Results 1 to 30 of 97
Thread: Is Elan a child-killer?
-
2011-03-04, 08:26 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2006
- Location
- Raleigh NC
- Gender
Is Elan a child-killer?
Note I said killer , not murderer. There is a reason for that, which I will explain below.
Anyone remember the good goblin children ?
As far as I can tell, of all the goblins in Durkon's dungeon, there was only one survivor .
The reason those goblin children are dead is because Elan pushed the self-destruct rune.
So far as I can tell, there was no particular reason to press that rune . Elan pressed the rune for no other reason than dramatic potential.
THEREFORE, Elan sacrificed a number of innocent lives solely for the sake of dramatic potential.
FURTHER, unlike the charge of "weakening the fabric of the universe", Elan was fully aware that those children were within the dungeon. He should have known that they had no ready or obvious means of escape, yet took no steps to ensure their safety or, indeed, thought about them at all before blowing up the entire dungeon .
I must further note that Durkon was a good-aligned wizard, and that many of the rooms in the castle had been left alone by Xykon . Given the presence of the good-aligned Celia in this dungeon, it's possible that there were other good-aligned creatures in the dungeon. Elan most likely killed them all by pressing that rune. He was in the room when Celia gave that speech, should have known that, but went ahead and pushed the button anyway.
THEREFORE, I charge Elan with Criminally negligent manslaughter . It isn't murder because he didn't intend to kill those creatures -- he hasn't got a malicious bone in his body. But he still was negligent and reckless, and that negligence and recklessness resulted in the deaths of innocent children. So criminally negligent manslaughter (goblinslaughter, technically) applies.
OBJECTION: Those children were only faking it! At least one of them was really evil!
REBUTTAL: So ? killing evil children is not a good act . Per SOD. So it doesn't matter. They were children, alignment unimportant. Elan failed to consider the possible danger to their life and limb when he blew up the castle.Spoilerthat's the kind of justification the Sapphire Guard would use for THEIR actions
OBJECTION: By the power of plot, those kids all got away!
REBUTTAL: So we reduce the charge from manslaughter to Child endangerment and Reckless endangerment . Even if the power of plot magically saves the kids, Elan still had a responsibility either to ensure their safety or to demonstrate the pressing need to destroy the dungeon despite the innocent deaths it would probably cause. He did neither. Thus in this one aspect he is worse than his father, who may be a murderer and a tyrant but we've never seen him kill a child.
THEREFORE, I conclude that Elan is a menace to any and all creatures who cross his path , who get between him and dramatic potential. Since he's not malicious, I do not recommend the death sentence or prison. I do , however, recommend his confinement in some institute for the criminally insane until he can demonstrate that he has some clue how his actions harm others.
Am I wrong?
Respectfully,
Brian P.
-
2011-03-04, 08:38 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2010
- Location
- Chaos Theater
- Gender
-
2011-03-04, 08:40 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2007
Re: Is Elan a child-killer?
You make a very clear argument. I think you're right.
"I'll see you on the road!"
AntiHeroes - Not worth the banner any more.
DragonCon 2013: August 30 - September 2
-
2011-03-04, 08:45 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Sep 2010
Re: Is Elan a child-killer?
Interesting thought. I guess you are right. Elan is a danger to others. If, for example, he hadn't been there when Captain Amun-Zora attacked Tarquin, Tarquin may be dead by now, which would make the country a better place, even if only slightly.
(One could argue that the PCs need Tarquin to tell them where Girard is, but there's the chance someone else would have told them, or maybe Tarquin is only bluffing)
Also, if Haley weren't more clever than Elan, Elan would either have caused Haley's and his death, or the unnecessary death or lots of guards.
Elan should not be allowed to go anywhere without a legal guardian.
-
2011-03-04, 08:50 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2007
- Location
- Imagination Land
- Gender
Re: Is Elan a child-killer?
I propose we dismiss the case on account of the defendant being a fictional character from a webcomic.
-
2011-03-04, 08:50 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Apr 2008
- Gender
Re: Is Elan a child-killer?
Elan's dramatic senses informed him that the children and everyone else were out of the dungeons, picking mushrooms in a nearby forest. As such it was okay for him and the rest of the heroes to make a dramatic, explosive escape out of the dungeon.
There were good people on the Death Star, too, but they all managed to escape on various shuttles and escape pods right before Luke fired his torpedoes. It all makes perfect sense.
Alternatively, Elan's mother was abused by his father a bit too much, which resulted in frustration and anger which she channeled into Elan by beating him senseless whenever she got drunk off her own merchandise in the tavern.
This unhappy childhood left Elan bitter. When he saw the goblin children, he saw that their lives we're generally speaking pretty okay. From that point onward he vowed to find a way to ruin their lives in secret without being attacked by the rest of the order. In comes the self-destruct button and Elan's plan finally became crystal."What can change the nature of a man?"
__
Guybrush Threepwood avatar by Ceika
-
2011-03-04, 08:54 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2006
- Gender
-
2011-03-04, 08:54 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Apr 2007
- Location
- Lemuria
- Gender
Re: Is Elan a child-killer?
-
2011-03-04, 09:16 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2008
- Location
- The Blessed Geometry
- Gender
Re: Is Elan a child-killer?
I always thought Elan just pressed the rune because Roy ordered him to earlier. Also, it was shiny and looked important and he didn't realize it was a self-destruct rune until AFTER he pressed it.
The only thing he did solely for dramatic potential was when he asked Roy to wait with him until the very last microsecond to escape the 'splosion.
-
2011-03-04, 09:38 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2006
- Location
- Raleigh NC
- Gender
Re: Is Elan a child-killer?
I don't think so .
1) Elan saw and recognized it as a self-destruct rune.
2) Roy didnt' see it.
3) Elan went and pressed it, presumably because it's just what you do when the villain dies. I mean, why ELSE would he press it?
4) When Roy was made aware of it, he was absolutely shocked -- as was the rest of the order, though for different reasons. NO ONE wanted Elan to press that rune except Elan himself. And Elan never did give a convincing explanation for why he did what he did. Dramatic instincts, perhaps.
Please won't somebody think of the children and hang him?
Your kid could be next
Well, he's not really an *evil* guy, he just needs adult supervision. So I wouldn't hang him. We don't punish children for the horrible mistakes they make, but we don't let them wander around unattended, either.
Elan's dramatic senses informed him that the children and everyone else were out of the dungeons, picking mushrooms in a nearby forest. As such it was okay for him and the rest of the heroes to make a dramatic, explosive escape out of the dungeon.
Alternatively, Elan's mother was abused by his father a bit too much, which resulted in frustration and anger which she channeled into Elan by beating him senseless whenever she got drunk off her own merchandise in the tavern.
This unhappy childhood left Elan bitter. When he saw the goblin children, he saw that their lives we're generally speaking pretty okay. From that point onward he vowed to find a way to ruin their lives in secret without being attacked by the rest of the order. In comes the self-destruct button and Elan's plan finally became crystal.
Besides ... Elan? Bitter? ELAN??? Since when? Where? Whut? Elan as broody anti-hero? Am I reading a different comic from everyone else?
I propose we dismiss the case on account of the defendant being a fictional character from a webcomic.
Respectfully,
Brian P.Last edited by pendell; 2011-03-04 at 09:39 AM.
-
2011-03-04, 09:44 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2006
- Gender
-
2011-03-04, 10:04 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2010
- Location
- Somewhere over there ->
- Gender
-
2011-03-04, 11:11 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2008
- Gender
Re: Is Elan a child-killer?
First of all, the flumphs weren't injured in the explosion. They had already been injured by falling dwarfs. They were injured again by falling humans. The explosion per se did not hurt them.
Second, they obviously left by a different door than the OOTS. We can reasonably presume that there were emergency exits all over the dungeon.
Third, we know that the medusa in the bathroom queue survived.
It's therefore highly probable that the goblin children also escaped. And were freed from Xykon's influence too.Last edited by Ron Miel; 2011-03-04 at 11:12 AM.
.
-.____________________
./___________________()-------Ron Miel
|...___________________--------sits down
|..| |_________________()-------and starts
|..|/__________________--------singing
| ___________________()-------about gold
.
-
2011-03-04, 11:14 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2008
-
2011-03-04, 11:24 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2006
- Location
- Raleigh NC
- Gender
Re: Is Elan a child-killer?
The falling humans were debris from the explosion. So yes, they were injured by the explosion. :) It's like saying a person wasn't killed by a bomb but rather by the shards thrown about by the bomb's explosion.
It's therefore highly probable that the goblin children also escaped. And were freed from Xykon's influence too.
Erm ... we do? I looked at that second strip, and I see *A* medusa. How do you know it's the same one as the one DurUkon's mansion?
And yes, I got "Durkon" and "DorUkon" confused. Oops.
Respectfully,
Brian P.Last edited by pendell; 2011-03-04 at 11:24 AM.
-
2011-03-04, 11:24 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2010
- Location
- Lake Wobegon
- Gender
Re: Is Elan a child-killer?
Why does it matter that some of the goblins were children? The defendant should have the criminally negligent manslaughter of all the still-living goblins in the Dungeon of Dorukan added to his list of charges. They surrendered, after all.
Last edited by zimmerwald1915; 2011-03-04 at 11:24 AM.
-
2011-03-04, 11:47 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2007
Re: Is Elan a child-killer?
Wow, Elan might actually be responsible for the loss of
a lotmore innocent lives than Belkar. Take that, moralists!
All those innocent contractors hired to do a job were killed- casualties of a war they had nothing to do with. All right, look-you're a roofer, and some juicy government contract comes your way; you got the wife and kids and the two-story in suburbia-this is a government contract, which means all sorts of benefits. All of a sudden these left-wing militants blast you with lasers and wipe out everyone within a three-mile radius. You didn't ask for that. You have no personal politics. You're just trying to scrape out a living.Former Ghosts?
-
2011-03-04, 11:50 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Sep 2007
Re: Is Elan a child-killer?
No.
Elan works on the power of plot. Since the unimportant goblins weren't shown being destroyed, they weren't destroyed, they simply ceased to exist when the story stopped mentioning them.
-
2011-03-04, 11:52 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2006
- Location
- Raleigh NC
- Gender
-
2011-03-04, 11:56 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2008
- Gender
Re: Is Elan a child-killer?
Because they look exactly the same.
I'm pretty sure they are meant to be the same person. The Giant clearly copied his earlier design. If he intended them to be different characters, he could have given her different clothes, for instance.
I know he said something about how many vatiations on a stick figure are there? But with only two medusas, he could certainly show variations between them..
-.____________________
./___________________()-------Ron Miel
|...___________________--------sits down
|..| |_________________()-------and starts
|..|/__________________--------singing
| ___________________()-------about gold
.
-
2011-03-04, 11:59 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Sep 2008
Re: Is Elan a child-killer?
Um... no. It even says in the strip you've linked that they're not children. But even if they were, why are their deaths any worse than any of the other goblins the Order killed during the crawl? Because these goblins are very slightly younger than the others? Mmmkay.
Perhaps there's some big, strong, smart Lawful Good guy we can put in charge of him, in that case.
And yeah, what Ron Miel said. There's every chance Dorukan had emergency exits all over the place, otherwise it was pretty negligent of him to have such a rune in the first place.Please write all sarcasm in blue text. All metaphors should be marked in red text and for any split infinitives, please use green. Thank you.
-
2011-03-04, 12:12 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2008
- Location
- Italy
- Gender
Re: Is Elan a child-killer?
As his lawyer, I plead him not guilty because of mental defect.
Of course, he needs someone supervising over him.
So, basically, I agree with the op. Elan is a danger. Just the idea of someone with the brain of a child and the power of a level 14+ adventurer (unoptimized maybe, but still level 14+) is already fearsome enough.In memory of Evisceratus: he dreamed of a better world, but he lacked the class levels to make the dream come true.
Ridiculous monsters you won't take seriously even as they disembowel you
my take on the highly skilled professional: the specialized expert
-
2011-03-04, 12:25 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2008
- Location
- Canada
- Gender
Re: Is Elan a child-killer?
Which is why Roy needs to be broken out of prison immeditly. Because Tarquin is just spoileing Elan.
Spoiler: I'm a writer!Spoiler: Check out my fanfiction[URL="https://www.fanfiction.net/u/7493788/Forum-Explorer"here[/URL]
]Fate Stay Nano: Fate Stay Night x Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha
I Fell in Love with a Storm: MLP
Procrastination: MLP
Spoiler: Original FictionThe Lost Dragon: A story about a priest who finds a baby dragon in his church and decides to protect them.
-
2011-03-04, 12:37 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2010
- Location
- down a dark deserted road
Re: Is Elan a child-killer?
This may not be strictly canon, but in the adventure game version the rules require you to remove all of the monsters from play once Zykon is defeated, because they sensed that the dungeon is about to self destruct and leave.
"Chaos is found in greatest abundance wherever order is being sought. It always defeats order, because it is better organized."
— Terry Pratchett
-
2011-03-04, 12:49 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2010
- Gender
Re: Is Elan a child-killer?
It's no less evil either.
But the morality of a child is not easily determined, as they typically lack the capacity for true malice. Whether or not you personally believe this to be true, it is true in OotS ("We generally don't consider childhood escapades") and that is what matters where the comic is concerned.Plague Doctor by Crimmy
Ext. Sig (Handbooks/Creations)
-
2011-03-04, 12:53 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2010
Re: Is Elan a child-killer?
There wasn´t any mention of children on Azure City trial, and they even summoned the ghost of a dead goblin.
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0271.html""Jeez, this dress! i look like a dominatrix""
(self-loathing): ""Actually , you look like a sorceress or something""
""Hey, no need to get cruel""
-
2011-03-04, 12:54 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2008
- Gender
Re: Is Elan a child-killer?
.
-.____________________
./___________________()-------Ron Miel
|...___________________--------sits down
|..| |_________________()-------and starts
|..|/__________________--------singing
| ___________________()-------about gold
.
-
2011-03-04, 12:58 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2008
- Location
- Canada
- Gender
Re: Is Elan a child-killer?
but they have the teenager template which has the always evil alghinment.
Spoiler: I'm a writer!Spoiler: Check out my fanfiction[URL="https://www.fanfiction.net/u/7493788/Forum-Explorer"here[/URL]
]Fate Stay Nano: Fate Stay Night x Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha
I Fell in Love with a Storm: MLP
Procrastination: MLP
Spoiler: Original FictionThe Lost Dragon: A story about a priest who finds a baby dragon in his church and decides to protect them.
-
2011-03-04, 01:04 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Sep 2008
Re: Is Elan a child-killer?
a) They're not children, and b) yes, they had that chance, but they chose to turn on the Order for no reason other than suddenly deciding being Good was a "phase". At that point they went from being allies of the Order to being a legitimate enemy themselves.
Of all the Good characters that we know were in the dungeon when Elan touched the rune, 100% survived. Everyone that we know for sure died in the dungeon was either a legitimate threat to the Order or else they were killed by the Linear Guild or Team Evil. I don't see the problem here.
(We don't even know what happened to the goblin teenagers, anyway, but we do at least know they were deliberately working in Xykon's favour.)Last edited by Nimrod's Son; 2011-03-04 at 01:15 PM.
Please write all sarcasm in blue text. All metaphors should be marked in red text and for any split infinitives, please use green. Thank you.
-
2011-03-04, 01:09 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2008