though.

[Zaydos]

Gehreleths are also a very small species related to the lower castes of the yugoloths (they were made by a crazy baernoloth).

While Solars are a distinct group above archons, eladrins, and guardinals.

That's a pretty big difference.

[NineThePuma]

So, Angels are (Any Good)? Let's slap them in as the servants of good gods. They're outside the hierarchy completely.

[Zaydos]

Originally Posted by DythTheKobold

So, Angels are (Any Good)? Let's slap them in as the servants of good gods. They're outside the hierarchy completely.

That's the fluff on Devas way back in the 1e MMII, and on Solars in the 1st Planescape Monstrous Compendium; it was only later that they became unaffiliated with the gods (partially as a result of D&D in general downplaying the gods role).

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Originally Posted by Zaydos

Gehreleths are also a very small species related to the lower castes of the yugoloths (they were made by a crazy baernoloth).

While Solars are a distinct group above archons, eladrins, and guardinals.

That's a pretty big difference.

That too. The important point is that angels can be found in Celestia and do things for LG Powers, but they aren't native to Celestia and aren't subject to those Powers' rule in particular, so while they wouldn't be part of the main writeup they should definitely be mentioned where appropriate.

[Lord_Gareth]

I'd be willing to venture into the murky and dangerous waters of exploring what it should really mean to be Good-aligned.

If, that is, the build team agrees with a Good-aligned character who's willing to, say, kill one innocent to save a thousand more. My views are, at times, polarizing.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Originally Posted by Lord_Gareth

I'd be willing to venture into the murky and dangerous waters of exploring what it should really mean to be Good-aligned.

If, that is, the build team agrees with a Good-aligned character who's willing to, say, kill one innocent to save a thousand more. My views are, at times, polarizing.

Anything you're willing to contribute we're (or at least I'm) willing to at least consider. And hey, it can't possibly be worse than BoED, right?

[Zaydos]

There were good parts of the BoED... it's just most of it was horribly, unusably bad.

[Lord_Gareth]

I suppose I should ask this - do you want Celestia's ideals specifically, or more generalized work on Law, Good, and how they combine? 'Cause there's Arcadia between the Heavens and Mechanus...

[The Tygre]

Really either way could work. Celestia is an infinite plane, so it makes sense that there would be lots of different sects based on different viewpoints of lawful good. Which means they need an inquisitor. Which means we get to bring Dominic from In Nomine to Celestia. >8D I've got some... stuff to salvage. I'll be back.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Originally Posted by Lord_Gareth

I suppose I should ask this - do you want Celestia's ideals specifically, or more generalized work on Law, Good, and how they combine? 'Cause there's Arcadia between the Heavens and Mechanus...

Both would be good; Law and Good would set the groundwork for how Celestia relates to the other lawful and good planes, while a treatment of Celestia's philosophy in particular would set a framework for the Hebdomad's goals and such.

[blackjack217]

Originally Posted by Zaydos

There were good parts of the BoED... it's just most of it was horribly, unusably bad.

They were not giving advice to good characters they were giving advice to exalted ones... all of whom were apparently insufferable prats. Still its an important distinction to be made.
My 8th of the 7, despite being based on the codex and BoED, is not like that at all. His philosophy can be summed up with: for my men. So any tactic: ambush, poison, misinformation, phsyops ect are all fair game. He will readily admit to fighting dirty because it is his duty as their commander to bring everyone home alive. It is impossible as he well knows but that does not mean he will not try. That said the corruption of himself or his men, or the taking of hostages will not be permitted by himself or by his men.

[blackjack217]

Uh... hey Iamyourking is it just me or is your version of celestia incredibly heavily and blatantly based on Christian mythos and biblical references? If so you might want to tone it down. Like say by changing some names or something.