How bureaucratically can YOU make hell?

[Calanon]

I know how the nine hells functions. Lawful to the extreme, were souls are treated like dollar bills, but how extreme is this? How long are the lines in hell? Like, If i wanted to say for example plead to an official about the innocents of my soul, how long do you think I'd need to wait in line? How much paper work would I have to fill out? how ridiculous would the questions on said paper work be?

To summarize, How annoyingly bureaucratic can you make hell?

[king.com]

I employ the Adeptus Administratum to govern hell. Human life is the least value resource in the universe so they dont have anything new to worry about, actually its probably easier. To apply it to your questions:

Recognition of a problem within a planet can (through the proper channels) take atleast 100 years for an appropriate response to be called out (assuming zero wait time on the response) unless someone who can cut red tape comes in. Thats usually 4 groups involved from the planet in question, those receiving the response, Holy Terra and of course the group being called in to solve the problem. Given a soul pleading for its life would require everyone in the entire agency to be alert and notified of the change AND for the actual hearings to take place and virtually an endlessly long queue of people. Entering an exiting the process would take atleast (if I do the math right) 2 billions years. For me to explain the math I would be required to contact 3 different representitives to get you clearance Im afraid.

[Ninjadeadbeard]

To summarize, How annoyingly bureaucratic can you make hell?

Read Faust Eric. Souls are tortured via: endless treadmills, a demon whose job it is to read a multi-thousand page safety guide prior to everything, and I believe the damned watch daytime television.

Add in lines that wrap around the infinite plane of Hell (twice), forms of such length that they put War and Peace to shame, and the chained pens at the filing office don't have enough reach to comfortably write anything legibly (low on ink too), and I think Bureaucratic Hell will be up to snuff.

[Kallisti]

To gain entry to Queue 17654 (Pleas of Innocence or Wrongful Damnation, Affairs of Judgement Department), please fill out form 118435-C (Proof of Absolution), noting that form 118435-C (Proof of Absolution) requires the signature of a qualified religious authority of your assigned denomination.

To acquire the signature of a qualified religious authority of your assigned denomination, you will likely need a Leave of Temporary Absence from Eternal Torment. To obtain your Leave of Temporary Absence from Eternal Torment, please pass through Queue 34534 (Emigration, Temporary Leave, Reincarnation, and Lethe Affairs), ready to present valid identification as well as Voucher 9745 (Verification of Sufficient Innocence for Leave). Voucher 9745 may be filled out in Queue 17654 (Pleas of Innocence or Wrongful Damnation, Affairs of Judgement Department).

All clerks, please note that Chit 11823 (Autocannibalism) is filed with the Department of Victimless Crimes.

All clerks, please note that Chit 123324 (Parricide) requires the signature of sinner's next of kin.

All damned souls, please note that sinners holding Chit 32458 (Gluttony) are now reassigned to the Department of Waste Management.

End of announcements. Thank you, and have a pleasant damnation.

[Tavar]

Have you ever read the Screwtape Letters by C. S. Lewis? Because it's a great example.

[Tvtyrant]

Let's look at an average souls day in hell, shall we?

7:00 AM-Awake from sleep on your pallet.
7:01 AM-Begin filling out the form that acknowledges the right of another soul to make your bed in your absence, in return for which the straps which hold your arms to the bed will be removed.
7:10 AM-Begin filling out forms to remove neck and leg straps, in return for which you agree to work 400 hours in the mines.
7:30 AM-You have removed yourself from the bed by 7:31, the time at which you stipulated that would be out of the bed when you signed for it the other day. This brings a sigh of relief from your lips, as not fulfilling the contract would waver your right to water for the next 3 months. You can't die from it, but you can feel very, very parched.
8:00 AM- You begin to fill out the paper work for using a latrine. The paper work is designed so that you have to sign it throughout the 300 page book, but there are no visible signs of where to sign it except context clues in the writing of the contract.
9:00 AM-You use the restroom
10:00 AM-You finish the paperwork to leave the rest room.
11:00 AM-You file the paperwork to be given a one day work visa. If you don't work, they neither feed nor water you.
12:00 PM-Work starts.
12:00 AM-You file the paper work to be relieved from work, and are given a cup of water and a crust of bread in return.
1:00 AM-You file paperwork for a bed, which you eventually get due to your punctuality and work ethic.
5:00 AM-You fall asleep after filing the forms that allow a human soul to sleep, the form for getting rid of bedbugs, and a request for a blanket.
7:00 AM-Awake from sleep on your pallet.

[Vknight]

Here. Its hell I'll say that but Bureaucratic I leave that to you

The Entrance to Hell

Spoiler

Show

A single line each soul is taken in one at a time and once your the 1,000,000th Soul you are given the beginning of your paper work.
There is a single Devil which judges a souls locations and sins.
He has a Devil to file the paperwork and one to keep the line organized and one to guard the entrance into his office and the entrance to hell.
Along the line to Hell are abyssal snakes which venom never leaves the soul leaving one in eternal pain. So stepping off the line is a no go

If you skip the line or try to butt ahead then you are thrown to the back and are not given the Soul Crust and Soul Water everyone else is given for the next 2months.
Please note a Single Devil is sent out once a week to deliver water so theoretically it could be centuries for you.

If you don't move forward when the line moves forward your feet have nails driven into them to remind you next time as your sent to the back of the line.

If you argue with any of the Devil's working the line you end up at the end of the line with pins covering your body. these pins are dipped in Hellfire.
And can only be removed one at a time, once a week.

If you fail to begin working on your papers when given to you; your hands are covered in paper cuts that will close in 1,000years.
If you use the wrong pen of the seven given to you on a line your throat blisters and breathing feels like sucking hot coals
If you have completed sections before you should then your sent to the back of the line and whipped by a whip made of salt
If you lose a paper one of your toes is cut off to painfully regrow
If you drop a pen or sheet of paper your arms are wrapped in hot irons.

If you are late for your scheduled meeting, such as being sent to the back of the line you do not get to file your papers until you make it to the front of the line a second time.
Each paper must be filled out in the correct order, one page at a time.

Signatures must be placed on the bottom right of every page; except ones with are prime numbers in that case the signature must be placed on the top left.
You must also use your initials to mark your understanding of the soul binding contractions of hell. These locations are marked with the fact the pens eat your blood to fuel the ink
If you pass out from blood loss you are sent to the back of the line and given a leech attached to your belly.

All forms must be filled out 1page at a time. And you cannot fill out another page until you move forward in the line.
There are 500,001Pages. Double Sided...

You must also stitch and bind the document, then sign it for easy retrieval by the Devils
If you use 10or more stitches the book is burned and you must start again
The book needs at least 9...
The Devils once every 100years pass out pieces of candy. You must sign Form #47,079, to get a piece. you cannot get this form until you have served 10,000,000years beyond hells entrance.
Those unable to meet the requirements for the form must fill out #47,078 at which point they will not be penalized for having failed to report they do not deserve candy.
Those that don't are given flesh eating beetles as presents.
One can only be given access to Forms #10,000 and up once they are within the 1,000th area of the line.

You may not tap your foot, hum, or look lustfully at another individual in the line. To do so means you must fill Form #10,001
And after 25devils from the line guard(who only get off work once a year), and one Pit Devil signs the form may you continue.
No forms may pass in front of a Pit Devil unless the sinner has committed a great enough crime, or are that deranged.

A council of 50:Devils meets once a month to discuss 1d3Souls waiting after completing the line.
After confirming your sin is in fact compatible with Hells regulations and you do deserve punishment you are sent to your eternal damnation.

If not you are kept in the holding chamber. A boiling hot metal box. Which is to small to move in properly were you must right a full essay as to why you should be chosen. The Essay must include your signature, the type of sins you committed your personal favorite and this must all be done in Haiku.

All forms must be filled out in Undercommon(Deep Speech), Abyssal(Infernal), or Supernal

[Shadowknight12]

Every soul that gets into Hell is told that The Powers That Be forced them to give everyone a chance to "redeem themselves" and "earn their freedom/second chance/heavenly afterlife." However, to do so, they must prove that they are indeed worth it.

So they are sent to an office with a sage that helps them put their case together. But oh no. Oh no, this will not do. No, they need a lot of work to get this show on the road. No court will approve a petition with so many holes! So the soul gets sent to procure validations, signatures, seals, certifications and the like. The problem is, the person who does certifications needs a validation from another person. And that person swears up and down that their validation is incompatible with the certification required, so they have to go back to the other guy and explain that it's all a big mistake.

Sometimes bribery is required. But you have no money in Hell. You need to bribe the people there with things they want. And that means going out of your way (and wasting time) getting it for them. Doing "personal favours" for the people in power is as common as breathing.

This happens every step of the way. Also, paperwork gets lost. Hell is very unsafe, lots of fire and other hazards. And paper is so fragile. Souls get given wrong directions, erroneous instructions, and even get told things that are actively harming their progress. Now multiply all of this for the millions of souls stuck in the same endless quest that never ends, tons of which get in each other's way and form queues that go on and on and on.

Oh, and it was all a lie. Nobody gets out of hell without help.



Also, this is all from personal experience. I live in a country where this is our daily life. Well, minus the bits about hell and the afterlife. I am just pulling all the paperwork madness from things I've had to endure myself.

[kieza]

Keep in mind, the people processing the forms should also be punished. They should not only hate doing their jobs, they should be totally unqualified for them.

[nedz]

You make them all bankers: souls after all are just currency.

As new souls enter hell, they are placed in vaults. There they stay until such time as a Devil withdraws them from the bank. Eventually, after being used in countless trades, they may get exchanged into a Lemure: but only if the deal was particularly profitable.

Higher devils are actually just a manifestation of a complex derivative, which is why their reasoning is so unfathomable to humans.

[Ethdred]

I know how the nine hells functions. Lawful to the extreme, were souls are treated like dollar bills, but how extreme is this? How long are the lines in hell? Like, If i wanted to say for example plead to an official about the innocents of my soul, how long do you think I'd need to wait in line? How much paper work would I have to fill out? how ridiculous would the questions on said paper work be?

To summarize, How annoyingly bureaucratic can you make hell?

Well first of all, you'd be sent to the back of the line for not knowing how to spell 'innocence' :)

[Eldan]

I don't make hell bureaucratically. I make it creatively. However, I make it bureaucratic. Did you know that Hell has a department for annoyingly correcting grammar mistakes?

Keep in mind, the people processing the forms should also be punished. They should not only hate doing their jobs, they should be totally unqualified for them.

"Sir, please, calm down, I'm only doing my job. I don't want to stick this trident into your kidneys anymore than you do, but someone has to do this. Sir, please, Sir, there is no reason to shout. Sir, I will have to call security."

Also, this is all from personal experience. I live in a country where this is our daily life. Well, minus the bits about hell and the afterlife. I am just pulling all the paperwork madness from things I've had to endure myself.

Gotcha. Hell is a stereotype of Soviet Russia, but without the alcohol.

[Slipperychicken]

Devils are the smartest bastards around. Their contracts are pre-made and airtight. They arrive precisely on time, every time. They outsmart genius supervillains like it's their job. Actually, that IS their job. They process countless souls every day. They have magic/supernatural powers to help them. Oftentimes, people don't even need to sign the physical contract with their hands. They can (in some fiction) halt time itself to complete paperwork. They can read human minds and desires like a book. They've had all time to work out every possible kink in the system. When you sign that dotted line, you don't wait one second for it to clear management: You get your wish now.


Hell has the quickest, smoothest, most cruelly-efficient bureaucracy ever.

[Eldan]

Hmm. Probably true.

I think we need to differentiate between the punishment bureaucracy and the soul attraction bureaucracy. The second one has to be smooth. As is the war administration.

But if they want to make life difficult for people? That's entirely different.

[Slipperychicken]

Hmm. Probably true.

I think we need to differentiate between the punishment bureaucracy and the soul attraction bureaucracy. The second one has to be smooth. As is the war administration.

But if they want to make life difficult for people? That's entirely different.

What you guys are describing is Purgatory.

After an unknowable time of mindlessly signing papers and waiting, you forget what you're even waiting for. Later on, you forget that you even died. Then you forget everything you did in life, step by step, event by gruelling event. Then you forget everything you knew, one by one, lover by lover. Then you forget that you were alive. Then, finally, in that final non-act, you forget who you are and were, and join the Petitioners; a soul broken, melted, evaporated, condensed, solidified again, and crushed to the finest dust. If you can even call it a soul at that point.

Your whole existence is the line, the papers, the ink, the infinite waiting. That's your life, your death, your rebirth, the whole cycle. That's everything. As you fail to realize that you are now but a cog in the bureaucracy, a sunken, blank-eyed, red-skinned, horned, gray-suited man slowly approaches to hand you the last step of the line: Join the Devils as fodder for the Blood War. With glazed, sunken eyes and no fragment of your former self left to fight back, you sign the paper. Just another certificate.

That's how they get souls.

[Eldan]

No, that's not really purgatory. Theologically, purgatory is for those who are almost, but not quite good enough to get to Heaven. What you describe is a brutal, almost endless punishment. That's Hell.

[Shadowknight12]

No, that's not really purgatory. Theologically, purgatory is for those who are almost, but not quite good enough to get to Heaven. What you describe is a brutal, almost endless punishment. That's Hell.

That's correct. The word purgatory comes from the same root as "to purge." Theologically speaking, a purgatory is meant to purge sin from the soul, to render it pure. A purgatory is not a bad thing, it's a cleansing process.

EDIT: Not sure if this is a violation of the forum rules, but just in case, I want to clarify that I am not speaking about religion. I'm speaking about etymology and the meaning of a word.

[Slipperychicken]

No, that's not really purgatory. Theologically, purgatory is for those who are almost, but not quite good enough to get to Heaven. What you describe is a brutal, almost endless punishment. That's Hell.

Ehh, I tried. Since people can go nuts from a few days in a dark hole, I figured that waiting for eternity would suck majorly, and without stimulation, your mind/soul would just sort of rot to nothingness and you'd lose your identity (the only thing you really keep in death).


EDIT: What if it was "purging" souls of their sin, and their personality was just collateral damage? Then you could stick the "blank" souls into newborns to try again, and feed a cycle of rebirth.

[Eldan]

Of course, yes. What I'm saying is that what you describe would not be purgatory, it would be hell. I guess there would be a misundersstanding here.

[Shadowknight12]

EDIT: What if it was "purging" souls of their sin, and their personality was just collateral damage? Then you could stick the "blank" souls into newborns to try again, and feed a cycle of rebirth.

It depends on what kind of afterlife you want for your setting. Traditionally, the purgatory is much like a decontamination shower before a sterile room. It's meant to ensure that whatever enters the sterile area is also sterile, free of any contaminants that may taint the sterility of the location.

It could just as well be the decontamination that surgical materials undergo after each surgery, cleaning them so that they may be used anew.

[Mono Vertigo]

I don't think I saw the reference anywhere, so I'd suggest you read some Kafka (especially The Trial).

If you end up in Hell, you won't know why. Nobody can tell you what were your sins. In fact, they don't even seem to know. But that's not going to stop them. Papers will be filled, schedules organized, and you'd better try to respect them. Not that you can perfectly do so anyway, there's always going to be a form you didn't fill out properly, a procedure you didn't respect to the letter, no matter how zealous you are. You don't know anyone else with such a problem, you honestly start thinking you are such an exceptionally hopeless idiot Hell itself doesn't know how to deal with you. You are going to lose all your dignity, one bureaucratic incident at a time. And at the end, you'll simply suspect you were punished simply for existing, with no possible way to make up for it, and that it's the greatest sin of all.
Wait, did I say "if you end up in Hell"? No, I meant "when you end up in Hell". You are fated to finish your journey there, and for all your crushing loneliness, there are going to be many, many more like you. For all you know, all sentient beings in the world share your fate. Hell will always win. Win what? You'll never know for sure.

Long story short, bureaucracy isn't soul-crushing only because of its absurd logic and complexity. Infernal bureaucracy* is designed to make you (feel) worth less than human, hardly more than a single number that could easily be erased and replaced by another, virtually identical one.


*That's a pleonasm.

[hamishspence]

Anne Rice basically merged Purgatory & Hell (in the sense that it's hellish, but it's supposed to redeem the inhabitants over time so they can get into heaven) in her vampire novel Memnoch The Devil- that might be an interesting idea.

[Pokonic]

Gotcha. Hell is a stereotype of Soviet Russia, but without the alcohol.

Not true. There is alcohol in hell, but it turns into a gas and combusts as soon as you pull the tab off.

[hamishspence]

That said in some settings the Upper Planes can also be very bureaucratic. Like Kara-Tur, where the whole pantheon is "the Celesial Bureaucracy".

[Kane0]

I guess you can take a look at mechanus if you want inspiration?

@V Correct. The primary Palace of the Celestial Bureaucracy is located on Mechanus.

[Eldan]

That said in some settings the Upper Planes can also be very bureaucratic. Like Kara-Tur, where the whole pantheon is "the Celesial Bureaucracy".

That was, IIRC, moved to the Outlands or Mechanus in Planescape.

[Amidus Drexel]

IIRC, there was a text-adventure game called Bureaucracy that has a similar principle to how Hell works (being insanely complicated and not telling you how to do anything). You could always play that for a bit; it would get you in the right mindset to eternally torment souls.

Originally posted by Elden
"Sir, please, calm down, I'm only doing my job. I don't want to stick this trident into your kidneys anymore than you do, but someone has to do this. Sir, please, Sir, there is no reason to shout. Sir, I will have to call security."

can i sig this? funny as hell

[Calanon]

I don't think I saw the reference anywhere, so I'd suggest you read some Kafka (especially The Trial).

If you end up in Hell, you won't know why. Nobody can tell you what were your sins. In fact, they don't even seem to know. But that's not going to stop them. Papers will be filled, schedules organized, and you'd better try to respect them. Not that you can perfectly do so anyway, there's always going to be a form you didn't fill out properly, a procedure you didn't respect to the letter, no matter how zealous you are. You don't know anyone else with such a problem, you honestly start thinking you are such an exceptionally hopeless idiot Hell itself doesn't know how to deal with you. You are going to lose all your dignity, one bureaucratic incident at a time. And at the end, you'll simply suspect you were punished simply for existing, with no possible way to make up for it, and that it's the greatest sin of all.
Wait, did I say "if you end up in Hell"? No, I meant "when you end up in Hell". You are fated to finish your journey there, and for all your crushing loneliness, there are going to be many, many more like you. For all you know, all sentient beings in the world share your fate. Hell will always win. Win what? You'll never know for sure.

Long story short, bureaucracy isn't soul-crushing only because of its absurd logic and complexity. Infernal bureaucracy* is designed to make you (feel) worth less than human, hardly more than a single number that could easily be erased and replaced by another, virtually identical one.

...Wow your comment legitimately made me want to kill myself for a minute there at how dark it is I offer you all my cookies, all my internets, and this shiny medal ... I hope you have a wonderful day and continue to offer such amazing guidance on this fine playground... Now if you'll excuse me, I'll just go think about my life...

[Shadowknight12]

...Wow your comment legitimately made me want to kill myself for a minute there at how dark it is I offer you all my cookies, all my internets, and this shiny medal ... I hope you have a wonderful day and continue to offer such amazing guidance on this fine playground... Now if you'll excuse me, I'll just go think about my life...

What? That's not depressing or dark. Sure, the afterlife sucks, but at least you lived a life, so at least PART of your existence was not awful.

No, it would be truly dark or depressing if you got that fate after living a life that ensured you never knew love, joy, warmth or anything that could make the hellish afterlife remotely bearable.

[Rorrik]

Keep in mind, the people processing the forms should also be punished. They should not only hate doing their jobs, they should be totally unqualified for them.

I don't know about hating their jobs, but unqualified might be hard seeing the enormous number of people who have worked to old age at DMV's and other government offices around the world who would be present. You'd have to give them jobs not furthering the bureaucracy, unless you let them advance to the highest ranks of hell. In turn this should be a punishment, they should be constantly barraged with complaints and such.

After loathing bureaucracy so, I can't believe how blank my mind is as to how to create one as excruciating as hell deserves. Badly timed traffic lights on the foot traffic so they have to stop every corner in the vast tunnel networks.