Star Power VI: Shooting Stars (VORP VORP VORP)

[Celestia]

Yes, and yet fish are much more similar to monkeys than to octopuses.

Your point?

[guttering flame]

Your point?

Adaptation to a specific niche has limits. Some traits are hard to change without creating fatal flaws in the process. Even if a totally new body plan is better suited to a species' needs, gradually changing from the current form to that one means no body plan at all in the intervening generations which is impossible. That's why the classification of species in family trees works. Species with common past retain common features despite occupying divergent ecological niches. Adaptation is a thing, sure, but it's not an unlimited power.

An intelligent life form from originating in octopus-like alien lifeform won't change into human-like physique. We even have an example from the comic. Remember the intelligent plant from the beginning of the comic? If that lifeform achieved intelligence obviously non-quadruped species can achieve intelligence in Starpower universe.

[Honest Tiefling]

I actually thought we got rid of tails because they got in the way of the bipedalism. Which is great for tool using arms, but means we are super clumsy and slow. Humans are essentially the Jason of predators. We can't run after you, but we'll pop up again when you've taken a rest. We got lucky in being able to defend ourselves in our awkward period, but I imagine a lot of creatures would still have to put up with defense.

Bipedalism didn't occur thanks to tool use, it allowed it. You can't naturally select for a feature before it becomes useful. We probably evolved upright to deal with heat and to be active at strange times of the day then found out that throwing rocks was AWESOME. How would other creatures even evolve that without that pressure?

Even if you limit yourself to tool-using limbs, you can use insectoid, cephlopod or other bases.

[Celestia]

Adaptation to a specific niche has limits. Some traits are hard to change without creating fatal flaws in the process. Even if a totally new body plan is better suited to a species' needs, gradually changing from the current form to that one means no body plan at all in the intervening generations which is impossible. That's why the classification of species in family trees works. Species with common past retain common features despite occupying divergent ecological niches. Adaptation is a thing, sure, but it's not an unlimited power.

An intelligent life form from originating in octopus-like alien lifeform won't change into human-like physique. We even have an example from the comic. Remember the intelligent plant from the beginning of the comic? If that lifeform achieved intelligence obviously non-quadruped species can achieve intelligence in Starpower universe.

An intelligent species is one thing, but a civilized species is something else entirely. Even if octopuses were just as smart as us, they'd still never build a society like we have. Everything emerges from environmental need. We built clothing and homes to protect us from weather. We built weapons to help us hunt with bodies not developed for such. We created language to aid in pack communication. Octopuses don't have any of these needs. Even if they were smart enough to invent technology, they still never would. Octopuses will never be a spacefaring species.

[halfeye]

I actually thought we got rid of tails because they got in the way of the bipedalism. Which is great for tool using arms, but means we are super clumsy and slow. Humans are essentially the Jason of predators. We can't run after you, but we'll pop up again when you've taken a rest. We got lucky in being able to defend ourselves in our awkward period, but I imagine a lot of creatures would still have to put up with defense.

Bipedalism didn't occur thanks to tool use, it allowed it. You can't naturally select for a feature before it becomes useful. We probably evolved upright to deal with heat and to be active at strange times of the day then found out that throwing rocks was AWESOME. How would other creatures even evolve that without that pressure?

Even if you limit yourself to tool-using limbs, you can use insectoid, cephlopod or other bases.

We can (when younger than I am) run after things, it's the main way we hunt, we don't catch things until they tire out, but they eventually do that, we and wolves are persistence hunters, we run things down.

Throwing things is probably what made us bipedal, we are very good at it, chimpanzees aren't half as good.

An intelligent species is one thing, but a civilized species is something else entirely. Even if octopuses were just as smart as us, they'd still never build a society like we have. Everything emerges from environmental need. We built clothing and homes to protect us from weather. We built weapons to help us hunt with bodies not developed for such. We created language to aid in pack communication. Octopuses don't have any of these needs. Even if they were smart enough to invent technology, they still never would. Octopuses will never be a spacefaring species.

Octopuses won't be an independently spacefaring species from this planet, because we're here. If we weren't here, there are other species more likely to. Baboons have a fairly humanoid body, because they are primates. Octopii are very short lived, if any cephalopod was going to become intelligent tool users it would probably be the big squid. We don't know much at all about the colossal squid. Of the arthropods, the most likely to become something better are the coconut crabs, they are at a very early stage so far, but they have a lung, which is much better than what insects or spiders have.

[Traab]

Assuming sentient species would evolve like us also involves assuming that every world is like ours. Its entirely possible that sentient life would evolve very differently on a planet that is say, high gravity compared to ours. Or is volcanic in nature, or has very little land. There is no telling how life would adapt and grow from its most basic components into thinking beings under these differing environmental influences.

[Gez]

The big things that allowed humankind to develop civilization:

1. Language. Essential to give form to abstract ideas, and develop non-verbal support for them, which helps tremendously in spreading them and learning ever-more complex concepts. You don't need to write to be a civilization, but you do need it to be a space-faring one.
2. Tool-use. Articulating objects in one's hands is as important as articulating words in one's mouth as far as developing capacity for complex, abstract intelligence goes. Relying purely on one's limbs would have stopped short a lot of essential advances in human civilization.
3. Terrestrial. The domestication of fire and the conservation of food were essential steps for human civilization, even the most "primitive" tribes have them. Can't do that under water.

For these reasons, a human-like alien civilization would also have broadly similar traits -- a social model encouraging development of language for communication, a relatively frail and weak (but enduring) body that requires augmentation for improved survival, and not being an aquatic species.

The corollary is that a civilized alien species without any of these traits would be extremely different from human civilization, and kind of a challenge for a human writer to invent in a hard-science way.

[Traab]

The big things that allowed humankind to develop civilization:

1. Language. Essential to give form to abstract ideas, and develop non-verbal support for them, which helps tremendously in spreading them and learning ever-more complex concepts. You don't need to write to be a civilization, but you do need it to be a space-faring one.
2. Tool-use. Articulating objects in one's hands is as important as articulating words in one's mouth as far as developing capacity for complex, abstract intelligence goes. Relying purely on one's limbs would have stopped short a lot of essential advances in human civilization.
3. Terrestrial. The domestication of fire and the conservation of food were essential steps for human civilization, even the most "primitive" tribes have them. Can't do that under water.

For these reasons, a human-like alien civilization would also have broadly similar traits -- a social model encouraging development of language for communication, a relatively frail and weak (but enduring) body that requires augmentation for improved survival, and not being an aquatic species.

The corollary is that a civilized alien species without any of these traits would be extremely different from human civilization, and kind of a challenge for a human writer to invent in a hard-science way.

I liked that one star trek tng episode where they found a silicon based life form that was being killed by a mining operation and they basically speed evolved because (something something crystalline) until they could take over the ship computer. Kept calling them "Ugly, ugly, ugly bags of mostly water!"

1) You dont have to be a land walking earthling with differing skin color to have this. We already have aquatic life with a surprisingly diverse language of chirps clicks squeaks and so on. No reason it couldnt develop further on an aquatic world.

2) Same for tools. Nothing stopping tools from being developed and used on an underwater/volcanic/high grav world. They may work differently in order to deal with physics for their setting, but it could happen. Hell we HAVE tools meant to be used underwater. Imagine what we would create as an aquatic species?

3) Geothermal vents for heat/cooking/etc. Not sure why you couldnt also store food that you got underwater for long term, or come up with a way to do so as needed.

[Gez]

1) You dont have to be a land walking earthling with differing skin color to have this. We already have aquatic life with a surprisingly diverse language of chirps clicks squeaks and so on. No reason it couldnt develop further on an aquatic world.

Language is good but you also need marks to develop writing. It's actually quite possible that the very earliest forms of written communication were derived from tracking animals and looking at their footprints.

2) Same for tools. Nothing stopping tools from being developed and used on an underwater/volcanic/high grav world. They may work differently in order to deal with physics for their setting, but it could happen. Hell we HAVE tools meant to be used underwater. Imagine what we would create as an aquatic species?

And these tools are not built underwater. It's like we make spacesuits, but we don't make them in space.

3) Geothermal vents for heat/cooking/etc. Not sure why you couldnt also store food that you got underwater for long term, or come up with a way to do so as needed.

Water conducts heat much more than air does. You make an underwater forge, you cook yourself. Simple experience: make a cake, and preheat your oven to 180°C. Once it's reached this temperature, the air inside the oven is at 180°C too. Put your cake in -- you don't need mittens. Your hands are perfectly fine going briefly in 180°C air. On the other hand, water heated at 60°C is sufficient to get burns. Works the other way around, too, with freezing temperatures much easier to handle dry than wet.

Dryness is also important when you want to slow down decay. Dried food conserves longer than wet food. Lots of organic processes are slowed down or stopped without water, and that includes all the bacteria and other microorganisms.

Another challenge of aquatic life is pressure. Water pressure is much more dramatic than air pressure. To simplify, 10 meters of water cause as much pressure as 8.5km of uniformly dense air. (Air isn't uniformly dense, though, but we're simplifying.) Traveling up and down in water is dangerous because of this. Each species has a layer in which they're comfortable, below they get crushed, and above they get the bends.

Finally aquatic creatures do not see the stars because water absorbs light. And if you don't see the stars, how can you dream of visiting them?

[guttering flame]

You can preserve food in water very easily: push it into deep water (I assume it's a sea creature, not a river/lake creature). Lack of oxygen vastly slows down rotting and even without protection chances of vermin are much lower.

Tool use is harder for sure but not impossible. Ingenuity knows no bounds.

[Onyavar]

I love you guys.

3) The humanoid body shape is very basic and is fundamental to developing civilization. You can't build cities and machines without bipedalism.

I assume this was meant as a brief aside, but I wanted to respond immediately with an elaborated nitpicking essay on what is required for a civilized sentient - and how to substitute the "essentials" with other body designs. And discuss why SF is still overrun with humanoids.

Then I remembered I had to work and saved writing my response for later... And look, it has been discussed already. :)

Hm, regarding the cephalopod spacefarers, have you read Manifold by Stephen Baxter? The cephalopods in the Time novel got a lift into space by humans, and were bred for intelligence. Once there, they adapted to a space lifestyle a lot better than us apes.
One of our main problems in space is our clumsiness in 3D navigation and our gravity-dependent muscles. Yeah, we can outrun our prey, planetside, but what good does that do us in space?

[Kato]

Well, I guess even not-so-good comics can sometimes lead to intriguing discussions...

Also: I'll never get the attraction of suits. I hate wearing one and despite other people's claims I don't see it on me either. That said, I also don't see that much appeal in dresses, so maybe I'm just not a "formal clothes" guy?

Btw, I guess Danica blushing is kind of cute.

[Honest Tiefling]

Also: I'll never get the attraction of suits.

A good well-tailored suit can be like a good fitting set of lingerie. Bear with me. People sometimes feel more confident in certain clothes, which can add to the appeal. If the suit is well-tailored enough it can show off a person's build as well.

As for dresses, usually the same principle, but am I the only one thinking that the professor picked a horrible color? Yeesh. Danica is better, but it's not really showing off her skin tone much.

[ZeroiaSD]

Two random questions:

1) Which is more creepy, cameras in the shower, or collecting water from the shower?

2) What happens if the visitor comes from a commercial flight, probably covered in DNA of ~70 people?

Like... the first is objectively worst, but the second feels creepier....


Also I'm hoping you're picturing lots of handshakes. Probably nothing, most will be trace amounts.

[Traab]

Language is good but you also need marks to develop writing. It's actually quite possible that the very earliest forms of written communication were derived from tracking animals and looking at their footprints.


And these tools are not built underwater. It's like we make spacesuits, but we don't make them in space.


Water conducts heat much more than air does. You make an underwater forge, you cook yourself. Simple experience: make a cake, and preheat your oven to 180°C. Once it's reached this temperature, the air inside the oven is at 180°C too. Put your cake in -- you don't need mittens. Your hands are perfectly fine going briefly in 180°C air. On the other hand, water heated at 60°C is sufficient to get burns. Works the other way around, too, with freezing temperatures much easier to handle dry than wet.

Dryness is also important when you want to slow down decay. Dried food conserves longer than wet food. Lots of organic processes are slowed down or stopped without water, and that includes all the bacteria and other microorganisms.

Another challenge of aquatic life is pressure. Water pressure is much more dramatic than air pressure. To simplify, 10 meters of water cause as much pressure as 8.5km of uniformly dense air. (Air isn't uniformly dense, though, but we're simplifying.) Traveling up and down in water is dangerous because of this. Each species has a layer in which they're comfortable, below they get crushed, and above they get the bends.

Finally aquatic creatures do not see the stars because water absorbs light. And if you don't see the stars, how can you dream of visiting them?

1) Nothing stopping beings from making marks underwater. They just wont use water soluble paint.

2/3) Yeah I get that, im just pointing out that living on dry land isnt the be all end all of developing tech from utilizing heat sources to refrigeration to whatever.

4) As for food, there are still options available. Including the development of plants that grow underwater, of which there are plenty here on earth, let alone on an aquatic planet that had life develop.

5) No, but there is a surface to the water. I could imagine they might want to travel outside of their preferred water depth band and explore both above and below it. Kind of like how we developed flight and underwater travel. Eventually wanting to leave the water entirely. And guess what they might see above them when they eventually surface? Yep, something else to try to reach.

[Gez]

1) Nothing stopping beings from making marks underwater. They just wont use water soluble paint.

Grab a stick and draw things in the dirt. Notice how it stays.

Now dive underwater and do the same thing. Notice how the water becomes murky from you disturbing the soil, and how by the time you can see again, your drawing has disappeared because mud is much more fluid than dirt. That's also why you can't follow footprints on the sea floor.

It's even worse if your species doesn't live on the shores. Then they may not even have a ground in the first place, because of pressure. When you're in the middle of a vast watery void, without any sort of support for anything, how do you make anything permanent? Where do you store your tools?

And if they do live on the shores, then they may as well be functionally terrestrial because they'll most likely have adapted to spend time on the surface. After all, if some fish species can stay on land for extended periods of time (such as lungfish, mudskipper, walking catfish, or eels) it's because it's useful, and I'm not even talking about creatures such as crabs or crocodiles.

[Traab]

Well i guess its a good thing there is more in the sea than dirt to make marks on? Scratch some coral, or a rock. Hell, etch larger fish bones, scrimshaw is a thing. Im not sure why you are so desperate to believe that there is literally no way for sentient life to develop or improve itself other than with strictly surface dwelling earth like planets. There are ways around all your objections on THIS planet, let alone one where life has no choice but to adapt to fit its environment. The only reason shows like star trek or web comics like this one dont do that is its just easier to develop the whole planet of hats thing where everyone is a funny looking human with differing personality types. The closest we got here was the jeramians or whatever the plant people were called. Not that they had any impact past a throwaway line at the start of the comic.

[Gez]

Im not sure why you are so desperate to believe that there is literally no way for sentient life to develop or improve itself other than with strictly surface dwelling earth like planets.

This was not my point.

My point was that an aquatic sapient species would develop in ways that are completely different from ours, and would result in a civilization more alien than what we can easily imagine. Given the massive differences in environments, the path that we followed would be closed to them; just like the path that they would follow was closed to us.

[Vinyadan]

Our smartiness comes also from manipulation of items, and that came up because our ancestors had to grab something (tree branches), which, incidentally, allowed them to grab other things too, and to learn how to take advantage from this fact. The most advantaged ones passed off their genes.
If the octopus, which has the ability of manipulation, and can learn how to better it, weren't a solitary animal, it probably would be able to evolve into human intelligence. Other smart, social sea animals, like killer whales, don't have manipulation.

[Traab]

I wonder, aside from octopus style creatures, has there ever been a fossil record or any other of aquatic species that showed development of limbs potentially useful for object manipulation? I mean, ive watched frogs actually grab and shove things into their mouths with their hands when I had some aquatic frogs in my fish tank. (They still breathed air, but didnt require solid ground above water) I suppose crabs and lobsters might count, though their claws arent THAT dexterous.

[Onyavar]

Aren't there other SF stories about aquatic aliens?
I mean, I mentioned the cephalopods from Manifold, they were colony-forming and had a luminescence-based sign language that allowed them extremely fast and precise communication via skin/eyes (instead of talking with mouth/ears. Sound was considered impractical).

[random11]

Like... the first is objectively worst, but the second feels creepier....


Also I'm hoping you're picturing lots of handshakes. Probably nothing, most will be trace amounts.

I hate flights.
People coughing and sneezing in a tight place with recycled air.
Research shows that the food trays are worse than the toilets, and that's saying something.
10 hours of that is more than enough for me to have shower as the first priority when I get out.

[Welf]

I hate flights.
People coughing and sneezing in a tight place with recycled air.
Research shows that the food trays are worse than the toilets, and that's saying something.
10 hours of that is more than enough for me to have shower as the first priority when I get out.

This information will greatly enhance my next few 11 hour flights

[Honest Tiefling]

Our smartiness comes also from manipulation of items, and that came up because our ancestors had to grab something (tree branches), which, incidentally, allowed them to grab other things too, and to learn how to take advantage from this fact. The most advantaged ones passed off their genes.

A vanishing forest sorta also helped, since there were less and less trees to be in most likely. Through not all arboreal species are intelligent, as squirrels are never going to make the list of intelligent animals.

If the octopus, which has the ability of manipulation, and can learn how to better it, weren't a solitary animal, it probably would be able to evolve into human intelligence. Other smart, social sea animals, like killer whales, don't have manipulation.

Kinda yes, kinda no. Dolphins will use their sonar to detect things, and then use their nose to bop it. They are also known to 'play' with other animals, including using them for a game of catch. I don't really know about Killer Whales, but I think they're too busy terrorizing other species of whales?

The problem with octopuses isn't that they aren't social, as several species can be and they will bond with humans (I guess we are friend-shaped to them?). The problem is that they can't pass on knowledge due to dying after mating in most cases.

[ZeroiaSD]

I hate flights.
People coughing and sneezing in a tight place with recycled air.
Research shows that the food trays are worse than the toilets, and that's saying something.
10 hours of that is more than enough for me to have shower as the first priority when I get out.

Toilets in general are surprisingly clean, or at least toilet seats- smooth plastic, metal, or porceline with no good place for bacteria to hold onto, and butts/thighs don't carry that much.... mythbusters did an episode on where the most bacteria is in a house... anyway, this is a bizarre diversion.

Aren't there other SF stories about aquatic aliens?
I mean, I mentioned the cephalopods from Manifold, they were colony-forming and had a luminescence-based sign language that allowed them extremely fast and precise communication via skin/eyes (instead of talking with mouth/ears. Sound was considered impractical).

Schlock Mercenary have the Schuul. Basically humans moved into their system, they got access to the stars and we got the non-wet parts to live on.

Animorphs had some....

There's a few, but it really isn't much of a focus in many stories.

[guttering flame]

If you're looking for true alien fiction Solaris by Stanislaw Lem is an interesting read.

[Traab]

Poor brightman, she kinda forgot she is basically a plus one here.

[Honest Tiefling]

Poor brightman, she kinda forgot she is basically a plus one here.

After he flirted with her previously? Yeah, that's not going to annoy Star Power in any way. Women love it when you jerk around their friends in completely obvious ways right in front of both parties. How is this man a super villain again?

[PraetorDragoon]

After he flirted with her previously? Yeah, that's not going to annoy Star Power in any way. Women love it when you jerk around their friends in completely obvious ways right in front of both parties. How is this man a super villain again?

PRESENTATION!

[Honest Tiefling]

PRESENTATION!

The man looks like Extrano, and has a tenth of the charm of Doctor Von Doom. Bah! Gimme Music Meister!