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  1. - Top - End - #151
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    Default Re: OOTS #1048 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by dtilque View Post
    Even with that, I still don't think there's a contradiction or lie. There's some cross-communication there. Eugene is concerned about the details of the oath and the deva is concerned about whether he's Good and Lawful enough. Yes, she doesn't point out the details are different than he thinks, but that's because that would detract from the point of the strip. Deal with it.
    I agree. I think it's pretty reasonable to take that as an example of Roy being Lawful and Good, especially if Roy was never bound to the oath to begin with.

  2. - Top - End - #152
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    Default Re: OOTS #1048 - The Discussion Thread

    If Roy fails and Blood Oath will be carried over to Remade World, with Xykon dead by the hands of third party - Eugene is stuck on the cloud forever, right?

    Or if he is getting kicked out of Celestia due to shifted alignment and Roy gets there - he might never see Roy again, probably, no?

    All the good reasons to pay one last visit to his son.

    And if he is so good with scrying and has literally nothing else to do but watch and think, then he saw what Roy is doing, i.e. that he needs to unlock his sword's power and in what way.

    All the good reasons to pay one last visit to his son and ANNOY THE CRAP OUT OF HIM!

    Because if Eugene just tells Roy to "just remember how you hate me, your father", it will make Roy feel less righteous anger for him, since he would be both helpful and admitting his flaws to a point.

    Eugene probably did the last and best thing he could do for Roy, by doing the thing he is best at.

  3. - Top - End - #153
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    Default Re: OOTS #1048 - The Discussion Thread

    Just wanted to point out that today's Father's Day in Brazil (2nd Sunday of August). These last strips are a refreshing remark on a healthy father-son relationship.

  4. - Top - End - #154
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    Default Re: OOTS #1048 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by dtilque View Post
    Even with that, I still don't think there's a contradiction or lie. There's some cross-communication there. Eugene is concerned about the details of the oath and the deva is concerned about whether he's Good and Lawful enough. Yes, she doesn't point out the details are different than he thinks, but that's because that would detract from the point of the strip. Deal with it.
    You haven't convinced me that the Deva meant it that way, at as other conversation details seem unimportant in that case even if they don't contradict. You have though convinced me that it is at least consistent enough to not be as surprised if it turns out to work this way.
    Quote Originally Posted by Grod_The_Giant View Post
    We should try to make that a thing; I think it might help civility. Hey, GitP, let's try to make this a thing: when you're arguing optimization strategies, RAW-logic, and similar such things that you'd never actually use in a game, tag your post [THEORETICAL] and/or use green text

  5. - Top - End - #155
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    Default Re: OOTS #1048 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by georgie_leech View Post
    You haven't convinced me that the Deva meant it that way, at as other conversation details seem unimportant in that case even if they don't contradict. You have though convinced me that it is at least consistent enough to not be as surprised if it turns out to work this way.
    How does "Your son is getting in because he died in the process of attempting to fulfill the oath" not directly contradict the assertion that he got in for a reason completely unrelated to his efforts to fulfill the oath?

    If you want to say you believe the deva lied rather than that the words Eugene said didn't detail the entirety of the oath's effects, that's one thing, but simply ignoring the deva's words makes no sense.
    Last edited by Kish; 2016-08-14 at 10:57 AM.

  6. - Top - End - #156
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    Default Re: OOTS #1048 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    How does "Your son is getting in because he died in the process of attempting to fulfill the oath" not directly contradict the assertion that he got in for a reason completely unrelated to his efforts to fulfill the oath?

    If you want to say you believe the deva lied rather than that the words Eugene said didn't detail the entirety of the oath's effects, that's one thing, but simply ignoring the deva's words makes no sense.
    Yeah, which is one of the bits of text that makes less sense in the 'Blood Oaths only bind the swearers' interpretation. All I'm saying is that it's hard to argue that following a Blood Oath regardless of mystic consequences isn't very Lawful in itself. So if it turns out as a plot point later that yeah, the Blood Oath only binds Eugene, I'd look at it as sloppy writing rather than a retcon. I still think the Blood Oath is better supported as binding heirs too. If I had to give numbers, I'd say 95/5 in favor of heirs being bound. After all, any dramatic word could be used if all that was wanted was a fancy name, but there's a whole book named with the English idiom of referring to 'Family' as 'Blood.' The argument added 5% to the not-Roy-binding odds.
    Quote Originally Posted by Grod_The_Giant View Post
    We should try to make that a thing; I think it might help civility. Hey, GitP, let's try to make this a thing: when you're arguing optimization strategies, RAW-logic, and similar such things that you'd never actually use in a game, tag your post [THEORETICAL] and/or use green text

  7. - Top - End - #157
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    Default Re: OOTS #1048 - The Discussion Thread

    I always did find it odd that the wording of the Blood Oath only bound Eugene explicitly, and that the other Oath spirit we've seen has family already in the afterlife, and yet Eugene (who's seen a bunch of other waiting oathspirits) seems convinced that Roy will be bound by it too and the Deva never contradicts that idea. I think that The Giant may have just worded the oath a little imprecisely without realizing it.
    I am: Neutral Good: -2 chaos, -21 evil and 15 balance!

    Quote Originally Posted by Dalek Kommander View Post
    Heartless? Those flaming letters spelled ELAN! How many sons can honestly say their father has murdered dozens of human beings just to show how much they care?

    Tarquin's fatherly love is truly unique... or at least I hope it is!
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    First, I'm impressed that this topic went so far off topic that it ended up back at The Order of the Stick.
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  8. - Top - End - #158
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    Default Re: OOTS #1048 - The Discussion Thread

    Could be just "If you die trying- you get in" again - with Violet, like Eugene, giving up, but Violet's family (until one succeeded) kept dying trying, which is why they're in and she's not.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1048 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    Could be just "If you die trying- you get in" again - with Violet, like Eugene, giving up, but Violet's family (until one succeeded) kept dying trying, which is why they're in and she's not.
    That would make sense! The wording of the oath is still a bit odd, but I'm willing to chalk that up as a minor continuity mistake.
    I am: Neutral Good: -2 chaos, -21 evil and 15 balance!

    Quote Originally Posted by Dalek Kommander View Post
    Heartless? Those flaming letters spelled ELAN! How many sons can honestly say their father has murdered dozens of human beings just to show how much they care?

    Tarquin's fatherly love is truly unique... or at least I hope it is!
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    First, I'm impressed that this topic went so far off topic that it ended up back at The Order of the Stick.
    Can't find the strip you're looking for? Head on over to OOTS Strip Summaries!

  10. - Top - End - #160
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    Default Re: OOTS #1048 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by DaggerPen View Post
    I always did find it odd that the wording of the Blood Oath only bound Eugene explicitly, and that the other Oath spirit we've seen has family already in the afterlife, and yet Eugene (who's seen a bunch of other waiting oathspirits) seems convinced that Roy will be bound by it too and the Deva never contradicts that idea. I think that The Giant may have just worded the oath a little imprecisely without realizing it.
    I don't think he worded it imprecisely for what he was trying to do. I think when Eugene said "I didn't know it would keep me out of the afterlife or be passed down to my descendants," that was supposed to be genuine, not a case of, "He was lying about what he'd explicitly said previously." He took an oath that spoke of vague dire consequences for breaking it and assumed those consequences would be less than they actually are. Kind of the way he assumed there would never be consequences he'd care about for making his disinterest in everything about his son but the wizard that son would one day be obvious.

  11. - Top - End - #161
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    Default Re: OOTS #1048 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    How does "Your son is getting in because he died in the process of attempting to fulfill the oath" not directly contradict the assertion that he got in for a reason completely unrelated to his efforts to fulfill the oath?

    If you want to say you believe the deva lied rather than that the words Eugene said didn't detail the entirety of the oath's effects, that's one thing, but simply ignoring the deva's words makes no sense.
    The deva did not lie. But her statement there had to do with whether Roy was Good and Lawful enough to get in. He has a spotty record, so it's the thing that puts him over the top. Her one statement on the oath is in the previous strip: "It's not a problem for us."

    Now this assertion you have a problem with is, I think, something I said earlier in this thread:
    Despite what was said when they let Roy into Celestia, that's the real reason he got in while Eugene did not.
    OK, I'll admit that was perhaps not the best way to say what I wanted to say. Let me rephrase it: "Despite what was said when they let Roy into Celestia, the deva did not override the oath when she let him in." Happier?
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  12. - Top - End - #162
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    Default Re: OOTS #1048 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    I thought by now the "Eugene's alignment" debate would have given up the ghost, but it seems that it's been going on so long people keep beating the dead horse, which seems like a very grave situation. C'mon, we know Eugene has a few skeletons in his closet, but he's still got a bone to pick with Xykon anyways.
    Wow, you worked in every pun you could there.

    Take a bow, you've earned it.

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    Last edited by Quibblicious; 2016-08-14 at 09:30 PM.
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  13. - Top - End - #163
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    Default Re: OOTS #1048 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Quibbilcious View Post
    Wow, you worked in every pun you could there.

    Take a bow, you've earned it.

    Q
    Thanks, you're the first person to comment about it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squire Doodad View Post
    I could write a lengthy explanation, but honestly just what danielxcutter said.
    Extended sig here.

  14. - Top - End - #164
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    Default Re: OOTS #1048 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by sammycat View Post
    Your mother is dead and speaks to you from beyond the grave?
    She could be in Cleveland and calling via Skype...

    Okay, not quite the same... but close

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    No one expects the Bardic Exposition!

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  15. - Top - End - #165
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    Default Re: OOTS #1048 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Quibbilcious View Post
    She could be in Cleveland and calling via Skype...

    Okay, not quite the same... but close

    Q
    Don't get it.
    Cool elan Illithid Slayer by linkele.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Squire Doodad View Post
    I could write a lengthy explanation, but honestly just what danielxcutter said.
    Extended sig here.

  16. - Top - End - #166
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    Default Re: OOTS #1048 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by zimmerwald1915 View Post
    Were there ever that many oathspirits to begin with? The only two we ever met were Eugene and Violet.
    I have a theory that Eugene is no longer outside the gates of Celestia. No strong evidence, but if the other oath spirits are no longer visible to him, maybe it's because he's been gently nudged to another afterlife, and another part of the demiplane where there are no oath spirits.

    Just a thought...

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    Default Re: OOTS #1048 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    Thanks, you're the first person to comment about it.
    I'm a bard and a father... puns are a big part of my life

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    No one expects the Bardic Exposition!

    Quibblicious.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1048 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    Don't get it.
    It references to an old joke about Cleveland being a terrible place to live; some even call it the Mistake on the Lake.

    It's a dated reference, I admit.

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    No one expects the Bardic Exposition!

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    Default Re: OOTS #1048 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Quibbilcious View Post
    I'm a bard and a father... puns are a big part of my life

    Q
    Oooh, I guess that makes me a...

    ...

    ...

    (Wait for it...)...

    A Pungeon Master, eh?

    I regret nothing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squire Doodad View Post
    I could write a lengthy explanation, but honestly just what danielxcutter said.
    Extended sig here.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1048 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    Oooh, I guess that makes me a...

    ...

    ...

    (Wait for it...)...

    A Pungeon Master, eh?

    I regret nothing.
    You're bringing this on yourself, Pungeon Master.
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  21. - Top - End - #171
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    Default Re: OOTS #1048 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by JumboWheat01 View Post
    You're bringing this on yourself, Pungeon Master.
    That was an intentional reference, FYI. I just hope I'll escape punishment.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squire Doodad View Post
    I could write a lengthy explanation, but honestly just what danielxcutter said.
    Extended sig here.

  22. - Top - End - #172
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    Default Re: OOTS #1048 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    That was an intentional reference, FYI. I just hope I'll escape punishment.
    One does not simply "escape" TVtropes. Even I was lost there for several minutes clicking through random articles just to punish you.
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  23. - Top - End - #173
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    Default Re: OOTS #1048 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by JumboWheat01 View Post
    One does not simply "escape" TVtropes. Even I was lost there for several minutes clicking through random articles just to punish you.
    *chuckles* Good one. Here's another one: How does a party consisting of an Abjurant Champion, a Cleric, a Psychic Warrior, and a Arcane Trickster sneeze?

    Gishundheit.


    (Hope I got you guys coffin with laughter with that one. ^^)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squire Doodad View Post
    I could write a lengthy explanation, but honestly just what danielxcutter said.
    Extended sig here.

  24. - Top - End - #174
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    Default Re: OOTS #1048 - The Discussion Thread

    Wait, he was just bored? That actually explains a lot.

    Also, if you think about it more, ending the world wouldn't be so bad if the dwarves didn't go to Hel.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1048 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by 8BitNinja View Post
    Wait, he was just bored? That actually explains a lot.

    Also, if you think about it more, ending the world wouldn't be so bad if the dwarves didn't go to Hel.
    To paraphrase an earlier comment I made on an earlier comic, 'when your plan involves your entire home plane being unmade so the gods can imprison their antithesis behind a thin wall of reality, you need a better plan.'
    Quote Originally Posted by Grod_The_Giant View Post
    We should try to make that a thing; I think it might help civility. Hey, GitP, let's try to make this a thing: when you're arguing optimization strategies, RAW-logic, and similar such things that you'd never actually use in a game, tag your post [THEORETICAL] and/or use green text

  26. - Top - End - #176
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    Default Re: OOTS #1048 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by 8BitNinja View Post
    Wait, he was just bored? That actually explains a lot.

    Also, if you think about it more, ending the world wouldn't be so bad if the dwarves didn't go to Hel.
    I guess you don't want me to write that saga about your adventures then...

    Fine, be that way. I'll just be over here working in chord progressions for some other saga.

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    No one expects the Bardic Exposition!

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    Default Re: OOTS #1048 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by georgie_leech View Post
    To paraphrase an earlier comment I made on an earlier comic, 'when your plan involves your entire home plane being unmade so the gods can imprison their antithesis behind a thin wall of reality, you need a better plan.'
    For one thing, in such a plan you are quite likely to lose your hat.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1048 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Omission and lie of omission are different things. A lie I found omission is omitting information with the specific goal of fostering a false belief; that is, omission to expressly lie.
    I do not see where the lying is.

    My interpretation was always that Roy's behavior towards the oath, in this case, by dying trying to fulfill it, is relevant to judging Roy's fitness. But that does not necessarily mean that how Roy is judged fits neatly within Eugene's understanding and expectations of the Oath. The Deva is not required to educate Eugene and Roy. It is not even clear that Celestia is required to adhere to the letter of the Oath at all.

    It might be a lie of omission if the Deva's incomplete description were likely to manipulate Roy into something he would not otherwise do anyway. But the Deva is literally sitting with Roy's file in front of her, and thinks she has a pretty good gauge of what kind of person Roy is. Is she somehow required to explain to Roy, "Hey, you can ignore this Oath thingy if you ever go back?" (if that were the case). I did not know the afterlife is required to precisely correct misconceptions about the living world, especially when Roy probably understands the gist of what is going on by being waved forward.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1048 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Snails View Post
    I do not see where the lying is.
    You don't see that asserting that Roy's afterlife destination was never dependent on his trying to fulfill the oath, requires that "Your son is getting in because he died in the process of attempting to fulfill the oath" is a lie? Huh.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1048 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    You don't see that asserting that Roy's afterlife destination was never dependent on his trying to fulfill the oath, requires that "Your son is getting in because he died in the process of attempting to fulfill the oath" is a lie? Huh.
    I don't see that as a lie.
    Keeping his word by attempting to fulfill an oath that somebody else made out a sense of responsibility for his father's mistakes is Lawful, especially if it gets to the point of dying out of this sense of responsibility.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lawful
    Lawful characters tell the truth, keep their word, respect authority, honor tradition, and judge those who fall short of their duties.
    [...]
    “Law” implies honor, trustworthiness, obedience to authority, and reliability. On the downside, lawfulness can include close-mindedness, reactionary adherence to tradition, judgmentalness, and a lack of adaptability. Those who consciously promote lawfulness say that only lawful behavior creates a society in which people can depend on each other and make the right decisions in full confidence that others will act as they should.
    Bolded are the relevant parts.

    Trying to fulfill an oath because it helps him save the world from an Evil world-domination type who murders out of boredom, and also because someone Roy dislikes is kept out of eternal rest until the oath is fulfilled, is Good, especially if it reaches the point of dying in attempt to save the world and the population of a city.
    Quote Originally Posted by Good
    Good characters and creatures protect innocent life.

    “Good” implies altruism, respect for life, and a concern for the dignity of sentient beings. Good characters make personal sacrifices to help others.
    Bolded are the relevant parts.

    "Your son is getting in because he died in the process of attempting to fulfill the oath" is not a lie because Roy attempting to fulfill this oath is both a Good and a Lawful thing. The Celestial already made a case that Roy could have easily been put in another afterlife, but his dying act (attempting to fulfill the oath) was incredibly Good and Lawful, and that was what secured his spot in Celestia. It's not a lie if it's completely true.
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