Warhammer 40K Tabletop XI: "More Threads than your Tactical Squad has room for!"

**Cheesegear** · 2011-03-29, 09:07 PM (ISO 8601)

New thread time!

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Cheesegear presents Cheesegear's Newbie Guide on How to pick Warhammer 40K army, by Cheesegear (and contributors).

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Disclaimer: This is not a guide to say which armies are 'better' than other armies. Except in hyperbole. The 'stars' notation is for what Newbies should play. By no means does this mean that you shouldn't play Chaos Daemons. It means that if you're a new player and don't fully understand the rules to the game, it might be hard to make Daemons work.

Any unit that gets specifically mentioned is a stand-out unit, or will represent a 'must-have' unit that the army has.

General Advice for all armies;

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Where possible, you should always talk to a GW Staff Member. No, you don't have to actually listen to or do anything they say. But, you should at least talk to them so they can point you in at least a general direction. Don't buy anything on your first trip into the store. GW Staff are very persuasive, and you can - or will - often end up buying something you don't even want.
If and when you do finally decide on an army, play a few games in an actual GW Store using the Store's models. Otherwise, where possible, use proxy models. This will give you a basic understanding of most of the rules and the turn sequence and a general idea of how your army-of-choice plays. Or, at least give you an idea that an army or unit that you thought was cool, really isn't. Or maybe that particular army just isn't for you. And that unit that 'looks cool' doesn't fit your play style.
Read a Codex. Whatever gets said on the internet, means absolutely nothing if you don't have a Codex to understand what's being said. This ties into the above in that it's kind of important that you have played a few games and know the rules.
GW doesn't mention it all that much, but; You don't have to use your army's Codex for your army. For example; It's perfectly reasonable to, say, use the Chaos Space Marine Codex to represent a 1st Company of Loyalist Marines. You can, in fact, use Imperial Guard models to represent Tau, or Eldar. Just so long as your models look suitably awesome and your models conform to the rules of a different list (the WYSIWYG rule). If you can also give a background justification - or 'fluffy' reason - for why your Imperial Guard are wielding Shuriken or Pulse Rifles; Even better!
In regards to the above; 'Counts as' models can generally be shown to be a fluffy reason for why you have what you have. So, maybe your Imperial Guard regiment has a lot of Ogryns. You can use an Ogryn-holding-a-Lascannon as your 'Heavy Weapon Team'. As long as it's WYSIWYG, and at least makes a passing attempt at conforming to the rules (such as base size/shape), nobody cares. However, GW really doesn't like it when you come into their store and start using a different company's miniatures to play a GW game. However, making a scratch-build from Green Stuff and Plasticard is totally okay. Just so long as you aren't giving their competitors money, eh?
With that said; Painting, Green Stuff, Plasticard and Conversions in general, the only way to get better at it, is to practice. Start easy, start small. Start with adding cloaks to troops. Large, rectangular pieces of Green Stuff. Easy. Maybe you'll be confident to add textures. Ability comes with practice. And, there are literally dozens of tutorials to be found on YouTube. And hundreds of tutorials just about everywhere else.
Less is more. Don't try to equip your unit to do everything. Assign your units to fulfill a role, and let them do it. Don't waste points on things you aren't going to use.
Bodies are far more important than Wargear. Do not spend 100 extra points on Wargear, if you could otherwise spend 100 points on buying a whole unit. Wargear is not a substitute for models. Well, it is. But, it's a poor substitute.
In regards to the above two points, very rarely, should you spend more than 200 points on a single model (such as an HQ model), or 300 points on a single unit.
Troops. Win. Games. Do not, under any circumstances, skimp out on your Troops selection. More often than not they are the cheapest unit in the Codex, and, Troops are the only units who can capture an objective. Any unit can contest an objective, but, only Troops can claim objectives. All contesting objectives will do is get you is a Draw.
Assault on Black Reach. Bad for Space Marine players. Good for Ork Players.
Vehicles and You.
Cheesegear's Speaking Of Tournaments.... General themes to consider when attending a competitive arena.
To Tailor Your List Or Not To Tailor
Wraith's Handy-Dandy Guide to Painting and Assembling an Army
Closet_Skeleton says:
"Every Troops choice you spend on a non-Scoring unit is Troops choice wasted."
How To Write An Army List | Sample
Should you buy a Battleforce? In most cases, yes.

Guide to Armies

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Space Marines (Codex Marines, SMs):

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Pros: Space Marines are the eponymous 40K army. They are the army by which all other armies are judged. Just about all their units can be outfitted in many different ways to fulfill many different roles (but, in regards to General Advice, they should only try to do one thing at a time). With few exceptions, the entire army selection is plastic for easy conversions and assembly (and, most of the metal models you don't even need). As plastics, the army is also relatively cheap to buy.
GW Staff are extremely knowledgeable on all things Space Marine.
Troops unit choice with the ability to Infiltrate and have Sniper Rifles.
Power Armour and Bolters.

Cons: Honestly, none. Save for the common misinformation that GW Staff will tell you to get you to buy certain units and sets (like Assault on Black Reach). But, this is by no means bad. As a Space Marine is a Space Marine. And pretty much all the units in the Codex can be useful one way or another.
One such example is that there is a growing proportion of Space Marine players who feel - despite the fluff and the statline - that Scout Squads are superior to Tactical Squads (the reason why is outside the scope of this guide).
The only truly bad thing about Space Marines, is that everybody has them. GW sells them at every opportunity. All starter sets ever produced by GW has contained Space Marines as one of the 'learner' armies. By extension, a lot of people turn to Space Marines because that's what they learned the game with, but, what they don't realise, is that the Assault on Black Reach starter kit is weak.

Recommendation for Newbs; *****. But the Assault on Black Reach kit isn't a good start to a Space Marine army. GW likes misinformation.
* or ** depending on whether or not you care about being 'just like everyone else'.
What's so bad about AoBR?

Codex Space Marines theoretically allows you to build 7 different 'themes' of Space Marines (even though it's 6) based around what colours and which Special Characters you like. However, any special character can be used in any Chapter, painted any colour that you choose. So, really, what Chapter you choose is kind of irrelevant since you can use other Chapters' special characters anyway.

The common belief is that 'Space Marines is Space Marines'. They all have Power Armour and Bolters. All of the above applies to the below;
Dark Angels: Outdated Codex. A few minor differences. Many people are best off going with Codex Marines rather than playing by Dark Angels rules. The only reason to play Dark Angels is for Ravenwing. And, even then, sometimes you might be better off with Codex Marines with a 'Captain on Bike'. *
Black Templars: Outdated Codex. Slightly more focused on close combat. With some unique rules. ***
Space Wolves: Space Wolves are actually the 'most fair' list out of all the Space Marine variants. They're a solid list. They have no actual 'bad' or 'trap' units. ****
Blood Angels: The only real difference in the List is more options to take Jump Packs, Fast vehicles, and a slight bonus to Deep Striking. Staggeringly similar to Codex Marines otherwise and you wont actually lose much by playing Blood Angels. ****

If you don't understand just what it is that makes these Chapters unique as opposed Codex Marines (read their respective Codecies), or you don't like or don't plan on using what makes them unique; You're better off sticking to Codex Marines. You can still paint your Space Marines as Blood Angels and use Codex Marines.

Chaos Space Marines (Chaos Marines, CSMs):

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Like Space Marines, but Evil. So, just about everything that applies to Space Marines applies to Chaos Space Marines.
Pros: Chaos Space Marines are slightly more focused on close combat than their Imperial counterparts - but, by no means to they have to be. CSMs are not necessarily 'better' than regular SMs. Just...Different. Each faction has different toys at their disposal.
There are a variety of different ways you can outfit your squads, and it's kind of difficult to find any two CSM armies the same.
Power Armour and Bolters.
Converting your 'Starter Box' Space Marine army to Chaos Marines is fairly easy. Just add spikes and arrows and mutations.

Cons: There are options in the Codex. Too many options some say. It's very easy to get confused on what or what not to get for your squads and characters. And it's even easier to go overboard on wargear and skills and the like (remember; Wargear != Bodies).
CSMs are also a fairly commonly seen army as they cater to the people who want to play Space Marines, but, think that 'Evil is Cool'. Some do consider who they get associated with as a bad thing.
The 'some of everything' approach that a lot of new players have when collecting their armies doesn't really work for Chaos Marines. Most of the time, you're best off going all-out on one or two of the Cult units (below).

Recommendation for Newbies: ****

Chaos Space Marines (Cults):

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Contributions supplied by Winterwind, DaedalusMkV and unknowingly by Myatar Panwar

World Eaters/Khorne-based/Beserkers:
Lots of attacks...Aaand...That's about it. Khorne Beserkers have WS 5 and also gain Furious Charge, meaning that when Assaulting, they're hitting and wounding most things on 3s and 2/3s. Their initiative 5 (when Assaulting) helps them a lot when they can strike before most enemies and kill them before they get attacks back. Khorne Berzerkers are fairly good at what they do, but, their individual unit effectiveness is directly proportional to their opponent's armour save.
Meaning, that, for the most part, you need lots of Beserkers. Lots. Khorne Beserker armies also don't function very well without Rhinos, as their only ranged weapons are Pistols. So, this is a lot of currency. On top of which; As they lack ranged weapons, Obliterators, Vindicators and Defilers are almost required for the army.
Khorne Lords and Daemon Princes are considered to be the least efficient. The Daemon Weapon gives you double the chance to hurt yourself. As well as +2D6 Power Weapon attacks is pretty much overkill. You don't really need that many.
Their special character - Kharn - is quite good though.
*** You will need Rhinos. Luckily, Berzerkers come in boxes of 12 (which is more than the other Cult units) and are plastic. Which is good.

Thousand Sons/Tzeentch-based:
All models with the Mark of Tzeentch gain an Invulnerable save. Or, their save gets improved if they already have one. This makes Tzeentch-based lists very tough to kill on the outset.
Onto specialised units; Thousand Sons are a Troop choice that comes with a 4+ invulnerable save, and have AP3 Bolters. Perfect for objective-squatting. This also makes them deadly in ranged firefights - and their invulnerable save makes them hard to kill on the return. Being Slow and Purposeful, it's a good idea to get as much use our their Bolters as you can get.
Thousand Sons also have a Sorcerer as their 'Sergeant'. Chaos Psychic Powers being as they are, this is quite good, as most 'shooting' powers tend to be AP3 or better, or allow no save at all. The Sorcerer also comes with a Force Weapon (add Warptime for fun). Meaning units with an Independent Character kind of need to think twice before Assaulting Thousand Sons units.
However, units without Independent Characters (that you can't target), and other dedicated Assault units will have an easy time. As Thousand Sons are the worst Assault unit in the Codex. But, this isn't saying a whole lot, as they're still Space Marines.
Tzeentch Daemon Princes and Sorcerers are quite good, able to choose and use two powers in the same turn. As well as receiving a better Invulnerable save. Tzeentch Lords are 'okay'. The Tzeentch special character - Ahriman - is pretty good. But, far too overpoints'd.
*** Thousand Sons boxes are expensive. But, you get plenty in a box.

Emperor's Children/Slaanesh-based/Noise Marines:
Marks of Slaanesh add to Initiative. This means pretty much everything in the CSM army will be functioning at Initiative 5. If you're unit holds Power Weapons, you can do a lot of damage before your opponent even gets to attack.
Noise Marines. Are. Amazing. Sonic Blasters are essentially Storm Bolters that get an extra shot if you're standing still. A Blastmaster, is a S8, AP3 Blast weapon that causes Pinning. Do you want yet? Just before Assaulting, the Noise Marine Champion has access to a S5, AP3 Flamer. This will kill things dead. Then Assault, at Initiative 5 (if you're opponent didn't fail their Morale check from you shooting the crap out of them, that is) and you can do some serious damage.
Daemon Princes and Sorcerers gain Lash of Submission. Usually considered one of the more unfair psychic powers as it allows you to move your opponent's models. Where? Into Dangerous Terrain, out of their precious cover, towards your own models into Assault range, or even just moving their Heavy Weapon team out of LoS.
Chaos Lords with Blissgiver are perfect Character killers as with 3+D6 attacks and Initiative 6, they only need to cause one wound (with a 'Power Weapon') to kill pretty much anything they want.
Lucius the Eternal is just as good as - if not better than - Kharn. And doesn't even cost that many points.
**** The Noise Marine box doesn't come with with many Sonic Blasters. They are, however, available in bulk from Mail Order. But, they're not that important. You're really only getting Noise Marines for Blastmasters and Doom Sirens.

Death Guard/Nurgle-based/Plague Marines:
Extra Toughness. Might not seem like much. But, it's (usually) the most expensive Mark for units that can take it for a reason. Works best on models in Terminator Armour or models on Bikes.
Plauge Marines are pretty much exactly the same as regular Chaos Marines, except with Toughness 5 and Feel No Pain. They're extremely hard to kill. On top of which, they have Defensive Grenades. And that's pretty good. Aaand...That's about it actually. Not much can be said about Plague Marines except exactly that.
The Mark of Nurgle is mostly wasted on Daemon Princes as they don't really need the extra Toughness compared to what else they could take and Sorcerers on gain access to Nurgle's Rot, which, again, compared to other powers, isn't that great. As Nurgle's Rot works best in close combat. But, Nurgle Sorcerers only get one psychic power per turn. So, it's Nova, or use the Force Weapon.
On Chaos Lords (especially in Terminator Armour), the Mark of Nurgle is alright. Giving access to a reasonably good Daemon Weapon.
The special character for Death Guard is Typhus. He's pretty damn good. Opinion appears to be divided on whether or not he's worth the points. He has Wind of Chaos, and Nurgle's Rot (otherwise known as Nurgle's Nova). And he auto-passes all psychic tests when using those powers. As well as having the Nurgle-based Daemon Weapon, that also counts as a Force Weapon. As well as Terminator Armour and Defensive Grenades. Whether you like him or not is your choice.
**** Plague Marines are pretty boring for options. But, Toughness 5 and Feel No Pain are really, really good. And the Mark of Nurgle is usually the most expensive Mark for those who would get any real use out of it.

Tyranids ('Nids):

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If you think of the movie Alien, or Starship Troopers, Tyranids aren't far off the mark.
Pros: Tyranids are primarily seen as a close combat swarm army. The big Tyranids are extremely customisable and immensely powerful in whatever role you want to give them (but you should only choose one role at a time, remember), and, the smaller Tyranids come in massive numbers designed to make your opponent crap themselves on just how many bodies you can put on the table. The Tyranids also possess one of the most deadly close combat units in the entire game.
A Troops choice that can Infiltrate.
Most of the army is plastic. And, many of the metal models you only need a few of. So, per box, Tyranids are pretty cheap. Also, the Tyranid Battleforce is generally considered the 'best' one. Although, it's definitely recommended by most of the internet that you get two.

Cons: Like CSMs, it's often possible to overload your Monstrous Creatures with too many biomorphs (wargear), which gets expensive. Fast. And, many of the smaller Tyranids are designed for one unchangeable role. The smaller Tyranids can't adapt their units for what they want to do. A Tyranid army is usually seen as very shooty-heavy, or very assault-heavy. It very - extremely rarely - can be both. Often, trying to be both is actually a detriment to the Tyranid army.

Without the bigger Tyranids to back them up, the smaller Tyranids suddenly become a lot more vulnerable, partly because they already have low toughness and high armour saves to begin with. Therefore, you may need to spend a bit of money on the larger, more expensive models.
As a swarm army, box-per-box, you also don't get very many points in each box. This means you'll probably have to end up spending a lot of money to get a decent amount of points onto the table.

Also, like SMs and CSMs, if a 14 year old kid isn't playing SMs or CSMs, then they're playing Tyranids.

Reccomendation for Newbies: ** to ****. Depending on how much real-world currency you have to spend. If you don't have a lot of money, you wont be able to field a lot of bodies or acquire the larger Monstrous Creatures. If you can field ~50 Termagants and 50 Hormagaunts per battle and have Monstrous Creatures to back them up...Good.

Eldar:

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Elves. In SPAAACE!
Pros: The Eldar boast a 'swiss army knife' army. They have a unit for everything and every unit can do their job well. Each and every unit looks vastly different to every other unit, and are actually supposed to be painted in different colours to each other. So, you have a huge variety of models and colours. If variety is important to you.
Most of the army can Fleet. All Eldar tanks are Fast, Skimmers, and the army contains Eldar Jetbikes (which have different rules to 'normal' Jetbikes). In short, the Eldar army boasts speed and maneuverability.
As with their Infantry, they also have HQ units to fit certain roles. An Autarch can be outfitted to suit almost any battlefield role. Eldar Farseers and Seer Councils are powerful psykers. And the Avatar is a close combat Monster (literally).
A lot of the metal models in the range come in reasonable sized boxes at a (fairly) reasonable price. The good news is, you usually don't need too many of the metal models.
Troops unit choice with the ability to Infiltrate and have Sniper Rifles.
A Wraithlord is one of the scariest models in the game. An absurdly high Toughness and a reasonable armour save. And can kill troops and heavy armour with equal ease. Often at the same time. It's strength 10 and Monstrous Creature status also means it can rip apart tanks even when it's guns are suited to killing Infantry. It even causes Instant Death on most Infantry that attack it. Including a lot of HQ characters.
Wraithguard are like smaller Wraithlords high Strength and Toughness, with a good save and toting around deadly guns.
...It's possible to build an entire army out of Wraithguard and Wraithlords.

Cons: Low 'Elf' Toughness.
The sheer amount of variety can sometimes make it hard to decide which units to take. Especially since some of the units in the Eldar army overlap, but, achieve their role in slightly different ways. And it's these 'slightly different ways' that can make or break the unit depending on your opponent. Some particular units are even useless or near-useless depending on your opponent.
Every unit fills a role. And is unadaptive. You can't manipulate any squad to do anything other than what it was designed to do (except Dire Avengers). And, in smaller point games where you can't afford to take every unit you want, you'll know that you're missing that unit. Because nothing else you have will be able to perform as well as the missing unit.
It's these missing units that make of most of the metal models that will be in your army. You'll need the metal models.
Individual Wraithguard units can often be prohibitively expensive in currency.
Taking too many Wraithlords in your army will have people crying for curdled dairy products. That is; Cheese. In lower point games, just one Wraithlord is enough for "OMG! Cheese!" cries.

Recommendation for Newbies: *** or ****. The Eldar army is an army where it's hard - but not impossible - to go wrong. With such a huge mandatory variety in models, an 'I want every unit' mindset (common in newbies) is actually beneficial to the Eldar army setup.

Dark Eldar (DE):

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Like Eldar, but evil (there's an argument that Dark Eldar are more evil than 'regular Chaos'). But vastly different.
Pros: The Dark Eldar as just as fast and just as maneuverable - if not more - as their 'good' Eldar counterparts. Except pack a lot more firepower. Each and every unit is customisable (unlike Eldar) to attack different things. Splinter Cannons for killing Infantry and Dark Lances for popping tanks. And you can fit a lot of both in an army.
The Dark Eldar close combat portion of the army is nothing to be sneezed at either. The Dark Eldar Lord (home of the 2+ Invulnerable Save) and Incubi retinue is one of the single-deadliest close combat units in the game (the only one better this author can think of is Necron Pariahs). Wyches are also very good.
The Dark Eldar also posses Raiders. A Fast, Skimming, Open-Topped Transport vehicle. For some, this means putting a squad of Warriors in and flying them around the battlefield and shooting anything that moves thanks to being open-topped.
Because a Raider is also Fast, and Open-Topped, and some Dark Eldar Infantry are also Fleet, it means Dark Eldar are often capable of the 'First Turn Assault'. Given just how effective Dark Eldar assault units are, this can only end well.
Also being Open-Topped, it means that when (rarely if) the Raider is destroyed, it's occupants can bail out easier.
In the hands of someone who has played Dark Eldar a long time, the army is staggeringly effective.

Cons: Fragile. Fragile. Fragile. The Dark Eldar army is best described as 'shock and awe' (read the fluff

). The goal of the army is to butcher and hamstring the opponent as quickly and as brutally as possible. If it isn't blindingly obvious that the Dark Eldar are winning by Turn 3 or 4, then they probably wont win the battle at all. By turn 3 or 4, most of the Dark Eldar Raiders should be destroyed (if they're not, laugh), leaving the Dark Eldar to rely on their enormous Toughness of 3, or Jetbikes.
The Dark Eldar have huge reliance on their Raider transport vehicles. This will end up costing a fair bit of currency in the end as nearly every unit will need one for extra protection or speed.
A lot of (effective) Dark Eldar armies tend to look the same.
A lot of the models are old and/or 'not very pretty'. However, some people don't mind that they're 'not pretty', because they're Dark Eldar. They're not supposed to be attractive like 'good' Eldar.
Old Codex. This isn't necessarily a bad thing as the 3rd Ed. Dark Eldar Codex still stands up against recent 5th Ed. Codecies. It isn't bad...Just...Old. And it may or may not be missing out on some fun toys that the other races have been getting.

Recommendation for Newbies: ** or ***. The Dark Eldar are easy to learn, but hard to master. But, once mastered...The Dark Eldar tend to either win by a significant margin (often by Turn 3 or 4), or lose spectacularly (by Turn 5 or 6). If you don't like the models, you can always take regular Eldar, add spikes and make some really awesome conversions. But, doing this is hard.

Necrons:

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Think The Terminator, or perhaps think of Undead metal skeletons. And you can think of the Necrons.
Pros: Some of the toughest basic Troops in the entire game.
Power Armour and Bolters. Except 'Necron Bolters' have a special version of Rending-but-not-quite, allowing them to wound Toughness 8 or better models or cause Glancing Hits to any vehicle. Including Land Raiders. Yes. The basic Troop type, with no options, can cause Glancing Hits against Land Raiders.
As well as their reasonable Toughness and 'Power Armour', they come with the We'll Be Back rule. Essentially your models can stand back up, even after they've been 'killed'. Like Undead. Or T-800s. Essentially, the Necrons are hard to kill. And sometimes don't even stay dead.
Warscythes - available to Necron Lords and Pariahs - are the best weapon in the entire game. Ignoring all saves - including Invulnerable Saves - and rolling 2D6 for Armour Penetration. Given that both Lords and Pariahs have Strength and Toughness 5, they can and will carve through almost anything put in front of them. Not even 'hard' units, that rely on 2+ armour and Invulnerable saves (like Space Marine Terminators) need to think twice about assaulting Pariahs.
The Necron army list is straightforward. You don't have to worry about whether to take Flamers or Plasmaguns. The unit is the unit. No fiddling necessary.
Most of the (useful) Necron model range is plastic. And also come at a high in-game points cost. For this reason, the Necrons are probably the cheapest army to buy when it comes to currency.
Necrons are extremely easy to paint.
The C'Tan. The Necrons are able to field near-literal Gods on the battlefield.
The Monolith. There's a legend that if you crack it open, it's full of cheese!
Disclaimer: Cheesegear does not endorse breaking your Necron Monolith to find out if cheese is inside it.

Cons: First and foremost, the Phase Out rule. When an arbitrary proportion of your army is destroyed, the Necron army automatically loses. Regardless of the mission being played, the opponent has the same objective; 'Kill them all'.
Certain units are able to mitigate Phase Out from happening. One of the best ways to do this is to take a lot of the cheaper - and less fun - units in the army. For this reason, a lot of (effective) Necron armies tend to look pretty boring and are always pretty similar.
The only real individuality to be found in the entire Necron army list is to be found on the Necron Lord. No other unit truly allows options except for whether to take grenades or not.
The Assault capabilities of the Necron army is pretty effective, but, minimal. Either being expensive in points (like the aforementioned awesome Pariahs) and/or are not Troops. The Necron list also has a profound lack of Power Weapons, which doesn't help. The only power weapons found in the Necron list are Warscythes, which are only found on the expensive units; Lords and Pariahs (please note that Warscythes are awesome, however).
Pariahs may be totally awesome, and perhaps the best unit in the game, but, they don't come with the Necron rule. Meaning, every Pariah you get for your army, means that you're one step closer to Phasing Out earlier.
The basic Necron Troop comes at a high points cost, for this reason, Necrons do not often do well in games that are less than 1000 points.
(Unless the opponent doesn't entirely know what they're doing, and doesn't know how to defeat We'll Be Back or force a Phase Out).

Recommendation for Newbies: The Necrons are a very straightforward list. Very few options to get confused about, and extremely easy to paint. Necrons are very much like the Dark Eldar. It's very easy to make a bad list. It's also very easy to make a completely devastating list if you know what you're doing.
* if you can't get your head around Phase Out or want a list that offers variety.
**** or even ***** if you're looking for an easy army to put together and paint. And you can get your head around Phase Out, and know how to make it less bad.

Tau:

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With help provided by Nameless Ghost, Ricky S and Selrahc

Tau are the archetypal alien race. Very progressive technology and a near-utopic society. Also draws several parallels to Mechs and Exosuits - if you like that sort of thing.
Pros: Firepower. You want a really 'Shooty' army? You pick Tau.
Like Necrons and Space Marines, you actually can't go very far wrong with the 'normal' Troop choice; Fire Warriors. They have a decent save of 4+, so they aren't dying en masse to Bolter fire. And they boast the best base-Troop weapon in the game. Yes. Better than Bolters. Easily. Their Transport (Devilfish), similarly, for it's points cost is one of the best in the game. Second only to the Eldar Wave Serpent. You can field a very respectable army fielding nothing but Fire Warriors and Devilfish - just bring some anti-armour weapons.

HQ and Elites choices field some very respectable units in the form of Crisis Suits and Stealth Teams. Effectively your Mechs/Exosuits/Gears. With their ability to take a wide array of guns, on top of their ability to fire at multiple units at the same time, it makes them a very nice support unit for your Fire Warriors. Or, even a front-line squadron if you're brave enough. Crisis Suits also possess Jet Packs, rather than Jump Packs. Which is a really cool bonus to have. As it allows you to move in the Assault phase for move-shoot-move combos like Eldar Jetbikes.

Tau Heavy Support though is what you're really looking at. Broadsides are exactly what their name suggests if you're into Naval Warfare. Broadsides carry Railguns; High-strength guns designed to annihilate whatever they're pointed at. And they do it well too.
This author would be remiss if he didn't also mention Hammerheads. One of the better tanks in the game.

Cons: Tau fold like paper in Assault. What they do in Shooting, they lose out in Assault. Even worse than Necrons. Low Weapon Skill, low Toughness, low Initiative, and no access to Power Weapons or weapons that don't allow saves in Assault. Their decent armour saves them somewhat, but not much.

The Tau also have more than their fair share of 'trap' units. Which, outside of Themed Lists, don't actually do very well.
Like taking Kroot. Kroot are better in Assault than pretty much anything else in the army, but, that's not really saying much. You're best off with more Fire Warriors.
Ethereals are extremely good. But, your opponent will pretty much always target him first. And then he becomes a massive liability for your army.

Like Tyranids and Chaos Marines, it's kind of hard not to go overboard on Wargear options on your Crisis Suits, because they're all just so good. Leaving you fewer points to spend on Fire Warriors. Not only that, Crisis Suits are not Terminators, and don't do real well under fire.

Heavy Support choices are expensive in points. Problem is, if you don't take them, you're seriously missing out on some really impressive firepower options.

Recommendation for Newbs; *** The Battleforce is one of the better ones around, so long as you remember that the Kroot are essentially 'free'; If you didn't pay currency for them, you're under no obligation to use them. Replace them with Fire Warriors as soon as you can. The Tau way of battle also requires a lot of tactics to use well (similar to Eldar), in that you need to prioritise fire and occasionally you have no choice but to sacrifice the odd unit here and there. Tau often play very static roles, unless you shell out extra currency for Devilfish. Which isn't always the best thing in the world. And no. There really isn't a way around being bad at Assault. The best thing you can hope for is that you've shot the crap out of your enemy before they get there.

Chaos Daemons (Daemons, CDs)

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Daemons. They come out of the Warp to eat your face. That's about all you need to know.
Pros: Chaos Daemons, as an army, possess some of the more powerful units in the game. Strong HQs, strong Elites, reasonably impressive Fast Attack, and some strong Heavy Support in the form of Soul Grinders and Daemon Princes.
The entire army is Invulnerable and sports Eternal Warrior and Fearless on every single unit except the Soul Grinder. But, as a Daemon, the Soul Grinder gets some pretty impressive things on its own. So, Power Weapons and other low AP ranged weapons don't really have any extra effect on Daemons. Your opponent is basically wasting points.
Very powerful Assault army if you can get it there. It only takes three or four models to wipe out an opposing unit of 10 even on a fairly average day.
Very fast army. A number of Beasts/Cavalry and Jump Infantry units, and the whole army Deep Strikes.
High diversity and distinctive imagery of all it's units.
Most of the army is plastic (or soon will be), which keeps currency costs low.

Cons: *Deep Breath* Well, deployment. Before any game even starts, you're at a disadvantage. You can't actually plan with Chaos Daemons. Before the game starts, divide your army in half. Half your army arrives on Turn 1 via Deep Strike, and the rest of the army trickles in over the rest of the game.

...The really annoying part, is that you don't actually get to pick which half you get on the first turn. The only way to make a 'plan' with Daemons, is to have symmetrical halves, so, no matter what comes down, you've got what you want. Which means, all that diversity in models goes out the window as you now need to duplicate every unit. Leading to 'cookie cutter' units. Which nobody really likes - unless you want that.

Yeah, the entire army arrives via Deep Strike and reserves. It's both good and bad, it's more often bad. Since Chaos Daemons have a real lack of shooting. The opposite of Tau, who have low Assault. But, due to Deep Striking, and the disallowance of Assault, your army will get shot at before you get to Assault with your units.

This is solved by 'aggressive Deep Striking', which is ignoring terrain difficulties, and deploying as close to your enemy as you possibly can so you can Assault next turn. This means that you could take casualties from Difficult Terrain, and following Shooting phase from your opponent. To do this, you need lots of models, which costs currency.

The Codex - like Eldar - has a higher-than-normal amount of unit redundancy. Some of those diverse units that you like, just wont be taken because there are other units that can do the same job, better. Like Necrons, Daemons' Elites and Fast Attack choices are mostly just more powerful versions of the Troops units. Because of this reason, Daemons' Troops are pretty lackluster in comparison to everything else. Except that you have to take Troops...well, because they're your Troops. Which is even worse because those Troops units aren't exactly cheap in points.

With such a low save, Fearless is quite often a hindrance. And, unlike Orks or Tyranids, Daemons don't usually have the numbers to keep up a sustained losing-assault. But, Daemons don't usually lose Assault (even with such small unit sizes). So, you've got that.

Recommendation for Newbies: * The deployment rules are like nothing a new player would be able to deal with. Not to mention the complexity and tactics that you need with a Chaos Daemons army in order to win.
** If you really like the imagery and painting/conversion opportunities that Chaos Daemons presents.
Sadly, Daemons are more Cons than Pros unless you build your list a specific way. Which you - a new player - probably wont do.

Daemonhunters and Grey Knights (DHs, GKs): **

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Codex: Daemonhunters is unusual, in that it technically offers you two different armies to play with, as well as the option to blend them together to make a third. Essentially, you're given some of the best things available to Space Marines and Imperial Guard Armies, and have them led by a powerful psyker and his cadre of Imperial Operatives and minions in the name of the Emperor's finest hand-picked soldiers.

Pros: The first thing that should be said about a Daemonhunters Army is that the quality of the models available, while narrow, is some of the finest available on a 40k battlefield. Very few forces can offer the sort of attention to detail and thematic consistency as a full contingent of the Adeptus Malleus.
The fact that you are given instructions for at least 2 different armies to play is also a nice bonus. On the one hand, you have "Imperial Guard-lite"; Storm Troopers riding around in Chimera, holding the line while your Inquisitor Lord directs highly trained Assassins to neutralise specific important targets.
On the other hand, you get the Grey Knights which are all the best things about ordinary Space Marines - like Terminator Armour, Land Raiders and impressive statlines - turned up to 11 with special abilities and exquisite new equipment to make a terrifyingly powerful Close Combat-orientated (though certainly not exclusive) army. Mix and match the two for a more balanced approach, or take even more Allies from your ordinary Codex: Imperial Guard and Codex: Space Marines to create one of the few Tournament-legal allied forces.
Codex: Daemonhunters offers you a variety of themes and opportunities to use for free, that other Armies usually have to get by spending precious points on Special Characters.

And to top it all off, the Codex is absolutely free to own! Yes, legally! You can get a copy all for your very own from the GW website, and it won't cost you a penny.

Cons: See all that really good stuff I listed above? About elite equipment, powerful soldiers and copious special abilities? Well, you're going to pay through the nose for them in every sense of the phrase.
The gorgeous models are almost entirely a metal range, putting even a medium sized army out of reach of most hobbiests. It also doesn't help that the Codex itself has been discontinued by GW, so chances are you'll be spending a lot of time awaiting your troops to arrive by Mail Order, which is yet another expense to bare in mind.
Assuming that you actually have the models you need to play with, you might find yourself shocked by how few of them there are compared to other armies. Though Grey Knights are the worst offenders, virtually all units in the Codex are more expensive than their C:IG and C:SM counterparts, and it's entirely possible to play a legal, competitive 1500 point army with around 20 models in it.
Thirdly, Codex: Daemonhunters was first published in 2002, and a lot has happened in the last 8 years. A number of the special rules and wargear options that you're choosing from have become incredibly weak due to changes to the Main Rules and other Codices, and those which aren't weakened are often made completely obsolete. For example, any Psychic Power referring to a Daemonic Instability Test? Yeah, you won't be needing that - those tests don't even exist any more, and it was very much a one-trick pony at the best of times.

More specifically, the Daemonhunters Special Characters suck.
Seriously - there's only two of them, and even comparing them to units available in the own Codex, let alone the SC's belonging to other armies, make you wonder why you would bother.
The Daemonhunter special character has an embarrassing statline and only 1 of his 2 psychic powers actually does anything, whereas the Grey Knight special character lacks all of the rules that actually makes him a 'proper' Grey Knight, and his only other special ability benefits your opponent as much as it does you in a very literal sense.
While special characters should be an interesting and characterful addition to an army, Codex: Daemonhunters tosses them in like an afterthought, robbing the player of the sort of storytelling grandeur that other armies take for granted.

Recommendation for Newbies: * or **
A pure Grey Knight Army is arguably one of the trickiest and most difficult army to use in Warhammer 40,000 - every casualty is a massive set back and your plans have to go off perfectly, for even the slightest mistake will leave you crippled in an instant. A pure Daemonhunter army will fare slightly better (hence the optional ** rating) but both armies can be done much better, more cheaply, by an ordinary Imperial Guard or Space Marine Army with an appropriate paint job. Heck, at least their Codices actually work properly!
If that doesn't deter you, however, a Codex: Daemonhunters army will undoubtedly be the crowning jewel in your wargaming collection. It will look fantastic, it will make a satisfyingly loud *THUNK* when you put it on the table, and the bragging rights available for actually winning a game with such a beast will be unrivaled by any other army choice.

Witch Hunters and Sisters of Battle (WHs, SoBs): ***

Orks: *** to ***** depending on how much currency you have (horde army). Extra points because it's the more useful of the AoBR Starter Armies. So, a decent Ork army actually comes stock in the 'newbie box'.

Imperial Guard (IG): * to ***** depending on how much currency you have. A ***** IG army is the single-most expensive army in the entire game. Even more than Daemonhunters.
Imperial Guard Tanks.

Still to come;
Imperial Guard, Witch Hunters and Orks.
These armies I have lot of experience with. Send PMs if you believe you have advice that I might leave out.

Actually looking for, or things I can't write myself;
More General Advice (I think I've covered most of it).

SEND PMs. Don't Derail Thread.
Please submit suggestions for additions to the guide to my PM box as to keep from derailing the thread. Also, try and keep it general. Specifics can be delved into after the aspiring player has picked an army.

---

Previous Threads

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* Warhammer 40K Tactics
* Warhammer 40k -II- Tactics for the Tactics God
* Warhammer 40k III - Hats for the Hat Throne
* Warhammer 40K Tactics IV - The Enemy of Your Enemy is Still Your Enemy.
* Warhammer 40K Tactics V: Everyone Is On Fire. Some Moreso Than Others.
* Warhammer 40K Tactics VI: Chaos Bringing Eternal Darkness? I brought my flashlight.
* Warhammer 40K Tabletop VII: Common Sense is not RAW.
* Warhammer 40K Tabletop VIII: "You're Gonna have To Face It, You're Addicted To Maths
* Warhammer 40K Tabletop IX: "Mech Is King? I Never Voted For It!"
* Warhammer 40K Tabletop X: "Everybody expects the Inquisition!"

**GallóglachMaxim** · 2011-03-29, 09:51 PM (ISO 8601)

Huzzah, new thread.

I'm working on a guard list for a tournament over the Easter weekend, 1500 points, five games. The tournament has its own missions, four of which require scoring units, one uses kill points.

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HQ
Lord Commissar - (70)

Elites
Guardsman Marbo - (65)

Troops
Infantry Platoon (310)
>Platoon Command Squad - (60)
2x Grenade Launcher, Power Fist, Vox

>Squad 1 - (65)
Autocannon, Vox

>Squad 2 - (60)
Autocannon

>Squad 3 - (65)
Autocannon, Vox

>Squad 4 - (60)
Autocannon

Veteran Squad - (125)
Autocannon, 3x Sniper Rifle, Forward Sentries

Veteran Squad - (165)
Gunnery Sergeant Harker, 2x Meltagun, Demolitions, 7x Shotgun

Veteran Squad - (125)
Lascannon, Grenade Launcher, Forward Sentries

Veteran Squad - (125)
Lascannon, Grenade Launcher, Forward Sentries

Veteran Squad - (100)
Power Fist, 3x Grenade Launcher

Fast Attack
Valkyrie Assault Carrier -(115)
Lascannon

Heavy Support
Leman Russ Battle Tank - (150)

Leman Russ Battle Tank - (150)

Alternatives that I have available

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Psyker battle squad, spare special weapon troopers, chimera, a few spare heavy weapon teams (missiles, lascannon) and enough spare guardsmen/officers for two command squads

Edit: ~~taking the specific points out of the list.~~ List now internet-appropriate

**Zorg** · 2011-03-29, 11:25 PM (ISO 8601)

In more Phantom Titan news:

Phantom Titan Pricing Update

With the very first Phantom Titans being boxed up for the Forge World Open Day at Warhammer World this weekend, we can now confirm that the Titan body will be £350 ($578), while the D-Cannon and Pulsar weapon options will be £50 ($83) each.
We will have a limited number available at the Forge World Open Day, and AdeptiCon attendees will be able to advance order the mighty Phantom Titan for despatch well in advance of the pre-order date for this magnificent kit.

Cheaper than a Reaver! Definately getting one now

**Ricky S** · 2011-03-30, 01:13 AM (ISO 8601)

Originally Posted by Zorg

In more Phantom Titan news:

Cheaper than a Reaver! Definately getting one now

Ah, but is it better than a reaver?

**Cheesegear** · 2011-03-30, 03:42 AM (ISO 8601)

Originally Posted by GallóglachMaxim

I'm working on a guard list for a tournament over the Easter weekend, 1500 points, five games. The tournament has its own missions, four of which require scoring units, one uses kill points.

Special missions? Any idea of what they are? Is it crap like "If you have units in your opposing DZ, get extra points.", because stuff like that means MOAR MECHANISED, and MOAR DEEP STRIKES. In any case, I'll just go with your list as-is before I go breaking the tournament format.

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Lord Commissar - (70)

Yes.

Guardsman Marbo - (65)

No. He works great in low point games when taking out that tank, or brick unit pretty much means game, later on though, not so much. And especially not without a Telepathic Relay.

Primaris Psykers are fun. I'll see how many points I can leak out of the whole list before I go putting units in.

Infantry Platoon (310)
>Platoon Command Squad - (60)
2x Grenade Launcher, Power Fist, Vox

Lose the Power Fist. If your Command Squad is in Assault, you've already lost.

>Squad 1 - (65)
Autocannon, Vox

>Squad 2 - (60)
Autocannon

>Squad 3 - (65)
Autocannon, Vox

>Squad 4 - (60)
Autocannon

Can't see any reason why not.

Veteran Squad - (125)
Autocannon, 3x Sniper Rifle, Forward Sentries

Forward Sentries gain you nothing. The Autocannon and Rifles work fine wherever they are on the board. Break this unit up to afford Plasmaguns on all your units above, or go with Ratlings, or something. Or just lose Forward Sentries. I'm unclear about what you want to do with this squad.

If you want to maximise Pinning (you've got Rifles, so you should), go with a Mortar.

Veteran Squad - (165)
Gunnery Sergeant Harker, 2x Meltagun, Demolitions, 7x Shotgun

BANANAS. B-A-N-A-N-A-S. This s* is bananas.

Veteran Squad - (125)
Lascannon, Grenade Launcher, Forward Sentries

Veteran Squad - (125)
Lascannon, Grenade Launcher, Forward Sentries

Once again, I don't see the point of Forward Sentries. And the lack of trip-weapons on Veterans saddens me. Don't really see why these squads aren't MOAR INFANTRY. There's easily enough to fit in points for a Command Squad with a few points left over I believe.

Veteran Squad - (100)
Power Fist, 3x Grenade Launcher

I...Guess...??
Goes in the Valkyrie, yes? Meltaguns are better if that's the case.

Valkyrie Assault Carrier -(115)
Lascannon

No Large Blast Defensive Rocket Pods? O...Kay...

Leman Russ Battle Tank - (150)

Leman Russ Battle Tank - (150)

<3. Although the lack of Chimeras and 'not enough' Gunships will probably get these guys targeted down pretty fast.

Mostly, the problems in the list stem from Forward Sentries and Veterans being Veterans when they're not doing what Veterans do, and standing around trying to be expensive Infantry Squads.

Marbo, I don't like. Really, it depends on your opponent's list on how good he is. Against the Twilight Marines he's not going to have a whole lot to do since the 'best' versions of both red and blue lists have a lot of redundancy.

**Tome** · 2011-03-30, 03:42 AM (ISO 8601)

Originally Posted by Ricky S

Ah, but is it better than a reaver?

It is, according to the blurb for it, the most powerful model currently available. So probably.

**banjo1985** · 2011-03-30, 04:07 AM (ISO 8601)

Originally Posted by Ninja Chocobo

You are an Ork player, aren't you?

Of course, but only very recently and I've only played a couple of games with them, thus the request for advice.

Buggies are still god-awful models, and I don't have the ability to cobble my own version together. Well, I do, but it would probably look like a mechanised parsnip.

**Klose_the_Sith** · 2011-03-30, 05:28 AM (ISO 8601)

Originally Posted by banjo1985

Of course, but only very recently and I've only played a couple of games with them, thus the request for advice.

Buggies are still god-awful models, and I don't have the ability to cobble my own version together. Well, I do, but it would probably look like a mechanised parsnip.

The thing is orks would kind of roll with that.

My 9 Big Gunz are cobbled together from old army men debris.

**Ogremindes** · 2011-03-30, 05:48 AM (ISO 8601)

I've seen some pretty neat buggies on the 'net based on deff koptas.

**Renegade Paladin** · 2011-03-30, 06:00 AM (ISO 8601)

The more cobbled together an Ork vehicle is, the better.

**Tome** · 2011-03-30, 07:14 AM (ISO 8601)

Originally Posted by banjo1985

Of course, but only very recently and I've only played a couple of games with them, thus the request for advice.

Buggies are still god-awful models, and I don't have the ability to cobble my own version together. Well, I do, but it would probably look like a mechanised parsnip.

They're Orks. A mechanised parsnip is totally appropriate for them. Worst comes to worst, buy some cool models from other armies and stick bitz on them until they look sufficiently Orky.

That aside, I'm thinking of starting a Grey Knights army soon. Thing is, I absolutely detest models in power armour. But as much as I hate power armour, I love models in Terminator armour, which is why I'm thinking of starting Grey Knights (or possibly Space Wolves, if they'd work better for an all-Terminator army). What would the best way to build such an army be? Currently I'm thinking a Librarian with The Summoning and a Teleport Homer in a Stormraven would be a good way to get the rest of the army into assault range, but I'm not so sure how that would work in practice. Anyone got any advice on this?

**Incomp** · 2011-03-30, 10:39 AM (ISO 8601)

Originally Posted by banjo1985

Well, I do, but it would probably look like a mechanised parsnip.

Something like this?

**Cheesegear** · 2011-03-30, 10:44 AM (ISO 8601)

Originally Posted by Tome

But as much as I hate power armour, I love models in Terminator armour, which is why I'm thinking of starting Grey Knights (or possibly Space Wolves, if they'd work better for an all-Terminator army). What would the best way to build such an army be? Currently I'm thinking a Librarian with The Summoning and a Teleport Homer in a Stormraven would be a good way to get the rest of the army into assault range, but I'm not so sure how that would work in practice. Anyone got any advice on this?

Grab your FAQ to fix the Codex. Run Dark Angels. Hammers and Cyclones.

**Tarinaky** · 2011-03-30, 10:51 AM (ISO 8601)

Originally Posted by Incomp

Something like this?

Dude, did you smoke all of Matt Ward's stash?

**Hootman** · 2011-03-30, 11:06 AM (ISO 8601)

Originally Posted by Closet_Skeleton

The multi-meltas on the servitors don't synergise with the conversion beamer at all. Conversion beamers work best on bikes.
[...]
Never take a dual heavy flamer regular dread when you can have dual heavy flamer iron clads. Regular dreads are for shooting at long range.
[...]
Hunter killers on iron clads are a fun idea but overkill and overpointed in practice.

I have taken as many of your suggestions as I could, and pumped out a modified version of this list for 2000 points. ~~However, I am curious about your first point that I quoted, that Beamers are anti-bike. How does that work?~~

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HQ
Master of the Forge 155
- Conversion Beamer, Bike

TROOPS
Scouts 10 190
- Sniper Rifles, Missile Launcher, Sergeant Telion

Scouts 5 100
- Sniper Rifles, Missile Launcher, Camo Cloaks

Scouts 5 100
- Sniper Rifles, Missile Launcher, Camo Cloaks

Scouts 10 170
- CCW & Pistol, Powerfist, Meltabombs

Scouts 5 105
- CCW & Pistol, Powerweapon, Combi-melta, Meltabombs
- Embarked on Land Speeder Storm (below)

FAST ATTACK
Land Speeder Storm 60pts
- Heavy Flamer

ELITES & HEAVY SUPPORT
Ironclad Dreadnought 185pts
- Heavy Flamer, Heavy Flamer
- Drop Pod

Ironclad Dreadnought 185pts
- Heavy Flamer, Heavy Flamer
- Drop Pod

Ironclad Dreadnought 200pts
- Hunter-Killer Missile
- Drop Pod with Deathwind Launcher

Ironclad Dreadnought 200pts
- Hunter-Killer Missile
- Drop Pod with Deathwind Launcher

Venerable Dreadnought 220pts
- Assault Cannon, Heavy Flamer
- Drop Pod

Dreadnought 125pts
- Twin-Linked Autocannon, Twin-Linked Autocannon

TOTAL: 1995 pts

Thoughts, anyone?

EDIT: As per the suggestions below, I have exchanged the MotF's Servitor wound-sinks for a Space Marine Bike. I am now considering trading one unit of Snipers for a unit of Scout Bikers (probably with Astartes Grenage Launchers) that can alternate between protecting the MotF and harrying goddang everything. Does anyone here ever use Scout Bikers, and are they worth it?

**Zorg** · 2011-03-30, 12:29 PM (ISO 8601)

Originally Posted by Ricky S

Ah, but is it better than a reaver?

Time will tell, but just look how freaking cool it is!

Originally Posted by Incomp

Something like this?

Two points: Needs more dakka. Needs more choppa.

But otherwise a good start

Originally Posted by Hootman

I have taken as many of your suggestions as I could, and pumped out a modified version of this list for 2000 points. However, I am curious about your first point that I quoted, that Beamers are anti-bike. How does that work?

He means they work best when the MotF is riding a bike. Bikes give Relentless, so the MotF can move and shoot his Beamer (and another gun due to having multiple wounds). Beamers work best at long range, so the MotF has the mobility to stay far away from the enemy, shooting all the while.

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HQ
Master of the Forge 160
- Converstion Beamer
- Servitors 3

TROOPS
Scouts 10 190
- Sniper Rifles, Missile Launcher, Sergeant Telion

Scouts 5 100
- Sniper Rifles, Missile Launcher, Camo Cloaks

Scouts 5 100
- Sniper Rifles, Missile Launcher, Camo Cloaks

Scouts 10 160
- CCW & Pistol, Powerweapon, Meltabombs

Scouts 5 115
- CCW & Pistol, Powerfist, Combi-melta, Meltabombs
- Embarked on Land Speeder Storm (below)

FAST ATTACK
Land Speeder Storm 60pts
- Heavy Flamer

ELITES & HEAVY SUPPORT
Ironclad Dreadnought 185pts
- Heavy Flamer, Heavy Flamer
- Drop Pod

Ironclad Dreadnought 185pts
- Heavy Flamer, Heavy Flamer
- Drop Pod

Ironclad Dreadnought 200pts
- Hunter-Killer Missile
- Drop Pod with Deathwind Launcher

Ironclad Dreadnought 200pts
- Hunter-Killer Missile
- Drop Pod with Deathwind Launcher

Venerable Dreadnought 220pts
- Assault Cannon, Heavy Flamer
- Drop Pod

Dreadnought 125pts
- Twin-Linked Autocannon, Twin-Linked Autocannon

TOTAL: 2000 pts

Thoughts, anyone?

Not sure about the CC weapon scout squads, namely I'd give the 10 man the fist and the Storm squad the PW - if you're assaulting anything with 5 scouts you don't want to need a fist.
Meltabombs, yes (I've had success with a Storm lurking backfield to strike out and bomb a Land Raider or the like), but 5 scouts will die horribly against anything that's going to need S8 to take down.

**Closet_Skeleton** · 2011-03-30, 12:38 PM (ISO 8601)

If you want a conversion beamer dump the servitors on the master of the forge or give them plasma cannons. Probably dump them, since the bike doesn't work well with the plasma cannons.

**Hawkfrost000** · 2011-03-30, 12:41 PM (ISO 8601)

(new thread happy dance)

Then apologizes for having nothing to contribute

DM

**Hootman** · 2011-03-30, 12:45 PM (ISO 8601)

Originally Posted by Zorg

He means they work best when the MotF is riding a bike. Bikes give Relentless, so the MotF can move and shoot his Beamer (and another gun due to having multiple wounds). Beamers work best at long range, so the MotF has the mobility to stay far away from the enemy, shooting all the while.

They can ride bikes? o.O *flips frantically through Codex* HOLYEMPERORTHEYCANYESYESYESYESYES. SOLD!

Not sure about the CC weapon scout squads, namely I'd give the 10 man the fist and the Storm squad the PW - if you're assaulting anything with 5 scouts you don't want to need a fist.

Since I gave both of those squads Meltabombs, that is a very good point! It seems much more efficient to put the Fist with the larger unit, giving the Fist more padding and (ideally) striking with another 15 attacks to weaken the foe before it can counter.

I will edit in those ideas with all appropriate haste.

**pilvento** · 2011-03-30, 03:12 PM (ISO 8601)

hi all, first time posting here.

im kinda still new to 40k (half a year playing) i play eldars, cause im a fan of speed, shurikens, and hit and run tacticks.

im singed up for a tournament in next month, arround 24 players so i expect a lot of variety and i think im ready for it but i still dont know how to counter a full tank imperial guardy army and also defend against all the other balanced armys.

my list so far: 1500pts

HQ autarch, reaper launcher

5 dark reapers, full equiped
2 fire prisms, holo fields, vectored engines

10 dire avengers +2 catapult exarch and bladestorm
- in bright lance wave serpent
5 scouts

10 warp spiders, exarch monorifle surprise assault
10 warp spiders, exarch monorifle surprise assault

i love this list but i hate the lack of my bike farseer and his 2 warlock bodyguards

comments or suggestions u can give me?

**Erloas** · 2011-03-30, 03:42 PM (ISO 8601)

Well... its hard to say what to really change on that list without changing almost everything because it is nothing at all like any list I would run.

Off hand I'm not sure if vectored engines are much of a benefit for fire prisms because they don't generally move all that much anyway... but I might be remembering the upgrade wrong because its not one I find worth taking most of the time.

Not sure what your plan with the autarch is. In most cases Dark Reapers don't need any help doing their job and the autarch isn't designed to help them in close combat or any other situation they can't normally handle.
In general I find Reapers to be a bit too expensive so I tend to take them without any upgrades because they can still do their job without the exarch or his upgrades.

Troops... you simply don't have enough for a 1500 point game, unless for some reason your group never does objectives. The scouts... I'm still not to sure on, but in general I've never seen a reason to not upgrade them to pathfinders. I personally can't see any situation where I wouldn't bring jetbikes.

Warp Spiders... I like them, but at this point I don't think they are good enough to justify such a large percentage of your army. At this point I would probably drop one unit and maybe some things off the other one to get a different type of unit. And I really wish I had my book right now... but isn't surprise assault the one that lets you deep strike with them? Which is now a redundant ability since all jump infantry and DS no matter what. I could just have the skill names switched.

I can't believe you don't have any elite choices. I find banshees and scorpions always useful, and everyone knows what fire dragons can do.

For the high level of mobility that you get from the prisms, spiders, and wave serpent your scouts and reapers seem very out of place.

As for anti-tank... thats not really a surprise that you have issue with it since you have very little anti-tank. Outflanking war walkers and jetbikes are great for getting behind/beside tanks and taking out a few. Spiders can do it, but being AP- they are at a serious disadvantage to doing it. And of course fire dragons are an obvious choice for anti-tank.

In general I find scatter lasers (and a bit less so the shuriken cannon) to be some of the most versatile weapons in the game and you don't have a single one of either in your list.

**pilvento** · 2011-03-30, 04:28 PM (ISO 8601)

as i said before, im kinda new, if u are willing to help me, ill tell the models i have .

avegers x 20
scouts x 10
2fire prisms
2 falcons/serpents
5repares
20spiders
10scoripions
2wraithlords
1vyper
all fenix lords
farseer in bike + 2 warlocks

i like spiders and mobility so on a second tought i can go

2prismins
2serpents + avengers
vyper (weapon?)
farseer and warlock

the idea of the other list was to play lots of spiders just for fun, and use the autarch so they come into play faster.

i palyed proxy guardin jetbikes lots of times, bt well they are expensive... a lot.

and i cant find the correct way to play the wraithlords. amybe cause my friends play tyranids (poison sucks) bike orks (cant catch em) imperial guard(monstrous creature minigun tank eats em)

**Wraith** · 2011-03-30, 04:53 PM (ISO 8601)

Aha, a Tactical Thread with Independent Character. Good times

Originally Posted by pilvento

my list so far: 1500pts

Interesting list, but I agree with Erloas. Moore Troops and less Warp Spiders would be of great benefit - I'd strongly consider 2x10 Dire Avengers, 5-10 Scouts and 5-10 Warp Spiders (with Exarch and Spinnerette Rifle) were I in your position.

Mounting the Avengers in Wave Serpents, as you have done, is a very good idea. Don't afraid to splash a few more points on their weapons though; with so few anti-tank weapons in your army besides the Fire Prisms, you'd be surprised at what can be accomplished by a Star Cannon fired from an unexpected angle

The Fire Prisms are not an inherently bad choice, but Wraithlords are probably the best unit in the Codex, with the possible exception of some of the Phoenix Lords. I'd recommend playing a few games with them to see how you feel, as I genuinely expect them to outperform the Grav-Tanks. Against Tyranids, a good setup for Wraithlords is 2x Flamers and Shuriken Cannon. A Wraithblade is a nice way to spend some spare points of you expect to see a few Carnifex or a Hive Tyrant, but they're not imperative.

By your Dark Reapers being 'fully equipped', I assume you mean an Exarch, both powers and one of the upgraded weapons - is that right? May I ask which weapon you've given him, as some are better than others.

And Erloas was right about your Autarch. The Reapers will be fine on their own, and he will better serve with either the Dire Avengers (power weapon, Mandiblaster and Shuriken Catapult) or the Warp Spiders (Jump Pack plus Fusion Gun is reasonably good fun, in my experience).

Although it has to be said, a Farseer with the 'Doom' and 'Guide' powers will probably surpass either of those options, since you have one, particularly in such a 'shooty' army. I hope that's of help to you

**Cheesegear** · 2011-03-30, 05:39 PM (ISO 8601)

Originally Posted by Hootman

pumped out a modified version of this list for 2000 points.

Somebody's using Scouts. My Scout Sense is tingling.

Spoiler

Show

Master of the Forge 155
- Conversion Beamer, Bike

If you're going to do a Master of the Forge, this is the only way to do it. Any other way and you've done it wrong.

Scouts 10 190
- Sniper Rifles, Missile Launcher, Sergeant Telion

Scouts 5 100
- Sniper Rifles, Missile Launcher, Camo Cloaks

Scouts 5 100
- Sniper Rifles, Missile Launcher, Camo Cloaks

I don't like Telion, and I don't like Camo Cloaks. But, that's just me. And, mostly because I always go for full, ten-man Scout Squads, and I have a lot of them. Camo Cloaks over four different units can get you a whole new unit.

We understand that by losing Telion and the Cloaks, you can get a whole 'nother squad, right?

Scouts 10 170
- CCW & Pistol, Powerfist, Meltabombs

Power Fist and Melta Bombs...I spot wasted points. Lose the Bombs.
Also, do you know about Shotgun Scouts being better than Assault Scouts? Also, I don't like Assault Scouts at all unless they have a Land Speeder Storm. Rifles, Bolters or Shotguns.

Scouts 5 105
- CCW & Pistol, Powerweapon, Combi-melta, Meltabombs

Again, Shotguns. I also don't like Combi-Meltas unless you're running He'Stan, or have lots of them. Basically you're paying 10 points to miss. Lose the Combi-Melta, swap the Power Weapon for a Fist, and drop the Bombs.

Land Speeder Storm 60pts
- Heavy Flamer

Yeah, okay.

Ironclad Dreadnought 185pts
- Heavy Flamer, Heavy Flamer
- Drop Pod

Ironclad Dreadnought 185pts
- Heavy Flamer, Heavy Flamer
- Drop Pod

Ironclad Dreadnought 200pts
- Hunter-Killer Missile
- Drop Pod with Deathwind Launcher

Ironclad Dreadnought 200pts
- Hunter-Killer Missile
- Drop Pod with Deathwind Launcher

Yep. Find points for at least one to have a Locator Beacon.

Venerable Dreadnought 220pts
- Assault Cannon, Heavy Flamer
- Drop Pod

Ew. See his BS5? Heavy Flamers ignore that awesomeness. See '4 shots' on the Assault Cannon? Makes BS5 pretty crap. Especially since what makes Assault Cannons good are To Wound rolls, which nothing affects.

See how you're in 2000 points? Do you notice the distinct lack of Lascannons in your list (and AP2 weapons in general)? Anybody who takes a Land Raider is going to ruin your day. Anybody who takes more than one Land Raider has basically already won during the Deployment Phase.

The same is said for Hammernators.

Dreadnought 125pts
- Twin-Linked Autocannon, Twin-Linked Autocannon

Yep. Although only having one, and everything else in Drop Pods, means if your opponent has first turn, this thing is going to die in the first Shooting Phase.

Does anyone here ever use Scout Bikers, and are they worth it?

I've used Scout Bikes a bunch, and no. They are not worth it. Mostly because there are better things to spend your FA Slots on. Like...Anything-not-Vanguard.

If you want something that can hang around with a Bike, try Assault Marines or real Bikers.

**Nameless Ghost** · 2011-03-30, 06:13 PM (ISO 8601)

Originally Posted by Wraith

The Fire Prisms are not an inherently bad choice, but Wraithlords are probably the best unit in the Codex, with the possible exception of some of the Phoenix Lords.

I cannot express how opposed I am to this. Wraithlords really aren't that great and most of the Phoenix Lords are just plain terrible.

I would run a Wraithlord with two heavy weapons, most likely the lance and missile, but in that case I would go for multiple Wraithlords. They aren't good in combat and the Wraithsword doesn't change that. The only time I would want a Wraithlord near enemy units was when I was making use of the twin flamers or tying up a unit that couldn't hurt it.

If you want to go for side shots on vehicles, scatter lasers are more effective due to having the extra shot. I've never seen a star cannon perform that effectively - they're more expensive and lack the rate of fire to really hurt anything.

Much agreeing on the Farseer though - I'd say they're pretty much mandatory. Being able to reroll your saves is amazing, as if the ability to hinder every enemy Psyker no matter where they are on the table.

**GallóglachMaxim** · 2011-03-30, 06:19 PM (ISO 8601)