What's with the american fetish for kosher salt?

[Peelee]

Pubs aren't bars.

In America, they are. Which was kind of the point I was making. Which you yourself seem to understand:

Except ya know, if you're in the U.K.

Exactly.

[Razade]

In America, they are.

I mean....that's not true either...as a bartender, I've worked in pubs that are fashioned after the U.K style and I've worked in bars. They're not the same "In America". Hell, they're not the same in Ohio or Arizona or Colorado where I've worked. Pubs in Phoenix sell food. Bars in Phoenix don't. Pubs and bars aren't the same thing state to state so they're certainly not the same thing whole-country'round.

Which was kind of the point I was making. Which you yourself seem to understand:

Exactly.

Yeah...except that I'm pretty sure Anonymouswizard was talking about the U.K. So ya know. He would (or she) order food at a pub and call them prawns so you going "yeah but not in AMERICA" just...comes off a tad jingoistic.

[Peelee]

Yeah...except that I'm pretty sure Anonymouswizard was talking about the U.K. So ya know. He would (or she) order food at a pub and call them prawns so you going "yeah but not in AMERICA" just...comes off a tad jingoistic.

If he said, "you don't walk into a restaurant and order an eggplant parmesan," my response would have been along the same lines. Yes, in UK you don't, but in US you do. When he's mentioning what Americans call things, it's not unfair to point that that yes, they are indeed called that in America.

[Anonymouswizard]

Also, I recently discovered that Prawn Cocktail is a fairly common crisp flavor over there? Which, well, blech.

Yeah, it's got a somewhat tangy sweet taste compared to most flavours, very distinctive because it's modeled after the sauce, not the prawns/shrimp.

Id wager a lot of that is in the editing more than any actual difference in behavior for him. The American team chooses to emphasize the shouting and drama, because we have bad taste when it comes to reality TV over here.

Sure, note that they also decided to note have Gordon narrate, which I think is a shame.

First off, you're right, you don't walk into a pub and order a shrimp cocktail. I'd be terrified of anyone who did. Bars serve drinks, not food.

A pub isn't a bar. If you went into a pub that didn't serve food here it would be considered really weird. Sure, they might not serve food during the evening, but there's a specific type of food considered 'pub grub' here (generally high in fat and served with chips), and many pubs will do a Sunday roast as well, there's a great pub for both beer and roasts about twenty minutes walk from my current residence.

I agree that a bar selling food (barring bar snacks) would be weird, but a pub is more than the bar. Sure, generally when I'm in a pub it's just for drinks and maybe a bowl of chips, but I've eaten full meals in them at least once a year.

My university was located about three minutes away from a pub that served sushi. It was considered a bit weird, but was a popular spot because the sushi was good and the beer was significantly better than the union bar (which was also significantly more noisy), it wasn't uncommon for me to be down there with debate society as we continued a debate until we were kicked out, with members occasionally ordering sushi if they remembered to budget for it.

Anyway, my point is, if somebody from the UK talks about a pub they're very much not talking about an American bar. There's a very distinct group of people who'll say the words 'I don't like bars, but I like pubs' and everybody in the UK will get exactly what they mean. Bars are considered places where you go entirely to get sloshed, a pub is somewhere where you know the landlord and barman, go to hang out with friends or for a Sunday roast, and is the focal point of at least three communities. Sure, people do get gazebooed in pubs, but that's not the point of them.

Second, if I ordered a meal advertised with prawns and I got shrimp, I would be mildly upset. Prawns aren't shrimp. Shrimp aren't prawns.

As has been said, scientifically it's a distinction without a difference.

Anyway, this all started off from what was essentially two jokes about how I find some US names for stuff weird for no good reason (the only reason being 'that's not what I'm used to').

[Rynjin]

I've never been in a bar that doesn't serve SOME kind of food. Usually it's cheap easy to prepare food like quesadillas and cuban sandwiches, and it usually sucks, but it's there.

I only go to bars to shoot pool though so maybe there's an overlap there.

[Peelee]

As has been said, scientifically it's a distinction without a difference.

Anyway, this all started off from what was essentially two jokes about how I find some US names for stuff weird for no good reason (the only reason being 'that's not what I'm used to').

Scientifically there's little difference, absolutely. In America, prawns are generally much larger than shrimp. I honestly don't know if it's a purely marketing thing, or if they actually serve biological prawns vs biological shrimp, but it's been pretty consistent in my experience.

Also, if we're joking around about countries naming things weirdly for no good reason... is that a thing you really want to start, being from the UK and all?

Also, I rarely go to bars, so I'll totally cop to being wrong on that front. The few I've been to have had no food whatsoever (they may have had beer nuts or something, but i dunno. Never was brave enough to ask).

[Algeh]

On bars serving food: in the USA, this can also be a state-to-state difference because of local laws.

Some states have laws requiring food sales at drinking establishments. In my state historically (it wouldn't surprise me if this has changed within the last 10-20 years as craft brewing and wineries both became a bigger part of the state economy, or if it does change in the future for the same reason) our liquor control commission had a rule that in order to get an on-premises liquor license you had to serve a certain amount of hot food. If I remember correctly, you could either prove this by listing your menu (which had to have a certain amount of specifically hot food options) or by showing that a certain percentage of your total sales (or possibly profits, I have no idea) were from the sale of food, in which case they really no longer cared what your menu was since you were clearly selling food and making it work.

I remember a local dive bar that pretty much specialized in microwaved frozen pizza and similar "tv dinner" items to meet this requirement. If you actually wanted food, you probably were eating at a different restaurant or bar down the street. (They have since remodeled to have about 20 taps rather than 6 and a fancy hot dog menu instead of frozen pizza. I still don't go there if I actually want food, but perhaps other people do.)

My state tends to have these sorts of "but you have to serve food to do that" rules, which is also why we have "lottery delis" and other oddities. (I've been told that at least one of our strip clubs has food good enough that it has a takeout window for people who want the food without the nudity, but it's a steak place and I'm a vegetarian so I've never bothered to follow up on that.)

[Peelee]

On bars serving food: in the USA, this can also be a state-to-state difference because of local laws.

That makes sense. Alabama is weird when it comes to laws and alcohol.

[Lord Joeltion]

"Preserving their cuisine from outside influences" isn't even a thing. No culture, at any time or anywhere, has done that. Hell, what you consider "European" or even "Indian" food wouldn't even exist without the deviations you cite. Tomatoes in anything outside of Mexican food (itself heavily influenced by...not Mexican food). Nope. Those were an American thing. How about anything spicy? All those curries people like because of the heat? Guess what. Wouldn't exist without mixing of cultural food and foods not native to your area. Hot peppers didn't exist outside of the America's until the Spanish took them back to Europe. Hungarian Goulash? Nope, not something that existed before the 1500's.

On the other side of the spectrum, there are also newborn foods that spawn by importing the recipe rather than the ingredient(s). I think that constitutes most of the "local" N/S American food (either continent) that was created after the Colonies. In my country we have a "curry" (rather, a "gravy") that is used as seasoning for barbecues and meats in general. Story goes a foreign Englishman wanted to add some seasoning to his meat, but being no real "curry" at hand, he prepared a mixture with what was grown by the locals. Funny thing is: none of the ingredients were actually Indian or from Indian cuisine (unless you count garlic as particularly Indian). Or American, for that matter. I think a lot of my country's cuisine is actually typical Italian/Spanish foods radically changed because of ingredient constraints.

First off, you're right, you don't walk into a pub and order a shrimp cocktail. I'd be terrified of anyone who did. Bars serve drinks, not food.

I thought the broader definition was that pubs usually served foods while bars do not

I was told that in UK (or maybe just England), a "real pub" had something to do with brewing your own mead; but I'm not sure how much of that info was part of a prank/sellout. It was a guy impersonating Robin Hood so...

[Keltest]

Most bars in America will sell food of some kind. It wont necessarily be good food, just something to help soak up the alcohol a bit to decrease the likelihood of somebody hurting themselves. I don't think anybody actually goes to a bar for food unless they also specifically advertise themselves as a restaurant of some kind (a local establishment calls it self "The Arena Bar and Grill", for example)

[Lord Joeltion]

Most bars in America will sell food of some kind. It wont necessarily be good food, just something to help soak up the alcohol a bit to decrease the likelihood of somebody hurting themselves. I don't think anybody actually goes to a bar for food unless they also specifically advertise themselves as a restaurant of some kind (a local establishment calls it self "The Arena Bar and Grill", for example)

By "food" I was meaning a cooked meal, not just anything you can eat. I wouldn't expect to find nuggets in a bar, but I would expect to find some fry food on a pub; for instance. Olives, chips, peanuts, crackers, all those I would expect to be found on either of them.

[Razade]

By "food" I was meaning a cooked meal, not just anything you can eat. I wouldn't expect to find nuggets in a bar, but I would expect to find some fry food on a pub; for instance. Olives, chips, peanuts, crackers, all those I would expect to be found on either of them.

"Nuggets" is exactly what you'd expect to find in a bar to be honest. At least in the states. Something quick and greasy and easy to cook.

[Maelstrom]

I was told that in UK (or maybe just England), a "real pub" had something to do with brewing your own mead; but I'm not sure how much of that info was part of a prank/sellout. It was a guy impersonating Robin Hood so...

Heh, not mead but Ale ;)

[ve4grm]

Yeah, it's got a somewhat tangy sweet taste compared to most flavours, very distinctive because it's modeled after the sauce, not the prawns/shrimp.

That's far less disgusting sounding, thanks.

Though I shouldn't talk. Canada is the country that looked at the Bloody Mary (drink) and said "You know what would make this great? Clams!"
(The Caesar, essentially a Bloody Mary made with Clamato juice.)

A pub isn't a bar. If you went into a pub that didn't serve food here it would be considered really weird. Sure, they might not serve food during the evening, but there's a specific type of food considered 'pub grub' here (generally high in fat and served with chips), and many pubs will do a Sunday roast as well, there's a great pub for both beer and roasts about twenty minutes walk from my current residence.

I agree that a bar selling food (barring bar snacks) would be weird, but a pub is more than the bar. Sure, generally when I'm in a pub it's just for drinks and maybe a bowl of chips, but I've eaten full meals in them at least once a year.

We have a fair number of British-/Irish-style pubs in Canada. I have one within a 5 minute walk from work which I get lunch at regularly, generally without getting any alcohol.

[thorgrim29]

That's far less disgusting sounding, thanks.

Though I shouldn't talk. Canada is the country that looked at the Bloody Mary (drink) and said "You know what would make this great? Clams!"
(The Caesar, essentially a Bloody Mary made with Clamato juice.)

And then adding a five course meal on top of the thing in trendy places. I've seen ones with steak skewers, bacon, a crab claw and leg, nordic shrimp and an oyster on top.

[ve4grm]

And then adding a five course meal on top of the thing in trendy places. I've seen ones with steak skewers, bacon, a crab claw and leg, nordic shrimp and an oyster on top.

I've seen one with a literal full bacon cheeseburger, skewered and sat on top of the glass.

...actually that might have been a Bloody Mary? It was an image online, so I can't be sure.

[Lord Joeltion]

Heh, not mead but Ale ;)

Yeah, my bad. Belgium changed my beer preferences a lot. Once you learn about honey beer, you never go back

[Knaight]

Baator, the name 'eggplant' sounds weird to me, because I've been calling it an aubergine all my life. Maybe it's because over here we still have some more language stolen from the old enemy (what, you thought those wars were about land or nobility? We just realised they have better food and language than us).

This also explains the colonization of India, with absurd national pride being what causes moronic statements like "India invented curry; Britain perfected it" to be made after the fact.

In America, they are. Which was kind of the point I was making. Which you yourself seem to understand:

I'm in Colorado, which is a bit of a microbrewery capital (a significant fraction of the bars in town are actually the tasting rooms of breweries), and it's pretty common for bars to have food. If the term "pub" is used it goes from pretty common to effectively guaranteed.

I'm guessing that this is a case where Colorado and Alabama culture diverge. By which I mean it's one of many cases where Colorado just has a better culture than Alabama.

By "food" I was meaning a cooked meal, not just anything you can eat. I wouldn't expect to find nuggets in a bar, but I would expect to find some fry food on a pub; for instance. Olives, chips, peanuts, crackers, all those I would expect to be found on either of them.

I wouldn't necessarily expect to find nuggets in a bar (where they're fairly standard for a pub) but it wouldn't be surprising. Sticking to good food within a close biking radius at bars for me there's burgers, chicken strips, fish & chips, sandwiches, nachos, salads, onion rings, fries, chili, and most notably some really good empanadas.

[Peelee]

I'm guessing that this is a case where Colorado and Alabama culture diverge. By which I mean it's one of many cases where Colorado just has a better culture than Alabama.

Look, you may have "culture," and "style," and "a functioning economy," but we, sir, have excellent sweet tea.

Also a NASA center that built the moon rocket and world class medical research facilities that is on the cusp of curing diabetes. What now, Mr. Air Force Academy?

[The Fury]

I've been told that when baking challah, you need to use Kosher salt or the dough won't rise. I can't bake yeast breads to save my life though, so I have no idea if this is true or not. For my own part, I prefer sea salt.

I've never been in a bar that doesn't serve SOME kind of food. Usually it's cheap easy to prepare food like quesadillas and cuban sandwiches, and it usually sucks, but it's there.

I only go to bars to shoot pool though so maybe there's an overlap there.

Though sometimes there's the odd dive that actually serves really good pub burgers!

[Lord Joeltion]

Also a NASA center that built the moon rocket and world class medical research facilities that is on the cusp of curing diabetes. What now, Mr. Air Force Academy?

But you will never top Gun.
Wait, that's California... dammit.

I've been told that when baking challah, you need to use Kosher salt or the dough won't rise. I can't bake yeast breads to save my life though, so I have no idea if this is true or not. For my own part, I prefer sea salt.

Which is odd, because any salt prevents yeast from growing (but only when it's too much). Maybe it needs to be kosher because it's a kosher bread, so we need to keep ethnic purity? Is your yeast racist?

[The Fury]

Which is odd, because any salt prevents yeast from growing (but only when it's too much). Maybe it needs to be kosher because it's a kosher bread, so we need to keep ethnic purity? Is your yeast racist?

Y'know, for the longest time I just assumed that I was just bad a baking yeast breads. (I find pies a lot easier.) I guess it turns out that I can't bake yeast breads because yeast is racist.

In honesty though, I don't know why it works like that or even if it works like that. I learned that when someone from a local culinary school told me. If I were able to get the hang of yeast breads in general, and challah in particular, I might be able to offer some concrete proof on this.

[WarKitty]

I've been told that when baking challah, you need to use Kosher salt or the dough won't rise. I can't bake yeast breads to save my life though, so I have no idea if this is true or not. For my own part, I prefer sea salt.



Though sometimes there's the odd dive that actually serves really good pub burgers!

Pizza's a common one too.

[The Fury]

Pizza's a common one too.

True, though I still haven't found a bar that serves surprisingly really good pizza. I don't doubt that there is one out there somewhere.

[factotum]

This also explains the colonization of India, with absurd national pride being what causes moronic statements like "India invented curry; Britain perfected it" to be made after the fact.

Who on earth says that? The only Indian curry that was definitely invented in Britain is chicken tikka masala, as far as I know, and that stuff can take a long jump off a short pier as far as I'm concerned--it's absolutely revolting. Give me a decent madras or bhuna any day.

[Algeh]

I've been told that when baking challah, you need to use Kosher salt or the dough won't rise. I can't bake yeast breads to save my life though, so I have no idea if this is true or not. For my own part, I prefer sea salt.

This is not true. Back when I was in grad school, I used to make challah whenever I had too many eggs, and it rose just fine with regular table salt. I've always had pretty good luck with most kinds of baking, though.

My understanding is that Kosher salt is called that because the larger grains make it better for some part of the Kosher-mandated butchering or meat-handling process, which involves salt in some way. I am a non-Jewish vegetarian, so I don't know a whole lot about the various Kosher meat rules beyond knowing that it's a thing and where to go around here to buy it, but there are a specific set of things that need to happen or not happen during processing for meat to be considered Kosher.

[WarKitty]

This is not true. Back when I was in grad school, I used to make challah whenever I had too many eggs, and it rose just fine with regular table salt. I've always had pretty good luck with most kinds of baking, though.

My understanding is that Kosher salt is called that because the larger grains make it better for some part of the Kosher-mandated butchering or meat-handling process, which involves salt in some way. I am a non-Jewish vegetarian, so I don't know a whole lot about the various Kosher meat rules beyond knowing that it's a thing and where to go around here to buy it, but there are a specific set of things that need to happen or not happen during processing for meat to be considered Kosher.

The tl;dr is that kosher meat has to have the blood removed. This is performed by salting the meat. Larger crystals are preferred so they stay on the surface of the meat.

[Lord Joeltion]

Y'know, for the longest time I just assumed that I was just bad a baking yeast breads. (I find pies a lot easier.) I guess it turns out that I can't bake yeast breads because yeast is racist.

In honesty though, I don't know why it works like that or even if it works like that. I learned that when someone from a local culinary school told me. If I were able to get the hang of yeast breads in general, and challah in particular, I might be able to offer some concrete proof on this.

Maybe it's just a preference for the larger salt drops. Other than that, I don't think there's anything chemical in common salt that would affect the yeast. Or the flavour/texture of any bread in general

AFIK, the variables for making a nice fluffy dough (of any kind) is threefold:
-Temperature (using water too hot would kill the yeast, water too cold would slow the process a lot)
-Seasoning (as I said, too much salt kills the yeast; certain spices -and sugar- promote its growth rate somewhat)
-Storage (in a warm enclosed space is always better; dough is basically a petri dish for yeast)
There's really not much more to it.

[Honest Tiefling]

It could also be a matter of application. From what I understand, you really don't want iodine in salt meant for pickling or brining because it'll taste all weird. I couldn't honestly tell you if there is a difference between table salt and sea/kosher salt, but some people have claimed to not like table salt for that chemical taste. Others just like the big ol' flakes of salt. That being said, Iodine is a very necessary supplement. Please eat it somewhere.

But my main point was why does that seem to be an american thing? I looked around on food sites from different countries. Jamie Oliver and Gordon Ransay use sea salt, french websites just say salt and sometimes finish with fleur de sel (which is amazing on grilled meats and stews btw), same for Ricardo, who is THE food guy here in quebec. If I spoke more languages then english and french I'd look at other cultures too.

I don't know if this is true in other places, but in the states sea salt also lacks iodine. Sea salt also can come in bigger flakes that are sometimes like the kosher salt so the difference is really rather moot in the states.

[Lord Joeltion]

It could also be a matter of application. From what I understand, you really don't want iodine in salt meant for pickling or brining because it'll taste all weird. I couldn't honestly tell you if there is a difference between table salt and sea/kosher salt, but some people have claimed to not like table salt for that chemical taste. Others just like the big ol' flakes of salt. That being said, Iodine is a very necessary supplement. Please eat it somewhere.

But isn't iodine also harmful when consumed in greater quantities than "normal"? If so, I think the not pickling/brining case also makes a lot more sense (since the concentration is considerably greater). At least in my family, we only use table salt for regular salting, but prefer the more "pure" kinds for anything that requires a greater quantity, mostly to avoid the additives (and bc of the taste maybe, but there's always the concern for health too). AFIK, you don't need that much daily Iodine anyway (but it is true that regular food doesn't naturally contain enough iodine).