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Thread: 1st level barbarian, 30 hp?
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2012-10-03, 12:05 AM (ISO 8601)
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1st level barbarian, 30 hp?
I am having a disagreement with a PC who has a 1st level barbarian with 30 hit points.
I think most of the issue comes from our interpretation of "hit die" in the improved toughness feat. So, I come to the playground to set me straight.
He has a barbarian, 12 hp at 1st level. +2 hp from his Con bonus (14). he took toughness as a feat (so +3, now 17), and improved toughness (from Libris Mortis), which he says gives him 12 hitpoints (I assume his argument is "a barbarian has a d12 hit die, so, 12 points). He then seems to tack on an additional hitpoint because improved toughness "also give 1 hitpoint per level".
I read it that he would gain 1 hp with the feat, because he is a 1 hit die person at level 1.
I copied his answer to my question "How does your 1st level barbarian have 30 hitpoints?"
Answer: 12 from full hit die, 12 from improved toughness which gives a hit die equal to the level it is taken,1 for improved toughness which also gives 1 per level 3 from toughness for being a bear totem barbarian, and 2 from CON bonus.
So... which of us is missing the boat?
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2012-10-03, 12:07 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 1st level barbarian, 30 hp?
The PC. Inform him that his hit die is 1d12, and when he reaches level 2, he'll have 2d12 HD.
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2012-10-03, 12:08 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 1st level barbarian, 30 hp?
Your PC. Improved toughness gives you an amount of extra HP equal to your number of Hit dice, not the maximum of your hit Die. He should get +1, not +12.
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2012-10-03, 12:08 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 1st level barbarian, 30 hp?
You gain hit points equal to your hit dice. Each time you gain a hit die, you gain a point. Lose a hit die, lose a hit point. He does not gain 12 hit points, he probably just misinterpreted the rules. But it definitely does NOT give you more than 1 point per die.
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2012-10-03, 12:12 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 1st level barbarian, 30 hp?
No worries about going crazy - it's your player that's missing the boat.
The text for Improved Toughness from Libris Mortis is exactly the same as the text from Improved Toughness from Complete Warrior.
And since you can't take the same feat more than once... he loses 12 hit points.
So he actually has 18 hit points at first level, not 30.
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2012-10-03, 12:18 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2012
Re: 1st level barbarian, 30 hp?
So lets add this up a bit.
12 from level 1 Barbarian+3 from toughness+2 from CON+1 from improved toughness per level (so 1 at level 1)=18 hp and 20 in rage
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2012-10-03, 12:19 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 1st level barbarian, 30 hp?
You're right. The feat only gives 1 HP/HD, so in this case, it's only 1. It's not the sides of the die that the feat is based on.
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2012-10-03, 01:28 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 1st level barbarian, 30 hp?
One way to show that his interpretation of the feat is incorrect is to point out that the word "dice" is plural, so the sentence "You gain a number of hit points equal to your current Hit Dice" cannot be referring to the specific die he gained at the level he took the feat.
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2012-10-03, 02:20 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 1st level barbarian, 30 hp?
To get at the player's interpretation directly, I believe he's not parsing the following sentence correctly:
Each time you gain a HD (such as by gaining a level), you gain 1 additional hit point.Originally Posted by The Giant
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2012-10-06, 07:03 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 1st level barbarian, 30 hp?
Best HP feat otherwise. I wonder how he was planning on doing level 2, especially if he jumped class to something with say a D8.
As all these fine people say, you are correct.Last edited by BobVosh; 2012-10-06 at 07:03 AM.
Originally Posted by Alabenson
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2012-10-06, 10:54 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 1st level barbarian, 30 hp?
You want to direct your player's attention to the Glossary in the PHB.
Hit Die/Dice (HD): In the singular form, a die rolled to generate
hit points. In the plural form, a measure of relative power that is
synonymous with character level for the sake of spells, magic items,
and magical effects that affect a certain number of Hit Dice of
creatures.“No matter how subtle the wizard, a knife between the shoulder blades will seriously cramp his style.” ― Steven Brust
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2012-10-06, 11:02 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 1st level barbarian, 30 hp?
Your player doesn't understand what Hit Dice are. This is a very deep misunderstanding that will impact every interaction he has with the game. One of the main purposes of my Monster Handbook is to introduce players to the Hit Dice system, I suggest you direct your player to read the relevant sections.
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2012-10-06, 01:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 1st level barbarian, 30 hp?
I'd just like to throw another vote in for "read Urpriest's guide"; I DM'ed for four years and didn't completely understand the HD/class level/level adjustment/CR system until I read his guide.
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2012-10-06, 08:58 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 1st level barbarian, 30 hp?
thanks guys. I thought I was thinking correct, but... it never hurts to double check before jumping into a discussion.
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2012-10-07, 08:29 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 1st level barbarian, 30 hp?
And since you can't take the same feat more than once... he loses 12 hit points.
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2012-10-07, 08:34 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 1st level barbarian, 30 hp?
However, a human with 2 flaws can take Toughness 4 times at level 1! That is so cool.
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2012-10-07, 08:35 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 1st level barbarian, 30 hp?
If you could take feats more then once, why would some feats specifically say you can take them more then once, and if their effects stack or not?
Like Toughness:
Toughness [General]
Benefit: You gain +3 hit points.
Special: A character may gain this feat multiple times. Its effects stack.Last edited by Jeraa; 2012-10-07 at 08:36 AM.
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2012-10-07, 08:50 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 1st level barbarian, 30 hp?
It's actually because of this line in the PHB (p 87): "Unlike a skill, a feat has no ranks. A character either has a feat or does not."
So taking a feat multiple times has no effect unless there is a specific exception made to explain what happens when you take it more than once.“No matter how subtle the wizard, a knife between the shoulder blades will seriously cramp his style.” ― Steven Brust
"In God we trust. All others we investigate." - United States Army Military Police Corps
My thanks to Komodo for the excellent Avatar.
Check out BSR's Improved Sorcerer project.
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2012-10-07, 10:37 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 1st level barbarian, 30 hp?
Originally Posted by SRDLast edited by nedz; 2012-10-07 at 10:37 AM.
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2012-10-07, 12:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 1st level barbarian, 30 hp?
It's +3 for toughness, and +1/Hit Die for Improved Toughness. This is basically +1/Level, provided that LA isn't involved. So: 12 HP for Barbarian, +1 for Improved Toughness, +3 for Toughness, +2 for constitution, 18 total, plus 1d12+3 per level for the foreseeable future.
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2012-10-07, 12:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 1st level barbarian, 30 hp?
My bigger question is why is he not taking Power Attack
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2012-10-07, 12:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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2012-10-07, 01:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 1st level barbarian, 30 hp?
“No matter how subtle the wizard, a knife between the shoulder blades will seriously cramp his style.” ― Steven Brust
"In God we trust. All others we investigate." - United States Army Military Police Corps
My thanks to Komodo for the excellent Avatar.
Check out BSR's Improved Sorcerer project.
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2012-10-07, 02:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2010
Re: 1st level barbarian, 30 hp?
I'll take you up on that bet. Best two out of three, 32PB, standard starting gold, and two traits and flaws?
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2012-10-07, 03:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 1st level barbarian, 30 hp?
I'll laugh if his build is 4x toughness + weapon focus.
Originally Posted by Alabenson
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2012-10-07, 04:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 1st level barbarian, 30 hp?
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2012-10-07, 04:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 1st level barbarian, 30 hp?
Really the way the player wants to use toughness doesn't hurt to much and makes Toughness/Imp Toughness a better feat (note: better not a good feat)... Really HP in 3.5 doesn't matter since so much stuff bypasses HP.
Plus he is a Barbarian so throwing him a bone wouldn't be to bad...Last edited by TopCheese; 2012-10-07 at 04:23 PM.
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2012-10-07, 04:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 1st level barbarian, 30 hp?
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2012-10-07, 04:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 1st level barbarian, 30 hp?
As everyone else has said, you gain +1 HP per hit die. Also, maybe tell him to take another feat other than toughness. Maybe power attack.
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2012-10-07, 04:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 1st level barbarian, 30 hp?
An half-orc Fighter 1 with 20 str (after racials) a greatsword deals about 14 damage per attack with an attack bonus of +6 (7 if he gets weapon focus), he can kill the toughness X 5 in about 3 rounds. In D&D the best defence is usually the best offence.