Erfworld Thread X: A Series of Unfortunate Cliffhangers

[Razade]

ALMOST. But after what he has done, I can't.

Yeah....I actually think this makes it all worse frankly. He's basically implied to have done a crime more heinous than we could ever do to a person in our own world and he's not remorseful at all for it and tries to rationalize it by "well, we're all broken so whatever. I'm trying to make people not broken." That....that's prime serial killer territory. Which fits his Signomancy.

[Anteros]

Can't say I feel bad for him at all. Even if he feels like he's doing the right thing currently, he's still a psychopath who deserves anything he gets.

[Otomodachi]

Just felt like a wasted update to me. Literally everything we get here coulda been a couple paragraphs in a better update. Wheeeeee. I hope someone out there enjoyed it, no sarcasm, cuz this was super frustrating for me after a skip day. Why does it STILL surprise me when this happens?

[deuterio12]

Yeah....I actually think this makes it all worse frankly. He's basically implied to have done a crime more heinous than we could ever do to a person in our own world and he's not remorseful at all for it and tries to rationalize it by "well, we're all broken so whatever. I'm trying to make people not broken." That....that's prime serial killer territory. Which fits his Signomancy.

To play devil's advocate, he exists in a world where anybody with enough money can hire Charlie to send his archons to be their personal dolls before snuffing them out.

We have hippiemancers magicking up uber drugs and thinkmancers helping with lobotomizing people and predictmancers just going "you don't matter to Fate so I can do whatever I want with you."

At least the dollmancer pauses to consider if what he's doing is wrong, while many others go around torturing and killing in all sorts of exotic ways without a moment's hesitation.

[Razade]

To play devil's advocate, he exists in a world where anybody with enough money can hire Charlie to send his archons to be their personal dolls before snuffing them out.

Not even close. People hire prostitures and murder them here on Earth. Disgusting sure, but nowhere near as bad as what Bill has done. Nothing could be worse than what Bill has done. Ripping a part of a person's soul out of them, putting it into a giant voodoo doll and then...doing stuff to them. Let's not even worry about the voyeurism aspects, the non-consensual voyeurism aspects of what Bill's done.

Let's just focus on the "stealing part of your soul" bit and then using it to touch you. There's nothing on Earth that could be worse than Soul Rape. Not just regular sexual rape. But the rape of your very essence. Of your being, robbing you of your self. Nothing any human could do could reach that level. Only in Erf. Or any other setting with Souls and Magic and stuff I guess.

Still, Bill isn't to be pitied, even if he feels remorse. He still did the actions. His remorse didn't stop him.

We have hippiemancers magicking up uber drugs

Yeah, who cares? Even if we wanted to discuss if drugs are bad mkay (not a discussion we can have here) it wouldn't even come close to murdering a prostitute. Which means it doesn't even come into spitting distance of Soul Rape.

and thinkmancers helping with lobotomizing people

Yeah, against their will. Pretty bad. Getting closer to that whole "soul rape's the worst thing you can do to someone" level.

and predictmancers just going "you don't matter to Fate so I can do whatever I want with you."

Yeah...except in this world they can prove it with math and magic. It's also not shown as a positive. No one is trying to make Marie look sympathetic. Unlike Bill.

At least the dollmancer pauses to consider if what he's doing is wrong, while many others go around torturing and killing in all sorts of exotic ways without a moment's hesitation.

See above. He didn't come to the conclusion that he was wrong. He took....we don't really know how long but not long enough...to consider if raping someone on such an intrinsic level as their very being and came to the answer that it was fine. That makes him worse. Because he knew, at least on some level, what he was doing was wrong. But he did it any way.

Bill's a monster. Maybe the worst in the series.

[deuterio12]

Not even close. People hire prostitures and murder them here on Earth. Disgusting sure, but nowhere near as bad as what Bill has done. Nothing could be worse than what Bill has done. Ripping a part of a person's soul out of them, putting it into a giant voodoo doll and then...doing stuff to them. Let's not even worry about the voyeurism aspects, the non-consensual voyeurism aspects of what Bill's done.

Let's just focus on the "stealing part of your soul" bit and then using it to touch you. There's nothing on Earth that could be worse than Soul Rape. Not just regular sexual rape. But the rape of your very essence. Of your being, robbing you of your self. Nothing any human could do could reach that level. Only in Erf. Or any other setting with Souls and Magic and stuff I guess.

What self? Non-commander units in Erfworld only get to blindly follow orders or default to auto-attack. Duty and Loyalty and Fate always pulling your strings. Your leader can fully erase you from existence with a word. I'll take a broken soul but still able to act than being wiped out into nothingness thank you very much.

Still, Bill isn't to be pitied, even if he feels remorse. He still did the actions. His remorse didn't stop him.

Bill eventually did stop. The previous doll was disabled and stored.

And Maggie Doll has been proving extremely useful for Maggie herself of all things.

Yeah, who cares? Even if we wanted to discuss if drugs are bad mkay (not a discussion we can have here) it wouldn't even come close to murdering a prostitute. Which means it doesn't even come into spitting distance of Soul Rape.

Maggie's recovered pretty well, while Charlie's a permanent cripple with a foot in the grave and plenty of other erf people suffered long agonizing deaths thanks to hippiemancer's uber drugs.

Yeah, against their will. Pretty bad. Getting closer to that whole "soul rape's the worst thing you can do to someone" level.

Really does it look like Maggie's in extreme suffering right now or as she been permanently crippled in any way?

Yeah...except in this world they can prove it with math and magic. It's also not shown as a positive. No one is trying to make Marie look sympathetic. Unlike Bill.

Predictmancers as a whole have been portrayed as bright nice people working by themselves in magic land. Bill's the one who gets stuck with the gimp suit working for the vampire mafia.

Plus again, Bill's doll proved a new invaluable asset for team GK.

See above. He didn't come to the conclusion that he was wrong. He took....we don't really know how long but not long enough...to consider if raping someone on such an intrinsic level as their very being and came to the answer that it was fine. That makes him worse. Because he knew, at least on some level, what he was doing was wrong. But he did it any way.

Understanding you're doing something wrong is necessary before you can stop it. One step at a time, which Charlie and the thinkmancer/predictmancers haven't done yet.

Bill's a monster. Maybe the worst in the series.

Sure, ignore Charlie manipulating half the sides to dance to his tune or the thinkmancers/hippiemancers actually crippling countless people. Maggie's got off pretty well all in all compared to how she would be if she had experienced magic lobotomy or was hooked up to heroine.

[Razade]

What self? Non-commander units in Erfworld only get to blindly follow orders or default to auto-attack. Duty and Loyalty and Fate always pulling your strings. Your leader can fully erase you from existence with a word. I'll take a broken soul but still able to act than being wiped out into nothingness thank you very much.

Maggie and Bunny are commander units. They're the two in question. I guess that makes it even MORE ok to just use an Archon and toss them because they're not REALLY people. They're just dolls. Makes the parallel even worse if this is the track you wanna go down.

Bill eventually did stop. The previous doll was disabled and stored.

Forced. Forced to stop. He didn't stop on his own, he seems rather upset he was stopped. Upset that Bunny and Maggie hate him for what he did. He didn't stop because he felt remorse. He stopped because he was ordered too.

And Maggie Doll has been proving extremely useful for Maggie herself of all things.

Hey, rape's fine if you get something out of it later. Good to know.

Maggie's recovered pretty well, while Charlie's a permanent cripple with a foot in the grave and plenty of other erf people suffered long agonizing deaths thanks to hippiemancer's uber drugs.

Has she? Doesn't seem she's gotten over the mental damage it's done to her. But I guess since it's not a physical trauma it doesn't matter.

And yep, drugs will do that if you use them a lot. That still doesn't make it as bad as raping a person's soul.

Really does it look like Maggie's in extreme suffering right now or as she been permanently crippled in any way?

Again, who cares? She doesn't seem to have gotten over it either and she doesn't really have a lot of.....

Why am I arguing this? She had her soul raped, as did Bunny. It doesn't matter if she can park in the handicapped spot afterwards or not.

The thinkmancers as a whole are consistely portrayed as higher enlightened beings wearing the skin of stupidworld genius. Bill's the one who gets stuck with the gimp suit working for the vampire mafia.

No they're not. What series have you been reading? The Thinkimancers have been shown time and time again to be a terrible force in the series, only Charlie being worse because he can do what they can do and more. They are not meant to be a positive force, they were never cast as being a positive force and THEY portrayed themselves as enlightened which was to demonstrate that they were full of themselves.

Understanding you're doing something wrong is necessary before you can stop it. One step at a time, which Charlie and the thinkmancer/predictmancers haven't done yet.

Neither has Bill. First chance he had to make another Bunny-Doll, he took it.

Sure, ignore Charlie manipulating half the sides to dance to his tune or the thinkmancers actually crippling countless people. Maggie's got off pretty well all in all.

I'm not ignoring it. I can find more than one thing questionable or despicable at a time. I can also call a spade a spade and say that even if Charlie kills a million people, it pales to the conscious, purposeful, fully with intent, desire to rape a person in such a fundamental and raw manner as to permanently leave the person open and exposed to any kind of voyeuristic, perverse pleasure a person could hope to do. Even if, after all is said and done, Maggie gets a neat little trick out of the deal. ESPECIALLY if Rob tries to sell it as somehow better or less depraved because "Maggie's fine and now she's got unlimited juice".

[lord_khaine]

I can also call a spade a spade

You can also call a spade a horrible rape tool (it helps hide the bodies), to help spin your argument for why they should be banned. But it does not provide an actualy objective argument for why what Bill has done is bad.

So far all i can see is that he has done is some research into trying to make sentient dolls.

[Razade]

You can also call a spade a horrible rape tool (it helps hide the bodies)

Or penetrate people with it. Or just spank them with it. Spade's a mutli-purpose tool if you're not too squimish on how you use it. A digression, however.

, to help spin your argument for why they should be banned. But it does not provide an actualy objective argument for why what Bill has done is bad.

I never said it should be banned, for one.

For second, however, I don't think I need to lodge much more of an argument than "he stole a portion of Bunny's and Maggie's G-String which is literally the soul/life of an Erfworld unit and then uses it to animate a copy/voodoo doll of theirs to spy on them and their thoughts, and touch them without actually touching them". Being able to violate someone so fully, in every form of the word, is about as heinous an act as I can think of. I mean...if that's not an objective argument to what Bill did being wrong...wow....'sall I can say.

So far all i can see is that he has done is some research into trying to make sentient dolls.

Then you should probably re-read Bunny and Maggie's perspective on the matter. They certainly don't feel like that's all he did.

[keybounce]

If you want to talk about "soul rape", let's talk about book 1. The linkup. Let's talk about Misty.

Let's not forget that thinkamancers can protect themselves, and sending damage to the others. Or that Maggie suddenly became too tired to respond to her superior.

Who's the bigger monster: Parson in book one, Maggie in book one, Bill currently, Vanna, Charles, or someone else?

Actually, here's a better question. Who have we seen that is actually a nice person?

[halfeye]

For second, however, I don't think I need to lodge much more of an argument than "he stole a portion of Bunny's and Maggie's G-String which is literally the soul/life of an Erfworld unit and then uses it to animate a copy/voodoo doll of theirs to spy on them and their thoughts, and touch them without actually touching them". Being able to violate someone so fully, in every form of the word, is about as heinous an act as I can think of. I mean...if that's not an objective argument to what Bill did being wrong...wow....'sall I can say.

Bill's signamancy is all about Buffalo Bill from Silence of the lambs. He has that hole that Bill had, and instead of prisoners he has a monster that he made in it. He may be a fool despite that, but he's got a lot of work to do to get up to the level of normal.

[Welf]

I am going to be honest: the whole wife-beater and soul-rapists theme of the arc is a bit tiresome.

[tyckspoon]

Actually, here's a better question. Who have we seen that is actually a nice person?

Janis? At least, I don't think we've seen any indication of what her Hidden Evil Plan is yet.

[DataNinja]

Actually, here's a better question. Who have we seen that is actually a nice person?

Sizemore, I'd argue.

[Anteros]

Actually, here's a better question. Who have we seen that is actually a nice person?

Tramennis, Sizemore, pre decrypt Ansom (arguably), Jack, Ace, Cubbins...actually most of Jetstone seemed like good people. Janice, Bunny...that's all I can think of for now.

It's just that most of the "good" characters have been antagonists because our protagonists are terrible awful people with almost no redeeming qualities.

[Razade]

If you want to talk about "soul rape", let's talk about book 1. The linkup. Let's talk about Misty.

Let's not forget that thinkamancers can protect themselves, and sending damage to the others. Or that Maggie suddenly became too tired to respond to her superior.

Who's the bigger monster: Parson in book one, Maggie in book one, Bill currently, Vanna, Charles, or someone else?

Actually, here's a better question. Who have we seen that is actually a nice person?

Bill. The answer is Bill. Charlie's a close second. Parson and Maggie...eh. Parson's done some genocide. That's par for the course of a war game. No character hasn't killed someone in Erfworld. He's just done it better and bigger. Maggie...was selfish and let someone die in the link up. Pretty rough, pretty cruel but the big thing is she's changed from that.

Bill, as I've banged on about, has raped two characters in a way we can never do in our own world. In a world where genocide is normal, rape is the top.

Bill's signamancy is all about Buffalo Bill from Silence of the lambs. He has that hole that Bill had, and instead of prisoners he has a monster that he made in it. He may be a fool despite that, but he's got a lot of work to do to get up to the level of normal.

Well aware.

[Aquillion]

Actually, here's a better question. Who have we seen that is actually a nice person?

Keeping in mind the very, very important distinction that "nice" doesn't mean "perfect" - and, in fact, doesn't even mean "good" - several people qualify.

Sizemore, most obviously, as other people have said. Ace. Janis (she's not perfect, but her motivations are clearly good, and she's generally kind.) Vinnie. Jack Snipe. Jed. Tramennis, even if he can be a bit snarky. Benny. Even post-decryption Ansom isn't that bad, especially later on as he mellows out a bit more. That's like a third of the major recurring cast (and another third would probably fall under "ambiguous" rather than "definitely not nice".)

Some of them could do nasty things now and then, but usually only with good reason. Any of them seem like they'd be fun to spend a few days with provided they weren't actively on an opposing side in a war or something like that.

It's just that most of the "good" characters have been antagonists because our protagonists are terrible awful people with almost no redeeming qualities.

Being a bit harsh there. Most of them do have redeeming qualities.

Parson is mostly a decent person who sometimes seems to fall into the trap of thinking of things like a game and therefore not fully recognizing the human consequences of his decisions. (Also, his book one actions were under the influence of the Ruthlessness sword, remember.)

Wanda can be really awful at times, but it's worth pointing out that she's one of the few people in the setting who definitely, genuinely wants to avoid wasting life. The problem with her isn't that she's a terrible person, it's more to do with her fatalism - she does awful things because she believes that she'd be dooming the world to even more awful things if she didn't. That doesn't totally justify her actions, of course, but I don't think it makes her an awful person, either (Fate in Erfworld is definitely real, after all.) I'd say she's a decent person who has some awful beliefs.

Maggie... I think she's somewhat similar to Wanda, actually, but replace "blind, indoctrinated loyalty to Fate" with "blind, indoctrinated loyalty to the Great Minds." I think she's been a pretty nasty character up until now if you strip out our tendency to like her because she's on our side, but I think we might see a different side of her now that her worldview has been shattered.

Post-decryption Ansom isn't actually that bad. He's got a bit of a stick up his boop still, and sure, he's a bit of a fanatic, but he's genuinely trying to improve the world and help people - he sees decryption as a way to free everyone, save lives, and ultimately end the constant warfare by uniting everyone under one banner. He's not really wrong, either. Additionally, while he's pretentious about nobility, he does take it seriously as a code of conduct that he tries to adhere to himself. I mean, that doesn't make him a good person, but I don't think it's fair to dismiss him as a terrible awful person with no redeeming qualities.

Even Stanley, while he's a pretty awful person... I do feel that a lot of his problem is that he's been infected with Wanda's fatalism, which he only partially understands. And another part of the problem is that he's been promoted way above his competence level. Picture an AU where he's a boisterous lieutenant under a better leader and I think he'd come across much better.

[deuterio12]

Bill. The answer is Bill. Charlie's a close second. Parson and Maggie...eh. Parson's done some genocide. That's par for the course of a war game. No character hasn't killed someone in Erfworld. He's just done it better and bigger. Maggie...was selfish and let someone die in the link up. Pretty rough, pretty cruel but the big thing is she's changed from that.

Bill, as I've banged on about, has raped two characters in a way we can never do in our own world. In a world where genocide is normal, rape is the top.

What do you call Maggie shattering Jack's mind then? The poor foolmancer was clearly left a complete wreck, unable to even cast or talk properly for several updates, and has ever since been in a slow recovery. And did Maggie ever even apologize, showed any regret? Not that I remember.

But more in point, if what Maggie experienced was truly that horrible she could've already had her revenge. Just could've told Hamster to go in a shooting spree at Tee Vee. Instead Maggie went "got bigger fish to fry than Bill. Like Charlie." The character you claim has been traumatized more than anybody else has already put it behind her and went back to aiming for one of the actual top monsters in the story, big C himself.

Even if, after all is said and done, Maggie gets a neat little trick out of the deal. ESPECIALLY if Rob tries to sell it as somehow better or less depraved because "Maggie's fine and now she's got unlimited juice".

Maggie could've had the doll destroyed too. But instead she kept it around. So yes Maggie herself considers having unlimited juice pretty darn useful. Real world rape victims don't keep mementos of their trauma around willingly.

[Yana]

Spoiler

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Well. That was a mercifully speedy resolution.

[Leewei]

Bwahahaha!

[DigoDragon]

Spoiler

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Well. That was a mercifully speedy resolution.

Spoiler: Newest

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Oh thank Titans he went someplace useful. "Home".

Good for Jed with his fast thinking there to flood the room.

[deuterio12]

Spoiler

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So the archon's calling Hamster chief warlord. Great, looks like Stanley still has his best commander!

[Killer Angel]

Spoiler: undefined

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so much for Charlie's "big game"

[Razade]

Thank. Goodness.

Seriously, I wasn't looking forward to Parson going back to Stupid World and dealing with getting back. The question will be, now, how to get Maggie and Jack back to the capital city but I imagine that's a very small issue compared to what it could have been. Honestly having a few ambassadors in TV is probably not a bad idea when all is said and done. If Parson, and Vinne for that matter, are really serious about being allies for realsies...well probably shouldn't look much deeper into what we've got. Rob can still screw this up big time.

[HandofShadows]

Hmm. We can't see Parson's feet and did he have a sword before?

[DigoDragon]

Hmm. We can't see Parson's feet and did he have a sword before?

Yeah, he did have the sword on him before. You can see it in the last image of this text update.

[Welf]

Thank. Goodness.

Seriously, I wasn't looking forward to Parson going back to Stupid World and dealing with getting back. The question will be, now, how to get Maggie and Jack back to the capital city but I imagine that's a very small issue compared to what it could have been. Honestly having a few ambassadors in TV is probably not a bad idea when all is said and done. If Parson, and Vinne for that matter, are really serious about being allies for realsies...well probably shouldn't look much deeper into what we've got. Rob can still screw this up big time.

I was looking forward. At some point Parson has to go to Stupidworld or someone has to come back and bring the last arkentool. If that doesn't happen now it means that will come later and the story takes another few turns.Plus I'd be curious what the rest of the cast would do without their messiah.

[Razade]

I was looking forward. At some point Parson has to go to Stupidworld or someone has to come back and bring the last arkentool. If that doesn't happen now it means that will come later and the story takes another few turns.Plus I'd be curious what the rest of the cast would do without their messiah.

You have a great deal of certainty about something we don't even know is coming. Dorothy also loses the shoes in the original story, so there's no reason to think she took them back to Kansas with her. Or if the Kansas she went to was the same one Parson's has. Judy doesn't look like a Earth Human, after all.

[The Glyphstone]

WMG here, but what if, the next time we get a close-up of Parson, he's wearing the Shoes? Maybe the spell did work, he went to Stupidworld, but found Judy and came back. Erf running on Turns could have it completely temporally disconnected from any sort of real-world time passage.

Granted, this is incredibly unlikely. But it might happen.

[deuterio12]

Granted, this is incredibly unlikely. But it might happen.

So Hamster went around in Stupidworld for days/weeks/months searching for Judy wearing the exact same set of clothes?

Good thing Jed gave him a big bath first thing.