Gunnerkrigg Court 3: Mystery Solved!

[memnarch]

So....Why does Coyote get dibs on the mind of man? Does that mean the Illuminati exist?

Nah, that means Coyote IS the Illuminati!

[Marnath]

So....Why does Coyote get dibs on the mind of man? Does that mean the Illuminati exist?

Who says he's the only force controlling the ether? Just because he uses it doesn't mean no one else does.

[Scowling Dragon]

Who says he's the only force controlling the ether? Just because he uses it doesn't mean no one else does.

So....Aliens also exist.

What about Clashing theories? Is the white house taken over by Alien Illuminati?

My point is not all human fantasy is God-based. Some are just aliens, illuminati, and racist fantasy.

And again I must ask: Do racist fantasies of Bigots come into existence?

Because what they babble isn't true. But when they die their mind goes into the ether and creates them?

[BRC]

And again I must ask: Do racist fantasies of Bigots come into existence?

Because what they babble isn't true. But when they die their mind goes into the ether and creates them?

I'm not sure. Coyote appears to exist because humans imagine a Power, not simply because they are delusional.

The man dying in the desert sees a coyote watching him. For him the coyote is a god, a being with great power over him, and so Coyote comes into existence. A Bigot imagines a threat, but not a power. Quite the opposite in fact, a Bigot's delusions are that HE is superior, and that his targets are subhuman.

That said, this talk of the Illuminati does raise a point for a parallel being to Coyote.

A man sits in prison, his life is ruined. He wonders Who has done this to him. Who has the power to punish him when he has done nothing (he sees as) wrong, and so he creates a Conspiracy. A shadowy group with godlike powers that is bent on persecuting him.

This is a delusion, just as the Coyote is not killing the man in the desert (The desert is doing that), the man in prison is not targeted by anything besides a regular system of laws. Perhaps he is innocent and his lawyer was incompetent, perhaps he is guilty but considers himself justified. Either way, he seeks explanation for his predicament, and "My lawyer was having an off day" simply won't cut it.

As for why Coyote is telling her this? Maybe he thinks it's necessary knowledge for a Medium, maybe he's just bored.

[Scowling Dragon]

I'm not sure. Coyote appears to exist because humans imagine a Power, not simply because they are delusional.

So yeah. GC world is both awesome and horrific.


Aliens that wan't to take over the world exist.

But Kind gods also exist.

And evil gods.

[Gez]

It's not just a question of imagining something and ta-da!, it's real.

It's a question of imagining intent and intelligence where there is none. "Hail destroyed my field, this means the God of the Sky wanted to punish me for some slight I caused him." A coyote finds a dying traveler in the desert, this means the coyote somehow led the traveler there (instead of merely being a lucky canid wandering within sniffing distance of an easy meal).

If you believe that some shadowy conspiracy is responsible for you getting stuck in a traffic jam and being late for work, however, the delusion isn't because the other drivers actually had no intent at all; it's because their intents had actually nothing to do with you. (Except that green Ford with the broken headlight. That one really was out to get you.)

[BRC]

It's not just a question of imagining something and ta-da!, it's real.

It's a question of imagining intent and intelligence where there is none. "Hail destroyed my field, this means the God of the Sky wanted to punish me for some slight I caused him." A coyote finds a dying traveler in the desert, this means the coyote somehow led the traveler there (instead of merely being a lucky canid wandering within sniffing distance of an easy meal).

If you believe that some shadowy conspiracy is responsible for you getting stuck in a traffic jam and being late for work, however, the delusion isn't because the other drivers actually had no intent at all; it's because their intents had actually nothing to do with you. (Except that green Ford with the broken headlight. That one really was out to get you.)

You're still imagining Intent, creating a force where none exists.

A hundred drivers, all trying to work, all pick the same road, leading to a traffic jam. You imagine that it's orchestrated by a conspiracy, that the conspiracy brought the cars there to make you late for work. You are creating the Conspiracy, with the power to control these cars and the intent to make you late. Just because those drivers have actual intentions (Just as the coyote in the desert has an actual intention to eat you once you are dead), does not change the nature of your delusion.

[Mewtarthio]

So yeah. GC world is both awesome and horrific.


Aliens that wan't to take over the world exist.

But Kind gods also exist.

And evil gods.

This assumes that every imagined thing becomes its own discrete entity. For example, the man in the desert believes the coyote-god tricked him, thus creating a "real" coyote-god, while the man in prison believes the Illuminati plotted against him, thus creating the Illuminati. Coyote could very well be an amalgam of all these things. Notice how he says, "[Man] sees a mountain crumble and says, 'Only a god could do this!' and so I am born!" The man simply attributes the quake to a god, not a coyote-god.

Coyote is not simply one god who was born from a dying man's delusion. He is every god that any human has imagined on his deathbed. He is also every deranged conspiracy, every flight of fancy, every act of imagination that gives life to the lifeless. He is the storm god that a sailor curses, the vast conspiracy that brings order to a chaotic bureaucracy, and the pencil named "Steve" that Jeff breaks in the Community pilot.

No wonder he's so crazy.

[Landis963]

Also, I think only the dead get to create gods this way. So a prisoner on death row who goes to the chair believing that some conspiracy put him there would create such a conspiracy, the person in the traffic jam wouldn't unless he died in a car accident or something.

[BRC]

This assumes that every imagined thing becomes its own discrete entity. For example, the man in the desert believes the coyote-god tricked him, thus creating a "real" coyote-god, while the man in prison believes the Illuminati plotted against him, thus creating the Illuminati. Coyote could very well be an amalgam of all these things. Notice how he says, "[Man] sees a mountain crumble and says, 'Only a god could do this!' and so I am born!" The man simply attributes the quake to a god, not a coyote-god.

Coyote is not simply one god who was born from a dying man's delusion. He is every god that any human has imagined on his deathbed. He is also every deranged conspiracy, every flight of fancy, every act of imagination that gives life to the lifeless. He is the storm god that a sailor curses, the vast conspiracy that brings order to a chaotic bureaucracy, and the pencil named "Steve" that Jeff breaks in the Community pilot.

No wonder he's so crazy.

If this is the case (and it should be at least partially true, or else we would be up to our elbows in delusion-gods) why is it that, of all the countless myths that make him up, the Coyote is dominant? Maybe that is an especially strong form, or maybe that's just his preferred form.

Or maybe there are places like Gillete Woods and The Court all over the world, and Coyote is just part of some Diety Exchange Program. Over in Area 51 the mystical desert creatures are led by a sea god created in the minds of drowning sailors.

[Mauve Shirt]

If Coyote is THE MYTH, why are there different guides? Why are there territory disputes? There are guides for nonhumans too, what happens to Ketrak's insect souls, do they go to Coyote?

[Landis963]

If Coyote is THE MYTH, why are there different guides? Why are there territory disputes? There are guides for nonhumans too, what happens to Ketrak's insect souls, do they go to Coyote?

This. Why can't Renard (a mythical French trickster) and Ysengrin (another French folktale character, rival to Renard) be the same thing as Coyote?

Of course, there are the flipsides to this as well. Where ARE all the delusion-gods? What's up with Kat's ether-face? And many, many other questions that this revelation, like all the rest, bring up.

[Scowling Dragon]

And what was with the "I DON'T EXIIIIIIIIIIIST" Bullcrap.

He exists. He just told her how he was made.

Do I "Not EXIIIIIIIIIIIIST" if I was caused by a pregnancy?

And pretty much yeah. Why a coyote? People haven't worshipped nature for hundreds of years.

[stsasser]

This is Coyote's creation myth.

If Reynardine and Ysengrin want to tell their versions, they can just wait their turn.

[Capt. Ido Nos]

I am not sold on this as being Coyote's creation story, if only for the fact because otherwise, Coyote would not have been present at the creation of humans for him to then not hear correctly, and then subsequently botch the creation of the glass-eyed men. That's just a TAD bit circular for what Tom normally does. We'll see though, we'll see.

[Giggling Ghast]

I am not sold on this as being Coyote's creation story, if only for the fact because otherwise, Coyote would not have been present at the creation of humans for him to then not hear correctly, and then subsequently botch the creation of the glass-eyed men. That's just a TAD bit circular for what Tom normally does. We'll see though, we'll see.

Unless he, through his creation, pops into the beginning of existence retroactively.

Coyote was never there, but by making him, suddenly he was. Savvy?

[Mono Vertigo]

And what was with the "I DON'T EXIIIIIIIIIIIST" Bullcrap.

It's one of those setting where "existence" is more a property of objects than an prerequisite, I suppose. Let's say "existence" here means "doesn't obey rules of physics, and can't 'live' purely on its own/needs an immaterial source to maintain its 'life' ".
Zimmy's hallucinations don't exist. They still affect people caught in them, but don't obey the normal rules of physics, and Zimmy's their only source. Once her mental states becomes stable enough again, bam, they disappear.
Coyote, similarly, wasn't born or built the regular way. He just is, because of the ether, though he shouldn't be in the material world, and certainly doesn't respect its rules. We can only suppose that if dying creatures stop bringing stories and beliefs into the ether (or stop dying altogether), then he would stop being, as well.
Humans exist. They were born in a material way, obey all the rules of physics, and keep living if their parents die. Jeanne's ghost exists. She was created in a specific way, and obeys the rules of physics relevant to her current state. As far as we know, she won't disappear if we get rid of everyone aware of her existence or anything else that helped make her.

[Mauve Shirt]

Gods swim in the ether. Gunnerkrigg is man's attempt to become a God. Could this have something to do with the study of Zimmy, who occasionally "swims" in something like the ether, and with the ether-harvesting power plant?
And does Coyote want Jeanne destroyed because she hasn't entered the ether?

Also, unrelated, I'm still wondering why Kat looks like a warrior bird thing to Zimmy.

[Landis963]

And does Coyote want Jeanne destroyed because she hasn't entered the ether?

But Coyote didn't give Annie that quest. Muut did, with the express purpose of guiding Jeanne into the ether. I'm not sure Coyote even knows Jeanne's name.

[Marnath]

I think Coyote's "I do not exist!" statement is maybe like Obi-Wan's cop-out to Luke. No it wasn't true from a certain point of view, it's a straight falsehood. If Coyote exists in the Ether that counts. He could have said instead that he doesn't exist in our world, and that would have been more accurate. But where's the fun in not being dramatic?

This also solves why Ysen is so angry. He hates people, and hates that he only exists because of them.


Last panel, Coyote is still such a jerk. Aaagghhh!

[eee]

But Coyote didn't give Annie that quest. Muut did, with the express purpose of guiding Jeanne into the ether. I'm not sure Coyote even knows Jeanne's name.

This is true. The Pyschopomps know there's a trapped soul there, but have no idea how to help her or even how to approach her safely. Which is why Muut (rather irresponsibly) gave the job to Annie...

As for Coyote, it is hard to tell what what he knows, beyond that there's something in the chasm that kills anything from the Forest that tries to cross. He may know the whole story and ALSO be perfectly happy to dump the mess into Annie's lap.

RE this strip: This is going to give Annie a lot to think and stew over, especially with regard to her mother. And how to approach Ysengrin after this without triggering his negative feelings.

[Ravens_cry]

Ah, interesting. Frankly, I'm not sure I like the idea of such an afterlife if it is implying what I think it is implying.

[BRC]

This seems relevant to recent discussions.
https://i.chzbgr.com/completestore/1...ZfZL93CVA2.png

[stsasser]

This seems relevant to recent discussions.
https://i.chzbgr.com/completestore/1...ZfZL93CVA2.png

Yeah, I have trouble understanding a mind that thinks traffic control is NOT a conspiracy.

[Mewtarthio]

Ah, interesting. Frankly, I'm not sure I like the idea of such an afterlife if it is implying what I think it is implying.

Anne doesn't seem too fond of it either. And Coyote is loving this.

[Scowling Dragon]

What is it implying? Or did I already get it?

[Imgran]

What is it implying? Or did I already get it?

To sum it up in stark terms, it's implying that Annie literally fed her mother to the gods. Also played-with-fire kid and anyone else Annie helped the Psychopomps collect.

[memnarch]

To sum it up in stark terms, it's implying that Annie literally fed her mother to the gods. Also played-with-fire kid and anyone else Annie helped the Psychopomps collect.

Not so much with her mother. Remember the psychopomps didn't come because annie took everything.

[Tono]

So that means its more then just Surma's life force, but also ll her thoughts, fears, and ideals that are 'in' Annie in some way shape or form, right? Its more(Well, more then I thought) then just what makes her live, but what makes her, her, correct?

...

So does that mean Daddy could have been trying to 'pull' Surma out of Annie?

[memnarch]

So that means its more then just Surma's life force, but also ll her thoughts, fears, and ideals that are 'in' Annie in some way shape or form, right? Its more(Well, more then I thought) then just what makes her live, but what makes her, her, correct?

...

So does that mean Daddy could have been trying to 'pull' Surma out of Annie?

Maybe? The comic wasn't very specific.