The place for over-analysis...

[Musrum]

EDIT: I looked back at today's strip, and it made me wonder if Roy is even older than I thought. Look at the way he talks about his "whole adult life" and the way he goes on about life being unsatisfying. Sounds almost like a midlife crisis to me.

Actaully it is the mid level crisis that all fighters go through as they see the center of power move to the spellcasters.

[Schattendrache]

*snort*

Not while I'm drinking!

[IonStorm]

Lessons learned from #178:

1. Since V can cast spells in lizard form without somatic components, but with verbal ones, s/he must have the silent spell feat.
2. V does not have the following spells in his/her spell book or is of insufficient level to cast them with the above metamagic feat .
SRD spell name (level)
Blindness/Deafness (2)
Blur (2)
Charm Monster, Mass (8)
Contact Other Plane (5)
Darkness (2)
Dimension Door (4)
Displacement (3)
Flare (0)
Geas (4,6)
Irresistible Dance (8)
Knock (2)
Light (0) !!!!
Mage's Disjunction (9)
Phase Door (7)
Power Word Blind, Kill, Stun (7, 9, 8)
Prismatic Sphere (9)
Shout (4)
Teleport (5)
Teleport Object (7)
Teleport, Greater (7)
Teleportation Circle (9)
Time Stop (9)
Tongues (3)
True Strike (1)
Ventriloquism (1)
Wail of the Banshee (9)
Wish (9)

<Edit: Hit return before I had finished by accident>

[Dire_Armadillo]

Now that is what I call over-analysis! Well done.

[Kish]

2. V does not have the following spells in his/her spell book or is of insufficient level to cast them with the above metamagic feat .
SRD spell name (level)
Flare (0)
Light (0) !!!!

Technically, Vaarsuvius can have those in his/her spellbook and still say "there are only three spells I can cast in this form," because they're cantrips rather than true spells. (Hey, this is the thread for over-analysis.)

It's also possible that s/he has them in his/her first spellbook and didn't bring that spellbook along to the Dungeon of Dorukan, choosing to budget space in his/her current traveling spellbook more efficiently (and leave Flare and Light out).

[Berkeley]

Lessons learned from #178:
...
2. V does not have the following spells in his/her spell book or is of insufficient level to cast them with the above metamagic feat.
...
Time Stop (9)
...
Wish (9)

Behold, comic #49. V definitely has Time Stop and Wish in his/her spellbook, at least.

[Kish]

I wouldn't be so sure. By that point, s/he might have meant, "Theoretically, if I could offer them, would you trade your stupid Fly spell for...?"

However, unless Vaarsuvius is able to cast tenth level spells (Time Stop or Wish modified by the Silent Spell feat), it's academic at the moment.

[Berkeley]

I wouldn't be so sure. By that point, s/he might have meant, "Theoretically, if I could offer them, would you trade your stupid Fly spell for...?"

This is true. V was no longer looking at his/her spellbook by that point.

However, unless Vaarsuvius is able to cast tenth level spells (Time Stop or Wish modified by the Silent Spell feat), it's academic at the moment.

"As a rule of thumb, I tend to think of them as being around 7th-9th level or so; powerful enough to have a bunch of different storytelling options, weak enough that I can justify them running away from anything I throw at them." Thus, there are no guarantees, but with the level in town, V should now be in the 8-10 range.

[AtomicKitKat]

Thus, there are no guarantees, but with the level in town, V should now be in the 8-10 range.

It's been confirmed that the party is probably level 10-12 by now. V cast "Cone of Cold" and "accidentally" froze Elan some strips back, and the party has since levelled at least once(twice?)

[IonStorm]

I will shamelessly quote myself:

168: Haley shoots 3 arrows with Manyshot feat. Prerequisites: Dex 17, Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, base attack bonus +11.

If you assume that in 62 she fired the maximum number of arrows she could at the time (2), then leveled up in 124 and fired the maximum number of arrows in 168 (3), then Haley is now exactly a 15th level rogue.

Furthermore, this evidence is strong because it was a detail included which was not part of a joke, and thus better reflects "reality."

Thus, at #168 Haley was a maximum of 15th level rogue and a minimum of Rogue 2/Fighter 10. This configuration gives her a bab of 11 and evasion (see #19) with the minimum number of levels. It is possible to substitute barbarian for fighter, but this seems even more unlikely. Ranger cannot be used, as she does not have the track feat.

However, since all characters level up essentially simultaneously (#124) they are all at the same level and none have XP penalties for multi-classing (Belkar had not yet taken his level of barbarian). So Haley could have been at the lowest Rogue 7/Fighter 6 (or the reverse). This is possible given the respect Roy gives her in strategizing, but I still think she better represents the pure rogue archetype.

[Dire_Armadillo]

Maybe, but she could also be at least an 8th level rogue and using the rapid shot feat. Although it certainly looks like three arrows fired at once it could very well, in a single panel, be a representation of three shots fired in rapid succession.

[geek_2049]

A couple of notes on Roy's Int
Claim 1: Roy has the an Int of at least 17
Assuming Roy has Str 17 (#38?)
Assume your class is directly related to your high stat or in this case Roy has his own best interest in mind.
Assume Roy's parents have Roy's best interest in mind
So, if Roy and Roy's parents both have Roy's best interest in mind w/respect to his high stat, ie Wizard School as opposed to Fighter School, then Roy was equally suited for both fighter and wizard one can infer that his respective stats were equal at the time he went to college.
Hence, based on previous assumtions Roy's Int is equal to his Str which is equal to 17.
QED
*No ability increases are considered, since his Lvl is unknown both in general and when he went to college*

Claim 2: Roy has the high Int of the party
Anyone who can use a Bag of Tricks in combat effectively is super Int, ie 18+. Roy accomplished such a task. Hence Roy's Int is 18+. QED
A similar arguement can be used for the mind flayer picking Roy's brain over V's.

[Sped55]

Intersting topic. I think each character has 1 18
Roys 18-Strengh(I know thats spelled wrong)
Belkars18-I think he has a 12 in Dex and 12 in strengh
Haleys 18-Dexterity
Elans18-Charisma
Durkons18-Con
Varssviases(or however you would spell that)18-Int

[Kevlimin_Soulaxe]

I think the reason why the Mindflayer chose Roy over V is that Roy has a very nice blend of Intellgence, Wisdom, and Charisma. He is fairly smart, doesn't make exeptionally poor choices, and has enough Charisma to recruit this band of adventurers and keep them together. Eat that all you one high one low stat cop-outs!

[Kish]

A couple of notes on Roy's Int
Claim 1: Roy has the an Int of at least 17
Assuming Roy has Str 17 (#38?)
Assume your class is directly related to your high stat or in this case Roy has his own best interest in mind.

Erm.
You mean, "Assume Roy would automatically choose a class which stereotypically relies on his best stat"? That sounds a lot weaker than "Assume Roy has his own best interest in mind," yet it's what you're actually assuming here.

Assume Roy's parents have Roy's best interest in mind

Again, do you mean, "Assume Roy's father would both know Roy's ability scores, and would only want him to become a wizard if Intelligence is at least tied for highest"?
That sounds even weaker, but, again, it's what you're actually assuming.

So, if Roy and Roy's parents

...are both thinking entirely in terms of, "Roy should be the class that stereotypically goes with his highest ability score,"...

then Roy was equally suited for both fighter and wizard one can infer that his respective stats were equal at the time he went to college.
Hence, based on previous assumtions Roy's Int is equal to his Str which is equal to 17.
QED

QE very-much-not-D. We know why Roy chose to be a fighter--their family has a rich heritage as warriors. We know why his father wanted him to be a wizard--said father was himself a wizard. You think Roy would have said, "You're right, I should be a wizard" if his Strength had been lower than his Intelligence? You think that his father would have said, "You're right, you should go learn how to stick people with sharp pieces of metal" if his Intelligence had been lower than his Strength? I sure don't. That's without considering that Roy's father may not have even known his ability scores--and I can't believe his father wouldn't have thrown in a line like "a natural 17 Intelligence wasted training in how to brawl" if he knew Roy had 17 Intelligence.

For that matter, wouldn't Roy have more than one rank of Ride if he had that many skill points? :P

Anyone who can use a Bag of Tricks in combat effectively is super Int, ie 18+. Roy accomplished such a task.

Actually, he never used it effectively in combat. He used it effectively to set up ambushes, to get the others untied, and to give the group a bad name in the eyes of the blue-robed figure, but when he tried to use it in combat, he unimpressed a green thing and got smashed by a rhino.
And your basic premise could use more support, too.

[BurntOfferings]

Thus, at #168 Haley was a maximum of 15th level rogue and a minimum of Rogue 2/Fighter 10. This configuration gives her a bab of 11 and evasion (see #19) with the minimum number of levels. It is possible to substitute barbarian for fighter, but this seems even more unlikely. Ranger cannot be used, as she does not have the track feat.

Note for clarity: IonStorm's analysis assumes Haley is using Manyshot in #168.

I submit that Haley is not, in fact, using Manyshot in #168. Look below Haley in the panel where she shoots Samantha, and you'll see

fft!
fft!
fft!

which I think signifies three distinct shots. So Haley could be only an 8th level rogue.

[BurntOfferings]

[Elan] could have been level 6 at the time [comic #2]. Although then you have the problem of "If he had -1 Int modifier, shouldn't he only have gotten 1 skill point per level and thus received 2 skill points per level in the upgrade?" I think the only way to solve this would be that he has 3 Int(-4 modifier), subtracting 4 points from (4+Int mod) with a minimum of 1 skill point per level, then when 3.5 rolls around, he gets 6-4-1=1 more skill point per level. Voila, Elan is Int 3....

If Elan was 6th level and had an Int of only 3 at the time of conversion, he would have gained 18 skill points, not six.

3rd edition: 4 - 4 (Int) + 1 (human) = 1/level
3.5 edition: 6 - 4 (Int) + 1 (human) = 3/level

Factor in quadruple skill points at level 1, and Elan would have to be 4th level with an Int of 1 for his "six new skill points" ditty to refer to actual new skill points.

I still say 8 or 9.

[Kevlimin_Soulaxe]

You can never gain zero skill points. A fighter with an intelligiance of 3 still gets one. So 3rd edition Elan under that assumption would still get 2 skill points per level.

[AtomicKitKat]

If Elan was 6th level and had an Int of only 3 at the time of conversion, he would have gained 18 skill points, not six.

3rd edition: 4 - 4 (Int) + 1 (human) = 1/level
3.5 edition: 6 - 4 (Int) + 1 (human) = 3/level

Factor in quadruple skill points at level 1, and Elan would have to be 4th level with an Int of 1 for his "six new skill points" ditty to refer to actual new skill points.

I still say 8 or 9.

Elan at worst has the barest possible intelligence to be an adventurer(3). I still doubt that he was singing about the 6 "in general". His thought patterns are just not that complex.

[Kish]

Considering he thinks 6+6=10 , I'd say the answer is that Elan made an error in calculating his skill points. He only thinks he has six new skill points.

[The Giant]

Re: Elan singing: Elan is singing about his new number of base skill points per level; bards went from 4 to 6 in 3.5. He is not actually gaining any skill points, because skill point gains aren't retroactive, and he is not taking into account his Intelligence penalty because, as noted, he's bad at simple math.
--------------

I submit that Haley is not, in fact, using Manyshot in #168. Look below Haley in the panel where she shoots Samantha, and you'll see

fft! fft! fft!

which I think signifies three distinct shots. So Haley could be only an 8th level rogue.

You are correct. The three arrows are fired so that they are staggered; this is a Rapid Shot attack with a BAB between +6 and +10 (Two shots at full BAB-2, one shot at BAB-7). A Manyshot would have shown all three arrows even with each other, and only made one sound effect.
--------------

I think the reason why the Mindflayer chose Roy over V is that Roy has a very nice blend of Intellgence, Wisdom, and Charisma. He is fairly smart, doesn't make exeptionally poor choices, and has enough Charisma to recruit this band of adventurers and keep them together. Eat that all you one high one low stat cop-outs!

Correct. V has a higher Int, but has a moderate Wisdom and a poor Charisma (shouting about your arcane power all day is not the way to make friends). Roy has a very good Int, a very good Wis, and a decent Charisma. Thus, he's the most filling meal.
--------------

1. Since V can cast spells in lizard form without somatic components, but with verbal ones, s/he must have the silent spell feat.

In OOTS land, you just need to be able to speak the name of the spell to count as a verbal component. It doesn't matter what language that name is in. V is speaking Lizardese, but he can still say "Feather Fall". He does not know the Silent Spell feat.

2. V does not have the following spells in his/her spell book or is of insufficient level to cast them with the above metamagic feat .

Cantrips are cantrips, not spells. V cannot cast spells of 7th level or higher as far as we have seen. And so far, all teleportation spells have been suspiciously absent from the elf's repetoire. The rest, just aren't in his spellbook yet.

[Scorpina]

He does not know the Silent Spell feat.

Unless you come up with a gag that requires him to have it for some reason...

[IonStorm]

I stand corrected.

[Vik]

V is speaking Lizardese, but he can still say "Feather Fall". He does not know the Silent Spell feat.
Cantrips are cantrips, not spells. V cannot cast spells of 7th level or higher as far as we have seen. And so far, all teleportation spells have been suspiciously absent from the elf's repetoire. The rest, just aren't in his spellbook yet.

So, are you telling us that you see V' as a male ? :P
Welcome to the Place for over-analysis, Rich ;D

[Kevlimin_Soulaxe]

Hmmm....Rich got the 200th post in a thread over-examining his work....I am pretty sure this is also his first. I think we can read into this a little more...



w00t! Validated by the Giant! Uh-huh!

[AtomicKitKat]

Re: Elan singing: Elan is singing about his new number of base skill points per level; bards went from 4 to 6 in 3.5. He is not actually gaining any skill points, because skill point gains aren't retroactive, and he is not taking into account his Intelligence penalty because, as noted, he's bad at simple math.

'Ang on a tick, the increased skill points for bards(and any other classes that gained skill points from 3 to 3.5?) are not counted retroactively when converting/upgrading/updating characters from 3 to 3.5? That's a bit of a gyp...

[BurntOfferings]

Re: Elan singing: Elan is singing about his new number of base skill points per level; bards went from 4 to 6 in 3.5. He is not actually gaining any skill points, because skill point gains aren't retroactive, and he is not taking into account his Intelligence penalty because, as noted, he's bad at simple math.
--------------
[Re: Haley using Rapid Shot or Manyshot]
You are correct. The three arrows are fired so that they are staggered; this is a Rapid Shot attack with a BAB between +6 and +10 (Two shots at full BAB-2, one shot at BAB-7). A Manyshot would have shown all three arrows even with each other, and only made one sound effect.

Woohoo! Two for two! ;D

I agree with AtomicKitKat. Elan and Belkar got gypped if they didn't get extra skill points on conversion. >:(

Wait a minute.... If rangers and bards don't get extra skill points retroactively, why was Belkar specifically waiting for skill points in #1 ("C'mon, c'mon. Daddy needs some new skill points!"), and why does Elan get a "Ping!" and then say, "Ooh! Skill points!" :-/

[Nerd-o-rama]

They (and everybody else) don't get retroactive skill points from an INT increase. However, they would logically have their skill point totals updated when converted to 3.5, in the same way that Elan "magically" got a chain shirt in the middle of a dungeon crawl. In other words, they got skill points because the rules changed. Incidentally, if the Order's DM is evil, Belkar probably lost HP or had to reroll them, since he went from a d10 hit die to a d8.

[The Giant]

So, are you telling us that you see V' as a male ? :P
Welcome to the Place for over-analysis, Rich ;D

I'm saying that the English language often uses "he" for the pronoun when no gender is specifically known.

[Sc00by]

I'm saying that the English language often uses "he" for the pronoun when no gender is specifically known.

QFE

Good answer ;)