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  1. - Top - End - #211
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    Default Re: Predictions for Star Wars Episode 9

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.Samurai View Post
    Everyone does, it's true. But I specifically called it clickbait and I specifically called out that what upsets me is the attempt to shape the narrative. I don't talk to Abrams. Or Johnson. I talk to people online. And they read that **** and eat it right up and regurgitate it right back at me.

    So, everyone is talking about this sexist racist backlash against Star Wars. And if you were to ever call Abrams out for it, he can just say "Well, I never said all people that don't like Star Wars are afraid of women. I just said that guys that don't like women in Star Wars are afraid of women, and I think that's true." Meanwhile, the entire purpose of the article that posed the question and published the answer in the first place is to frame the narrative in this way.

    EDIT: Forgot to mention to look at the title of the article. To my point, it says one thing "Star Wars fans that didn't like Last Jedi are threatened by women characters" and then goes on to actually specify in the article something else (that some group that claimed to tank the RT scores, despite RT claiming that wasn't true, tweeted some complaints about adding more women characters, and this is what Abrams is responding to).
    I have no issue with calling out clickbait bulls*** from puff media. It never seems to stop there, though.

    You called out the people who made the movie as cowering behind diversity and using women and black people as a shield and so on. Metahuman seems to think the most important thing is not to let the creators get away with blaming all criticisms on racism/misogyny, regardless of whether they ever actually did that. Scowling Dragon can't remember the name of the president of Lucasfilm, but he's absolutely sure she said people who don't like TLJ are sexist fanboys. Mightymosy didn't see TLJ as particularly political until a bunch of Youtube commentaries convinced him politics and feminism were responsible for ruining TLJ by trying to force an agenda while 'Disney representatives' made hay of the politics.

    I'm just asking for some citations to back up all these assertions about what the creators of TLJ said and did.
    Last edited by Lethologica; 2018-03-06 at 09:58 PM.

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    Default Re: Predictions for Star Wars Episode 9

    Quote Originally Posted by Lethologica View Post
    I'm just asking for some citations to back up all these assertions about what the creators of TLJ said and did.
    Well there's JJ Abrams here and Daisy Ridley here. This has gotten rather political so I'm not going to leave any commentary but just post the references.
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    Default Re: Predictions for Star Wars Episode 9

    Quote Originally Posted by Lethologica View Post
    I'm just asking for some citations to back up all these assertions about what the creators of TLJ said and did.
    Kennedy
    “I have a responsibility to the company that I work with. I don’t feel that I have a responsibility to cater in some way. I would never just seize on saying, ‘Well, this is a franchise that’s appealed primarily to men for many, many years, and therefore I owe men something.'”
    JJ Abrams
    “‘Star Wars’ is a big galaxy, and you can sort of find almost anything you want to in ‘Star Wars,’…If you are someone who feels threatened by women and needs to lash out against them, you can probably find an enemy in ‘Star Wars.’ You can probably look at the first movie that George [Lucas] did [‘Star Wars: A New Hope’] and say that Leia was too outspoken, or she was too tough. Anyone who wants to find a problem with anything can find the problem. The internet seems to be made for that.”
    And overall they talk up a massive storm about politicicizing the narrative. They are "Talking back" against people who primarily don't exist or only exist as a small minority, and as such ignoring the very reasonable counter arguments against their creative direction.


    This isn't just some stupid film, no its a MOVEMENT its about representation and ****. And I got the ladies last name wrong, I guess that undoes her pretty directly stated political actions.
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    A little condescending
    That pretty much sums up the Scowling Dragon experience.

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    Default Re: Predictions for Star Wars Episode 9

    Quote Originally Posted by Lethologica View Post
    I have no issue with calling out clickbait bulls*** from puff media. It never seems to stop there, though.

    You called out the people who made the movie as cowering behind diversity and using women and black people as a shield and so on. Metahuman seems to think the most important thing is not to let the creators get away with blaming all criticisms on racism/misogyny, regardless of whether they ever actually did that. Scowling Dragon can't remember the name of the president of Lucasfilm, but he's absolutely sure she said people who don't like TLJ are sexist fanboys. Mightymosy didn't see TLJ as particularly political until a bunch of Youtube commentaries convinced him politics and feminism were responsible for ruining TLJ by trying to force an agenda while 'Disney representatives' made hay of the politics.

    I'm just asking for some citations to back up all these assertions about what the creators of TLJ said and did.
    Please wait up! I didn't say TLJ was ruined by forcing an agenda. I say TLJH was sucky because it had, in my eyes, a couple of very bad flaws that impaired my enjoyment of a movie. The diversity of characters I actually enjoyed, and viewed as one of the few positive things about the movie.

    I later found out that appearantly there was some agenda behind the movie direction/production, an agenda I was not aware of.
    And I say that this agenda is poorly done, in the case of feminism. Because if you don't like women leading before watching the movie, chances are high you will find that TLJ "proves" you right, as the women in themovie are pretty poor leaders.

    So it's possible that the movie was bad because the creators care more for an agenda than for a good story, and they also failed to make this agenda right. It's possible.
    But my stance is that the movie was bad because of several other other things, and THEN ALSO there appearantly is a badly executed agenda that makes not much sense either.

    Maybe my language wasn't up to the task. Just wanted to clarify my position.
    Last edited by Mightymosy; 2018-03-07 at 01:24 AM.
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    Default Re: Predictions for Star Wars Episode 9

    So at last count that's three citations of the Abrams quote that I already addressed (four if I count Metahuman talking about it in the other thread); one quote from Kathleen Kennedy that specifically addressed a question about fans who were mad about Jyn Erso being the lead of Rogue One in the wake of the Ghostbusters fiasco; and Daisy Ridley having an admittedly dumb opinion about a trope term in the course of providing a much less dumb opinion about why the term doesn't fit Rey, contra the opinion of critics.

    Seriously? This is your best outrage bait? This is what's supposed to make me believe the creators are out to silence or deflect all criticism by calling it racist or sexist? Because, what, they called the sexists sexist (but not anyone else), and because Ridley called a term sexist in the course of directly addressing the criticism behind the term? Why are y'all getting mad at the creators instead of getting mad at dumb 'mine controversy for clicks' questions from journalists? Jee-zus. I bet you think tabloid journalism sucks, but here you are demonstrating that it works.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mightymosy View Post
    Please wait up! I didn't say TLJ was ruined by forcing an agenda. I say TLJH was sucky because it had, in my eyes, a couple of very bad flaws that impaired my enjoyment of a movie. The diversity of characters I actually enjoyed, and viewed as one of the few positive things about the movie.

    I later found out that appearantly there was some agenda behind the movie direction/production, an agenda I was not aware of.
    And I say that this agenda is poorly done, in the case of feminism. Because if you don't like women leading before watching the movie, chances are high you will find that TLJ "proves" you right, as the women in themovie are pretty poor leaders.

    So it's possible that the movie was bad because the creators care more for an agenda than for a good story, and they also failed to make this agenda right. It's possible.
    But my stance is that the movie was bad because of several other other things, and THEN ALSO there appearantly is a badly executed agenda that makes not much sense either.

    Maybe my language wasn't up to the task. Just wanted to clarify my position.
    Ah, the 'also'. I see. I honestly don't think it has a substantial effect on the placement of your comments in my argument, but thanks for the clarification.
    Last edited by Lethologica; 2018-03-07 at 01:44 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    I feel very similarly to you, with one notable exception: I still think the move was bad just because it was bad. Ain't no feminist agenda other than more representation, which I don't care about in either direction. Yay representation, why not. Boo bad movie.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lethologica View Post
    I feel like the political agenda thing gets blown up way more on both sides of the fan reaction than was in the movie itself.
    Agreed. From what little I've heard of the politics of the filmmakers, I'm frankly on board with them. That doesn't make the movie any better though. The problems with the characters and plot exist regardless of any intentions the filmmakers had or have. Sure, they should ignore anyone who complains about the new main character being a woman, that's obvious. But it's also not the what most people criticize about the film, at least not unless the criticisms I've seen are a vastly smaller proportion of the whole than they appear to be to me.
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    Default Re: Predictions for Star Wars Episode 9

    Quote Originally Posted by Lethologica View Post
    Seriously? This is your best outrage bait? This is what's supposed to make me believe the creators are out to silence or deflect all criticism by calling it racist or sexist? Because, what, they called the sexists sexist (but not anyone else), and because Ridley called a term sexist in the course of directly addressing the criticism behind the term? Why are y'all getting mad at the creators instead of getting mad at dumb 'mine controversy for clicks' questions from journalists? Jee-zus. I bet you think tabloid journalism sucks, but here you are demonstrating that it works.
    People are primarily mad at the creators for making a bad movie and then subsequently taking no action to address any of the issues with the film or the fan response in any way and in fact doubling down by hiring Rian Johnson to direct an additional three Star Wars films. Any and all whiffs of controversy on any wavelength whatsoever merely fan the flames. Beyond that further discussion of this topic is against forum rules.
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    Default Re: Predictions for Star Wars Episode 9

    Quote Originally Posted by Lethologica View Post
    So at last count that's three citations of the Abrams quote that I already addressed (four if I count Metahuman talking about it in the other thread); one quote from Kathleen Kennedy that specifically addressed a question about fans who were mad about Jyn Erso being the lead of Rogue One in the wake of the Ghostbusters fiasco; and Daisy Ridley having an admittedly dumb opinion about a trope term in the course of providing a much less dumb opinion about why the term doesn't fit Rey, contra the opinion of critics.

    Seriously? This is your best outrage bait? This is what's supposed to make me believe the creators are out to silence or deflect all criticism by calling it racist or sexist? Because, what, they called the sexists sexist (but not anyone else), and because Ridley called a term sexist in the course of directly addressing the criticism behind the term? Why are y'all getting mad at the creators instead of getting mad at dumb 'mine controversy for clicks' questions from journalists? Jee-zus. I bet you think tabloid journalism sucks, but here you are demonstrating that it works.


    Ah, the 'also'. I see. I honestly don't think it has a substantial effect on the placement of your comments in my argument, but thanks for the clarification.
    Sorry. What do you want from me?
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    Default Re: Predictions for Star Wars Episode 9

    Quote Originally Posted by Mechalich View Post
    and in fact doubling down by hiring Rian Johnson to direct an additional three Star Wars films
    Anyone who thinks this was meant to slight the fans is seriously overestimating their place in Disney's priorities. Their aim is to make at least a movie per year per franchise (following the Marvel model), on time and under budget. Johnson is good at on time and under budget.
    Last edited by zimmerwald1915; 2018-03-07 at 10:01 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mightymosy View Post
    Sorry. What do you want from me?
    That's an odd way to put it. I don't think your clarification is anything to apologize for. If I want anything from you, I suppose it's sone of the comments or commentaries that informed your impression of the political agenda.

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    Default Re: Predictions for Star Wars Episode 9

    Quote Originally Posted by Mechalich View Post
    People are primarily mad at the creators for making a bad movie and then subsequently taking no action to address any of the issues with the film or the fan response in any way and in fact doubling down by hiring Rian Johnson to direct an additional three Star Wars films. Any and all whiffs of controversy on any wavelength whatsoever merely fan the flames. Beyond that further discussion of this topic is against forum rules.
    The assertion "it's a bad movie" is super vague and always really poorly articulated, usually hanging on clomping nerdism about Star Wars minutiae rather than actual understanding of film though.

    If you want people to believe it's a bad movie (and most people do not, as evidenced by its high Cinemascore rating), you need to do some work.

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    Default Re: Predictions for Star Wars Episode 9

    Everyone wondering why some of us "TLJ-haters" have a thin skin to aggressive "counter-criticism", I refer you to the above post.

    To clarify: NO, not EVERY criticism is ALWAYS badly written. Yes, mine may be. Sorry, I'm no English.
    But I have read many exceptionally well-written negative reviews of TLJ in this forum. So I consider the above statement as counterproductive and frankly insulting. Not everyone who dislikes TLJ suffers from "nerdism"; whatever that may be.
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    Default Re: Predictions for Star Wars Episode 9

    @Lethologica: I don't have links to give you because it's just my opinion. Obviously Abrams and Kennedy have never said that they'll duck from criticism by letting the racist/sexist fanboy meme play out online. But I do think that's what's happening. They do these interviews and get asked about the only criticism that matters, and that's the "I hate diversity" criticism.

    To his credit (or maybe he was told to, I don't know) Rian Johnson has actually fielded questions in articles about particular complaints fans have had (about Luke as an example), so at least he's addressing some of the criticism (although it's not really handled like criticism). But he's also said that he wouldn't change a single thing in the movie and would do it again the same way. So they stand behind the movie they made and the themes they went with, and the only criticism that gets asked about and answered to is the fanboys hate women stuff.

    You can catch me on using the word "only" too if you want. I mean, I don't mean "only", it's a figure of speech.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mightymosy View Post
    Everyone wondering why some of us "TLJ-haters" have a thin skin to aggressive "counter-criticism", I refer you to the above post.

    To clarify: NO, not EVERY criticism is ALWAYS badly written. Yes, mine may be. Sorry, I'm no English.
    But I have read many exceptionally well-written negative reviews of TLJ in this forum. So I consider the above statement as counterproductive and frankly insulting. Not everyone who dislikes TLJ suffers from "nerdism"; whatever that may be.
    Mightymosy, it's not worth getting insulted over. GloatingSwine is just a person on the internet like all the rest of us, and his opinion is obviously not grounded in reality and worth even considering. Anyone that's participated in these threads no that the complaints have been articulated ad nauseum. Just brush that **** off your shoulders .

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lethologica View Post
    That's an odd way to put it. I don't think your clarification is anything to apologize for. If I want anything from you, I suppose it's sone of the comments or commentaries that informed your impression of the political agenda.
    Well, I have read so much and watched so much.....but I think this was first:

    https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood...isten-to-women

    Note the title of the article:
    "Star Wars: The Last Jedi Offers the Harsh Condemnation of Mansplaining We Need in 2017"


    In it, Laura Dern says something about her role, and she days something Rian Johnson had been saying.

    Before that, I simply thought she was a stupid leader figure that made little sense to me.
    After that article, I first thought that well, it's just vanityfair's opinion, right? (although they do quote an actress of the movie who says something the director has said......one can guess whether it was true or not).

    Then I clicked through various other articles that were linked in that article, and in other articles and so forth and so forth.

    I eventually landed at videos from this lady (who calls herself feminist):
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0jY010oKl7c&t=72s
    (there are quite a couple vids by her - wanring: offensive language )

    Once you dive into youtube, there are TONS of videos, although quite a lot are - to be blunt - made by a*sholes who I don't want to be associated with, so it's a bit of work to separate the good from the bad.
    For example, this one shows how Kathleen Keneddy praises Johnson for writing awesome female characters:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhE3Ox9pdLw

    Please note again that I don't despise that mission - I despise the execution.
    I don't think Rian Johnson's characters are awesome. Neither the male nor the female ones, for that matter.

    There is that picture:
    https://www.reddit.com/r/CringeAnarc...hleen_kennedy/
    (if it doesn't work, just google "the force is female")

    I mean, what is that about?

    If that is not about promoting women, then what is it?

    Note again that I WANT more female leads in movies, if only for the selfish reason that I like watching them (*kiss* Rogue One).

    So, I can't be entirely sure what Kathleen Keneddy or Rian Johnson really think about, it seems they do have an agenda to put more women into movies. Which I wholeheartedly agree with.
    What I don't know is how much into "feminist" territory they want to go. "The force is female" can be a slogan "Take SW away from men!", or it can simply mean "Yay, we finally did it an have Jedi as well!". It's hard to tell. I think it rather leans in the latter, personally, but who knows?
    That's why I brought that aspect up many many pages ago when we were talking about the Holdo fiasco.
    The Holdo story (see vanityfair) was the first instance where I really wondered whether there actually was some feminist agenda behind the camera. Because her character just didn't make sense to me - why invent her when you have Leia and Admiral Ackbar at your disposal, both characters many people wanted to see more of?

    And then there is the problem that many people (myself included) have complained about a lot of problems with the movie that have NOTHING to do with feminism. But the movie makers responded in a way that almost completely ignored all the real problems and instead argued about gender stuff, and how people who didn't like the movie were sexist or whatever.

    For example, my two main problems have nothing to do with gender at all.
    1) Why is Rian Johnson treating Luke Skywalker so insanely badly?
    -> Rian Johnson later sorta gave an answerm and I think that answer sucked big time.
    2) The entire Casino trip made not the slightest sense, neither cinematically, nor story-wise, nor by logic
    -> and this is never discussed, to my knowledge


    To sum it up: I still don't know how much feminist agenda influenced the movie being bad. I "know" that the creators wanted more cool women - which I agree with - and put more cool women in TLJ - which I think failed big time.


    PS: Sorry for the mess - it's hard to remember where I got what from, and to find all these youtube movies and articles again.


    To lighten things up:
    For everyone who hasn't seen it yet, the HISHE people have made a movie that happens to be 300%* better than the original, even though it's only crappy cartoon graphics and only 5 minutes. Enjoy
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCB8DUGpYQQ

    (the first couple minutes are mostly comedy, but the second half is epic!)

    *except the Porg scene - that one was actually better in the original movie
    Last edited by Mightymosy; 2018-03-07 at 07:04 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mightymosy View Post
    So, I can't be entirely sure what Kathleen Keneddy or Rian Johnson really think about, it seems they do have an agenda to put more women into movies. Which I wholeheartedly agree with.
    What I don't know is how much into "feminist" territory they want to go. "The force is female" can be a slogan "Take SW away from men!", or it can simply mean "Yay, we finally did it an have Jedi as well!". It's hard to tell. I think it rather leans in the latter, personally, but who knows?
    You know I think people would be more charitable if every other new character wasn't a surly british brunette woman who happens to also have the moral authority. Which is kind of a distinct difference. In the original trilogy Han could be sardonic and was rough around the edges at first but most main characters were, to an extent at least, trusting people who weren't overly violent. As whiny as Anakin was he still wasn't immediately hostile in the way newer characters are. Rey and Jyn meanwhile basically leap to violence first and the story always emphasises that they're very good at it. When you most visible characters have an attitude problem and their films insist they are right to have a bad attitude, people won't be charitable regarding your attitude. Of course for all it matters Kathleen Kennedy could just be really into british people.

    That, and there was never a ban on female jedi. Luke was a girl in early film drafts. Anakin and Luke were both men because of the specific relationship that the OT required them to have. Leia was implied to become a jedi after VI ended and the only reason she isn't is muh iconic character who can't actually develop. There were a large number of female jedi in the prequels. Hell, George added in more because he liked their specific designs and when he was bought out he was making an entire video game because he liked a female design from some comics that much. If you wanted to get technical if you compiled a list of the first half dozen or so force sensitives in the expanded universe, exactly half of them would be female and that ratio never really changed.

    Celebrating there being a female jedi is like celebrating women being allowed to wear tube socks. If you want to celebrate you can, but it was never a thing that was banned to begin with.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mechalich View Post
    and Daisy Ridley here.
    Mutter mutter we really need to make Gary Stu a more will known term.

    So never being wrong, having whatever skills she needs to get out of a situation, and learning force powers she's seen once (and one she's potentially not seen) is must something that moist characters do? Then in the second film she manages to redeem Luke, remove the First Order's only decent leader, shows equal force strength to a character implied in the last film to be stronger than Vader, and so on.

    Then in the next film we see that Rey's flaws are being too stubborn minded and making bad decisions. Well, in the way that some characters are flawed by being too stubborn and then having that stubbornness save the day, at least in my opinion. While at the same time being able to use lightsaber forms without training.

    I actually don't mind the character of Rey, but won't like her until I feel like she makes a mistake that comes back to bore them in the rear (as Finn did, and I believe as Poe did).

    Quote Originally Posted by GloatingSwine View Post
    The assertion "it's a bad movie" is super vague and always really poorly articulated, usually hanging on clomping nerdism about Star Wars minutiae rather than actual understanding of film though.
    It's a bad movie (and sequel) because the plot directly contradicts both itself and it's direct predecessor. The First Order has pulled the resources to dominate the galaxy out of it's arse, but within the film itself they're unable to call their allies, but don't worry our characters can call a friend when they need advice! Some scenes are also stupid, need I reminds you of the space bombers, and there's about a hundred (okay, more like ten) reasons why the chase setup shouldn't have worked, without even going into nerd territory sand just taking the least two films.


    Also Disney, I love that you made a diverse Start Wars movie. Maybe next time you can make one where the gay couple says together, is that alright? I like Asians as much as the next xenophile, but that doesn't mean they're automatically better.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayngfet View Post
    You know I think people would be more charitable if every other new character wasn't a surly british brunette woman who happens to also have the moral authority. Which is kind of a distinct difference. In the original trilogy Han could be sardonic and was rough around the edges at first but most main characters were, to an extent at least, trusting people who weren't overly violent. As whiny as Anakin was he still wasn't immediately hostile in the way newer characters are. Rey and Jyn meanwhile basically leap to violence first and the story always emphasises that they're very good at it. When you most visible characters have an attitude problem and their films insist they are right to have a bad attitude, people won't be charitable regarding your attitude. Of course for all it matters Kathleen Kennedy could just be really into british people.

    That, and there was never a ban on female jedi. Luke was a girl in early film drafts. Anakin and Luke were both men because of the specific relationship that the OT required them to have. Leia was implied to become a jedi after VI ended and the only reason she isn't is muh iconic character who can't actually develop. There were a large number of female jedi in the prequels. Hell, George added in more because he liked their specific designs and when he was bought out he was making an entire video game because he liked a female design from some comics that much. If you wanted to get technical if you compiled a list of the first half dozen or so force sensitives in the expanded universe, exactly half of them would be female and that ratio never really changed.

    Celebrating there being a female jedi is like celebrating women being allowed to wear tube socks. If you want to celebrate you can, but it was never a thing that was banned to begin with.
    Oh come on.
    How many female Jedi do you really see doing something in the prequels?
    I admit that I was wrong in the sense that I didn't remember a single one being shown on screen apart from one in front of the Jedi temple.

    But that doesn't change the fact that no female Jedi had a *role* in the prequel movies.

    I bet that most viewers wouldnt remember there being any female Jedi, just like me.

    How many sentences were said by female Jedi in all of the prequels?
    How many names of female Jedi can we learn from the movies?
    How many lightsabre duels with female Jedi can we watch in the movies.

    Maybe George Lucas liked the design of fem-Jedi, but the prequel movies were a sausage festivity.
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    I feel the whole representation thing is a big bag of nothing. Where I come from people draw inspiration from actions of people, not from the boardroom products of mass consumption entertainment media (And have more women in STEM Fields despite having fewer programs encouraging it and by far more "Limiting" social norms).

    Its just this massive ploy to SELL you stuff. Sell you dependency and your identity.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fralex View Post
    A little condescending
    That pretty much sums up the Scowling Dragon experience.

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    Kathleen Kennedy specifically said that girls can't relate to Luke, and boys can't relate to Leia. I think she's dead wrong, but it's what she believes and it's clear that's informing their decisions.

    Since Poe is the hispanic in the movie, I guess he is representing me. Should I be proud that there is a hispanic in the movie? Should I be offended that the hispanic guy gets all of his war pals killed?

    Or should I just not give a **** because it doesn't actually matter??

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.Samurai View Post
    Kathleen Kennedy specifically said that girls can't relate to Luke, and boys can't relate to Leia. I think she's dead wrong, but it's what she believes and it's clear that's informing their decisions.
    Well damn. My son is a quarter Korean and a quarter Austrian. It's gonna be pretty damn hard to find someone he relates to, apparently.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Well damn. My son is a quarter Korean and a quarter Austrian. It's gonna be pretty damn hard to find someone he relates to, apparently.
    Im Slavic blooded. Where does that put me again then?
    Quote Originally Posted by Fawkes View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Fralex View Post
    A little condescending
    That pretty much sums up the Scowling Dragon experience.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scowling Dragon View Post
    Im Slavic blooded. Where does that put me again then?
    In the "sucks to be you, if you want to relate to someone" category.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    In the "sucks to be you, if you want to relate to someone" category.
    But the people onscreen share my skin color (Therefore my personal values, history, language, culture, background)! Therefore I identify with them!

    The only Slavic people I see onscreen are either mafia thugs or guys with massive chain guns.....Damn that explains my career ambitions I suppose.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fawkes View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Fralex View Post
    A little condescending
    That pretty much sums up the Scowling Dragon experience.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mightymosy View Post
    https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood...isten-to-women
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0jY010oKl7c&t=72s
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhE3Ox9pdLw
    https://www.reddit.com/r/CringeAnarc...hleen_kennedy/

    To sum it up: I still don't know how much feminist agenda influenced the movie being bad. I "know" that the creators wanted more cool women - which I agree with - and put more cool women in TLJ - which I think failed big time.
    Thanks for the links and explanation. Naturally, I fall very much on the "Force is Female" shirt celebrating cool women rather than taking Star Wars away from men. And I'm a little less inclined to say that putting cool women in TLJ failed, so much as that the cool women and cool men were both hamstrung by a poorly-conceived plot. But I do basically agree with your summation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anonymouswizard View Post
    So never being wrong, having whatever skills she needs to get out of a situation, and learning force powers she's seen once (and one she's potentially not seen) is must something that moist characters do? Then in the second film she manages to redeem Luke, remove the First Order's only decent leader, shows equal force strength to a character implied in the last film to be stronger than Vader, and so on.
    In TFA Rey was surprisingly good at a lot of stuff arguably to the point of contrivance/Sue-dom, and in TLJ there's still an issue with how the movie presents Rey's mastery of the Force, but please let's not extrapolate that to the entire character when TLJ goes in a markedly different direction.

    Rey spends at least half of TLJ being wrong, from "Every word in that sentence was wrong" to her conviction that she could redeem Kylo by going to the Supremacy. The one thing I would criticize on that front is that the consequences for her mistakes are downplayed--going to the dark place on Ahch-To didn't result in anything bad happening, for example. It's not like I wanted yet another Jedi amputee, but something more than that nebulous vision would have been nice.

    Also, Rey was not the principal agent of Snoke's death. Kylo was. Rey's only role in that was, as it turned out, an unwitting distraction. If anything, the movie doesn't give Rey enough agency in TLJ--but that's the opposite of a Mary Sue criticism.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.Samurai View Post
    Kathleen Kennedy specifically said that girls can't relate to Luke, and boys can't relate to Leia. I think she's dead wrong, but it's what she believes and it's clear that's informing their decisions.

    Since Poe is the hispanic in the movie, I guess he is representing me. Should I be proud that there is a hispanic in the movie? Should I be offended that the hispanic guy gets all of his war pals killed?

    Or should I just not give a **** because it doesn't actually matter??
    Again, the actual thing she says is very different. In fact, this time it's completely the opposite: Kennedy is talking about how there used to be an assumption about boys identifying with boys and girls identifying with girls (which is, admittedly, probably an overstatement), and how studios are waking up to the fact that little girls and little boys do identify with lots of different characters of different genders/races/etc.

    Fans are literally interpreting Kennedy saying that girls can relate to Luke as saying that girls can't relate to Luke. Then Peelee only hears the secondhand version and now this is his impression of Kathleen Kennedy, regardless of the facts. This is why I'm always asking for citations.
    Last edited by Lethologica; 2018-03-08 at 02:27 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lethologica View Post
    Again, the actual thing she says is very different. In fact, this time it's completely the opposite: Kennedy is talking about how there used to be an assumption about boys identifying with boys and girls identifying with girls, and how studios are waking up to the fact that little girls and little boys do identify with lots of different characters of different genders/races/etc.

    Fans are literally interpreting Kennedy saying that girls can relate to Luke as saying that girls can't relate to Luke. Then Peelee only hears the secondhand version and now this is his impression of Kathleen Kennedy, regardless of the facts. This is why I'm always asking for citations.
    This was a.) great what she really said, and 2.) a very strong case for citations. Thanks!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mightymosy View Post
    Oh come on.
    How many female Jedi do you really see doing something in the prequels?
    I admit that I was wrong in the sense that I didn't remember a single one being shown on screen apart from one in front of the Jedi temple.

    But that doesn't change the fact that no female Jedi had a *role* in the prequel movies.

    I bet that most viewers wouldnt remember there being any female Jedi, just like me.
    Shouldn't a "susage fest" imply that there are way more than three sausages at a time involved? Few Jedi had any lines to begin with; and I think screentime between the "cameo" aparitions between female and male jedis recognizable to fans is comparable. Most Jedi on the background don't have any lines, but a great deal of them were female in most scenes.

    That's not even counting that most Jedi in the Clone Wars (the only canonical source for more Jedi other than the four males* and Yoda) with names and protagonism were female. The majority of sausage-fest was more evident in the other groups (spearatist leaders, senators, generals and soldiers, etc). The Jedi characters were tightly restricted by the OT, so there was little chance for Lucas to include more females without making an even bigger mess out of the movies. Even then, that disregars the importance of TCW series who had a visible majority (IDK if it's an actual majority) of female protagonists. In fact, I would argue TCW is a better representation of the Jedi as a whole, because the prequels showed too little about the Order to begin with. So, while I grant that obviously Rey is the first female protagonist in a movie to ever wield a LS; the assertion that she is the first fem-Jedi character is misleading. In a movie? Maybe. But she isn't neither the first protagonist, nor the first to wield a saber on screen; not the one the fans were craving for. Ashoka is probably more popular among fans than Rey.

    *Qui-gon, Obi-Wan, Anakin and Mace. Those are the only ones that I remember off the top of my head having more than 2 seconds one-liners.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mightymosy View Post
    How many sentences were said by female Jedi in all of the prequels?
    How many names of female Jedi can we learn from the movies?
    How many lightsabre duels with female Jedi can we watch in the movies.
    The problem with questions like the above is that 0/0 is still equality. Forget about OT Jedi and the two who needed to be male because of cast (Neeson and Jackson) See:

    How many sentences were said by Jedi in all of the prequels? Zero
    How many names of Jedi can we learn from the movies? Memorable? Zero
    How many lightsabre duels with Jedi can we watch in the movies. Two, I think

    -The one big battle scene on the arena; which included similar parts of both genders
    -The skirimish with Sidious. That one was a sausage fest, and a clear missed chance to make female jedi appear awesome.
    (sic)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Joeltion View Post
    The problem with questions like the above is that 0/0 is still equality. Forget about OT Jedi and the two who needed to be male because of cast (Neeson and Jackson) See:

    How many sentences were said by Jedi in all of the prequels? Zero
    How many names of Jedi can we learn from the movies? Memorable? Zero
    How many lightsabre duels with Jedi can we watch in the movies. Two, I think
    So... your argument is that if you remove all of the main characters and all of the supporting characters, there aren't any more characters worth mentioning?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Joeltion View Post
    Shouldn't a "susage fest" imply that there are way more than three sausages at a time involved? Few Jedi had any lines to begin with; and I think screentime between the "cameo" aparitions between female and male jedis recognizable to fans is comparable. Most Jedi on the background don't have any lines, but a great deal of them were female in most scenes.

    That's not even counting that most Jedi in the Clone Wars (the only canonical source for more Jedi other than the four males* and Yoda) with names and protagonism were female. The majority of sausage-fest was more evident in the other groups (spearatist leaders, senators, generals and soldiers, etc). The Jedi characters were tightly restricted by the OT, so there was little chance for Lucas to include more females without making an even bigger mess out of the movies. Even then, that disregars the importance of TCW series who had a visible majority (IDK if it's an actual majority) of female protagonists. In fact, I would argue TCW is a better representation of the Jedi as a whole, because the prequels showed too little about the Order to begin with. So, while I grant that obviously Rey is the first female protagonist in a movie to ever wield a LS; the assertion that she is the first fem-Jedi character is misleading. In a movie? Maybe. But she isn't neither the first protagonist, nor the first to wield a saber on screen; not the one the fans were craving for. Ashoka is probably more popular among fans than Rey.

    *Qui-gon, Obi-Wan, Anakin and Mace. Those are the only ones that I remember off the top of my head having more than 2 seconds one-liners.
    Any major character from the films is more popular than any major character from TCW/Rebels. I would wager that Jar Jar is more popular among fans than Ahsoka, in the sense of more people knowing about and liking him. Having a female Jedi as a film protagonist is thus a significant step despite the existence of TCW.

    And the prequels were just a sausage-fest in general. After Padme (and her double), the next most significant female character was...the discount assassin? The head librarian? One of the Jedi cut down in the Order 66 montage?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Joeltion View Post
    Shouldn't a "susage fest" imply that there are way more than three sausages at a time involved? Few Jedi had any lines to begin with; and I think screentime between the "cameo" aparitions between female and male jedis recognizable to fans is comparable. Most Jedi on the background don't have any lines, but a great deal of them were female in most scenes.

    That's not even counting that most Jedi in the Clone Wars (the only canonical source for more Jedi other than the four males* and Yoda) with names and protagonism were female. The majority of sausage-fest was more evident in the other groups (spearatist leaders, senators, generals and soldiers, etc). The Jedi characters were tightly restricted by the OT, so there was little chance for Lucas to include more females without making an even bigger mess out of the movies. Even then, that disregars the importance of TCW series who had a visible majority (IDK if it's an actual majority) of female protagonists. In fact, I would argue TCW is a better representation of the Jedi as a whole, because the prequels showed too little about the Order to begin with. So, while I grant that obviously Rey is the first female protagonist in a movie to ever wield a LS; the assertion that she is the first fem-Jedi character is misleading. In a movie? Maybe. But she isn't neither the first protagonist, nor the first to wield a saber on screen; not the one the fans were craving for. Ashoka is probably more popular among fans than Rey.

    *Qui-gon, Obi-Wan, Anakin and Mace. Those are the only ones that I remember off the top of my head having more than 2 seconds one-liners.



    The problem with questions like the above is that 0/0 is still equality. Forget about OT Jedi and the two who needed to be male because of cast (Neeson and Jackson) See:

    How many sentences were said by Jedi in all of the prequels? Zero
    How many names of Jedi can we learn from the movies? Memorable? Zero
    How many lightsabre duels with Jedi can we watch in the movies. Two, I think

    -The one big battle scene on the arena; which included similar parts of both genders
    -The skirimish with Sidious. That one was a sausage fest, and a clear missed chance to make female jedi appear awesome.
    OT means ANH, ESB and RotJ, right?
    So we ignore Anakin, Yoda, Obi Wan and Luke and Leia, right?

    So let's see:
    Qui Gon: Male
    Mace Windu: Male
    "Tower-Head-Guy" (from High Council): male
    Mace Windu's strike force: male

    Let's look at the evil side as well (I'll ignore Palpatine for obvious reasons):
    Darth Maul: male
    Count Dooku: male

    So, talking "important" characters only (i.e. people with names and who say lines), i'd say it's 2/2 misses on the light side, and 2/2 misses on the dark side of the force, for a score of 4/4 misses.

    Have I forgot someone important?

    For fun, I also checked the Jedi High Council on wookipedia:
    Yes, there are actually a couple females in there - they appear in the movies for about a second each - or something like that.
    If I counted correctly, the Jedi High Council is 3:10 (excluding the "set" members Anakin, Yoda and Obi-Wan)

    ETA:
    Quote Originally Posted by Lethologica View Post
    Any major character from the films is more popular than any major character from TCW/Rebels. I would wager that Jar Jar is more popular among fans than Ahsoka, in the sense of more people knowing about and liking him. Having a female Jedi as a film protagonist is thus a significant step despite the existence of TCW.

    And the prequels were just a sausage-fest in general. After Padme (and her double), the next most significant female character was...the discount assassin? The head librarian? One of the Jedi cut down in the Order 66 montage?
    Hey, you forgot Shmi :-)
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    Last edited by Mightymosy; 2018-03-08 at 03:11 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mightymosy View Post
    wookipedia
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