Uncannily Dodging the Moon

[Calimehter]

So . . .

Dropping massive objects onto creatures for massive amounts of damage is something I've seen on the forums from time to time, usually in the form of "this is one of many things a high level caster can do to mess you up no matter how big your numbers are".

However, Heroes of Battle has a (seemingly) obscure rule in it allowing for a DC 15 Reflex save to avoid *all* damage from a falling object.

Does this negate the use of 'Mages as mass-drivers' as anything other than a Hail Mary?

Edit: Sorry to edit a post before any replies, but I forgot to give credit to facepalm for bringing this up in the Seraphim thread. I had actually read it much earlier, but clean forgotten about it till he mentioned it.

[sreservoir]

evasion, I think you mean?

[Boci]

However, Heroes of Battle has a (seemingly) obscure rule in it allowing for a DC 15 Reflex save to avoid *all* damage from a falling object.

Does this negate the use of 'Mages as mass-drivers' as anything other than a Hail Mary?

Only if that rule is in affect. If the group doesn't use HoB they may not use it, whether or not they know about it.

[Doc Roc]

Dodging is great but we don't drop the moon to kill piddling ants one by one. We're in the business of extermination, in short, we're after your planet.

[druid91]

Dodging is great but we don't drop the moon to kill piddling ants one by one. We're in the business of extermination, in short, we're after your planet.

And this helps you how?

Now you simply made everything worse, as the martial types with all their magical gear harvest all of earth/toril/ whatever natural resources and attack your wizardly space castle with a 100 mile long star cruiser, flanked by giant mecha powered by the sheer manliness and fighting spirit of those within....

Yes I did indeed just turn the battle between Martial types and Magic types into tengen toppa gurren lagaan.

[Doc Roc]

And this helps you how?

Now you simply made everything worse, as the martial types with all their magical gear harvest all of earth/toril/ whatever natural resources and attack your wizardly space castle with a 100 mile long star cruiser, flanked by giant mecha powered by the sheer manliness and fighting spirit of those within....

Yes I did indeed just turn the battle between Martial types and Magic types into tengen toppa gurren lagaan.

Um. Yes, they'll make all these great things with their 8 int, no knowledge skills, and no ability to make magic items. GLHF.

[The-Mage-King]

And this helps you how?

Now you simply made everything worse, as the martial types with all their magical gear harvest all of earth/toril/ whatever natural resources and attack your wizardly space castle with a 100 mile long star cruiser, flanked by giant mecha powered by the sheer manliness and fighting spirit of those within....

Yes I did indeed just turn the battle between Martial types and Magic types into tengen toppa gurren lagaan.

...I want to play in that campaign.

[druid91]

Um. Yes, they'll make all these great things with their 8 int, no knowledge skills, and no ability to make magic items. GLHF.

Experts and artificers.

[Boci]

Experts

Still no ability to craft magical gear.

artificers.

Not martial.

[druid91]

Still no ability to craft magical gear.



Not martial.

Why not?

Are you about to tell me bruenor battlehammer isn't a martial character?
Dwarves whole existence undermines that argument.

It certainly isn't a spellcaster, so what is it then? Because it is either martial or magical.

And making awesome swords seems like a martial thing to me.

[Doc Roc]

Why not?

Are you about to tell me bruenor battlehammer isn't a martial character?
Dwarves whole existence undermines that argument.

It certainly isn't a spellcaster, so what is it then? Because it is either martial or magical.

And making awesome swords seems like a martial thing to me.

That's because you're invested in them not being something, because you want to win this argument. Artificers have as their core skill use magical device. I consider magical devices to be moderately magical, and the use of them to be also moderately magical. Thus, constructing magical devices with your magical skills sounds to me like it might be... brace.... magical.


Also. Dwarves are commonly competent arcanists, and competent arcane artisans.

[druid91]

That's because you're invested in them not being something, because you want to win this argument. Artificers have as their core skill use magical device. I consider magical devices to be moderately magical, and the use of them to be also moderately magical. Thus, constructing magical devices with your magical skills sounds to me like it might be... brace.... magical.


Also. Dwarves are commonly competent arcanists, and competent arcane artisans.

Yet dwarves made magical equipment in many sources, despite not being able to be wizards/sorcerers until 3.X.

The stereotypical dwarf can't cast spells or use magic. but they can make magical items. Without explaining that you can't simply say artificers are on the magical side.

More like constructing magical devices with your expert craftsmanship. Which sounds dwarfy to me.

Anyway it's a moot point. Because, their is a skill known as architecture and engineering.

Give em a few years and they have a fleet of star destroyers.

EDIT: And aren't you similarly invested in them being something to win this argument? I've always seen artificers as more akin to fighters than wizards. I just thought "Oh ok, so they are like dwarves cool."

[Boci]

And making awesome swords seems like a martial thing to me.

It may, and in many fantasy novels it certainly is, but in D&D 3.5 it isn't, since unless by awesome you mean masterwork or some obscure PrC, martial characters cannot craft awesome weapons.

Yet dwarves made magical equipment in many sources, despite not being able to be wizards/sorcerers until 3.X.

Sorcerors didn't exist and they could be wizards. Also, this is a D&D 3.5 discussion.

The stereotypical dwarf can't cast spells or use magic. but they can make magical items. Without explaining that you can't simply say artificers are on the magical side.[/QUOTE]

Yes I can. You are talking about a fantasy novel, not D&D 3.5 rules.

More like constructing magical devices with your expert craftsmanship. Which sounds dwarfy to me.

That explains why you need to be able to cast spells to craft most kinds of magical gear.

Anyway it's a moot point. Because, their is a skill known as architecture and engineering.

Give em a few years and they have a fleet of star destroyers.

And what can the wizards do in so much time (assuming they were board and actually gave them a fighting chance)?

EDIT: And aren't you similarly invested in them being something to win this argument? I've always seen artificers as more akin to fighters than wizards. I just thought "Oh ok, so they are like dwarves cool."

They have medium BAB, meager proficiencies, little class features relating directly to combat and the ability to magically improve, alter and disable items and mechanical beings. What about that says martial?

[Doc Roc]

I can't believe we're having this argument. It just boggles my mind. But let me be clear here: This is a game, it has rules, and these rules are used to discuss the game under most circumstances. If you'd like to instead discuss your favorite fantasy novels, I'd love to have the conversation there, but it's not the same one. In fact, I'd prefer that conversation, since I'm running low on books in my reading list.

I think here, your argument is best described as hugely tenuous.
Artificers are generally described in the fluff as arcane artisans, even more deeply invested in the hermetic\vancian tradition of preparation as the root of magical power.

[The-Mage-King]

And why is no-one bringing up the (IIRC) dwarf only magic weapon and armor crafter class from MoI?

[druid91]

It may, and in many fantasy novels it certainly is, but in D&D 3.5 it isn't, since unless by awesome you mean masterwork or some obscure PrC, martial characters cannot craft awesome weapons.



Sorcerors didn't exist and they could be wizards. Also, this is a D&D 3.5 discussion.

The stereotypical dwarf can't cast spells or use magic. but they can make magical items. Without explaining that you can't simply say artificers are on the magical side.

Yes I can. You are talking about a fantasy novel, not D&D 3.5 rules.



That explains why you need to be able to cast spells to craft most kinds of magical gear.



And what can the wizards do in so much time (assuming they were board and actually gave them a fighting chance)?



They have medium BAB, meager proficiencies, little class features relating directly to combat and the ability to magically improve, alter and disable items and mechanical beings. What about that says martial?

Yet that's what we are arguing over, I believe that the artificer is "the martial character who makes awesome wepons." You don't.

Actually no I'm talking about the stereotypical dwarf presented in the players handbook and my dim recollections of races of stone. Dwarven culture extols the virtues of combat, The multitude of bonuses they get to attack due to the special martial training of the dwarves, favored class fighter. In every way you look at it dwarven wizards are the oddity not the rule.
And thus are we to expect that these odd ones are the ones who craft every magical weapon attributed to the dwarves? What about that greatsword crafted by the dwarf in Tome of battle? He certainly wasn't a spellcaster.

The weight of evidence in the dwarven fluff points towards artificers being martial. As dwarves simply don't respect magic, except in the form of craftsmanship.

The "I make a such a good sword, I don't need your skill" part.

I'd assume they'd be doing wizardly things. Like gloating about how they are invulnerable until the mecha smash through their window.

[Doc Roc]

I'd assume they'd be doing wizardly things. Like gloating about how they are invulnerable until the mecha smash through their window.

These guys are certifiable moon-droppers. They successfully dropped it. They probably got the gloat out of their system a while ago. I might expect there to be some slightly more....intriguing plots afoot. Like endless waves of simulacra, or planar-trait traps, or even just an empty castle.

And should you miraculously defeat our endless legions? Fight your way through our minefields? Find us, without the ability to track teleports or planeshifts? Enjoy your hollow victory. It won't bring your planet back, it won't revive your family. Only magic can do that, the magic you lack, that we have. You have failed so utterly as to be beneath our notice. Go back to playing with swords and ships.

[Boci]

Yet that's what we are arguing over, I believe that the artificer is "the martial character who makes awesome wepons." You don't.

So your definition of a martial class doesn't include an "is good at martial combat" clause? (In b4 the monk jokes.)

Actually no I'm talking about the stereotypical dwarf presented in the players handbook and my dim recollections of races of stone. Dwarven culture extols the virtues of combat, The multitude of bonuses they get to attack due to the special martial training of the dwarves, favored class fighter. In every way you look at it dwarven wizards are the oddity not the rule.
And thus are we to expect that these odd ones are the ones who craft every magical weapon attributed to the dwarves? What about that greatsword crafted by the dwarf in Tome of battle? He certainly wasn't a spellcaster.

The weight of evidence in the dwarven fluff points towards artificers being martial. As dwarves simply don't respect magic, except in the form of craftsmanship.

And this fluff existed before the artificer class, so your logic doesn't really work.

The "I make a such a good sword using magic, I don't need your skill" part.

Fixed for you.

I'd assume they'd be doing wizardly things. Like gloating about how they are invulnerable until the mecha smash through their window.

Or not, given their intelligence.

[CTrees]

If you'd like to instead discuss your favorite fantasy novels, I'd love to have the conversation there, but it's not the same one. In fact, I'd prefer that conversation, since I'm running low on books in my reading list.

Well then, have you read Kraken, by China Mieville? Modern fantasy (in and around London, actually) as opposed to the steampunky setting of his amazing Bas-Leg trilogy, but it's a lot of fun. I'll avoid spoilers, but there are some tremendously fun ideas (for example, "angels of memory" - basically guardian angels of museums, which seem like they'd be great in D&D).

[Doc Roc]

Well then, have you read Kraken, by China Mieville? Modern fantasy (in and around London, actually) as opposed to the steampunky setting of his amazing Bas-Leg trilogy, but it's a lot of fun. I'll avoid spoilers, but there are some tremendously fun ideas (for example, "angels of memory" - basically guardian angels of museums, which seem like they'd be great in D&D).

I've chewed through most of Mieville's stuff except Kraken. Got burned on The City and The City so I gave it a rest for a bit. Any other good ones?

I just finished The Lies of Locke Lamora && Red Seas Under Red Skies, as well as the Tiffany Aching series by Pratchett.

[Kalaska'Agathas]

Yet that's what we are arguing over, I believe that the artificer is "the martial character who makes awesome wepons." You don't.

Ok, first of all, when you say Martial do you mean "Someone who is capable in the arts of War," or do you mean "Someone without the arts of Magic,"? Because the first does not necessarily require the second.

I will assume for this post that by Martial you mean Mundane, that is, someone without the arts of magic, specifically that which is Divine or Arcane.

Actually no I'm talking about the stereotypical dwarf presented in the players handbook and my dim recollections of races of stone. Dwarven culture extols the virtues of combat, The multitude of bonuses they get to attack due to the special martial training of the dwarves, favored class fighter. In every way you look at it dwarven wizards are the oddity not the rule.
And thus are we to expect that these odd ones are the ones who craft every magical weapon attributed to the dwarves? What about that greatsword crafted by the dwarf in Tome of battle? He certainly wasn't a spellcaster.

Dwarves may get all of those martial bonuses and may have favored class: Fighter, and so Wizards are likely the exception not the rule. However, being that mechanically speaking only those with Arcane or Divine abilities (or class features which allow them to substitute these with other magical abilities) can craft magical items, I do not see how it presents a problem that the "odd ones" are also those who have crafted "every magical weapon attributed to the dwarves." And regarding the greatsword crafted by the dwarf in Tome of Battle - I know not to what you are referring, but would ask what necessitates that said dwarf crafted said greatsword? Was the greatsword magical? These questions need to be answered before the dwarf and greatsword in question may be used as evidence.

The weight of evidence in the dwarven fluff points towards artificers being martial. As dwarves simply don't respect magic, except in the form of craftsmanship.

I don't personally see a problem with a 'Martial' Artificer, inasmuch as I define 'Martial' as "with the art of war." However, it seems to me that you are using 'Martial' when you mean 'Mundane' which Artificers are explicitly not.

And I don't see where you get the idea that dwarves don't respect magic - look at the Forgotten Realms, where Dwarves have ancient and respected magical traditions (i.e. Rune Magic).

The "I make a such a good sword, I don't need your skill" part.

There's a mechanic for that already - it's called making a Masterwork Weapon. This has defined benefits, none of which are magical and none of which really match magic.

I'd assume they'd be doing wizardly things. Like gloating about how they are invulnerable until the mecha smash through their window.

Wizardly things like what? I don't see how gloating is part of a Wizard's daily routine - actively preparing for the contingency of someone 'smashing through their window' however would be right up their alley.

And you seem to assume that Mecha have some sort of supernatural anti-Wizard powers - they don't. Any of the many means a Wizard has of fighting an Iron Colossus would work, and since your mech doesn't have an AMF (as it's mundanely crafted, natch) there are even more options for dealing with it than the Colossus.

Incidentally, the nearest things to mecha in the published D&D corpus, at least that I can find, are Constructs and Clockwork Armor, both of which explicitly require casting ability to craft.

[The-Mage-King]

Hi, me again, trying to say this about the current subject of this already derailed thread!

Ironsoul Forgemaster. It is a dwarf only PrC. Yes, it uses meldshaping, but that isn't magic. It's merely borrowing from other souls. Just sayin' that maybe these guys make the dwarves "magic" swords and armor.

[Keld Denar]

Also, Battlesmith, I forgot the source but probably Races of Stone, is a non-casting PrC that gains a pseudo-CL with regards to crafting magical swag.

[Curmudgeon]

Only if that rule is in affect. If the group doesn't use HoB they may not use it, whether or not they know about it.

You don't need to have Heroes of Battle to arrive at exactly the same game effect. Check Dungeon Master's Guide II (page 49) for their collapsing ceiling trap; it's a DC 15 Reflex save to leap clear and take no damage (regardless of how big the ceiling is). DC 15 Reflex is I think the most common saving throw for "traps" (whether intentionally set, or actually just random falling stuff) in D&D. That's also the standard save for cave-ins and collapses in the DMG.

[druid91]

Ok, first of all, when you say Martial do you mean "Someone who is capable in the arts of War," or do you mean "Someone without the arts of Magic,"? Because the first does not necessarily require the second.

I will assume for this post that by Martial you mean Mundane, that is, someone without the arts of magic, specifically that which is Divine or Arcane.



Dwarves may get all of those martial bonuses and may have favored class: Fighter, and so Wizards are likely the exception not the rule. However, being that mechanically speaking only those with Arcane or Divine abilities (or class features which allow them to substitute these with other magical abilities) can craft magical items, I do not see how it presents a problem that the "odd ones" are also those who have crafted "every magical weapon attributed to the dwarves." And regarding the greatsword crafted by the dwarf in Tome of Battle - I know not to what you are referring, but would ask what necessitates that said dwarf crafted said greatsword? Was the greatsword magical? These questions need to be answered before the dwarf and greatsword in question may be used as evidence.



I don't personally see a problem with a 'Martial' Artificer, inasmuch as I define 'Martial' as "with the art of war." However, it seems to me that you are using 'Martial' when you mean 'Mundane' which Artificers are explicitly not.

And I don't see where you get the idea that dwarves don't respect magic - look at the Forgotten Realms, where Dwarves have ancient and respected magical traditions (i.e. Rune Magic).



There's a mechanic for that already - it's called making a Masterwork Weapon. This has defined benefits, none of which are magical and none of which really match magic.



Wizardly things like what? I don't see how gloating is part of a Wizard's daily routine - actively preparing for the contingency of someone 'smashing through their window' however would be right up their alley.

And you seem to assume that Mecha have some sort of supernatural anti-Wizard powers - they don't. Any of the many means a Wizard has of fighting an Iron Colossus would work, and since your mech doesn't have an AMF (as it's mundanely crafted, natch) there are even more options for dealing with it than the Colossus.

Incidentally, the nearest things to mecha in the published D&D corpus, at least that I can find, are Constructs and Clockwork Armor, both of which explicitly require casting ability to craft.

When I say martial I mean non-caster.

I do. It makes no sense that the guy who has the mildly disgraceful job of being wizard, is also the guy charged with the task of creating magical dwarven arms and armour.

I am referring to the legacy weapon of the stone dragon discipline. Crafted by a dwarven slave and wielded by his goliath assistant.

When I say martial I do not mean mundane, mundane means boring, ordinary.

I don't know a word to describe it other than earthy, dwarfy.

Wizards and their ilk are the representations of fire, water, and air, fickle and flighty, quick and powerful.

Artificers simply don't fit. They fit more with the slow dirty earthy, types. Strength of hardwork and determination you youngster wizards these days need to get off my lawn...

It's a weird method of explanation but I think I got my point across.

Rune magic, involves inscribed runes yes? Craftsmanship. When I say they don't respect magic I mean the wiggle your fingers and your enemy turns into a potato magic.

Technically their is also dwarvencraft weapons/armour. And the PrC in incarnum mentioned above. But there is also... Artificer, which you have yet to present me with a good reason, aside from the one I discarded of "it makes magic weapons and thus must be magic."

Yep every wizard must get his daily dose of gloating, and mad tinkering in or else he will die from combined curiosity and pride exploding his head off.

More seriously, wizards are wizards. When have you not known one to gloat a lot? Particularly evil ones?

Actually they do. They are an attended object (Prevents most forms of magical interference), and they block line of effect to the pilot.

And this is the part where we start getting into the fun part of D&D. Setting aside your rulebooks, and instead brainstorming.

What do you need to make a mecha? Well a metal shell that moves, with a pilot inside.

Now how would you do that, don't try and think of rules precedents. Think of how you could apply enchantments and minor engineering bits to make a giant robot.

[Boci]

I am referring to the legacy weapon of the stone dragon discipline. Crafted by a dwarven slave and wielded by his goliath assistant.

So D&D fluff isn't always suported by the mechanics. Your point? Besides, whilst rare, legacy items can be made from mundane weapons, although the book notes that such an event is rare.

Technically their is also dwarvencraft weapons/armour. And the PrC in incarnum mentioned above. But there is also... Artificer, which you have yet to present me with a good reason, aside from the one I discarded of "it makes magic weapons and thus must be magic."

1. You keep forgetting to add "with magic" after the bit about magic weapons.

2. You're reason for the artificer (a class with a list of limited spells) being martial is "I think it should".

[The-Mage-King]

I am referring to the legacy weapon of the stone dragon discipline. Crafted by a dwarven slave and wielded by his goliath assistant.

In addition to Boci's point about this, Legacy weapons do not work that way.


You do something suitably legendary with it, and then it gains mystical powers. It isn't crafted to be an item of legacy, it becomes one.

[Radar]

Even if you are able to dodge the moon, you have to deal with living on a mostly lifeless planet, since such an impact would ruin everyone's life quite significantly. An impact of a Mars-like (in terms of mass) object into Earth resulted in creation of our Moon, so you can expect a world-wide cataclysm of apocalyptic proportions. If only you had a Ring of Sustenance.
Yes, there's nothing in the rules about such an occurance, but it's way beyond the scope of D&D anyway.

(...) If you'd like to instead discuss your favorite fantasy novels, I'd love to have the conversation there, but it's not the same one. In fact, I'd prefer that conversation, since I'm running low on books in my reading list. (...)

I don't know, what have you or haven't read, but "The Wizards of Odd" antology is great in itself and a good place to look for good authors. I recantly read a few books by Trudi Canavan and they're good. It's nothing too original though.
"The High Crusade" by Anderson Poul is inteligent and funny.
Theese guys, if you venture into SF. Lem as well, if you can get his books, but his later works are really heavy.
I can give a rundown of books form specific generes, if you want.

[Calimehter]

You don't need to have Heroes of Battle to arrive at exactly the same game effect. Check Dungeon Master's Guide II (page 49) for their collapsing ceiling trap; it's a DC 15 Reflex save to leap clear and take no damage (regardless of how big the ceiling is). DC 15 Reflex is I think the most common saving throw for "traps" (whether intentionally set, or actually just random falling stuff) in D&D. That's also the standard save for cave-ins and collapses in the DMG.

Interesting - I hadn't spotted that one before.

So between HoB and the DMG, is the mass-driver method of killing things (reliably, at least) via shrunken items and other wizardly shennanigans now discredited?

[Curmudgeon]

So between HoB and the DMG, is the mass-driver method of killing things (reliably, at least) via shrunken items and other wizardly shennanigans now discredited?

It never had any credit with me. This is just another example of too much enthusiasm for an exploit and not enough effort in checking for those annoying rules which explain why the scheme isn't actually so über. If someone can't point to a rule which states that some scheme is going to automatically deal damage^*, I start looking for the rules which explain why it doesn't ─ and it usually doesn't take much digging to discover those rules.

^* I mean real, unambiguous statements like this one, for coup de grace:

You automatically hit and score a critical hit.