OOTS #1177 - The Discussion Thread

[Sutremaine]

Also, Loki's motivations for The Bet are the worst of the various theroies I'd entertained: just for the lulz, no attempt to teach Hel a lesson (however ugly the means chosen), no long term plan to keep a dangerous loose-cannon in check. Just classic "Loki's an ass for no real reason." (Not a criticism of the writing, just an observation of the character.)

Teach her a lesson for what?

[Fyraltari]

...I'm totally sigging this.

I aim to please.

[factotum]

Telling the truth and being honest are not the same thing.

I just went and looked up the definition of "honest" on dictionary.com, and not one of the definitions of the word directly involved "truth". Closest was probably the first definition, "honorable in principles, intentions and actions; upright and fair", but Loki not being any of that definitely doesn't preclude him lying or telling the truth as suits his purposes. Problem is, the listener has no way of knowing what things he's saying are truth and which are lies, so they have to assume it's all lies unless proven otherwise.

It's definitely in character for Loki to be blaming Thor for something that's his own fault, though. He was the one who set up the Bet, presumably on the assumption that Chaotic Thor wouldn't be able to mould the dwarves into the rigidly honour-bound society they became, and now Thor has been very successful at that and it's endangering Hel's life, suddenly it's Thor's issue. Still don't quite understand why he can't just call off the bet if it's going to cause issues, but I guess it's a bit too late for that to help--Hel isn't suddenly going to get the legions of living clerics and worshippers she needs to survive the interregnum if the world is destroyed in the next few days.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I love Loki’s sense of pride in Hel for her plan. Very relieved, however, that he’s willing to put destroying the Snarl first (even though we conformation it’s not impossible for Hel to perish before the next world). It’s definitely an interesting twist for Thor to now really need Durkon to come through.

Also, thanks to the Giant for both the strip and the helpful answers in this thread!

[gatemansgc]

dang, was totally not expecting that from loki. though honestly i should have, cause he's LOKI.

but um, he just helped take away a century of dwarf souls from her? so he removed a century of fuel from her...

[Windscion]

No, Loki never actually bothered challenging. He just wanted an excuse to stay and prevent her from cheating.
Thor got one year's worth, which is minor, and nothing compared to the potential windfall she hopes for.

[137beth]

Wow, Loki's actions now make a lot more sense. The people who speculated that Loki made the bet to help Hel gain more power were right.

[locksmith of lo]

Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
Last panel. Neutral Evil is fotti g for a goddess of death, and disease.

Who's fotti g? Is she the Italian Cardi B?

can someone please answer this, because i am stumped as to what a "fotti g" is?

[Dion]

Teach her a lesson for what?

Also, have you ever seen a parent who does something unspeakably terrible to their child to “teach them a lesson”?

It’s literally worse than “for the lulz”, because the sick bastard parents actually try to convince the child they deserved the awful thing.

Yeah, “teaching someone a lesson” is the worse kind of evil, generally. I’m glad Loki is isn’t THAT evil.

[Emanick]

can someone please answer this, because i am stumped as to what a "fotti g" is?

‘Fitting,’ I assume.

[Resileaf]

Wow, Loki's actions now make a lot more sense. The people who speculated that Loki made the bet to help Hel gain more power were right.

No, they were wrong, Loki specifically states that he made the bet to make things interesting in this world. He's impressed by Hel using that bet to make a bid to become stronger for the next world, but he didn't plan for that to happen.

[Messenger]

Been thinking about how OotS' deities are shaped by the beliefs of their followers specific to Loki here. I was pondering, "But the point of any liar is NOT that they can't tell the truth but that they're willing to lie as as much as they're capable of speaking the truth where it will gain them some advantage or benefit- which is exactly Loki's philosophy of "Do whatever's best for you."

But where Loki has thus gained a reputation for lying and trickery, people assume that he's completely incapable of being honest rather than the more advantageous and more complex trait of saying whatever will benefit him. So now he actually can't be honest. Thus what was supposed to give Loki power over others is now a burden and hindrance to him even on a metaphysical level.

In short, he got what the lying shepherd from "The Boy Who Cried Wolf", but in spades.

This all makes me wonder how much power OotS gods actually have if, in the end, they are bound by the mortals (or the belief of mortals) they rule over.

[Pax_Chi]

You know, this also explains another aspect of the Thor / Loki dynamic, namely why Loki hangs around with Thor so much despite their vastly different personalities, alignments and so forth.

Thor is literally the only person Loki can have an honest conversation with.

[Peelee]

‘Fitting,’ I assume.

Ayep. Phone didn't like that word, it seemed.

[Fyraltari]

This, exactly.

Well, this is going into my signature.

It's definitely in character for Loki to be blaming Thor for something that's his own fault, though.

He's not. He is "motivating" Thor.

Still don't quite understand why he can't just call off the bet if it's going to cause issues.

There's a good chanve it is baked into the metaphysics of this world and thus cannot be called out without destroying the world which would be counterproductive.

---

Also I just realized, if many gods share Loki's lack of appreciation for the world and if Thor's plan works, they might decide to blow it up later down the line once the Dark One is well-fed enough to survive the interorbis and build a new prison for the Snarl, one more to their collective liking.

Also Loki is willing to sacrifice Hel to cage the Snarl, that's cold.

Also, also I wonder where they are both headed.

[Grey Watcher]

Teach her a lesson for what?

That was one of the details that had yet to be revealed (at least until the entire theory was jossed), but to paraphrase another post I read from sometime back, this all might have been an elaborate "Eat your vegetables"-type lesson.

[JT]

But the broader question is, "If the gods created the world, what created the gods?", or "What was there before the world, and how could nothing lead to something?". This thing with belief is just a spin on it.

In the beginning, there was a cow and a salt lick.
The salt, saliva, and warm breath from the cow gave rise to the gods, and to all the worlds.

Simple. (and stop looking at that cow!)

[RatElemental]

I do have to wonder, if the snarl is sealed away for good and this world goes on forever, wouldn't Hel die anyway? I mean if she went from "able to make it between worlds" to "maybe not able to make it between worlds" I don't see her position improving if the status quo goes on forever.

[Sutremaine]

Yeah, “teaching someone a lesson” is the worse kind of evil, generally. I’m glad Loki is isn’t THAT evil.

I'm aware of the connotations of 'teaching someone a lesson', yes. My question was "why do that?". Loki is aware that the gods each have their own personality bounds. They are shaped by what mortals believe of them, and while they might have their individual thoughts on that shaping they can't really change that. There's no direct evidence in-comic for gods being bound to a realm, portfolio, or area in the alignment chart, but I feel that is the case.

A really Evil or vindictive god might frame their acts against another god as teaching them a lesson, but I think they'd know enough about the nature of godhood to be aware that it was a convenient label for their real motives.

[JT]

can someone please answer this, because i am stumped as to what a "fotti g" is?

“fitting”

Auto-corrupt is not your fiend.

[Fyraltari]

I do have to wonder, if the snarl is sealed away for good and this world goes on forever, wouldn't Hel die anyway? I mean if she went from "able to make it between worlds" to "maybe not able to make it between worlds" I don't see her position improving if the status quo goes on forever.

Yes, Loki is throwing her under the bus here.

[D.One]

One interesting thing about Loki's words about how the gods work:

They serve to confirm something about Dvalin. It's not just that he want to follow procedure and ask the council what to do. It's not that he chose to adhere to whatever the council votes within procedure. It's just that he can't do otherwise.

[Jasdoif]

I do have to wonder, if the snarl is sealed away for good and this world goes on forever, wouldn't Hel die anyway? I mean if she went from "able to make it between worlds" to "maybe not able to make it between worlds" I don't see her position improving if the status quo goes on forever.

I suppose it would depend on the population growth of dwarves and how many more years' worth of souls she cedes.

[Rrmcklin]

I do have to wonder, if the snarl is sealed away for good and this world goes on forever, wouldn't Hel die anyway? I mean if she went from "able to make it between worlds" to "maybe not able to make it between worlds" I don't see her position improving if the status quo goes on forever.

She wouldn't be in good shape, but I don't see why she'd die. With the status quo she's still getting something even if it's not the most balanced diet. What Thor and Loki were talking about is her not being able to last during a period when she's getting literally nothing.

[D.One]

She wouldn't be in good shape, but I don't see why she'd die. With the status quo she's still getting something even if it's not the most balanced diet. What Thor and Loki were talking about is her not being able to last during a period when she's getting literally nothing.

I wonder if it's possible for a god to share some of his energies with another, if Loki could (if his ethos permited so) share some worship and soulpower with Hel in order to save her.

[RatElemental]

I wonder if it's possible for a god to share some of his energies with another, if Loki could (if his ethos permited so) share some worship and soulpower with Hel in order to save her.

If that were possible I expect the gods would have thought of that as a way to help the dark one through the interim period.

[Fyraltari]

If that were possible I expect the gods would have thought of that as a way to help the dark one through the interim period.

Problem is TDO doesn't want anything to do with the old gods and doesn't know how long the Snarl's rampages usually are, nor would he believe them if they told him.

[KorvinStarmast]

I want to say that threatening Thor over what is essentially his own fault is unreasonable, but I guess that's why he has followers like Hilgya.

She is a good and faithful servant, eh?
{:LokiFace:} I want to be mad, but her faith in my teachings is just so pure!

I do find it fascinating that Loki is actually incapable of telling the truth though. In a way, he's just as psychologically crippled as Odin. I'm reminded of Haley during her breakdown, and a little of Ian. You are what you eat indeed.

That seems to be a consistent theme.

[Worldsong]

Problem is TDO doesn't want anything to do with the old gods and doesn't know how long the Snarl's rampages usually are, nor would he believe them if they told him.

Also he's got a unique quiddity so even if it worked with fellow pantheon members he'd still uniquely be incapable of receiving aid in such a manner.

[Schroeswald]

Problem is TDO doesn't want anything to do with the old gods and doesn't know how long the Snarl's rampages usually are, nor would he believe them if they told him.

I think that Loki and TDO’s relationship is much more interesting with this revelation, Loki was probably dodgy about his plan to Rat and the other Evil gods so it’s easy to spill the beans, and he couldn’t bring himself to be honest with the Dark One, which might be when he realized he couldn’t be honest at all.