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  1. - Top - End - #541
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    Default Re: D&D 5th Edition XII: Peasant Militias Can Defeat Smartphones?

    Quote Originally Posted by BayardSPSR View Post
    It's like the designers are throwing out these design goals that are laudable but incompatible and not thinking particularly hard about their demands or implications. I'm starting to wonder if this kind of public beta is a good thing for them - for me, it kind of destroys the myth of competence. Maybe I'm being too harsh - this is the internet, after all; one must expect large numbers of people claiming they can do better. But in this case, I really do believe that half the people on this forum could design better than this company.

    They're so sure they know what they're doing, but they're creating doubts. The cracks are showing. The emperor is not fully clothed.
    Your first part of your post explains away this here. When design goals overreach, then most everyone in the target audiences are less than happy about a long list of things. But changing one or ten of these things willy nilly could easily make even more people unhappy.

    Some random person you met on the internet might successfully design a more modest game, but I can promise that more modest game would be a failure by the higher standards that WotC is trying to achieve.

    Ultimately WotC is writing the checks to create a game that most 1Eish players like more than 1E, most 2Eish players like more than 2E, most 3Eish players like more than 3E/PF, most 4Eish players like more than 4E. That is a very high bar. It might well be impossible -- I do not know.

    But finding some random 1E/2E player to design a game than is merely an improvement on 1E is not much of an accomplishment.

  2. - Top - End - #542
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    Default Re: D&D 5th Edition XII: Peasant Militias Can Defeat Smartphones?

    Quote Originally Posted by Snails View Post
    Your first part of your post explains away this here. When design goals overreach, then most everyone in the target audiences are less than happy about a long list of things. But changing one or ten of these things willy nilly could easily make even more people unhappy.

    Some random person you met on the internet might successfully design a more modest game, but I can promise that more modest game would be a failure by the higher standards that WotC is trying to achieve.

    Ultimately WotC is writing the checks to create a game that most 1Eish players like more than 1E, most 2Eish players like more than 2E, most 3Eish players like more than 3E/PF, most 4Eish players like more than 4E. That is a very high bar. It might well be impossible -- I do not know.

    But finding some random 1E/2E player to design a game than is merely an improvement on 1E is not much of an accomplishment.
    Three editions pathfinding positions under the sky,
    Two editions for grognards in their halls of stone,
    Fourth edition for weapon damage and an effect that rides,
    Fifth edition for the dark wizard on his dark throne.
    Fifth edition to rule them all,
    Fifth edition to find them,
    Fifth edition to bring them all,
    And in the darkness bind them.

    Alternate fourth line:
    "dark wizard under Hasbro."
    Last edited by Icewraith; 2013-08-01 at 06:16 PM.

  3. - Top - End - #543
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    Default Re: D&D 5th Edition XII: Peasant Militias Can Defeat Smartphones?

    Quote Originally Posted by Icewraith View Post
    Three editions pathfinding positions under the sky,
    Two editions for grognards in their halls of stone,
    Fourth edition for weapon damage and an effect that rides,
    Fifth edition for the dark wizard on his dark throne.
    Fifth edition to rule them all,
    Fifth edition to find them,
    Fifth edition to bring them all,
    And in the darkness bind them.
    This is brilliant.

    I'm going to have to save it somewhere...
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  4. - Top - End - #544
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    Default Re: D&D 5th Edition XII: Peasant Militias Can Defeat Smartphones?

    Not sure which version I like better, the original has a better reference to the original material but the altered fourth line is a better reference to the current situation.

    Edit: Also it's a slight off-rhyme.

    I'm glad you like it.
    Last edited by Icewraith; 2013-08-01 at 06:14 PM.

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    Default Re: D&D 5th Edition XII: Peasant Militias Can Defeat Smartphones?

    Quote Originally Posted by Icewraith View Post
    Not sure which version I like better, the original has a better reference to the original material but the altered fourth line is a better reference to the current situation.

    Edit: Also it's a slight off-rhyme.

    I'm glad you like it.
    The original has a better rhythm, which is much preferable to a painful part rhyme. :p
    Things to avoid:

    "Let us tell the story of a certain man. The tale of a man who, more than anyone else, believed in his ideals, and by them was driven into despair."

  6. - Top - End - #546
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    Default Re: D&D 5th Edition XII: Peasant Militias Can Defeat Smartphones?

    Actually the rythym should be the same since the syllable count doesn't change. To make it really work it would probably have to include changing the second line to

    "grognards with their beards of snow."
    or perhaps "halls of dough"
    or "halls of D'oh"

    Meh, keeping the original altered format. Although if I remember to do it I should write up some sort of adventure in the halls of D'oh!

    Edit: The even more metagamey and deadly version of the Tomb of Horrors.

    Double edit: The aforementioned dice pool systems were partially inspired, come to think of it, by a new player in my 4e group's difficulties with a character the DM wrote up that had tons of bonuses based on conditions on the target. Granted they were mostly damage bonuses and I focused on a to-hit rolling system, but she had issues remembering the attack bonuses as well. I suppose the real problem is that higher level play is fairly complex no matter how you slice it in the last two editions.
    Last edited by Icewraith; 2013-08-01 at 06:40 PM.

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    Default Re: D&D 5th Edition XII: Peasant Militias Can Defeat Smartphones?

    There's more to rhythm than simply syllable count; intonation, sound, accents--'on his dark throne' and 'under hasbro' sounds pretty different from where I'm sat.
    Things to avoid:

    "Let us tell the story of a certain man. The tale of a man who, more than anyone else, believed in his ideals, and by them was driven into despair."

  8. - Top - End - #548
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    Default Re: D&D 5th Edition XII: Peasant Militias Can Defeat Smartphones?

    It partially depends on how you're accenting Hasbro (emphasis on first or last syllable) and what region of what country you're from. Where I am, if the company was named Hasbrone (like own as in posession) it would be a nearly perfect replacement execpt you lose the repeated "dark"s. Consider instead maybe

    "Fifth edition for the spazz/jazz/bad/sad/mad/fad wizard under Hasbro"
    or
    "Fifth edition... i can haz wizard under hasbro?"

    Of course then the next lines would be:

    Fifth edition to... kitteh! them all.

    and degenerate from there.
    Last edited by Icewraith; 2013-08-01 at 07:05 PM.

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    Default Re: D&D 5th Edition XII: Peasant Militias Can Defeat Smartphones?

    I accent dark more than throne and bro more than has, so it sounds back to front when I get to the end of the line. XD
    Things to avoid:

    "Let us tell the story of a certain man. The tale of a man who, more than anyone else, believed in his ideals, and by them was driven into despair."

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    Default Re: D&D 5th Edition XII: Peasant Militias Can Defeat Smartphones?

    I'd tend to agree, as the double-'darks' in that line seem to emphasise themselves to me.

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    Default Re: D&D 5th Edition XII: Peasant Militias Can Defeat Smartphones?

    Quote Originally Posted by Moreb Benhk View Post
    I'd tend to agree, as the double-'darks' in that line seem to emphasise themselves to me.
    Much like this, in fact!
    Things to avoid:

    "Let us tell the story of a certain man. The tale of a man who, more than anyone else, believed in his ideals, and by them was driven into despair."

  12. - Top - End - #552
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    Default Re: D&D 5th Edition XII: Peasant Militias Can Defeat Smartphones?

    Since Bounded Accuracy and Modules are going to be things in 5th, may I suggest the following:

    Skills are used as "DC reducers" and use an adjective ladder, as in Fate and one of Monte's early ruminations on skills. These adjectives match a series of standard DCs. For example:

    Master: 20
    Great: 15
    Good: 10
    Average: 5

    For example, Bob, the skillful Rogue has "Great Stealth", "Good Diplomacy" and "Average Arcane Lore". When Bob is called to make a (DEX) stealth check, if the DC is less than Great, he doesn't need to roll, he simply succeeds. If the DC is higher, he rolls against a lower DC defined by difference between his skill and the DC required plus one step on the ladder. So a Master Level Stealth check for Bob requires a Good DEX check (DC 10), while untrained Laura has to make the 20.

    This, to me, has a few advantages. One, it's allows skillful PCs to have that reliability, their skills mean something. It keeps number inflation down, and it doesn't require new information in an adventure. And PCs are still rolling their d20 + ability modifier whether skills are in the game or not.

  13. - Top - End - #553
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    Default Re: D&D 5th Edition XII: Peasant Militias Can Defeat Smartphones?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stubbazubba View Post
    Yes, the RNG does determine frequencies and how they relate to each other, but in RPGs, we typically don't model actual things that happen on a bell curve. I mean, what character action or interaction would actually necessitate a bell curve in order to work appropriately?
    I would argue that in general, skills are best modeled on a bell curve rather than a straight line. In general, people are average, and when they do things, they do them averagely. Training and practice (or lack thereof) move that curve to the left or right, but it's still sort of how everything and everyone works. No one ever opperates at peak performance all the time, and similarly, no one ever always succeeds at things they're trained to do. In fact in my experience trained professionals sometimes have a "familiarity breeds contempt" situation with the basics and will sometimes bork them up worse than a lesser skilled individual. You've probably experienced this yourself if you've ever had a boss or manager that "should know better" but you still have to clean up after them.

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    Default Re: D&D 5th Edition XII: Peasant Militias Can Defeat Smartphones?

    Quote Originally Posted by 1337 b4k4 View Post
    You've probably experienced this yourself if you've ever had a boss or manager that "should know better" but you still have to clean up after them.
    Bosses messing things up are a terrible example, since often they were promoted not because they were especially good at the work, but because they were good at managing (or, still more likely, good at office politics). What's more, often they have been neglecting to keep their skills sharp. Take any moderately competent worker, add a few years of rust, and that's what you'll get.

    D&D does not usually attempt to model the effects of lack of practice all that well, which is why Str and Con never drop due to relaxing an exercise regimen, why you don't lose levels if you sit around for a few years, and so on.
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    Default Re: D&D 5th Edition XII: Peasant Militias Can Defeat Smartphones?

    Quote Originally Posted by TuggyNE View Post
    Bosses messing things up are a terrible example, since often they were promoted not because they were especially good at the work, but because they were good at managing (or, still more likely, good at office politics). What's more, often they have been neglecting to keep their skills sharp. Take any moderately competent worker, add a few years of rust, and that's what you'll get.
    For another example - find a math major, and present them with some fairly basic arithmetic. They still will screw things up sometimes, seemingly far more often than you would expect given all of the complex stuff they do.
    I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums.

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    Default Re: D&D 5th Edition XII: Peasant Militias Can Defeat Smartphones?

    Quote Originally Posted by Knaight View Post
    For another example - find a math major, and present them with some fairly basic arithmetic. They still will screw things up sometimes, seemingly far more often than you would expect given all of the complex stuff they do.
    For someone working on proving the Riemann hypothesis? Sure, I totally believe that they could be no better than the average 5th grader at doing times tables. Thing is though you can totally practice for speed and accuracy with simple arithmetic for competitions and the like and become practically superhuman at it. They're both called "math" but they're actually two very different skillsets, and thus I think they're a bit of a bad example of how "experts can still routinely screw up at really basic stuff."

  17. - Top - End - #557
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    Default Re: D&D 5th Edition XII: Peasant Militias Can Defeat Smartphones?

    Quote Originally Posted by TuggyNE View Post
    Bosses messing things up are a terrible example, since often they were promoted not because they were especially good at the work, but because they were good at managing (or, still more likely, good at office politics). What's more, often they have been neglecting to keep their skills sharp. Take any moderately competent worker, add a few years of rust, and that's what you'll get.
    There's been some research on promotions. It is not at all uncommon to promote people who are good at what they do. If they are then good in the new position, they'll likely get promoted again, and again, and again. This continues until they are no longer good at what they are doing. They are not demoted. In this way, promotions ensure incompetent management.

    Companies would actually be more effective, it was shown, by promoting randomly or by promoting both the worst and best workers. Being good at the low level of a job, even being great, in no way ensures you can be good at managing that job. The skills are not closely related.

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    Default Re: D&D 5th Edition XII: Peasant Militias Can Defeat Smartphones?

    Quote Originally Posted by ImperiousLeader View Post
    Since Bounded Accuracy and Modules are going to be things in 5th, may I suggest the following:

    Skills are used as "DC reducers" and use an adjective ladder, as in Fate and one of Monte's early ruminations on skills. These adjectives match a series of standard DCs. For example:

    Master: 20
    Great: 15
    Good: 10
    Average: 5

    For example, Bob, the skillful Rogue has "Great Stealth", "Good Diplomacy" and "Average Arcane Lore". When Bob is called to make a (DEX) stealth check, if the DC is less than Great, he doesn't need to roll, he simply succeeds. If the DC is higher, he rolls against a lower DC defined by difference between his skill and the DC required plus one step on the ladder. So a Master Level Stealth check for Bob requires a Good DEX check (DC 10), while untrained Laura has to make the 20.

    This, to me, has a few advantages. One, it's allows skillful PCs to have that reliability, their skills mean something. It keeps number inflation down, and it doesn't require new information in an adventure. And PCs are still rolling their d20 + ability modifier whether skills are in the game or not.
    Automatically succeeding is boring.

    That gets back to the issue of the "Cloaking Device" Rogue that Mike Mearls and Rodney Thompson were discussing in one of the Podcasts.
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    Default Re: D&D 5th Edition XII: Peasant Militias Can Defeat Smartphones?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stubbazubba View Post
    Let's talk about this first. Have you played a Cortex game, like Smallville or Marvel Heroic Roleplaying? Do you know how much 7 seconds pulls you right out of the moment while you fish for the right dice?
    In those games, if sudden use of a skill you've never touched before surprises you, somehow, while you're so immersed that you can see the general direction of the story, you're doing it wrong.

    Tere really isn't fluff and crunch synergy. You'd have to roll a whole bunch of skill dice in order to ensure consistency, and that would be cumbersome to total up each time, and leave you with the chance of accidentally rolling a 40+ at level 5 on occasion, which is just ridiculous.
    Show me where in the system having skills default to d6, and being skilled giving you a d8, somehow lets you roll above 40 (let alone above 8!) and I'll consider your points valid. As is, you misse that "the system" in question was the savage worlds skill system or an analogue, using ONLY d6 or D8 or D10 or whatever.

    Quote Originally Posted by ImperiousLeader View Post
    Since Bounded Accuracy and Modules are going to be things in 5th, may I suggest the following:

    Skills are used as "DC reducers" and use an adjective ladder, as in Fate and one of Monte's early ruminations on skills. These adjectives match a series of standard DCs. For example:

    Master: 20
    Great: 15
    Good: 10
    Average: 5

    For example, Bob, the skillful Rogue has "Great Stealth", "Good Diplomacy" and "Average Arcane Lore". When Bob is called to make a (DEX) stealth check, if the DC is less than Great, he doesn't need to roll, he simply succeeds. If the DC is higher, he rolls against a lower DC defined by difference between his skill and the DC required plus one step on the ladder. So a Master Level Stealth check for Bob requires a Good DEX check (DC 10), while untrained Laura has to make the 20.

    This, to me, has a few advantages. One, it's allows skillful PCs to have that reliability, their skills mean something. It keeps number inflation down, and it doesn't require new information in an adventure. And PCs are still rolling their d20 + ability modifier whether skills are in the game or not.
    "but then you're subject to DM fiat and the game breaks down if you disagree on whether you're great or whatever".
    I like the idea, the Internet think tank seems not to care for it.

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    Default Re: D&D 5th Edition XII: Peasant Militias Can Defeat Smartphones?

    Quote Originally Posted by Felhammer View Post
    Automatically succeeding is boring.

    That gets back to the issue of the "Cloaking Device" Rogue that Mike Mearls and Rodney Thompson were discussing in one of the Podcasts.
    Why? Why is rolling for everything so much better, or fun? What purpose does rolling for everything serve?

    I am not saying that you should be able to build a character that auto succeeds at everything, just that you should be able to build a character that auto succeeds at certain things. Things that should be trivial for that character concept.

    So what if a Rogue can stealth around goblins and orcs all day long? He invested a lot into stealth, why deny him the opportunity to use that? That does not mean he should be able to automatically stealth around dragons and beholders.

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    Default Re: D&D 5th Edition XII: Peasant Militias Can Defeat Smartphones?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tehnar View Post
    Why? Why is rolling for everything so much better, or fun? What purpose does rolling for everything serve?

    I am not saying that you should be able to build a character that auto succeeds at everything, just that you should be able to build a character that auto succeeds at certain things. Things that should be trivial for that character concept.

    So what if a Rogue can stealth around goblins and orcs all day long? He invested a lot into stealth, why deny him the opportunity to use that? That does not mean he should be able to automatically stealth around dragons and beholders.
    Rolling engages the players and lends an air of suspense to the game because success is not certain. Even a master thief gets sloppy sometimes.

    Additionally, your system isn't granulated enough to represent incremental character growth. With your system, if the Rogue is at Great, and he's forced to roll, then he already knows the DC is just five points higher. He will know almost instantly if he succeeded or failed. Sad to say but I find it very boring and uninteresting.

    If there were, say 20 levels of Mastery, then the system would be more interesting because there would be more mystery as to just how high the DC actually is in comparison to your Mastery Level. However, at that point, you may as well just go back to a more normal skill system.
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    Default Re: D&D 5th Edition XII: Peasant Militias Can Defeat Smartphones?

    Quote Originally Posted by ImperiousLeader View Post
    For example, Bob, the skillful Rogue has "Great Stealth", "Good Diplomacy" and "Average Arcane Lore". When Bob is called to make a (DEX) stealth check, if the DC is less than Great, he doesn't need to roll, he simply succeeds. If the DC is higher, he rolls against a lower DC defined by difference between his skill and the DC required plus one step on the ladder. So a Master Level Stealth check for Bob requires a Good DEX check (DC 10), while untrained Laura has to make the 20.
    I cannot untangle this to work out how you arrived at a DC of 10.
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    Default Re: D&D 5th Edition XII: Peasant Militias Can Defeat Smartphones?

    Fair warning: I am probably not lucid.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tehnar View Post
    So what if a Rogue can stealth around goblins and orcs all day long? He invested a lot into stealth, why deny him the opportunity to use that? That does not mean he should be able to automatically stealth around dragons and beholders.
    Because this leads to games where it's always beholder's and dragons. If one character or player routinely circumvents a mechanic or skill, standard DMery is to stick them in that spot so they are challenged.

    This means that if your ninth level warlock can wear Adamantine armor, the DM will throw stone collosii at you because you can't hurt them and they am still hurt you.

    Or if you melee well, a strafing dragon. Or if you sneak well, impermeable alarm traps. Or if you always cast a certain spell, enemies will mysteriously start to be of the 'invulnerable to that spell' type.

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    Default Re: D&D 5th Edition XII: Peasant Militias Can Defeat Smartphones?

    Quote Originally Posted by Felhammer View Post
    Automatically succeeding is boring.

    That gets back to the issue of the "Cloaking Device" Rogue that Mike Mearls and Rodney Thompson were discussing in one of the Podcasts.
    Disagree. Automatic success at predetermined 'trivial' things is satisfying and cements the feel of no longer being a mook. Automatic success is only boring if few things ever are challenging enough to roll (which means all the challenges you come against are too easy). Being highly skilled and failing at trivial things is frustrating and unempowering.

    Quote Originally Posted by SiuiS View Post
    Fair warning: I am probably not lucid.

    Because this leads to games where it's always beholder's and dragons. If one character or player routinely circumvents a mechanic or skill, standard DMery is to stick them in that spot so they are challenged.

    This means that if your ninth level warlock can wear Adamantine armor, the DM will throw stone collosii at you because you can't hurt them and they am still hurt you.

    Or if you melee well, a strafing dragon. Or if you sneak well, impermeable alarm traps. Or if you always cast a certain spell, enemies will mysteriously start to be of the 'invulnerable to that spell' type.
    I think this is a overcondensation of scope. 3E's problem was that crazy stacking meant that you could reach the point I mentioned previously, where pretty much every challenge becomes trivial for skill X (eg- the diplomancer). I think there is plenty of scope for allowing skills enough growth space for some things that were previously rolled for to be deemed 'autosuccess' without hitting 3E craziness.

    Heck, getting a +15 total modifier (or equivalent) puts DC 10 and 15 tasks into 'autowin territory' (current easy/medium tasks) and DC 20 into 'roll but expect to succeed' (current hard) and DC 25 into 'a decent challenge, especially if no/limited rerolls possible'. That seems a reasonable spectrum to me.

    Mr Stealthmeister can autostealth past bored mook guards paying no attention, but would have to roll against alert trained guards. Or something like that. Adjust scale to suit.

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    Default Re: D&D 5th Edition XII: Peasant Militias Can Defeat Smartphones?

    Quote Originally Posted by Moreb Benhk View Post
    Disagree. Automatic success at predetermined 'trivial' things is satisfying and cements the feel of no longer being a mook. Automatic success is only boring if few things ever are challenging enough to roll (which means all the challenges you come against are too easy). Being highly skilled and failing at trivial things is frustrating and unempowering.
    Rolling a 1 in combat vs. a Peasant is even more unempowering, doubly so for the skilled Fighter or deadly assassin. Some times you just mess up. It happens. The fun part of the game is justifying why it happened and dealing with the consequences. If you are always succeeding in stealth then there is no drama, no excitement, nothing. I activate my cloaking device and wander around town stealing everyone's coin purses.

    Automatic successes are just as bad as "I win button" wizarding or taking 10/20.

    Quote Originally Posted by Moreb Benhk View Post
    I think this is a overcondensation of scope. 3E's problem was that crazy stacking meant that you could reach the point I mentioned previously, where pretty much every challenge becomes trivial for skill X (eg- the diplomancer). I think there is plenty of scope for allowing skills enough growth space for some things that were previously rolled for to be deemed 'autosuccess' without hitting 3E craziness.
    Or you could just eliminate all the crazy extra modifiers and let a well tested system work as intended.

    Quote Originally Posted by Moreb Benhk View Post
    Heck, getting a +15 total modifier (or equivalent) puts DC 10 and 15 tasks into 'autowin territory' (current easy/medium tasks) and DC 20 into 'roll but expect to succeed' (current hard) and DC 25 into 'a decent challenge, especially if no/limited rerolls possible'. That seems a reasonable spectrum to me.

    Mr Stealthmeister can autostealth past bored mook guards paying no attention, but would have to roll against alert trained guards. Or something like that. Adjust scale to suit.
    If Autowin is already baked into the system, why does everything else need to be converted to an autowin mechanic?

    You can easily convert the mechanic you like out of the mechanic that I like, where as the opposite is not true (as it changes player expectations for the worse (i.e. dealing with "what do you mean I don't auto pass!?).

    Additionally, the other poster's mechanic was far too simplistic for what is needed if you truly wanted to implement a system such as this. There needs to be far more gradation or lest players will easily metagame the system, to the detriment of the playing experience.
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  26. - Top - End - #566
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    Default Re: D&D 5th Edition XII: Peasant Militias Can Defeat Smartphones?

    Quote Originally Posted by Felhammer View Post
    Rolling a 1 in combat vs. a Peasant is even more unempowering, doubly so for the skilled Fighter or deadly assassin. Some times you just mess up. It happens. The fun part of the game is justifying why it happened and dealing with the consequences. If you are always succeeding in stealth then there is no drama, no excitement, nothing. I activate my cloaking device and wander around town stealing everyone's coin purses.

    Automatic successes are just as bad as "I win button" wizarding or taking 10/20.
    'Always succeed, every time' is not the same as 'always succeed on easy tasks'.

    ... also, there should be a point where a 1 isn't an automatic failure to hit a butt naked peasant from behind. Eh.
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    Default Re: D&D 5th Edition XII: Peasant Militias Can Defeat Smartphones?

    We can say that rolling dice is fun. This doesn't mean that automatically succeeding is inherently bad. Making staircases DC 2 to climb, for example, would be patently absurd, as would be making an upright needle DC 20 to balance on. Most things are automatic successes or failures; you only roll when the result is uncertain.

    Remember that every time you roll dice, you're stopping what you were doing to compare some numbers. No matter how elegant an uncertainty-resolution system is, it's always going to take more time than letting obvious results stand. (I consider fiat to be an uncertainty-resolution system of its own, since giving a DM a chance to stop and wonder what the result should be takes time too.)

    What am I trying to get at? I don't know. We're spending a lot of time trying to figure out "how good is good" and "how hard is hard". "On a scale of 1 to 20, how hard is kicking down a door?" "But what if you're really good at kicking down doors?"



    The whole mechanic is used more like a punishment, anyway. After all, the best spells and class abilities are the ones that bypass it completely. In practice it works like a random gate to slow down PCs and disrupt their intended courses of action, the way traps work like an hp-gate. Monsters, of course, aren't a punishment - you get xp for them.

    Actually, let's look at that more closely. If these are the three things that inhibit PCs from the completion of their objectives, sapping hp and abilities depending on their exact mechanics, there's only one that the PCs actually get anything out of. One mechanic has a random exchange, the other two are just randomly-applied losses, and therefore to be avoided whenever possible by any rational person.

    Granted, there are potential positive uses of skills, like taking shortcuts and enlisting peasant militias, but DMs tend not to approve of those. Are there actually any written modules where skills are opportunities, not punishments? Has that happened at all in the podcasts?

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    Default Re: D&D 5th Edition XII: Peasant Militias Can Defeat Smartphones?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tehnar View Post
    So what if a Rogue can stealth around goblins and orcs all day long? He invested a lot into stealth, why deny him the opportunity to use that? That does not mean he should be able to automatically stealth around dragons and beholders.
    Have you ever DM'd a 3.5 game with a player optimized with Hide/Move Silently and Darkstalker? In my personal experience, it truly sucks for the DM and other players. If the PC basically has a cloaking device that can only be bypassed by a small sub-set of enemies, then:
    • That player sets the terms for the entire game - he constantly has the spotlight because he's scouting ahead with little danger of being found while his non-hidden party members wait, he can pick and choose which encounters to fight in, he can retreat without danger of being followed, etc.
    • And/or DM must insert creatures that can specifically defeat that PCs cloaking ability, even if they otherwise unbalance the game or don't fit into his campaign.


    So it makes sense to me that there should be some maximum ceiling on any success rate for every challenging action. (And the DM should be given explicit guidance on how to adjudicate whether or not it is challenging, and thus requires a roll). Everything (including spells, special abilities, etc) that effects an enemy should require some kind of roll, and the math for those rolls need to be bounded in some way so that you can't break the math, and thus break the game.

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    Default Re: D&D 5th Edition XII: Peasant Militias Can Defeat Smartphones?

    Quote Originally Posted by Person_Man View Post
    *SNIP*
    3.5 gets fairly ridiculous like that, with Spot and Listen not being universally available, running off a stat most monsters are unlikely to have, limited skill points, and modifier stacking. That, in a system where someone can raise the floor so high as to be undetectable by someone that hasn't invested in being capable of seeing anything, it can become completely broken? Yeah, it's inevitable.

    This does not, however, mean that the concept of automatic success against something with no investment and many, many levels below you is inherently bad. Skill improvement shouldn't be limited to raising the ceiling but leaving the floor exactly where it is.
    Things to avoid:

    "Let us tell the story of a certain man. The tale of a man who, more than anyone else, believed in his ideals, and by them was driven into despair."

  30. - Top - End - #570
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    Default Re: D&D 5th Edition XII: Peasant Militias Can Defeat Smartphones?

    Quote Originally Posted by Raineh Daze View Post
    This does not, however, mean that the concept of automatic success against something with no investment and many, many levels below you is inherently bad. Skill improvement shouldn't be limited to raising the ceiling but leaving the floor exactly where it is.
    Hence why I argue a bell curve is a much more reasonable modeling mechanic for "single shot" skills. Because real life skill improvement is all about raising the ceiling, leaving the floor where it is and shifting the curve closer to the ceiling.

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