Naruto V: Eye See Your Sharingan and Raise You a Rinnegan

[INoKnowNames]

Spoiler

Show

The Leaf Jonin that fought against the Sound Four are not unnamed characters they do have names (links are to narutopedia)

Genma Shiranui

Raidō Namiashi

Note both of these characters are not real jonin but instead special jonin or charcters that are only jonin level in one technique. In other words they are no stronger on average than Ebisu who is the special jonin who is Konohamaru's tutor.

Raidō Namiashi is seen standing next to the third hokage during the chunnin exams. In the manga we do not see him defeated (during the smoke cloud event when the attack starts) but it obvious he had to be defeated for the story to continue. In the anime we see him hit by three kunai, these kunai were either launched by the sound four or orochimaru himself (it couldn't have been the sand ninja that were near orochimaru for the anbu had already took them out.)

Now both Genma and Raido were both the fourth and fifth hokage bodyguards. Them and a third person (who is scene but never given a name) know the Flying Thundergod Technique but they need 3 people to perform it.

So pretty much 4 Orochimaru bodyguards are barely superior than 2 Fourth Hokage bodyguards

.

I'll be quite honest, I wouldn't have remembered them if it wasn't for the link. And heck, with the Flying Thundergod Technique being the only advanced jutsu they know, they're hardly better than a Chunin...

The sound squad were tired, though clearly not that tired, they didnt have the standard signs of anime exhaustion, ie dirt smudges and deep breathing.

What exactly were the Sound 4 tired from? They briefly trolled Sauce Boss, then dispatched the Gimp Squad without seeming to give much of a ****, before having to deal with Naruto's squad.

The elite named were the retrieval squad lead by shikamaru. Meaning main caste characters, who by virtue of BEING main caste are more powerful than average.

It's funny how that time has long since past....

But even beyond genre conventions, think about this realistically. These guys are supposed to be bodyguards for orochimaru. He counted on them being good enough to hold off any anbu squads that would try to break up his fight with the sandaime. These guys are supposed to be GOOD. By all rights, trump cards or not, those genin should have gotten a mud hole stomped in their butts.

Actually, Orochimaru only seemed to use them in the Hokage Fight for that Incredibly Rigged Barrier. And considering how most of the Anbu seemed to get trolled in the battle between the leaf and sand + sound, they don't seem too special, either.

Kiba - God this one was dumb. Kiba is what, a couple months removed from being beaten up by a chakra disrupted naruto? He got taken down by a &^%$^% FART! Suddenly he has improved to the point where he can push this elite siamese twin guard to the limit? Yeah he would have been killed in the end, but still, he pushed this guy and his brother to their highest limits of power and skill. And this is a genin that got his ass kicked in the second round of the chunin exams.

If Kiba pulled off the Double Headed Wolf Cerberus Missile Attack in that part of the chunin exams, Naruto would have gotten his ass -raped-. Plus, Sakon and Ukon powered up on their own choice, not because they needed to against Kiba and Akamaru. The Wolves didn't push the Twins to their limit at all. It was really only a pair of tricks that even kept Kiba in the running after they ran into the Brick Wall No Jutsu.

Neji- He is fighting a guy that by all rights outranks him, and is fighting in nejis weakest area. Ranged combat. What part of curb stomp does he not get here? Neji had only one real ace here. His jyuken could disrupt those webs. Woopty do. They did a damn poor job of disrupting those giant honking arrows. Neji should have been crushed.

He should have been. Had Kidomaru kept up his regular attack, and not decided to toy with him while using the -one- attack that links back to him, and thus gives Neji a chance to win, Kidomaru would have won. But, he was stupid, and turned a sure win into a loss. That was his own damn fault for being retard.

You may say, "Thats not fair! Kimmimaru was also so damn strong the sound 4 were terrified of him!" And thats true, he also was fighting a way harder opponent, and inf act first had to waste time with naruto, and lee was no slouch, though relatively ineffective. I wouldnt expect the sound 4 to be able to stomp jinchuriki, but they should at least be able to handle 1-2 GENIN!

I don't know why, but your point gets kinda lost... or at least I stoped understanding what this paragraph means...

Iirc, those were the sound 4 in disguise. It was like one of those cheesy kids shows where the two kids sneak out with one on the shoulders of the other in a long trench coat. When the sand guys got "cut in half" you see blurs shoot out of the halves and turn into the sound 4 in the anime.

What?

[Xondoure]

I always thought of the sound as a handful of moderate ninja Orochimaru had given curse seals to in order to make them decent pawns. Not really powerful players on the level of Kakashi or Zabuza.

[Morph Bark]

I always thought of the sound as a handful of moderate ninja Orochimaru had given curse seals to in order to make them decent pawns. Not really powerful players on the level of Kakashi or Zabuza.

Same here. I mean seriously guys, the only shinobi under Orochimaru's command that were actually powerful were Suigetsu, Juugo, Kimimaro and Sasuke. And two out of those were locked up for being uncontrollable test subjects, one didn't listen to orders and one was dying of tuberculosis or something. Sasuke, Kimimaro and Anko were the only ones given special cursed seals because they were stronger than all the other test subjects. All the others needed cursed seals to be of any real worth in combat.

[darksolitaire]

I mean seriously guys, the only shinobi under Orochimaru's command that were actually powerful were Suigetsu, Juugo, Kimimaro and Sasuke.

Spoiler

Show

Orochimaru's hidden village is still best. It's actually hidden.

[Traab]

I'll be quite honest, I wouldn't have remembered them if it wasn't for the link. And heck, with the Flying Thundergod Technique being the only advanced jutsu they know, they're hardly better than a Chunin...



What exactly were the Sound 4 tired from? They briefly trolled Sauce Boss, then dispatched the Gimp Squad without seeming to give much of a ****, before having to deal with Naruto's squad.



It's funny how that time has long since past....



Actually, Orochimaru only seemed to use them in the Hokage Fight for that Incredibly Rigged Barrier. And considering how most of the Anbu seemed to get trolled in the battle between the leaf and sand + sound, they don't seem too special, either.



If Kiba pulled off the Double Headed Wolf Cerberus Missile Attack in that part of the chunin exams, Naruto would have gotten his ass -raped-. Plus, Sakon and Ukon powered up on their own choice, not because they needed to against Kiba and Akamaru. The Wolves didn't push the Twins to their limit at all. It was really only a pair of tricks that even kept Kiba in the running after they ran into the Brick Wall No Jutsu.



He should have been. Had Kidomaru kept up his regular attack, and not decided to toy with him while using the -one- attack that links back to him, and thus gives Neji a chance to win, Kidomaru would have won. But, he was stupid, and turned a sure win into a loss. That was his own damn fault for being retard.



I don't know why, but your point gets kinda lost... or at least I stoped understanding what this paragraph means...



What?

They were tired from going curse seal level 2 apparently. They had stopped and rested for awhile, which is why shika and crew were able to catch up.

You mean the nameless guys are surviving just as well as the main caste? I dont read the manga.

True, they were there for the barrier, but im pretty sure they were constantly referred to as "his elite bodyguards" or some such thing. Point is, they arent some sort of group of genin/chunin level ninja. At least they shouldnt be.

Thats actually part of my point. In the couple months in between kiba went from boring weaksauce genin who got his ass stomped by a naruto who might as well have been fighting with an arm tied behind his back, to kickass giant 2 headed wolf monster able to deal large damage to the bad guys ultimate barrier attack and force him to pull out all the stops to beat him. It shouldnt have happened.

Yeah, because being able to channel chakra through a thread that already has chakra channeled through it so he can stop a persons heart from 100 feet away was something totally expected and should have been anticipated. Come on. It was an ass pull.

My point was, kimmimaru was the only one who fought like an actual freaking elite. He was dying on his feet before the fight even started and he still stomped naruto, lee, and had garra on the ropes, and in fact would have won if not for that damn illness finally killing him. The sound 4 however, went down like punks. They got pushed to the limits or beaten by a single genin each.

At the start of the sand sound war, the hokages guards basically cut the "sand" guards in half. However, as the halves are flying apart, you see these black blurs shoot out of them and turn into the sound 4. They were there the whole time, in disguise as only two guards. At least, thats the way I remember it, my youtube-fu is weak and I cant find a clip of it happening.

[Morph Bark]

Spoiler

Show

At first I included Kabuto as well, but he wasn't powerful, just very smart at utilising his abilities. He didn't get powerful until after he absorbed Orochimaru's DNA.

[Ramza00]

At first I included Kabuto as well, but he wasn't powerful, just very smart at utilising his abilities. He didn't get powerful until after he absorbed Orochimaru's DNA.

A Sannin would like to speak with you since said Sannin almost lost to Kabuto.

But if you follow that logic then you need to remove Suigetsu from your list. He has no big moves and only carries a big sword. His whole stick is that you can't defeat him physically you have to use elemental moves to defeat him and he will just outbrawl you with his big sword. How is that different than Kabuto who can avoid pretty much every attack (except a rasengan due to arrogance) and one hit with a chakra scapel and you are pretty much a gonner.

[Ramza00]

At the start of the sand sound war, the hokages guards basically cut the "sand" guards in half. However, as the halves are flying apart, you see these black blurs shoot out of them and turn into the sound 4. They were there the whole time, in disguise as only two guards. At least, thats the way I remember it, my youtube-fu is weak and I cant find a clip of it happening.

Naruto episode 68 in the first 5 minutes.

[Morph Bark]

A Sannin would like to speak with you since said Sannin almost lost to Kabuto.

But if you follow that logic then you need to remove Suigetsu from your list. He has no big moves and only carries a big sword. His whole stick is that you can't defeat him physically you have to use elemental moves to defeat him and he will just outbrawl you with his big sword. How is that different than Kabuto who can avoid pretty much every attack (except a rasengan due to arrogance) and one hit with a chakra scapel and you are pretty much a gonner.

Said Sannin also didn't know anything about Kabuto's fighting style, while he knew everything of hers. She was also the weakest of the Sannin, had a fighting style that Kabuto's is most effective against, and did not utilize any of her best jutsu. If she had known about his fighting style beforehand, then Kabuto would never have been in a winning position at any point during that fight. Furthermore, in the end the fact is that he straight-up lost.

Suigetsu on the other hand would be tough to defeat even if you knew his strengths and weaknesses. He's on par with some of the Seven Swordsmen of Mist and far dodgier than Kabuto, who most definitely cannot "avoid pretty much every attack". Fact is that other than Tsunade, Kabuto never was up against any shinobi of meaningful power prior to infusing himself with Orochimaru's DNA, and he had all the advantages he could have in that fight. Suigetsu on the other hand was involved in fights with much higher-leveled opponents fairly regularly, and managed to stay standing. Granted, most of those fights involved other strong shinobi as well, but considering the enemy side was very powerful at those times, that matters little.

Though, if you want to compare the two, the best way to do it would be to put both of them in each other's shoes and see how they'd do.

[DiscipleofBob]

Orochimaru's hidden village is still best. It's actually hidden.

Except it's actually less of a village and more of a secret laboratory where all the residents are subjected to horrific experiments.

[Traab]

Except it's actually less of a village and more of a secret laboratory where all the residents are subjected to horrific experiments.

Its also a wide collection of underground bases around the elemental nations. It would be like putting each clan of konoha in a different corner of the world and calling that the village hidden in the leaves.

[masterjoda99]

Said Sannin also didn't know anything about Kabuto's fighting style, while he knew everything of hers. She was also the weakest of the Sannin, had a fighting style that Kabuto's is most effective against, and did not utilize any of her best jutsu. If she had known about his fighting style beforehand, then Kabuto would never have been in a winning position at any point during that fight. Furthermore, in the end the fact is that he straight-up lost.

Don't forget she had pretty severe hemophobia at the time, where she just froze up completely at the mere sight of blood. And Kabuto had doused her in the stuff from his own veins.

[darksolitaire]

Except it's actually less of a village and more of a secret laboratory where all the residents are subjected to horrific experiments.

So, it seems that hidden village can be either hidden or village, but not both.

[Drolyt]

If I recall Orochimaru said he wasn't sure if Kabuto could defeat Kakashi (my memory may be playing tricks on me here), and that sounds about right. I'd call that pretty powerful, especially when combined with all Kabuto's additional knowledge and skills.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Wasn't it pointed out in the Chunin exams that crop that made it through the forest was on the whole considered exceptionally talented. And the final twist of the exams was that you don't rank up simply by being a badass. I dare say surviving the forest part of the test was probably the de facto competency exam. So it was pretty well established that the rookies were all capable of already fighting at a high level.

Though thinking that far back... the heck ever happened to the Sound?

I seem to remember it having a canonical country/territory it represented and the hide outs we saw were not exactly well populated so where Orochimaru got those "jonin" mooks from the invasion. Are we supposed to believe the whole of his forces were wiped out in that or something.

[Ramza00]

The hidden villages are not really hidden but more "forbidden" you are simply not allowed to walk into Konoha unless Konoha allows you to walk in. Think of it as the Forbidden City of China.

[Giegue]

Yeah, but that's understandable. Remember that the hidden ninja villages are essentially military strongholds. Ninjas are the military forces of their nation, pure and simple. Thus, it makes sense that such areas would be "forbidden" as enemy ninjas could easily be disguised as innocent civilians and the last thing you need is enemy ninjas infiltrating your ONLY military base and stealing classified secrets.

Anyway...as for the sound, I was always under the impression that Kishi just stopped caring about the rest of the sound and only cared about Oro and Kabuto after the rest of the village served it's plot purpose. I assumed we'd never know what happened to the sound, just like we will never know what happened to the hidden rain after Konan was killed because Kishi simply stopped caring about it.

On another topic...is it just me, or do you all think that Obito will, before his death, be redeemed and seal Madara as his last action in the world of the living? I mean, as far as I know Naruto and Bee don't know any powerful sealing techniques and the only way Madara can be defeated is by being sealed at this point....

[Socratov]

I see your totally not hidde village or totally hidden not village and raise you a ninja in an oragne tracksuit, ninjas with orange fluffy clouds on their robes, ninja in bright blue dress and ninja's in stark white jackets. I guess Naruto's Ninja's are different (totally not a trope variant though)

[Lord Raziere]

Yea, by now I'm pretty sure that "Hidden Village" is just a poetic name for "Ninja stronghold city", or perhaps a relic from when back when all these villages were actually hidden during maybe the First Ninja War...

[Antonok]

Anyway...as for the sound, I was always under the impression that Kishi just stopped caring about the rest of the sound and only cared about Oro and Kabuto after the rest of the village served it's plot purpose. I assumed we'd never know what happened to the sound, just like we will never know what happened to the hidden rain after Konan was killed because Kishi simply stopped caring about it.

IIRC theres a filler episode or 2 stating that the remnants of the sound village basically became bandits. (I remember a guy with a flute who lost his memory that could power up his allies with his music.)

[INoKnowNames]

I see your totally not hidde village or totally hidden not village and raise you a ninja in an oragne tracksuit, ninjas with orange fluffy clouds on their robes, ninja in bright blue dress and ninja's in stark white jackets. I guess Naruto's Ninja's are different (totally not a trope variant though)

The thing here is that we all expect Ninjas now to look like the dudes in Blac Pajamas with Masks on, climbing in your Windows and on your Roofs,hiding in the Shadows. While having such a reputation kinda kills the undercover aspect of it, the Orange Jumpsuit as civilian wear isn't necesarally all that imposing for someone trying to blend in by seeming like one of the public. And when it's time to be a real Ninja-Ninja, the color and style of the clothing doesn't matter, because even being noticed means you failed at being a Ninja.

Plus, Blatant DBZ Homage. Orange Suit? Yellow Spiky Hair? Super Forms with Energy Auras? 2 Handed Spherical Blasts of Doom? Hell, the Monkey Jinjuriki is called Son Goku; you can't play that off.

[Frozen_Feet]

... I've discussed it to hell and back before, but personal choice of clothing is absolutely irrelevant when every single ninja is taught a jutsu to transform into anything and everything. In their equivalent of elementary school.

Naruto himself has turned to, among other things, a sexy young lady, a piece of fence, a giant fox and a bunch of rocks. Two of his most successful feints included turning into a shuriken.

[Giegue]

Yeah, and Naruto is hardly the worst culprit when it comes to cloths not fit for stealth. I mean, look at Madara. Nothing says "stealthy" like flashy red bad guy armor of doom. I mean, even D&D tells you that it's a ***** to sneak in armor, and I remember reading somewhere that Madara's armor is in fact metal. You try sneaking in full, metal, samurai-style armor and NOT being heard and thus getting noticed. Madara sneaking would be the D&D equivalent of trying to use the hide and move silently skills in full plate. Yeah.

Very few ninja in Naruto are actually stealthy and very few need to be. With all their other techs their more akin to Gishes then stealth characters in D&D terms. Jutsu basically are spells, except instead of using mana or some other traditional magic energy they use chakra. Naruto's ninjas are just wizards skilled in martial arts that have an unusual source for their magic. In fact, I believe Kishi was once quoted as saying he had interest in doing a manga about wizards, but the idea fell through and he took a lot of what he wanted to do with that and injected it into Naruto. I have no idea how accurate this is, but I did hear it somewhere...

[Cen]

Hell, the Monkey Jinjuriki is called Son Goku; you can't play that off.

That's actually easy to explain - Goku is the Japanese version of 孫悟空 (Sun Wukong), the central character of 'Journey to the West' - a 16th century novel - who is a monkey.

also - Orange suits are inspired by shaloin monks - they are known from their fighting prowess and wear orange training uniforms.

[Xondoure]

That's actually easy to explain - Goku is the Japanese version of 孫悟空 (Sun Wukong), the central character of 'Journey to the West' - a 16th century novel - who is a monkey.

also - Orange suits are inspired by shaloin monks - they are known from their fighting prowess and wear orange training uniforms.

That's Toriyama's inspiration. Kishi has admitted his is Toriyama.

[Morph Bark]

See also: major comparisons between Oozaru and the Four-Tails.

[LaZodiac]

The Four Tailed Beast is even called Sun Wukong! And his host is Muton Roshii, if I recall.

[INoKnowNames]

... I've discussed it to hell and back before, but personal choice of clothing is absolutely irrelevant when every single ninja is taught a jutsu to transform into anything and everything. In their equivalent of elementary school.

Naruto himself has turned to, among other things, a sexy young lady, a piece of fence, a giant fox and a bunch of rocks. Two of his most successful feints included turning into a shuriken.

.... I must use this argument the next time someone disses the Orange Jumpsuit, because you're dead freaking right. I -must- remember this! You can wear whatever the hell you want whe you can transform into whatever the hell you want. I -must- remember this!

Yeah, and Naruto is hardly the worst culprit when it comes to cloths not fit for stealth. I mean, look at Madara. Nothing says "stealthy" like flashy red bad guy armor of doom. I mean, even D&D tells you that it's a ***** to sneak in armor, and I remember reading somewhere that Madara's armor is in fact metal. You try sneaking in full, metal, samurai-style armor and NOT being heard and thus getting noticed. Madara sneaking would be the D&D equivalent of trying to use the hide and move silently skills in full plate. Yeah.

Very few ninja in Naruto are actually stealthy and very few need to be. With all their other techs their more akin to Gishes then stealth characters in D&D terms. Jutsu basically are spells, except instead of using mana or some other traditional magic energy they use chakra. Naruto's ninjas are just wizards skilled in martial arts that have an unusual source for their magic. In fact, I believe Kishi was once quoted as saying he had interest in doing a manga about wizards, but the idea fell through and he took a lot of what he wanted to do with that and injected it into Naruto. I have no idea how accurate this is, but I did hear it somewhere...

Madara's probably got -mad- money to be able to make that armor as wearable as possible, and his Hide and Move Silently Checks are probably through the roof. The Sharingan alone is probably like an Item Familiar or something.

That's actually easy to explain - Goku is the Japanese version of 孫悟空 (Sun Wukong), the central character of 'Journey to the West' - a 16th century novel - who is a monkey.

also - Orange suits are inspired by shaloin monks - they are known from their fighting prowess and wear orange training uniforms.

... I shouldn't have decided to edit out speaking about Sun Wukong in my post...

As for him, the 3rd Hokage is a blatant reference to him. Monkey King Enma and Adamantine Yoi, anyone? Naruto, however, is blatantly a Goku expi:

Both made fatherless by a powerful villain (Bardock vs Frieza, Yondaime vs Tobito)

Both big eaters who wear orange and have yellow hair (cut me some slack about his normal state, Super Saiyan counts)

Both use powerful spherical energy attacks gathered in two hands (tell me Rasengan doesn't remind you of the Kamehameha... hell, watch the first time Naruto lands it; the way he knocks Kabuto away is -totally- Kamehameha esque).

Both started off as slightly out-of-sorts-with-the-public loners before going on, after gaining martial arts techs and training, to become the savoirs of their respective worlds (slight stretch, but it fits)

And both have powerful new forms that come with epic energy auras.

That's Toriyama's inspiration. Kishi has admitted his is Toriyama.

Yup.

See also: major comparisons between Oozaru and the Four-Tails.

I said that!

The Four Tailed Beast is even called Sun Wukong! And his host is Muton Roshii, if I recall.

Now ya'll 're just being repeditive.

[leafman]

^ You forgot one. Early in their stories they both would transform into very powerful and mostly uncontrollable beasts, then went through a period where they supressed the beast, and later gained mastery of the beast form, attaining their ultimate power*.

*Goku became a Super Saiyan Oozaru and with Pan's help gained control over the Oozaru to become a SS4 in Dragonball GT

[Ramza00]

Yeah, and Naruto is hardly the worst culprit when it comes to cloths not fit for stealth. I mean, look at Madara. Nothing says "stealthy" like flashy red bad guy armor of doom. I mean, even D&D tells you that it's a ***** to sneak in armor, and I remember reading somewhere that Madara's armor is in fact metal. You try sneaking in full, metal, samurai-style armor and NOT being heard and thus getting noticed. Madara sneaking would be the D&D equivalent of trying to use the hide and move silently skills in full plate. Yeah.

Madara does not sneak.

When the enemy sees Madara they either run or they die.