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    Default Re: League of Legends XXXVIII: Featuring Mumble, The Giant Halibut

    Quote Originally Posted by Mephit View Post
    Leona dumps not nearly as hard on Sona as Blitzcrank does, especially in solo q. Ali is still a good support, but is more banned because of his ridiculous jungle presence than for his supporting.

    A lot less people also have/play Leona than Blitzcrank.
    There's also the massive, incredible game-changing difference: Leona goes to the enemy, but the enemy comes to Blitzcrank. Makes Blitz much more forgiving.

  2. - Top - End - #842
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    Default Re: League of Legends XXXVIII: Featuring Mumble, The Giant Halibut

    Quote Originally Posted by Laudandus View Post
    At high elo bans have gone crazy, because there are about 15 champions people seem to want banned, between the ones I think are dumb to ban (Shen, Alistar), and the ones that are totally reasonable (Ezreal, Skarner).

    The bans that are common, and they're all about as common as each other, are something like:

    Jayce, Shen, Alistar, Ezreal, Skarner, Amumu, Katarina, Evelynn, Rengar, Blitzcrank
    I was with you as far as Skarner. I've only seen him banned once, and it was a "What were they thinking?" moment, like when the opposing team banned Syndra or left Shen open.
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    Default Re: League of Legends XXXVIII: Featuring Mumble, The Giant Halibut

    Quote Originally Posted by Laudandus View Post
    At high elo bans have gone crazy, because there are about 15 champions people seem to want banned, between the ones I think are dumb to ban (Shen, Alistar), and the ones that are totally reasonable (Ezreal, Skarner).

    The bans that are common, and they're all about as common as each other, are something like:

    Jayce
    Shen
    Alistar
    Ezreal
    Skarner
    Amumu
    Katarina
    Evelynn
    Rengar
    Blitzcrank
    As the champion pool grows, what does everyone think about adding another ban slot to each side? 4 bans per team and 8 total.

    Personally I am all for it as it could lead to situations where an entire area of the game is banned out (banned Ez and Graves, picked corki) thus forcing more alternative picks which would lead to less meta stagnation.

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    Default Re: League of Legends XXXVIII: Featuring Mumble, The Giant Halibut

    Quote Originally Posted by LordShotGun View Post
    As the champion pool grows, what does everyone think about adding another ban slot to each side? 4 bans per team and 8 total.

    Personally I am all for it as it could lead to situations where an entire area of the game is banned out (banned Ez and Graves, picked corki) thus forcing more alternative picks which would lead to less meta stagnation.
    It might get tough if one gets too into the idea of adding ever more bans. Draft pick/ranked games already take quite a while already, imagine if there are eventually 6 bans per team?

    In this case, though...I doubt one would do that. Look at current bans, in my experience at least, they're generally spread out over the champion types.
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    Default Re: League of Legends XXXVIII: Featuring Mumble, The Giant Halibut

    Quote Originally Posted by PersonMan View Post
    It might get tough if one gets too into the idea of adding ever more bans. Draft pick/ranked games already take quite a while already, imagine if there are eventually 6 bans per team?

    In this case, though...I doubt one would do that. Look at current bans, in my experience at least, they're generally spread out over the champion types.
    Well 6 bans per team would be excessive. I just want ONE more. Well technically two but whatever.
    Last edited by LordShotGun; 2012-10-09 at 02:28 PM.

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    Default Re: League of Legends XXXVIII: Featuring Mumble, The Giant Halibut

    Quote Originally Posted by Recaiden View Post
    I was with you as far as Skarner. I've only seen him banned once, and it was a "What were they thinking?" moment, like when the opposing team banned Syndra or left Shen open.
    Shen has a 47% winrate or so, so banning him actively hurts your team unless you want to prevent a teammate from getting him. Skarner, on the other hand, is quite powerful. Skarner is a far more reasonable ban, and the fact that I am particularly bad against him doesn't hurt my desire to ban him.

    Skarner is a pretty frequent ban in my experience, though Shen is too so who knows. At least people are slowly ceasing to ban alistar and shen, though it'll be probably a few more months before they stop completely.

    As for more bans, I don't really like bans as a game mechanic in the first place so I'm very in favor of them being removed. I guess the main benefit in solo queue is reducing the value of first pick and stopping picks from being used as pseudobans; it's nice, but really I think if champions were never banned people's understanding of those champions would be much better and counterplay would be easier to develop.
    Last edited by Laudandus; 2012-10-09 at 02:40 PM.
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    Default Re: League of Legends XXXVIII: Featuring Mumble, The Giant Halibut

    Quote Originally Posted by TheShrike View Post
    There's also the massive, incredible game-changing difference: Leona goes to the enemy, but the enemy comes to Blitzcrank. Makes Blitz much more forgiving.
    As someone who watched my friend who mains Blitz dive into the enemy time and time again as Malphite/Leona, I can definitely second this.

    Blitzcrank also makes teamfights easy. The team formation isn't disrupted if Blitz engages and it makes target prioritizing easy (focus the pull target). If Blitz fails to initiate properly, the team can disengage pretty easily.

    Quote Originally Posted by Laudandus View Post
    Shen has a 47% winrate or so, so banning him actively hurts your team unless you want to prevent a teammate from getting him. Skarner, on the other hand, is quite powerful. Skarner is a far more reasonable ban, and the fact that I am particularly bad against him doesn't hurt my desire to ban him.

    Skarner is a pretty frequent ban in my experience, though Shen is too so who knows. At least people are slowly ceasing to ban alistar and shen, though it'll be probably a few more months before they stop completely.
    I haven't seen Skarner banned, much less played in my ranked games. I'd love it if Alistar wasn't constantly banned; he's the only support I have a lot of experience on, but the pros constantly ban him too.

    Also, Shen is highly played on the tournament level and really helps your team in solo queue by saving your teammates and rapidly changing a teamfight into your favor.
    Last edited by Joran; 2012-10-09 at 02:44 PM.

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    Default Re: League of Legends XXXVIII: Featuring Mumble, The Giant Halibut

    Quote Originally Posted by Laudandus View Post
    Shen has a 47% winrate or so, so banning him actively hurts your team unless you want to prevent a teammate from getting him. Skarner, on the other hand, is quite powerful. Skarner is a far more reasonable ban, and the fact that I am particularly bad against him doesn't hurt my desire to ban him.
    Alistar has a 44% win rate. Just saying.
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    Default Re: League of Legends XXXVIII: Featuring Mumble, The Giant Halibut

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldariel View Post
    I think Alistar is a pretty bad champion in solo queue overall, as evidenced by that.

    In tournament people do ban Alistar and Shen. I understand the Shen, because he becomes much stronger when you can set up cross-map dives with him, but I'm still not quite following Alistar as a strong jungler. I guess pro players have tricks with him that I don't see, but I find him very, very underwhelming to play against.
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    Default Re: League of Legends XXXVIII: Featuring Mumble, The Giant Halibut

    Quote Originally Posted by Laudandus View Post
    I think Alistar is a pretty bad champion in solo queue overall, as evidenced by that.

    In tournament people do ban Alistar and Shen. I understand the Shen, because he becomes much stronger when you can set up cross-map dives with him, but I'm still not quite following Alistar as a strong jungler. I guess pro players have tricks with him that I don't see, but I find him very, very underwhelming to play against.
    Well, I do remember M5's Alistar-play; makes for really brutal ganks combined with jungler, flash over wall followed by e.g. Lee Sin Safeguard (under enemey tower headbutting them away) into 110% certain kills. Over and over and over.
    Last edited by Eldariel; 2012-10-09 at 03:05 PM.
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    Default Re: League of Legends XXXVIII: Featuring Mumble, The Giant Halibut

    LoLKing only references the stats of those players it becomes aware of. It becomes aware of players by seeing a summoner name reference for that player, and then aggregates from that point forward by hitting the same API that reveals the last 10 games play in the LoL client.
    It sees a summoner name reference usually by players using LoLKing to check stats.

    LoLKing's win/loss ratio is based on what it can gather from there.

    Which means:
    The data is NOT an accurate view of win or loss rates. It's heavily corrupted in fact. There is only a specific mindset of player that would check LoLKing and that provides a self-selected subset already for the stats to gather from.

    I don't recommend using LoLKing for arguments.
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    Default Re: League of Legends XXXVIII: Featuring Mumble, The Giant Halibut

    Alistar has a 44% win rate. Just saying.
    And that is weird, is the nerfs he took really that bad?

    Because i remember last time i was jungling him i stopped because it was to easy, and i feared artificially inflating my elo.
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    Default Re: League of Legends XXXVIII: Featuring Mumble, The Giant Halibut

    Quote Originally Posted by SweetRein View Post
    LoLKing only references the stats of those players it becomes aware of. It becomes aware of players by seeing a summoner name reference for that player, and then aggregates from that point forward by hitting the same API that reveals the last 10 games play in the LoL client.
    It sees a summoner name reference usually by players using LoLKing to check stats.

    LoLKing's win/loss ratio is based on what it can gather from there.

    Which means:
    The data is NOT an accurate view of win or loss rates. It's heavily corrupted in fact. There is only a specific mindset of player that would check LoLKing and that provides a self-selected subset already for the stats to gather from.

    I don't recommend using LoLKing for arguments.
    Is elo buff any better? I mean, I'd hope it is, as its a premium service.

    @Alistair: Alistair is good because he's the new Lee Sin. Level 2 ganks still mess with people in an extremely annoying way in solo queue, and furthermore, Alistair benefits more than Lee Sin from starting at Blue. Alistair is a very strong tank out of the jungle because of his ult, so he can afford to build less tanky items such as Shurelias for his team, thus acting as both a 2nd support and a tank with equal effectiveness (compare this to traditional bruiser junglers. Alistair is always more tanky than Nocturne or Lee Sin).

    Alistair is also good because he easily fills two roles: Support and Jungle. A lot of junglers such as Skarner and Moakai have a much harder time operating as either a support or a bruiser top (though many, such as Chogath, lane and jungle amazingly well).

    Finally, Alistair is good because he has very strong intiation. I realize that there are many junglers who have this, but its a fact nonetheless.

    Regarding Shen: Shen having a low winrate at this point doesn't surprise me. Shen is a hero that makes his team stronger at his own expense. This is very good in a team environment where he can work with his team, but in solo queue its always a crap shot when you play him because you are relying on your team. Also: I suspect most people don't build him ideally for carrying (as in, build warmogs or something instead of Triforce)

    edit: I'm glad that High Elo bans are becoming more varied. One of the things I like about banning is being able to get rid of heroes YOUR TEAM finds problematic, or perhaps, in a situation where you are aware of the enemies strengths, etc, you can ban out their heroes as well. What I don't like is when the same 6 heroes are banned every game, which was the case for like 2-3 months recently. I LIKE shen, he's a fun hero to play, but for me to play him I have to play blind pick normals, which is something I abhor.

    Another thing about bans: Often times people randomly ban champions based on their performance at LAN events. Not to say that if a hero magically becomes the top pick or ban at a LAN then that hero isn't OP, but that often times heroes are top picks or bans at LANs because of how high elo players can abuse them and how they function in the environment of 5v5 versus solo queue. Shen is probably the best example of this.
    Last edited by toasty; 2012-10-09 at 03:56 PM.

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    Default Re: League of Legends XXXVIII: Featuring Mumble, The Giant Halibut

    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    And that is weird, is the nerfs he took really that bad?

    Because i remember last time i was jungling him i stopped because it was to easy, and i feared artificially inflating my elo.
    Hm. His nerfs don't seem huge to me. They nerfed his initiating/chasing ability a bit, but he stays the way he was.
    I can't say if Alistar's 44% win ratio is justified. I managed to reach gold Elo playing mostly him and Mundo; I found that all I had to do was walk up behind someone and just punt them towards my laner and they'd usually have some idea on what to do. It was that easy - enemy laners weren't particularly alert during the ganks. That, and I could lead my team into jungle invades and insta-win them by the virtue of being Alistar. And then I'd just scale into a tough tank with a lot of utility or even damage since I got a lot of gold.

    I figure his losses might come from people taking him "just because he's banned and we need him on our team since he's OP" (and then it turns out nobody on the team can play him), getting a setback that screws up your early ganking power (Alistar isn't really a good jungler, he's a good ganker; if you don't get a few early kills you can still be a good tank, but if the enemy jungler scales better and got some kills you might be in a pickle) or not dealing enough damage to carry a team. That, and I don't know if the 44% win ratio comes from all Elo ranks; but if it does, I figure that people know better how to deal with Alistar on higher Elo. That, and the statistic doesn't distinguish between support Alistars and jungle Alistars.

    For me, Alistar seems like a viable choice for raising Elo at least to a certain point, but there are probably junglers that are more self-reliant and thus safer than him. Lee Sin comes to mind. So does Nocturne, IMHO.

    And I don't buy that Alistar is the new Lee Sin. With Lee Sin I can bully their jungler and control both jungles way more easily while dealing more damage and scaling better with damage items. Sure, in terms of a competitive pick, Alistar fits the bill of an early aggressive ganker that destroys enemy laners and that's Lee Sin's primary purpose as well, but I find Lee Sin to be more versatile in the early game at the very least. In late game though I'd probably prefer an Alistar's initiation over Lee Sin's waning bruiser power. Shrug.
    Last edited by Winthur; 2012-10-09 at 03:50 PM.
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    Default Re: League of Legends XXXVIII: Featuring Mumble, The Giant Halibut

    And I don't buy that Alistar is the new Lee Sin.
    I meant this purely because, in my opinion, the most annoying thing about Lee Sin is how every. single. game. involving him meant top lane dying at 2:20.

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    Default Re: League of Legends XXXVIII: Featuring Mumble, The Giant Halibut

    Quote Originally Posted by toasty View Post
    I meant this purely because, in my opinion, the most annoying thing about Lee Sin is how every. single. game. involving him meant top lane dying at 2:20.
    Ah. So you just wanted to say "Alistar is the new old jungle Nunu".
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    Default Re: League of Legends XXXVIII: Featuring Mumble, The Giant Halibut

    Quote Originally Posted by SweetRein View Post
    LoLKing only references the stats of those players it becomes aware of. It becomes aware of players by seeing a summoner name reference for that player, and then aggregates from that point forward by hitting the same API that reveals the last 10 games play in the LoL client.
    It sees a summoner name reference usually by players using LoLKing to check stats.

    LoLKing's win/loss ratio is based on what it can gather from there.

    Which means:
    The data is NOT an accurate view of win or loss rates. It's heavily corrupted in fact. There is only a specific mindset of player that would check LoLKing and that provides a self-selected subset already for the stats to gather from.

    I don't recommend using LoLKing for arguments.
    I'd heard that winrates there were somewhat inaccurate, thanks for telling me how it works! Still, though, the things that I see there, barring Zyra's large winrate, agree with my assessment of how strong champions are anyway - if LoLking is inaccurate, then I'm bad at assessing champion strength, which I suppose is quite possible.

    Quote Originally Posted by toasty View Post
    @Alistair: Alistair is good because he's the new Lee Sin. Level 2 ganks still mess with people in an extremely annoying way in solo queue, and furthermore, Alistair benefits more than Lee Sin from starting at Blue. Alistair is a very strong tank out of the jungle because of his ult, so he can afford to build less tanky items such as Shurelias for his team, thus acting as both a 2nd support and a tank with equal effectiveness (compare this to traditional bruiser junglers. Alistair is always more tanky than Nocturne or Lee Sin).

    Alistair is also good because he easily fills two roles: Support and Jungle. A lot of junglers such as Skarner and Moakai have a much harder time operating as either a support or a bruiser top (though many, such as Chogath, lane and jungle amazingly well).

    Finally, Alistair is good because he has very strong intiation. I realize that there are many junglers who have this, but its a fact nonetheless.

    Regarding Shen: Shen having a low winrate at this point doesn't surprise me. Shen is a hero that makes his team stronger at his own expense. This is very good in a team environment where he can work with his team, but in solo queue its always a crap shot when you play him because you are relying on your team. Also: I suspect most people don't build him ideally for carrying (as in, build warmogs or something instead of Triforce)
    Level 2 ganks I can see being a strong point for Alistar, though they still don't impress me too much (he has no damage anymore!) but after that, his midgame presence is just so weak, and even in the level 2 ganks a countergank by literally anyone means Alistar loses the fight.

    "Relying on your team to be good" shouldn't reduce a champion's winrate, really. It should only reduce it when a player is significantly better than his teammates, which is rare. In most average cases, it should even out to be fine. What makes a champion bad in solo queue, but reasonable in competitive is in my opinion a combination of:

    -Reliance on a specific strategy (Tristana, maybe Alistar, Shen)
    -Reliance on coordination in general (Anivia for wall, Janna, kinda Orianna)

    Whereas strong solo queue champions, like Skarner or Amumu, punish poor coordination and/or roam and gank well, while having an ability to snowball off of successful ganking.
    Last edited by Laudandus; 2012-10-09 at 04:05 PM.
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    Default Re: League of Legends XXXVIII: Featuring Mumble, The Giant Halibut

    Quote Originally Posted by toasty View Post
    Is elo buff any better? I mean, I'd hope it is, as its a premium service.
    It can't be. The only way to gather stats is via summoner name showing the last 10. Stats are not released outside of Riot.

    Quote Originally Posted by Laudandus View Post
    I'd heard that winrates there were somewhat inaccurate, thanks for telling me how it works! Still, though, the things that I see there, barring Zyra's large winrate, agree with my assessment of how strong champions are anyway - if LoLking is inaccurate, then I'm bad at assessing champion strength, which I suppose is quite possible.
    It's not always inaccurate, but that's by chance more than anything. Though, there is also a degree of self reference at play.

    A common recursive mindset (and the reason why we avoid releasing overall winrates):
    Champion A is of a complex nature or is countered by this week's choice champion. Ergo, Champion A's winrate drops.
    Player B see Champion A has a lower winrate, they declare that champion "bad".
    Player B queues up and an ally chooses Champion A in a later week, even after the conditions that made Champion A bad are removed.
    Player B plays less confidently or actively exerts negative player behavior. This reduces the potential winrate of the game overall.

    If the crowd effect of this is large enough and you happen to fill in the group that uses things such as LoLKing to be part of this crowd effect, then you contribute to this wheel.
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    Default Re: League of Legends XXXVIII: Featuring Mumble, The Giant Halibut

    I love that feeling when you go 1/0/17 as a support, get your carry fed, and your whole team loves you.
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    Default Re: League of Legends XXXVIII: Featuring Mumble, The Giant Halibut

    Quote Originally Posted by Chess435 View Post
    I love that feeling when you go 1/0/17 as a support, get your carry fed, and your whole team loves you.
    You lucky, lucky person. I do that as a tank and I get a carry bragging about how they are the bestest thing in the history of everything, then berating me for stealing that one kill when they weren't even present.

    Also tanks are worthless and only good for dying anyway what am I doing not being a carry et cetra.
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    Default Re: League of Legends XXXVIII: Featuring Mumble, The Giant Halibut

    Quote Originally Posted by Cogwheel View Post
    You lucky, lucky person. I do that as a tank and I get a carry bragging about how they are the bestest thing in the history of everything, then berating me for stealing that one kill when they weren't even present.

    Also tanks are worthless and only good for dying anyway what am I doing not being a carry et cetra.
    I haven't had this experience in a long, long time (though last night I did have a rather annoying teammate who called Zach a complete noob the entire game as we quietly carried him), its a terrible thing to experience though, because tanks carry games REALLY HARD in a lot of situations. Hell, I went 11/3/xyz assists as Rengar last night and my build was Tabi/Omen/Frozen Mallet/Bonetooth Necklace

    @SweetRein: Thanks for the info. I've always taken absolute winrates with a grain of salt because I know that such things, even if 100% true are inherently inaccurate. However, I really do enjoy stats and wish that Riot would release more of them to the public, instead of us relying on obviously less accurate stats gathered by 3rd parties.

    I mean... Esports and competitive events LIVE off stats. Even in a casual market, people enjoy number crunching and I know that paying attention to my own win percentages has helped my gameplay and done a good job of pointing out what my playstyle is.

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    Default Re: League of Legends XXXVIII: Featuring Mumble, The Giant Halibut

    So, I just hit 6300 ip again. For the first time ever though, I have all the champions I WANT. All the characters I have tried and liked, or all the ones whose aesthetic I like, I already own.

    So, I ask: What should I buy?

    I own these:

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    Default Re: League of Legends XXXVIII: Featuring Mumble, The Giant Halibut

    How about a runepage?
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    Default Re: League of Legends XXXVIII: Featuring Mumble, The Giant Halibut

    Quote Originally Posted by toasty View Post
    I haven't had this experience in a long, long time (though last night I did have a rather annoying teammate who called Zach a complete noob the entire game as we quietly carried him), its a terrible thing to experience though, because tanks carry games REALLY HARD in a lot of situations. Hell, I went 11/3/xyz assists as Rengar last night and my build was Tabi/Omen/Frozen Mallet/Bonetooth Necklace
    Yeah, it's a pain. For some reason the rage only gets worse when I play a tank with any level of deadliness (see: 9/1/29 Amumu).
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    Default Re: League of Legends XXXVIII: Featuring Mumble, The Giant Halibut

    Quote Originally Posted by Cogwheel View Post
    Yeah, it's a pain. For some reason the rage only gets worse when I play a tank with any level of deadliness (see: 9/1/29 Amumu).
    They're mad cuz they're bad, tbh. Keep playing your tanks and carry yourself out of elo hell.
    Quote Originally Posted by Volatar View Post
    So, I just hit 6300 ip again. For the first time ever though, I have all the champions I WANT. All the characters I have tried and liked, or all the ones whose aesthetic I like, I already own.

    So, I ask: What should I buy?

    I own these:

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    I am lacking in a couple roles, so I could probably use champions to flesh those out.

    You own ... so few heroes...

    Buy more champions you enjoy. If you don't enjoy anyone, don't spend your IP! I had 14k IP and then I bought 2 champions in a row, it was very nice.

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    Default Re: League of Legends XXXVIII: Featuring Mumble, The Giant Halibut

    Quote Originally Posted by Chess435 View Post
    How about a runepage?
    I have all the pages I feel the need for at the moment.

    Quote Originally Posted by toasty View Post
    You own ... so few heroes...

    Buy more champions you enjoy. If you don't enjoy anyone, don't spend your IP! I had 14k IP and then I bought 2 champions in a row, it was very nice.
    That... is probably the best advice. I think I will do that.

    If riot puts out a new support soon I will probably end up buying that to maintain the "I own all the supports" title I hold.
    Quote Originally Posted by Drager0 View Post
    MY LIFE IS RUINED FOREVER AND IT'S ALL BECAUSE OF YOU, VOLATAR!!!!
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    Default Re: League of Legends XXXVIII: Featuring Mumble, The Giant Halibut

    Quote Originally Posted by Volatar View Post
    So, I just hit 6300 ip again. For the first time ever though, I have all the champions I WANT. All the characters I have tried and liked, or all the ones whose aesthetic I like, I already own.

    So, I ask: What should I buy?

    I own these:

    Spoiler
    Show


    I am lacking in a couple roles, so I could probably use champions to flesh those out.
    Do what I'm doing. Go for lines. Get as many champion lines filled out as you can, working on the the more complete lines yet.
    My own webcomic. Idiosyncrasy.
    Paladin Academy: Chapter 2 Part 28

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    Default Re: League of Legends XXXVIII: Featuring Mumble, The Giant Halibut

    You need way more champs.

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    Recent Homebrew: The Socialite | The Crystalline: Memory Altering Construct Race | Sanguine Hand, a ToB Discipline of blood and cruelty
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    Default Re: League of Legends XXXVIII: Featuring Mumble, The Giant Halibut

    Oh wow I'm on a roll, haven't died in my last 2 games as Lulu, while combining for 2/0/36!

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    ^~Cody T.~^

    "I see now that the circumstances of one's birth are irrelevant; it is what you do with the gift of life that determines who you are." - Mewtwo

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    Default Re: League of Legends XXXVIII: Featuring Mumble, The Giant Halibut

    Quote Originally Posted by Silverraptor View Post
    Do what I'm doing. Go for lines. Get as many champion lines filled out as you can, working on the the more complete lines yet.
    Lines?
    Quote Originally Posted by Drager0 View Post
    MY LIFE IS RUINED FOREVER AND IT'S ALL BECAUSE OF YOU, VOLATAR!!!!
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