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2012-07-29, 03:33 PM (ISO 8601)Pixie in the Playground
- Join Date
- Feb 2007
[3.5 base class and martial discipline] Scoundrel and Savage Cutthroat PEACH
Scoundrel
"Now's the time to be alive - to see it all happen, to be a part of it. That makes the blood race, and each breath is an adventure." -- Silk (David Eddings, Pawn of Prophecy)
Many people live in the cracks of civilized society, surviving due to their wits and their blades. Some are their because they have no other choice -- either they were expelled from society or they never had a place there to begin with. Others are there because they want to make a fortune, and they don't see a way to do so without venturing into the shady side of town. Scoundrels, however, live in the cracks because respectable life is boring. There's more danger, more excitement, and more opportunity in the areas where the law doesn't reach, and scoundrels seek to make the most of it.
Beyond the love of excitement, there are few common threads between scoundrels. Some are silver-tongued tricksters who can back up their words with a blade if their mark catches on to their tricks. Some are sneak thieves who can infiltrate any building and kill anyone pursuing them without the pursuer ever seeing what hit them. Some are duelists who look for nothing more than a good fight. There are even some who try to uphold the law, putting their skills to use hunting down lawbreakers in areas where the law doesn't normally reach. However, one thing is always constant: scoundrels are dangerous opponents, both on and off the battlefield.
Making A Scoundrel
SpoilerAs a scoundrel, you possess great non-combat skills and a variety of maneuvers in combat. You do not gain any form of magical abilities (though you may be able to fake it well enough to use magic items), but your skills should see you through situations where most other people would have to rely on magic. However, while you may be able to be good at anything, you can't be good at everything. A certain degree of focus is important. You also want to note that you pay for your out-of-combat skills with slightly less melee ability. If you go toe to toe with heavier melee class, there's a good chance you won't come away the winner, though you won't lose by much. However, you should be able to use your skills and abilities to turn the tables on stronger but less flexible classes, and you are at least as useful outside of combat as most rogues. Overall, you would be a useful asset to any adventuring party.
Abilities: Intelligence is the most important stat for scoundrels. It improves almost everything they do, from skill checks to AC. As a skill-focused class, the additional skill points come in handy as well. Dexterity is also extremely useful, since a scoundrel generally uses light armor and Dexterity increases their weapon damage. Of course, Constitution is also useful, since any melee character needs extra hp.
Races: Humanity's adaptibility and inventiveness fit perfectly with the scoundrel mindset. They are big enough to pull off the disarms and throws that scoundrels are known for, and their additional skills and feats are also extremely useful. A halfling's speed and opportunistic nature also works well for scoundrels, and many halflings become scoundrels or scoundrel/rogues. Elves are also well suited to becoming scoundrels, though their frailness is a liability. Other races are not particularly suited to a scoundrel's lifestyle, though members of any race can become scoundrels if they so choose.
Alignment: A scoundrel can be of any alignment. They tend towards chaotic, since lawful society isn't nearly as interesting as the chaos around society's edges. However, there are lawful scoundrels who try to impose order in lawless areas. Scoundrels also have a tendency towards evil over good. The scoundrel stereotype doesn't generally worry about who else they hurt, though a Robin Hood-esque scoundrel is perfectly possible.
Starting Gold: 5d4*10 (125 gp)
Starting Age: as Ranger
Progression
Spoiler{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special Abilities|[div]Maneuvers[/div][div]Known[/div]|[div]Maneuvers[/div][div]Readied[/div]|[div]Stances[/div][div]Known[/div]
1|0|0|2|0|[div]Insightful Will,[/div][div]Swift Reflexes +1,[/div][div]Trapfinding[/div]|4|4|1
2|1|0|3|0|Insightful Defense|5|4|2
3|2|1|3|1|Uncanny Dodge|6|4|2
4|3|1|4|1|[div]Dextrous Strike[/div]|7|5|2
5|3|1|4|1|Swift Reflexes +2|7|5|3
6|4|2|5|2|[div]Evasion,[/div][div]Insightful Movement[/div]|8|5|3
7|5|2|5|2||9|6|3
8|6/1|2|6|2|Improved Critical|10|6|3
9|6/1|3|6|3|Swift Reflexes +3|10|6|3
10|7/2|3|7|3|Insightful Combatant|11|7|4
11|8/3|3|7|3|Improved Uncanny Dodge|12|7|4
12|9/4|4|8|4|Weakening Critical|13|7|4
13|9/4|4|8|4|Swift Reflexes +4|13|8|4
14|10/5|4|9|4|Improved Evasion|14|8|4
15|11/6/1|5|9|5||15|8|4
16|12/7/2|5|10|5|Wounding Critical|16|9|4
17|12/7/2|5|10|5|Swift Reflexes +5|16|9|5
18|13/8/3|6|11|6|Slippery Mind|17|9|5
19|14/9/4|6|11|6||18|10|5
20|15/10/5|6|12|6|Refreshing Critical|19|10|5[/table]
Class Skills (6 + Int modifier per level, ×4 at 1st level): rogue list + concentration, martial lore
Class Features
SpoilerWeapon and Armor Proficiencies
Scoundrels are proficient with all simple and martial weapons plus the hand crossbow. Scoundrels are proficient with light armor, but not with shields.
Maneuvers
Recover maneuvers as a standard action. Maneuvers are chosen from the Tiger Claw, Diamond Mind, Setting Sun, Circling Vulture (just the non-supernatural maneuvers), and Savage Cutthroat disciplines. Upon reaching 4th level and every level after that except 7, 11, 15, and 19 (4, 5, 6, 8, 9, 10, 12, ...), you can learn a single maneuver in place of one you already know.
Insightful Will
Your quick mind allows you to elude attacks that target your willpower. You may use your Intelligence modifier instead of your Wisdom modifier when making a Will saving throw. Your Intelligence modifier to Will saves is capped at your Scoundrel class level.
Swift Reflexes
You gain the listed bonus as an insight bonus to Initiative rolls.
Insightful Defense
You add your int modifier as insight bonus to AC. This bonus applies to touch and flatfooted ac. This bonus is lost when you are in medium or heavy armor, when you are using a shield, or when you are immobilized. This bonus does not stack with a Monk's wisdom bonus to AC or any other similar class feature.
Dextrous Strike
Your training allows you to use your speed to augment your attacks. You may add your dexterity modifier as a bonus to damage instead of adding your strength modifier when making a melee attack with a weapon eligible for weapon finesse or a ranged attack with a dagger, dart, shortbow, light crossbow, or hand crossbow. When wielding a two handed melee weapon, assuming it is eligible for weapon finesse, you gain 1.5*dexterity modifier to damage instead of your dexterity modifier. When dual wielding weapons, you add your full dexterity modifier to damage on attacks with your off hand. When using a ranged attack, this extra damage only applies against foes within 30 ft. This bonus is lost when you are wearing medium or heavy armor or are using a shield.
Insightful Movement
You gain your Intelligence bonus as an insight bonus on Strength checks, Dexterity checks, and checks involving skills based on Strength or Dexterity, such as Hide, Climb, and Jump. This bonus is lost when you are wearing medium or heavy armor or are using a shield. This bonus does not stack with a Factotum's Brains over Brawn class feature.
Improved Critical
Applies to all weapons.
Insightful Combatant
You can add your int modifier as an insight bonus to trip, feint, and disarm checks. This bonus does not stack with size bonuses to trip or disarm checks for creatures larger than medium, though creatures smaller than medium take size penalties as normal.
Weakening Critical
When you score a critical hit against a creature, you also deal 2 points of Strength damage to the creature. Creatures immune to critical hits are immune to this effect.
Wounding Critical
When you score a critical hit against a creature, you also deal 2 points of Constitution damage to the creature. Creatures immune to critical hits are immune to this effect.
Refreshing Critical
When you score a critical hit against a creature, you can recover one maneuver of your choice. You may not use this ability to recover a maneuver used since the end of your last turn, and you may not use a maneuver recovered in this fashion until after the end of your current turn.
Savage Cutthroat
SpoilerSavage Cutthroat is a relatively recent discipline. It was created by a famous halfling rogue and has slowly spread through the criminal world. It focuses on non-magical concealment and striking from the shadows. Savage Cutthroat initiates use their intellect to help strike at the weak points in their foes' defenses. Mostly practiced by rogues, thieves, and other similar characters, it has never been formalized the way the original disciplines have. Most martial adepts look down on it as a bastardization of their arts, but it is undoubtedly effective in the hands of a master.
The key skill for Savage Cutthroat maneuvers is Hide. Weapons associated with Savage Cutthroat include the dagger, hand crossbow, rapier, sap, and short sword.
All Savage Cutthroat maneuvers are ex abilities.
Summary
Spoiler1
Brigand's Shelter: strike - gain 20% concealment against opponent
Strike of the Thief: strike - +2d6 damage vs opponent denied dex bonus to AC
Murderer's Instinct: stance - gain 1d6 sneak attack
2
Shadow Cloak: boost - hide, gain camouflage until end of turn
Umbral Shield: counter - use hide check instead of ac for attack
3
Lethal Blade: boost - gain 2d6 sneak attack
Brigand's Refuge: strike - gain 50% concealment against opponent
Silent Step: stance - sneak at full speed without penalty, gain +5 to hide and move silently
4
Strike of the Murderer: strike - +8d6 damage against opponent denied dex bonus to AC
Greater Shadow Cloak: boost - hide, gain camouflage until your next turn
Marauder's Escape: counter - freedom of movement until the start or end of your turn
5
Concussive Strike: strike - +5d6 damage and save or stun vs opponent denied dex bonus to AC
Assassin's Eye: boost - ignore immunity to precision damage/critical hits
Swashbuckler's Grace: stance - You and allies flank all adjacent foes, +2 attack and +1/2 your initiator level damage when flanking or denied dex bonus
6
Brigand's Sanctuary: strike - gain 50% concealment for a round
Greater Lethal Blade: boost - gain 5d6 sneak attack
7
Strike of the Assassin: strike - +15d6 damage against opponent denied dex bonus to AC
8
Greater Concussive Strike: strike - +10d6 damage and stun vs opponent denied dex bonus to AC
Stance of the Executioner: stance - +3d6 sneak attack, ignore immunity to precision damage/critical hits
9
Shadowed Execution: strike - vs opponent denied dex bonus to AC, save or die, 20d6 damage and stun if success
Level 1
SpoilerBrigand's Shelter
Savage Cutthroat (Strike)
Level: Scoundrel 1
Initiation Action: 1 standard action
Range: Melee attack
Duration: 1 round
Your attack distracts your target enough to partially hide, concealing your precise location. As part of this maneuver, you make a melee attack against an opponent. If you hit, you gain 20% concealment against this opponent.
Murderer's Instinct
Savage Cutthroat (Stance)
Level: Scoundrel 1
Initiation Action: 1 swift action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: Stance
You gain 1d6 sneak attack or your existing sneak attack deals an additional 1d6 points of damage.
Strike of the Thief
Savage Cutthroat (Strike)
Level: Scoundrel 1
Initiation Action: 1 standard action
Range: Melee attack or 30 ft.
This maneuver only functions against an opponent that is denied a Dexterity bonus to Armor Class (whether the opponent actually has a Dexterity bonus or not). As part of this maneuver, you make an attack against an opponent. This may either be a melee attack or a ranged attack against an opponent within range. This attack deals an addition 2d6 points of precision damage.
Level 2
SpoilerShadow Cloak
Savage Cutthroat (Boost)
Level: Scoundrel 2
Initiation Action: 1 swift action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: End of round
Your great skill at hiding lets you seem to disappear while standing in plain sight. You gain the ability to hide without cover or concealment for the duration of the maneuver. Additionally, when you activate the maneuver, you may make a hide check to hide as part of the maneuver (no additional action). You may do this even if you are being observed, and you take no penalty for being observed. Apart from this single hide check, you do not gain the ability to hide while being observed.
Umbral Shield
Savage Cutthroat (counter)
Level: Scoundrel 2
Initiation Action: 1 immediate action
Range: Personal
[b]Target:[b] You
You briefly dodge out of an assailant's sight, causing him to miss. If your opponent strikes you on his turn, you can replace your AC with the result of a Hide check as an immediate action. You must decide whether to initiate this maneuver before you know the result of your opponent’s attack (but after the attack is declared). Your Hide check applies to only one attack. You must be aware of the attack to which you will apply the effect of this maneuver. If you are flat-footed against the incoming attack, you cannot use this maneuver.
Level 3
SpoilerBrigand's Refuge
Savage Cutthroat (Strike)
Level: Scoundrel 3
Prerequisite: 1 Savage Cutthroat maneuver
This maneuver functions like Brigand's Shelter, except as noted here.
You gain 50% concealment against the target hit instead of 20% concealment. Your target can still target you normally, similar to the effects of Displacement.
Lethal Blade
Savage Cutthroat (boost)
Level: Scoundrel 3
Prerequisite: 1 Savage Cutthroat maneuver
Initiation Action: 1 swift action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: End of turn
For the rest of your turn, you gain 2d6 sneak attack or your existing sneak attack deals an additional 2d6 points of damage.
Silent Step
Savage Cutthroat (stance)
Level: Scoundrel 3
Prerequisite: 1 Savage Cutthroat maneuvers
Initiation Action: 1 swift action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: stance
You do not take penalties to hide or move silently while moving up to your speed, and you gain a +5 bonus to hide and move silently.
Level 4
SpoilerMarauder's Escape
Savage Cutthroat (Counter)
Level: Scoundrel 4
Prerequisite: 1 Savage Cutthroat maneuver
Initiation Action: 1 immediate action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: Special
You gain Freedom of Movement as the spell for the duration of the effect. If you use it on your turn, it lasts until the end of your turn. If you use it when it is not your turn, it lasts until the start of your next turn.
Shadow Cloak, Greater
Savage Cutthroat (boost)
Level: Scoundrel 4
Prerequisite: 1 Savage Cutthroat maneuver
Duration: Start of next turn
This maneuver functions like Shadow Cloak, except as noted here.
You lose the ability to hide without cover or concealment at the start of your next turn. This means that if you are not in cover or concealment, opponents can see you at the start of your next turn, and so are no longer flatfooted against your attacks.
Strike of the Murderer
Savage Cutthroat (strike)
Level: Scoundrel 4
Prerequisite: 1 Savage Cutthroat maneuver
This maneuver functions like Strike of the Thief, except as noted here.
You deal an additional 8d6 points of precision damage instead of 2d6 points of precision damage.
Level 5
SpoilerAssassin's Eye
Savage Cutthroat (boost)
Level: Scoundrel 5
Prerequisite: 2 Savage Cutthroat maneuvers
Initiation Action: 1 swift action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: End of round
You may deal precision damage and critical hits to any target, regardless of their immunities (including undead/construct type, fortification, and concealment). The attack still has to qualify for the damage (you have to threaten and confirm the critical, the target needs to be flanked or denied their dexterity bonus to ac in order to deal sneak attack damage, etc), and you do not ignore any other effects of a trait that gives immunity to precision damage or critical hits (you still must deal with the miss chance from concealment).
Concussive Strike
Savage Cutthroat (strike)
Level: Scoundrel 5
Prerequisite: 2 Savage Cutthroat maneuvers
Initiation Action: 1 standard action
Range: Melee attack
This maneuver only works against an opponent that is denied a Dexterity bonus to Armor Class (whether the opponent actually has a Dexterity bonus or not). As part of this maneuver, make a melee attack. If you hit, you deal 5d6 points of precision damage in addition to normal damage and the target must make a Fortitude save (dc 15 + your dexterity modifier). If he fails, he is stunned for a round. A target immune to precision damage is immune to the stunning effect.
Swashbuckler's Grace
Savage Cutthroat (stance)
Level: Scoundrel 5
Prerequisite: 2 Savage Cutthroat maneuvers
Initiation Action: 1 swift action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: stance
If both you and an ally are adjacent to the same creature, the two of you gain the benefit for flanking that opponent. You can gain this benefit against multiple opponents at the same time, as can your allies. If both you and an ally are adjacent to the same two creatures, the two of you gain the benefit of flanking against both creatures.
In addition, you gain a +2 bonus to your attack rolls and deal extra precision damage equal to 1/2 your initiator level against flanked or flatfooted opponents.
Level 6
SpoilerBrigand's Sanctuary
Savage Cutthroat (Strike)
Level: Scoundrel 6
Prerequisite: 2 Savage Cutthroat maneuvers
This maneuver functions like Brigand's Shelter, except as noted here.
You gain 50% concealment against all foes if you hit with your attack. Opponents can still target you normally, similar to the effects of Displacement.
Lethal Blade, Greater
Savage Cutthroat (boost)
Level: Scoundrel 6
Prerequisite: 2 Savage Cutthroat maneuvers
This maneuver functions like Lethal Blade, except as noted here.
You gain or add 5d6 sneak attack.
Level 7
SpoilerStrike of the Assassin
Savage Cutthroat (strike)
Level: Scoundrel 7
Prerequisite: 3 Savage Cutthroat maneuvers
This maneuver functions like Strike of the Thief, except as noted here.
You deal an additional 15d6 points of precision damage instead of 2d6 points of precision damage.
Level 8
SpoilerConcussive Strike, Greater
Savage Cutthroat (strike)
Level: Scoundrel 8
Prerequisite: 3 Savage Cutthroat maneuvers
This maneuver functions like Concussive Strike, except as noted here.
You deal an additional 10d6 points of precision damage instead of 5d6 points of precision damage and the target is stunned without a save.
Stance of the Executioner
Savage Cutthroat (stance)
Level: Scoundrel 8
Prerequisite: 3 Savage Cutthroat maneuvers
Initiation Action: 1 swift action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: stance
You gain 3d6 sneak attack or your existing sneak attack deals an additional 3d6 points of damage. Additionally, you may deal precision damage and critical hits to any target, regardless of their immunities (including undead/construct type, fortification, and concealment). The attack still has to qualify for the damage (you have to threaten and confirm the critical, the target needs to be flanked or denied their dexterity bonus to ac in order to deal sneak attack damage, etc), and you do not ignore any other effects of a trait that gives immunity to precision damage or critical hits (you still must deal with the miss chance from concealment).
Level 9
SpoilerShadowed Execution
Savage Cutthroat (strike)
Level: Scoundrel 9
Prerequisite: 4 Savage Cutthroat maneuvers
Initiation Action: 1 standard action
Range: Melee attack
This maneuver only works against an opponent that is denied a Dexterity bonus to Armor Class (whether the opponent actually has a Dexterity bonus or not). As part of this maneuver, make a melee attack. If you hit, the target must make a fortitude save (DC 19 + yourdexterity modifier). If the save fails, the target is instantly slain (his hit points drop to -10). If the save is successful, you deal an additional 20d6 points of precision damage and the target is stunned for a round. A target immune to precision damage is also immune to the instant death and stunning effects.
Thanks to playswithfire's Wandering Eye and unosarta's Fox's Guile for the inspiration for some of the maneuvers.
Savage Cutthroat Feats
SpoilerCutthroat's Eye
You use your intellect to guide your blows instead of your speed or your strength.
Prerequisite: 1 Savage Cutthroat stance
Benefit: If you are in a Savage Cutthroat stance, when making a melee attack with a weapon eligible for weapon finesse or a ranged attack with a dagger, dart, shortbow, light crossbow, or hand crossbow, you may add your Intelligence modifier instead of your Strength or Dexterity modifier to attack rolls.
Special: Cutthroat's Eye can be used in place of Weapon Finesse to qualify for a feat, prestige class, or other special ability.
Way of the Assassin [Tactical]
Your mastery of Savage Cutthroat allows you to fight from the shadows with unmatched skill.
Prerequisite: Int 13, 2 Savage Cutthroat maneuvers, Cutthroat's Eye, BAB +6, 9 ranks in Hide
Benefit: The Way of the Assassin feat enables the use of three tactical options.
Studied Precision: Pick an opponent within 30 ft that you can see. If you take a full round action to study this opponent's weaknesses, you may deal precision damage and critical hits with all of your attacks against this opponent until the end of your next turn, regardless of its immunities (including undead/construct type, fortification, and concealment). Your attacks still have to qualify for the damage (you have to threaten and confirm the critical, the target needs to be flanked or denied their dexterity bonus to ac in order to deal sneak attack damage, etc), and you do not ignore any other effects of a trait that gives immunity to precision damage or critical hits (you still must deal with the miss chance from concealment). Additionally, all of your attacks against this opponent until the end of your next turn ignore your target's damage reduction, if it has any.
Concealed Riposte: If an opponent misses you due to concealment, you gain +4 to attack and damage on all attacks against that foe in your next turn.
Hidden Movement: You may use Hide instead of Tumble to avoid attacks of opportunity. The dc for the hide check is the same as the dc for the equivalent tumble check, modified as normal. This includes the tumble penalties for fast movement and difficult terrain. An effect that allows you to tumble at normal speed without penalty would reduce the dc for the hide check, but an effect that allows you to hide while moving at full speed without penalty would have no effecct.
Notes on Other Classes
SpoilerScoundrels get access to the Circling Vulture discipline, which contains rules (scroll down a bit) allowing swordsages to swap one of their disciplines known for Circling Vulture. I strongly recommend that this be allowed in a game where Scoundrel is used, in order to preserve the swordsage's advantage in maneuver selection. Savage Cutthroat is not intended to be used by a swordsage, because they already get Shadow Hand.
The Scoundrel class is a tier 3 replacement for the Rogue and the Swashbuckler. The Scoundrel does not entirely obsolete either class, but any PC thinking about playing a single classed Rogue or Swashbuckler in a generally tier 3 party should strongly consider a Scoundrel instead. The flavor can be rather similar, and the abilities of a Scoundrel are (hopefully) more interesting and varied than the classes it replaces.Last edited by Retief; 2012-12-12 at 04:47 PM.
"Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend.
Inside of a dog, it is too dark to read."
Groucho Marx
Ineptitude - If you can't learn to do something well,
learn to enjoy doing it poorly.
Stupidity - Never underestimate the power of stupid
people in large groups.
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2012-07-29, 04:24 PM (ISO 8601)Bugbear in the Playground
- Join Date
- Feb 2012
Re: [3.5 base class] Cunning Blade
Actually, it really feels more like a martial adept Factotum except that it isn't as versatile. In all honesty all of the base adepts are probably overall better than this class. Allow me to explain, I see you are trying to make an intelligence-based/swashbuckling swordsage but despite your skills the Swordsage has Shadow Hand which does wonders for sneaking and moving around. It also has far more disciplines and maneuvers making it able to have what is needed. Yours on the other hand is tied into being an open striker with less health and BAB than the other two due to its disciplines. Warblade is the king of damage having Iron Heart, White Raven, and Diamond for Stormguard warrior, White Raven, Time Stands still carnage. Crusader is the tank being able to strike+heal at the same time as well as ablating damage and provoking massive AoO's. You on the other hand have less ability to power attack due to your finesse focus and moderate BAB while having a limited Swordsage list with a recovery mechanic that almost requires front-line fighting.
Originally Posted by Retief
Eh, warblade has a lot of bonuses with intelligence, its handy but it only works for Setting Sun which isn't very thematic at all.Last edited by Amnoriath; 2012-07-29 at 04:44 PM.
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2012-07-29, 04:54 PM (ISO 8601)Pixie in the Playground
- Join Date
- Feb 2007
Re: [3.5 base class] Cunning Blade
Thanks for the feedback. The lack of Shadow Hand is intentional -- I am trying to make a non-magical class, which means no teleporting or turning invisible. This means that I do fall into the magic>skills trap, but that's what I am stuck with. Also, I might be overvaluing the int synergies, since I generally play in campaigns with very high stat rolls (5d6 drop 2 with a bunch of rerolls).
That said, I think you are describing the level of balance I am looking for. A skillmonkey (high int, 6 skill points/lvl, and trapfinding is probably better than most rogues) who can at least try to compete with real martial adepts (even if he generally loses) is about what I am trying to make. I am already replacing the rogue; I don't need to replace the warblade as well. That said, I should probably edit the op to explain what I am trying to do better.Last edited by Retief; 2012-07-29 at 04:55 PM.
"Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend.
Inside of a dog, it is too dark to read."
Groucho Marx
Ineptitude - If you can't learn to do something well,
learn to enjoy doing it poorly.
Stupidity - Never underestimate the power of stupid
people in large groups.
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2012-07-29, 06:04 PM (ISO 8601)Bugbear in the Playground
- Join Date
- Feb 2012
Re: [3.5 base class] Cunning Blade
How about this, if you have the Complete Scoundrel go and look at skill tricks. I can see you are going for a duelist flavor, with that being the case you need to find a way to be a threat or at least a unavoidable annoyance Originally Posted by Retief
. Right now, you only have a couple of ways of dealing decent damage with less ways to mess with people than any other martial adept class. I think you could stick in a couple of bonus skill tricks that don't require the skill point cost and a couple of extra uses of them per encounter. There are some pretty handy abilities both in striking and moving there. I would also change the recovery mechanic, this guy can't afford to mandate a melee attack every time or wasting your round being a show off with his moderate health and lack of buffs. I would say as a swift action he can recover any single maneuver but it also can be any one he knows. He also may recover it in the same every time he successfully performs a skill trick. I would also start thinking about a discipline for itself or get rid of one the disciplines and allow a free choice plus have the discipline be a class skill.
Last edited by Amnoriath; 2012-07-29 at 08:30 PM.
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2012-07-29, 09:15 PM (ISO 8601)Pixie in the Playground
- Join Date
- Feb 2007
Re: [3.5 base class] Cunning Blade
I guess I didn't pay close enough attention to low level play. I tend to look at the class, see Greater Insightful Strike/Girallon Windmill Flesh Rip/Raging Mongoose/Time Stands Still/Tornado Throw and figure that it can deal damage. I didn't notice that at third level, you'd be attacking twice and dealing what, 1d4? 1d4-1? damage per hit. I guess you could take Claw at the Moon to get 2d6 more damage, which would at least be noticeable, but the situation still isn't exactly good. Things definitely improves once you get int to damage -- 1d4+3 isn't too bad for a character with skills, setting sun throws, and insightful strike, but it is still probably a bit weak.
At the moment, I'm thinking perhaps a really slow pseudo-sneak attack progression (perhaps 1, 9, 17). At low levels, 1d4+1d6 is actually noticeable damage, and 3d6 won't break things too badly at high levels -- this character can get 16 attacks in a round at high levels without too much trouble, so even 3d6 adds up, but other martial adepts (appropriately) still get better toys. I don't know whether the damage would be precision damage or what the limitations would be (perhaps any target, only finessable weapons?), but I don't think I want regular sneak attack. I am trying to avoid the situational problems of rogues, not recreate them. At this point, this class looks strictly superior to rogues at first level, but rogues would quickly pull away in bonus damage, so this is probably not a important balance issue (also, this class is supposed to be better than the rogue overall -- its balanced against martial adepts, not non-magical core classes).
The skill tricks might be a good idea to play up the skilled side of the class, but I don't think they solve the main problem. Free skill tricks/extra uses would help balance skills vs swordsage maneuvers slightly, but the skill tricks don't really add much damage. You'd probably still be left with the issue of "I can dance around really well, but nothing notices when I attack." It's still a nice minor-but-flavorful ability to add, but I don't see it playing much of a role with large scale balance.
As far as maneuver refreshing goes, swift action to recover one maneuver seems a bit broken, at least if you can do it and use a maneuver on the same turn. Imagine using Time Stands Still or Tornado Throw and recovering it the same turn. That seems like something that could actually surpass standard martial adepts, which is not the goal of the class. One thing that might be reasonable is to relax the "must attack or flourish" constraint. You'd still have to not use maneuvers every so often, but you can at least reposition yourself if full attacking isn't doable. I might need to restrict spell/power use as well, though, since the thought of a ruby knight vindicator or jade pheonix mage refreshing maneuvers by casting a spell is a bit scary. That said, I still worry about getting a better recovery mechanic than the standard martial adepts. I am trying to hit the "within shouting distance in melee and good skills" balance point, not the "equally good in melee and good skills" balance point."Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend.
Inside of a dog, it is too dark to read."
Groucho Marx
Ineptitude - If you can't learn to do something well,
learn to enjoy doing it poorly.
Stupidity - Never underestimate the power of stupid
people in large groups.
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2012-07-29, 11:25 PM (ISO 8601)Bugbear in the Playground
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Re: [3.5 base class] Cunning Blade
1. How about this, precise strike this ability would add 1d4 points of precision damage to any one handed and/or light weapon but doubles against a flat-footed opponent, for three/four times. Originally Posted by Retief
2. The class features of the others don't really make those classes either. They help but like the skill tricks they won't bridge the gap but with the right abilities they can open up some nice combos. As I said before you might want to look making your own duelist discipline or look at other homebrewed disciplines here.
3. Not as much as you would think, Crusaders recover most of their maneuvers for free. It may be random but considering many of their maneuvers are good at all levels and see persistent use it really isn't much of a drawback. You could just make it based off the successful skill trick mechanic as it fits flavor wise and not hamstringing him in actions.Last edited by Amnoriath; 2012-07-29 at 11:26 PM.
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2012-07-30, 12:35 PM (ISO 8601)Pixie in the Playground
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Re: [3.5 base class] Cunning Blade
I am starting to think that an additional discipline is the right answer. A homebrew "duelist" discipline would be ideal, but I don't exactly know what would go into it, and I don't really want to scroll through the five million existing homebrew disciplines. If you have a suggestion, I'd be happy to hear it, but as is, I'd probably go with a stock discipline. I'm thinking that Iron Heart might work well. Punishing Stance is exactly what I am looking for at low levels -- it gives me some bonus damage at low levels in a reasonable, balanced fashion without affecting high levels significantly or having situational issues. This also opens up Stormguard Warrior, which isn't exactly what I am looking for, but it isn't the end of the world. An actual warblade is still much better at Stormguard Warrior than this class (bonus feats to make getting prereqs easier, full BAB, d12 hd), so this probably would work balance-wise. I do lose out on the class identity front (this is starting to feel a bit like a wannabe warblade), but it still has a decent number of distinguishing features.
I am still considering skill tricks and have not yet come to any conclusions."Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend.
Inside of a dog, it is too dark to read."
Groucho Marx
Ineptitude - If you can't learn to do something well,
learn to enjoy doing it poorly.
Stupidity - Never underestimate the power of stupid
people in large groups.
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2012-07-30, 11:35 PM (ISO 8601)Bugbear in the Playground
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Re: [3.5 base class] Cunning Blade
As for ideas for a duelist discipline there are many things that can be done to help out feinting and disarming, a couple of cornerstones in einhander style. As it is character may add their BAB as an untyped bonus to their sense motive roll to disbelieve the feint. Disarming, currently benefits the bigger weapons and it puts risk to both parties meaning either party can lose its weapon or item. There are a few things in the books to help this but it almost takes a dedicated build. Originally Posted by Retief
Also this class can afford to deal less damage if it can maximize its applicability with skills and its ability of being a harasser. A lot of the maneuvers out there mainly find new ways to deal damage, augment/offer new movement, and inflict conditions mostly based on saves(which often have bad save DC's) with hits. I say look at using a few different skills to annoy and often ignore some other characters who would try to disrupt or spite you from using yours. As such instead of a discipline skill allow them to choose any one they have a class skill as that skill than give an untyped bonus based on initiator level(+1/4 levels?) and allowing them to treat as a skill focus feat for meeting prerequisites.
Here is a list of homebrew disciplines to wade through(3rd post).
http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-leg...ompendium.html
As for a name how about Dilettante?Last edited by Amnoriath; 2012-07-31 at 10:18 AM.
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2012-07-31, 09:53 PM (ISO 8601)Pixie in the Playground
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Re: [3.5 base class] Cunning Blade PEACH
Here's a draft of the homebrew discipline I've been working on to go with the class. I am also thinking about adding another homebrew discipline. At this point, the class would get access to Tiger Claw, Diamond Mind, Setting Sun, Circling Vulture (just the non-supernatural maneuvers), and Savage Cutthroat (below). I'll add it to the OP when I clean it up a bit and am more certain of its balance. I also changed class features a bit. I moved Swift Reflexes and Wounding Critical up and added an actual capstone. I am not entirely certain of the balance of the capstone, but the rest should be fine. On the plus side, all of my dead levels give +1 bab and a new maneuver level instead of just a new maneuver level. Its also rather nice to have an actual capstone as well.
The goal with the school was to give a sneaky type something to make up for Shadow Hand. There's a bunch of pseudo-sneak attack maneuvers and a few hide/defensive maneuvers. Its definitely a bit one-dimensional, but thats why the class gets access to other schools as well.
Overall, the class should have plenty of things to do at this point. You definitely get some sources of damage -- Savage Cutthroat sneak attack, int to damage, crit fishing, (greater) insightful strike, irritated mongoose, and of course time stands still/tornado throw. You also get a bunch of indirect/annoying stuff to do as well -- setting sun throws, circling vulture disarms, and savage cutthroat hiding stuff. Insightful Combatant/Insightful Movement help all of the indirect stuff as well. Maneuvers known limits the number of different things any individual character can do, but any individual character should be able to find a set of maneuvers that keep things interesting and fit his character. I am wondering if a more swordsage-like maneuver progression/recovery mechanic is appropriate at this point. It would fit the "lots of stuff to do, but less spamming" style I seem to be moving to. It would also make up for the situational aspect of some of them. Perhaps swordsage-2 maneuvers known, a readied progression that goes from 3 to 10, and standard action to recover? Swordsages would still get more maneuvers, and you avoid the automatic adaptive style feat tax.
I don't really like dilettante as a name -- the class is fairly versatile, but its not really a "jack of all trades" type class to me. Dilettante seems to have an implication of "its not actually good at anything," which isn't the feel I am trying to evoke. Admittedly, the feel I'm evoking seems to change after every post ...
Thanks for the help. This is my first homebrew, and I am probably making a bunch of beginner mistakes. I appreciate your patience.
Savage Cutthroat
saves are dex based
discipline skill: hide
discipline weapons: dagger, hand crossbow, sap, short sword, shortbow
Strike of the X maneuvers have range melee or 30ft ranged attack, all the other strikes have melee range.
1 - 0 prereqs
Brigand's Shelter: strike - gain 20% concealment against opponent
Strike of the Thief: strike - +2d6 damage vs flatfooted opponent
Murderer's Instinct: stance - gain sneak attack based on IL - 1-8: 1d6, 9-16: 2d6, 17+: 3d6
2 - 0 prereqs
Shadow Cloak: boost - hide, gain camouflage until end of turn
Umbral Shield: counter - use hide check instead of ac for attack
3 - 1 prereq
Lethal Blade: boost - gain 2d6+dex sneak attack
Brigand's Refuge: strike - gain 50% concealment against opponent
Silent Step: stance - sneak at full speed without penalty, gain +5 to hide and move silently
4 - 1 prereq
Strike of the Murderer: strike - +8d6 damage against flatfooted opponents
Greater Shadow Cloak: boost - hide, gain camouflage until your next turn
Marauder's Escape: boost - freedom of movement until the end of your turn
5 - 2 prereqs
Concussive Strike: strike - +5d6 damage, save or stun if flatfooted
Assassin's Eye: boost - ignore immunity to precision damage/critical hits
Swashbuckler's Grace: stance - island of blades flanking, +2 attack and +dex damage when flanking or denied dex bonus
6 - 2 prereqs
Brigand's Sanctuary: strike - gain 50% concealment for a round
Greater Lethal Blade: boost - gain 4d6+dex sneak attack
7 - 3 prereqs
Strike of the Assassin: strike - +15d6 damage against flatfooted opponents
8 - 3 prereqs
Greater Concussive Strike: strike - +10d6 damage, stun if flatfooted
9 - 4 prereqs
Shadowed Execution: strike - vs flatfooted opponent, save or die, 20d6 damage and stun if success
Thanks to playswithfire's Wandering Eye and unosarta's Fox's Guile for the inspiration for some of the maneuvers.Last edited by Retief; 2012-08-02 at 09:58 PM.
"Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend.
Inside of a dog, it is too dark to read."
Groucho Marx
Ineptitude - If you can't learn to do something well,
learn to enjoy doing it poorly.
Stupidity - Never underestimate the power of stupid
people in large groups.
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2012-08-01, 05:18 PM (ISO 8601)Bugbear in the Playground
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Re: [3.5 base class] Cunning Blade PEACH
1. Good find with Circling Vulture, this should work quite well. Originally Posted by Retief
2. I wouldn't say it is, a keen scimitar will yield a 30% chance of confirming a critical(assuming a hit). However, there is the rather sought after lightning mace aptitude(scimitar, kukri..etc) combo giving an extra attack for just rolling the confirmations. It is 20th level though so and it really doesn't increase battle capability, just wastes less actions.
3. I will get to this later on.
4. That might be reasonable, however I will talk about this with your custom discipline.
5. Not necessarily, it is just somebody who doesn't necessarily go through the lawful rigor of a profession with what they are good. Personally, it breaths in a sense of play in which many duelists and swashbucklers iconically are known for.
6. Okay now for your discipline, I am not sure if hide should be the basis of your key discipline. While it is on your list I think it should try to do more with fienting. While hiding at base maybe more effective theme constant reliance off cover doesn't seem to be thematic. I do like it can be done with ranged weapons, all base disciplines unless it has specified range can't(unless you get Bloodstorm Blade).
Maneuvers
Brigand's Shelter/Refuge-copies and second is lower level, others had a save. You need to think what kind this if it is illusory divinations poke right through it, darkness can be negated by daylight spell. Honestly, consider a skill check.
Greater Shadow Cloak-Is this suppose to be hide in plain sight or what?
Marauder's escape-Love this, its a keeper. If anything a little more can be done since you get this at the same level as many casters at the same level and the spell lasts a lot longer.
You have lots of sneak attack stacking you can easily get 20d6+dex. in the teens with items(not including craven). This is strictly better that Shadow Hand or even the Lurk.
In general I think this needs more definition. I know you want a martial rogue, but you are stomping on a good key discipline of the Swordsage while having the other good one with a better success rate. This leaves them with limited Desert Wind and Stone Dragon. In general the increased progression may be welcome but think about what I said here.
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2012-08-01, 05:20 PM (ISO 8601)Bugbear in the Playground
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Re: [3.5 base class] Cunning Blade PEACH
1. Good find with Circling Vulture, this should work quite well. Originally Posted by Retief
2. I wouldn't say it is, a keen scimitar will yield a 30% chance of confirming a critical(assuming a hit). However, there is the rather sought after lightning mace aptitude(scimitar, kukri..etc) combo giving an extra attack for just rolling the confirmations. It is 20th level though so and it really doesn't increase battle capability, just wastes less actions.
3. I will get to this later on.
4. That might be reasonable, however I will talk about this with your custom discipline.
5. Not necessarily, it is just somebody who doesn't necessarily go through the lawful rigor of a profession with what they are good. Personally, it breaths in a sense of play in which many duelists and swashbucklers iconically are known for.
6. Okay now for your discipline, I am not sure if hide should be the basis of your key discipline. While it is on your list I think it should try to do more with fienting. While hiding at base maybe more effective theme constant reliance off cover doesn't seem to be thematic. I do like it can be done with ranged weapons, all base disciplines unless it has specified range can't(unless you get Bloodstorm Blade).
Maneuvers
Brigand's Shelter/Refuge-copies and second is lower level, others had a save. You need to think what kind this if it is illusory divinations poke right through it, darkness can be negated by daylight spell. Honestly, consider a skill check.
Greater Shadow Cloak-Is this suppose to be hide in plain sight or what?
Marauder's escape-Love this, its a keeper. If anything a little more can be done since you get this at the same level as many casters at the same level and the spell lasts a lot longer.
You have lots of sneak attack stacking you can easily get 20d6+dex. in the teens with items(not including craven). This is strictly better that Shadow Hand or even the Lurk.
In general I think this needs more definition. I know you want a martial rogue, but you are stomping on a good key discipline of the Swordsage while having the other good one with a better success rate.This leaves them with limited Desert Wind and Stone Dragon. I say look at maximizing some more skill usage. In general the increased progression may be welcome but think about what I said here.
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2012-08-01, 06:31 PM (ISO 8601)Pixie in the Playground
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Re: [3.5 base class] Cunning Blade PEACH
For maneuver clarifications, Brigand's _____ is a sneaky pseudo-hide -- they can't quite figure out where you are (due to your awesome stealth abilities), so they have a chance to miss. For Shadow Cloak, you gain the ability hide without cover (similar to the ranger's camouflage ability) and initially make a free hide check (even if observed). After that hide check, if you are observed, you have no special ability to hide again (If you attack, you can try to snipe, though you take the normal -20 penalty). It will either make your opponent flatfooted for your first attack, let you flee battle (assuming you end your turn in a place with cover/concealment), or let you run past a guard (again assuming you end your turn in a place with cover/concealment). Greater Shadow Cloak simply keeps you hidden through other people's turn if you trigger it at the end of your turn (perhaps it should be level 5 or 6?).
Overall, I could go a more feinty, sleight of hand/bluffy route here, but I am trying to make up for the advantages Shadow Hand gives sneaky characters. In particular, I would want to keep the Shadow Cloak line, and I don't see that meshing well with feints. Eh, I guess it could work -- your great feinting skill gives you a chance to hide. I still would want to keep much of the focus on lots o sneak attack -- it'll still be less sneak attack then a rogue.
I am definitely not attached to the precise details of my discipline, and I do not want to render the swordsage obsolete, but I tried to stay under the power level of swordsage maneuvers. In particular, if I stack Greater Lethal Blade, Strike of the Assassin, Murderer's Instinct, and Insightful Strike (class feature) at level 17, I will deal +22d6+dex+int. Compare this to Death in the Dark, Assassin's Stance, Shadow Blade, Inferno Blade, and Discipline Focus: Shadow Hand, which deals +20d6+dex+wis+17 (17 IL for maxed out Murderer's Instinct). The end result is rather similar, but the swordsage averages 10 points more damage. As a side note, a rogue will be doing 9d6 sneak attack damage with 6 attacks per round, so the overall damage is reasonable.
In general, that is how I was trying to balance many of the maneuvers -- equal to or slightly worse than swordsage equivalents. Savage Cutthroat gets better sneak attack (though overall damage is still behind a swordsage), but Shadow Hand gets more debuffs/disablers. Also, most of the Savage Cutthroat maneuvers need a flatfooted target. Sure, the hide maneuvers can manufacture that, but you can't stack Lethal Blade at that point. Additionally, invisibility and teleports compare reasonably well with hide checks and freedom of movement. With freedom of movement, shadow hand isn't necessarily ahead, but it certainly isn't far behind.
That said, several of these things could stand to be turned down. In particular, Murderer's Instinct probably shouldn't advance per level (leaving it at flat 1d6 sneak attack). I have also been debating whether any/all of the damage maneuvers should be precision damage. On one hand, there are already enough builds that are worthless against undead. On the other hand, between other disciplines and Assassin's Eye, a character will definitely not be useless even against undead.
Overall, I am trying to get a base class that can cover several different "intelligent melee" archetypes. Focus on Setting Sun, Circling Vulture, jump/tumble, and social skills, and you get a swashbuckler. Focus on Savage Cutthroat and sneaky skills, and you get a rogue. My biggest issue is that I like the balance point overall. Unfortunately, it does seem a bit past the swordsage ...
One alternate option would be to use the swap rules that the author of the Circling Vulture designed (look farther up in the full thread). Basically, swordsages would be able to swap out a discipline of their choice for Circling Vulture. With that rule in place, the trade off would be (assuming stone dragon was swapped for circling vulture) swordsages get shadow hand, desert wind, more maneuvers known, and more maneuvers readied, and my class would get savage cutthroat, a marginally better maneuver recovery mechanic (standard action instead of full), and better class features/skills. The tradeoff seems much more reasonable now, and the advantages for my class lie mostly in class features and skills, which is what I originally was thinking. My class still has a significant identity -- crit fishing, the best martial sneak attack abilities, non-magical sneaking/tricks, and the best int synergies, but a swordsage still has an edge in overall maneuver power/versatility, as it should. I'm also starting to think that the class needs 8 skill points/level -- my group plays with pathfinderish perception and stealth, so I had forgotten just how many skill points hide/move silently/spot/listen/search eat up. This ends up being better than most stock classes when it comes to skill points (int focus + 8/level), but rogues are badly skill-poor as is.
As far as the name goes, no offense, but I just don't like dilettante that much. It's still probably better than my name, but I can't see it being a final name. One thing I have been tossing around is Scoundrel. Its a bit generic, but the class is as well. At the very least, while it is a book, it isn't a RAW class (apparently, it is a homebrew class on the dnd-wiki.org, but oh well -- I like mine better).
I greatly appreciate the help. The class in its current form is vastly superior overall than it was originally, and that is in large part due to your prodding. Thank you.Last edited by Retief; 2012-08-02 at 05:10 PM.
"Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend.
Inside of a dog, it is too dark to read."
Groucho Marx
Ineptitude - If you can't learn to do something well,
learn to enjoy doing it poorly.
Stupidity - Never underestimate the power of stupid
people in large groups.
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