[3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

[Togath]

How are some of the newer eidolon evolutions such as shadow body?, I was looking through the class earlier and it looked like it could be a decent defense one

[Andvare]

How are some of the newer eidolon evolutions such as shadow body?, I was looking through the class earlier and it looked like it could be a decent defense one

They are a bit expensive for defensive purposes.
If the Eidolon is hit on a 12+, 20% miss chance is worse than 2 points of extra AC (though better if the Eidolon is only hit on a natural 20 of course), but it cost twice the evolution points.
If you get both, and get total concealment then it changes a bit, as (IIRC) total concealment means that you cannot target the Eidolon with spells other than AoEs. That might be worth 4 points, though it is quite a lot, and you have to keep your Eidolon out of the bright daylight (or similar bright light effects). And 50% miss chance is quite a bit, equal to 5 AC if hit on a 11.
Of course, miss chance apply to all types of attacks that targets the AC, which makes it a bit more worthwhile.
Another problem is that Shadow Form (the one that also works in bright light) halves your damage output towards corporeal creatures, and that is, even for tank builds, a huge problem, and might make intelligent adversaries realize that the Eidolon isn't a threat. This is such a big problem that I wouldn't use Shadow Form on anything but a utility (stealth) Eidolon build, or, I suppose, if you are fighting the Wightpocalypse ;) , that is unless you got some way of negating the incorporeal damage.

Two things, though.
The Eidolon have darkvision, so if you can keep the Eidolon in perpetual darkness (like with the drow I mentioned earlier), this combo works somewhat, because you give the enemy without darkvision some problem targeting you and your allies, and keep you with 50% miss chance.
Also, Shadow Form grants concealment in all types of lightning, which is actually Hide-In-Plain-Sight in disguise, and that is a rare ability. Shadow Blend also does this, but not in daylight, where you probably need it the most.

In short, I wouldn't touch either for a defensive build. Shadow Blend is too expensive alone for what it does, and combined, your damage output is hurt too much for the benefit of not being targeted by direct spells.

They are both blue for a stealth build (with Shadow Blend being Cyan if you are in a campaign where bright light is a rare thing), but for any other build, Shadow Blend is black (depends heavily on your campaign type, as this is very light level specific) and Shadow Form is red, the damage hit is just too great.

[Barstro]

In short, I wouldn't touch either for a defensive build. Shadow Blend is too expensive alone for what it does, and combined, your damage output is hurt too much for the benefit of not being targeted by direct spells.

I agree with most of what was said. As counter argument; the 20%/50% miss chance can be very beneficial, and the lower damage is not as much of a downside, PROVIDED; you are more concerned about secondary effects (using attacks to push/pull or other battlefield control), or if the purpose of your eidolon(s) is to provide flanking.

[Sarone]

I agree with most of what was said. As counter argument; the 20%/50% miss chance can be very beneficial, and the lower damage is not as much of a downside, PROVIDED; you are more concerned about secondary effects (using attacks to push/pull or other battlefield control), or if the purpose of your eidolon(s) is to provide flanking.

Also remember Attacks of Opportunity. Concentration checks are a pain in the rear.

[Cieyrin]

If the Eidolon is hit on a 12+, 20% miss chance is worse than 2 points of extra AC (though better if the Eidolon is only hit on a natural 20 of course), but it cost twice the evolution points.

That's a vast overgeneralization of Miss Chance vs. AC. Miss Chance stays relevant regardless of the attack roll, making 1 in every 5 (or 2, in the case of 50%) attacks miss, which can't be said for 2 or 5 points of AC, which scales in usefulness varies greatly between enemies and relative level. Miss Chance is also on top of AC and applies equally against all attacks, not caring whether it's a touch attack or if you're caught unawares. It also protects you from precision damage, which is nothing to sneeze at.

As for the prevalence of bright light, I don't know about you but my adventuring parties rarely adventure exclusively on bright cloudless days and never go inside or into dense foliage or underwater, etc. Also know that Bright Light means Sunlight or the Daylight spell typically, not torches, lanterns, sunrods and Light spells, so it's not easy to produce, either. So, you may have to work at it but not being in Bright Light is not a hard thing to do.

[Togath]

If i make a summoner I may try to miss-chance and concealment evolutions then, as they sound interesting(and there is a good chance i'll be able to join a pathfinder/dnd game as a player sometime in the next few months)
edit; removed double post

[Andvare]

That's a vast overgeneralization of Miss Chance vs. AC.

Yes it is.
But a generalization that is useful in analysing the general usefulness of the evolutions.

Miss Chance stays relevant regardless of the attack roll, making 1 in every 5 (or 2, in the case of 50%) attacks miss, which can't be said for 2 or 5 points of AC, which scales in usefulness varies greatly between enemies and relative level. Miss Chance is also on top of AC and applies equally against all attacks, not caring whether it's a touch attack or if you're caught unawares. It also protects you from precision damage, which is nothing to sneeze at.

Yes, well if you actually read what I wrote, you'd see that this is either not true, missing the point completely, or me that is misinterpreting your seemingly aggressive post.

If your opponent needs a 11 or more to hit you on a d20, two more AC points equals a 20% miss chance. How so? Because of the ten points that you will hit, 20% of that is 2.
Let us make this super easy. Say you cannot miss, you will hit on every roll of the die (not possible in RAW, I know, but it doesn't matter, this is math). A 20% miss chance is just that, 20 of the time the attack will miss. This is also the case if you need a 5 or more to hit (or, in other words, have a +4 AC). If you need an 11 or more to hit (50%), 2 more in AC means exactly 20% less hit (2 out of 10), which is the exact same number as concealment miss chance. However, if you need 12 or more to hit, the 2 extra AC is more than a 20% miss chance (2 out of 9), and so is better.
Miss chance doesn't actually (statistically) apply equally to all attacks versus more AC, as the lower the AC the better the miss chance function, which is because miss chance is a straight % were as AC is an absolute number (miss chance is a % of the already existing to hit %).

It is true, however, that is lowers the hit probability of all attacks, which few types of AC boosts does (in this case, "unawares" is not one of them, because it is an increase in natural armour it is set against, but it is certainly true with touch attack in this case).

I can't seem to find anything that makes concealment sneak attack proof (which doesn't mean it isn't there ;) ), though total concealment does protects you from AoOs.

As for the prevalence of bright light, I don't know about you but my adventuring parties rarely adventure exclusively on bright cloudless days and never go inside or into dense foliage or underwater, etc. Also know that Bright Light means Sunlight or the Daylight spell typically, not torches, lanterns, sunrods and Light spells, so it's not easy to produce, either. So, you may have to work at it but not being in Bright Light is not a hard thing to do.

Again I think you missed the point and/or reading something that wasn't written, not being in bright light can be hard to do when you are already in it. And again, as stated, it depends heavily on the campaign in question.

[Andvare]

I agree with most of what was said. As counter argument; the 20%/50% miss chance can be very beneficial, and the lower damage is not as much of a downside, PROVIDED; you are more concerned about secondary effects (using attacks to push/pull or other battlefield control), or if the purpose of your eidolon(s) is to provide flanking.

Yes, they are both evolutions that can be useful in specific builds, but not generally so.
They can have their uses outside of a stealth build, but they are not on the short list of goto evolutions IMHO, as with a build focusing on battlefield control, there are more important evolutions.

But, granted, you could ignore the heavy hit to damage with a control build.


I intent to (mis)use both with my next PF character, a master summoner, where my Eidolon is based around the antagonize feat, stealth, a high AC and these two evolutions, to make it useful as a scout that can survive (with little hit points, being a master summoner and all) and annoy people in combat, so much so that they will try to hurt it.
An intimidation-antagonize "attack" against an enemy mage, by a creature with total concealment (and therefore not target-able) sounds like fun, for me, not my GM.

[Cieyrin]

If your opponent needs a 11 or more to hit you on a d20, two more AC points equals a 20% miss chance. How so? Because of the ten points that you will hit, 20% of that is 2.
Let us make this super easy. Say you cannot miss, you will hit on every roll of the die (not possible in RAW, I know, but it doesn't matter, this is math). A 20% miss chance is just that, 20 of the time the attack will miss. This is also the case if you need a 5 or more to hit (or, in other words, have a +4 AC). If you need an 11 or more to hit (50%), 2 more in AC means exactly 20% less hit (2 out of 10), which is the exact same number as concealment miss chance. However, if you need 12 or more to hit, the 2 extra AC is more than a 20% miss chance (2 out of 9), and so is better.

You can't predict that, as you don't know the stats of everything you fight. And while, yes, less AC makes more Miss Chance worth more but who strives for that? It's two defenses getting tested each time you're attacked and not to the exclusion of each other.

Miss chance doesn't actually (statistically) apply equally to all attacks versus more AC, as the lower the AC the better the miss chance function, which is because miss chance is a straight % were as AC is an absolute number (miss chance is a % of the already existing to hit %).

It is true, however, that is lowers the hit probability of all attacks, which few types of AC boosts does (in this case, "unawares" is not one of them, because it is an increase in natural armour it is set against, but it is certainly true with touch attack in this case).

The fact that it's not diminished by touch or flat-footed attacks is strength enough, especially as Eidolons don't tend to have good touch ACs.

I can't seem to find anything that makes concealment sneak attack proof (which doesn't mean it isn't there ;) ), though total concealment does protects you from AoOs.

A rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment.

Again I think you missed the point and/or reading something that wasn't written, not being in bright light can be hard to do when you are already in it. And again, as stated, it depends heavily on the campaign in question.

I'm saying that more often than not you aren't in Bright Light. The only common sources are sun light and the Daylight spell; most light sources only produce normal light, so if you're inside, underground, it's night or stormy out, you don't have to worry about the weakness involved. That's a large part of the game. If it's really concerning, the Evolutionary Surge chain can solve that detail quite handily, either providing it or boosting to full concealment. Unless you're always in sunny featureless plains, you don't have to worry about being negated all the time. It will happen at some point but it's not an overbearing weakness.

[OgreSage]

I intent to (mis)use both with my next PF character, a master summoner, where my Eidolon is based around the antagonize feat, stealth, a high AC and these two evolutions, to make it useful as a scout that can survive (with little hit points, being a master summoner and all) and annoy people in combat, so much so that they will try to hurt it.
An intimidation-antagonize "attack" against an enemy mage, by a creature with total concealment (and therefore not target-able) sounds like fun, for me, not my GM.

I like this idea a lot I just wish Antagonize could target the same person more than once per day.

I'm working on a Brownie (ARG) Master Summoner that uses its eidolon for a mount and the two scout together (using the Stealth Synergy and Escape Route teamwork feats). The Shadow evos could give it even more survivability, but of course as a MS those evo points come SLOOOOW so 4 points may not be feasible.

[Andvare]

You can't predict that, as you don't know the stats of everything you fight. And while, yes, less AC makes more Miss Chance worth more but who strives for that? It's two defenses getting tested each time you're attacked and not to the exclusion of each other.

Who is predicting what?
If you have an AC of more than ten relative to your encounters to hit in general, 20% miss chance is worse than 2 more AC points.
It is that simple.
It is not a prediction, it is an analysis on when concealment is, for a defensive build, better or worse than other options you have.

This also means that on earlier levels, miss chance is less good, as it is easier to get a high AC relative to your encounters on the lower levels.

The fact that it's not diminished by touch or flat-footed attacks is strength enough, especially as Eidolons don't tend to have good touch ACs.

Strength enough for what?
(And again, an Eidolon aren't all that hurt by being caught unaware, as you point out, their touch AC isn't great, because their AC mostly comes from natural armour, but this leads to them having a igh AC when caught unaware.)

I'm saying that more often than not you aren't in Bright Light. The only common sources are sun light and the Daylight spell; most light sources only produce normal light, so if you're inside, underground, it's night or stormy out, you don't have to worry about the weakness involved. That's a large part of the game. If it's really concerning, the Evolutionary Surge chain can solve that detail quite handily, either providing it or boosting to full concealment. Unless you're always in sunny featureless plains, you don't have to worry about being negated all the time. It will happen at some point but it's not an overbearing weakness.

Again, it depends on the campaign. Kingmaker, a campaign where you have to do a fair bit of exploration, is an example of a campaign where bright light conditions are pretty much impossible to avoid, whereas in the world's largest dungeon (the horror), bright light is not something you will encounter outside of the daylight spell and similar effect.

And you don't have to have the effect cancelled all the time for its effect to be diminished, just the possibility is often enough (because then you have to take precautions). But, again, if I were running through the world's largest dungeon (and I never will), Shadow Blend increases in value compared to doing the Kingmaker campaign.

It is true, that this is an excellent candidate for Evolution Surge, and certainly adds to this spell chain's already tremendous power and versatility.
Need hide-in-plain-sight? Presto, lesser surge it. Need to not be targetted by that awful control mage? Surge it. Need to hit an incorporeal creature? Surge it. Fighting a touch AC enemy? Surge it. Fighting sneaky attackers*? Yup. Awesomeness in a can.

I stand by my colouring. Yes, they can be very useful, but they are inherently situational, and Shadow Form is downright harmful for most builds (though I might accept *checkscolourcodefortheguide* purple as it is not always a trap, just most of the time).
This doesn't mean that they cannot be very useful in those situations, but that is what you can use Evolution Surge for, situations.

*BTW, which page is that on, because I couldn't find it last night, though I was quite drunk, so that might have been the reason, ahem.

[Andvare]

I like this idea a lot I just wish Antagonize could target the same person more than once per day.

I'm working on a Brownie (ARG) Master Summoner that uses its eidolon for a mount and the two scout together (using the Stealth Synergy and Escape Route teamwork feats). The Shadow evos could give it even more survivability, but of course as a MS those evo points come SLOOOOW so 4 points may not be feasible.

As I read it, you can target creatures with antagonize more than once a day, just not with the intimidate-antagonize ability, as the "Once you have targeted a creature with this ability, you cannot target it again for 1 day." bit is under the intimidation part only. -2 to hit and 10% spell failure is a decent debuff.

[Renchard]

Quick question.

1st level Biped Eidolon gets claws as a free evolution. Can those claws be attached to the legs?

If I took Martial Weapon Proficiency and used a Greatsword, could the 1st level eidolon do a full attack and have 3 total attacks?

Greatsword as primary, normal attack bonus.
Claw as secondary, -5 attack, half Str damage.
Claw as secondary, -5 attack, half Str damage.

[jaybird]

Quick question.

1st level Biped Eidolon gets claws as a free evolution. Can those claws be attached to the legs?

If I took Martial Weapon Proficiency and used a Greatsword, could the 1st level eidolon do a full attack and have 3 total attacks?

Greatsword as primary, normal attack bonus.
Claw as secondary, -5 attack, half Str damage.
Claw as secondary, -5 attack, half Str damage.

Yes, but only one Claw evolution can be on your Eidolon's Legs, no matter how many Leg evolutions you take.

[OgreSage]

As I read it, you can target creatures with antagonize more than once a day, just not with the intimidate-antagonize ability, as the "Once you have targeted a creature with this ability, you cannot target it again for 1 day." bit is under the intimidation part only. -2 to hit and 10% spell failure is a decent debuff.

Ahh, I completely missed the distinction, probably because I was only thinking about Intimidate. I agree the Diplomacy check gives a decent debuff.

[neonchameleon]

I've my own Eidolon guides to throw in.

The mostly non-combat Skilldolon.

Summoning Monsters.

[Andvare]

I've my own Eidolon guides to throw in.

The mostly non-combat Skilldolon.

Summoning Monsters.

Both nice guides. I especially like the second one. Isn't it somewhat old? Still relevant though. I am making a list of spells you get via Summon Monster, would you be interested in such a list?

You might want to check the new evolutions from ARG, as I mentioned earlier, they are very situational, but for a stealth, non-combat, build, they are quite good.

Edit: I think you should mention the lightning elemental's bonus on trip and disarm. A small lightning elemental has a CMB of 11 (13 augment summoning) for trip, disarm, overrun and bull rush. They will likely die against an opponent with an AoO left, but against archers and enemies that have expended their AoOs, they are quite capable of locking them down for a few rounds.

[Andvare]

A list of all the spells you can cast by Summon Monster Proxy.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...WaL1yphBk/edit

Just remember that it is not a full list, as I have removed all the spells that doesn't affect the world outside of the creature summoned. So, for example, I have removed invisibility (self only) and mirror image.

I also haven't included the spells from creatures you get from First Worlder nor from any alternative adventure path.

[aar0nier0]

Hi there, first forum message here.

I apologize if my doubt has been solved already, too long thread to read everything and find what I'm looking for. Well, here I go:

Is there any feat or trick that permit summoners/wizards/sorcerers to wear armour ignoring the arcane spell failure check? I'm asking cause in the guide says "recomended summoner items" leather<chain< blabla +1" then I wonder...armour? really? HOW please xD

Thanks.

[Andvare]

Summoners can wear light armour without Arcane Spell Failure.

Edit:

To quote the summoner entry:

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Summoners are proficient with all simple weapons. Summoners are also proficient with light armor. A summoner can cast summoner spells while wearing light armor without incurring the normal arcane spell failure chance. Like any other arcane spellcaster, a summoner wearing medium or heavy armor, or using a shield, incurs a chance of arcane spell failure if the spell in question has a somatic component. A multiclass summoner still incurs the normal arcane spell failure chance for arcane spells received from other classes.

Something that a wizard or a sorcerer can't.

They can use the mithral buckler trick though.
You can cast spells while wearing a buckler, and if it is made of mithral, it does not incur any spell failure chance. Somewhat expensive for a +1 shield bonus, but it can be enchanted, and more AC is always nice.

[grarrrg]

Is there any feat or trick that permit summoners/wizards/sorcerers to wear armour ignoring the arcane spell failure check? I'm asking cause in the guide says "recomended summoner items" leather<chain< blabla +1" then I wonder...armour? really? HOW please xD

What Andvare said, Summoners can cast in Light (so can Bard and Magus).

But there is one trick.
Armored Kilt, Haramaki, and Silken Ceremonial Armor all have 0 Armor check penalty, and 0% Arcane Spell Failure. Meaning anyone can wear them and take Non-Proficiency penalties of Zero.

[aar0nier0]

:O!
Thank you, I didn't noticed that (clearly for my question) so, yoohoo! its cool, more even :D

[Larpus]

There're also the Arcane Training and Arcane Mastery feats, which reduce your arcane spell failure by 10% each (20% in total).

Though yeah, most probably not worthy feats of being picked up.

[grarrrg]

There're also the Arcane Training and Arcane Mastery feats, which reduce your arcane spell failure by 10% each (20% in total).

Though yeah, most probably not worthy feats of being picked up.

You also have to take "Light Armor Prof" and "Medium Armor Prof" as feats (unless you multi-class).
So for a Straight class Wizard/Sorc/Witch, you'd have to take _4_ feats to get 20% less failure.

Of course, you can always make it out of Mithral for another 10% reduction.

Note: the only Light Armor that would be considered "mostly metal" enough to qualify for Mithral-ing is the Chain Shirt with a base failure rate of 20%, so you'd still need the Arcane Armor feat.

[Metahuman1]

Um, I may have missed it in my going over of the handbook, but I don't really see much in the way of advice on a Synthesist Summoner. Just pointing that out.

[grarrrg]

Um, I may have missed it in my going over of the handbook, but I don't really see much in the way of advice on a Synthesist Summoner. Just pointing that out.

Step 1: Take levels in Synthesist Summoner
Step 2: Profit!!!!

Really. It's pretty ridiculous how easy it is to make a Synthesist good.

CHA is your main stat.
Depending on starting level, you may or may not want decent STR/DEX/CON scores (yes, Synthesist can DUMP CON and be fine).

Your choices for Eidolon are:
Biped or Quad, Biped gets better Reach, Quad gets pounce.
Natural Attacks, Weapon Attacks, or both. If using Weapon at all, you will need Arms.
Boost STR.
Go Half-Elf for the extra Evolution points.

After a few levels you'll basically be a Barbarian//Bard Gestalt.

[Andvare]

You will need arms in any case, as you can't cast somatic component spells without 'em.

Be very careful with dumping con. When your eidolon goes, so does that extra hp from the eidolon's con, and that could kill you instantly at higher levels.

The only way you can heal a synthesist's eidolon is via the rejuvenate eidolon spell chain, so this is a necessary spell.

Beware of dismissal and other spells that can remove your eidolon instantly. Though they do require a will save, they can gimp you quite thoroughly (you still have summon monster to fall back on though).

You are an excellent front line fighter. You should have more hp than anyone else (effectively getting almost double con bonus on each level, plus the extra, if only d8, hit die). Your AC can also hit a very high number, though this is mostly natural armour and spell buff armour, and you will probably have an appallingly low touch AC (like a regular full-plate fighter often has).
Your damage potential is also quite high, but can be hampered by damage reduction.
The highest damage potential is clearly the Kali multi weapon double slice type (be sure your GM accepts that you can take double slice with multi weapon fighting), as the only limit to how many attacks you can have in one round with a weapon, is your evolution points. However, this build is severely challenged by DR.
A more typical build is the centaur build. Pounce, one huge weapon and as many natural attacks as your level allows. Extra evolutions points used to buff str, con, dex and armour and other goodies.
But the possibilities for a build are rather large. You can easily do a trip build, or a battlefield control fighter (with grease and a high cha for intimidation so antagonize and dazzling display both are very viable) and so on and so forth.
Your role is somewhat locked in as a fighter, and probably a melee fighter. But other than that, go nuts.

Edit: Just realized you actually didn't ask for advice, ah well, it's there now.

[Crasical]

Be very careful with dumping con. When your eidolon goes, so does that extra hp from the eidolon's con, and that could kill you instantly at higher levels.

I thought that HP gained from Eidolon Fusion was THP and thus lost first, meaning you never have that 'die from Hp dropping' effect like barbarians do? The fact that It's THP and not regular HP is what makes synthesist eidolons so hard to heal, in fact.

[Andvare]

I thought that HP gained from Eidolon Fusion was THP and thus lost first, meaning you never have that 'die from Hp dropping' effect like barbarians do? The fact that It's THP and not regular HP is what makes synthesist eidolons so hard to heal, in fact.

When you are a synthesist and are fused with your eidolon, you use the eidolon's con stat instead of your own. If you dump your own con stat, the difference is quite big. The hit points from the bigger con is lost when you lose your eidolon.

An example:
Say you have dumped your con to 7, and your eidolon has a con of 14, you now gain 4 hit points per hit die when you fuse with your eidolon. At level 5, this is 20 hit points.
Say you have been in a big fight, and are down to 3 hit points, because you have used the rest to save your eidolon with fused link. If you then go to sleep, or otherwise dismiss (or lose) your eidolon, before getting healed, you will die because you lose 20 hit points the instant you "unfuse" with your eidolon.

[Metahuman1]

No, I didn't, but I was going to so thanks anyway!

Also, does that archatype happen to stack with any other Archatypes?