Int and Cha based non-core party

[Ardantis]

The best stats in DnD are Intelligence and Charisma

Outside of abilities and spells, they only affect skills, so spells and abilities are balanced to give them more weight.

Ex. Cha and Int based spells lists (Wiz and Sorc) have access to more intentionally absurd spells than Wis based lists.

Int and Cha based classes have access to stronger abilities than other classes (at their tier, generally).

Heck, mental stat based classes dominate the Tiers (mostly due to spellcasting, but still).

Also, unchecked Int leads to madness, while unchecked Cha leads to sociopathy.

How crazy/dangerous would a party be if it consisted of:

Binder
Warblade
Factotum
Beguiler
Bard

It's basically a pot of madness and unchecked self-regard!

[Tingel]

Also, unchecked Int leads to madness, while unchecked Cha leads to sociopathy.

They do?





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[Zanos]

They do?

You could argue that. A massive sense of self importance(CHA) or just incredible genius(INT) could lead to world outlooks that are very bizarre, especially when not balanced with a good amount of perspective(WIS).

And the example party looks like a pretty solid tier 3 arrangement. They should be able to handle a very wide variety of challenges competently.

[HaikenEdge]

I'm not clear on what you're meaning to discuss, but if you're looking for a powerful and dangerous non-core Int- & Cha-based party, I'd suggest the following:

Spell-to-Power Erudite
Archivist with a splash of Beguiler and Alternate Spell Source
Factotum
Warblade

I could make the argument that Warblade isn't even necessary, since the Archivist can use Divine Power, and the StP Erudite will have learned the Arcane version from the Archivist.

And what you have regarding madness/sociopathy have nothing to do with the rules, so unless you're house-ruling it, it doesn't apply at all.

[Ardantis]

Thank you for your kind approach to my perspective, Zanos.

Haiken, I suggested Tier 3 classes because it's fairly well accepted that Tier 1s are powerful and dangerous, core or non-core, and I wanted to investigate the cha and int based classes on a more sensible level.

As far as what I was attempting to (successfully) discuss, it was the idea that the values behind the stats and on which they are based lead characters that are Int and Cha based (and yes, lacking Wis) to be a little crazy and unusual, not to mention generally being characters with stronger abilities but weaker chassis.

I resent the implication that a discussion on the feel and values of the mechanics as they stand in the licensed material be dismissed as house-ruling.

[Alex12]

First off, since when are Bards non-core?

Second, if you want unchecked madness and self-regard, look no further than the average Dread Necromancer. Pretty much everything they've got keys of Charisma. Spells? Charisma. Rebuking? Charisma. Number of undead controlled? Charisma (a level 8 DN can reasonably expect to be able to match or beat a level 16 cleric or wizard in terms of number of undead controlled). Concentration checks? Charisma (once they turn undead, anyway, which approximately all of them do or are aiming for)

And I think it's reasonable to assume the average Dread Necromancer is a raging ball of arrogance and ego.

[TuggyNE]

I resent the implication that a discussion on the feel and values of the mechanics as they stand in the licensed material be dismissed as house-ruling.

But ... where in the licensed material are Int and Cha associated, directly or indirectly in any way, with either madness or sociopathy? What basis for this exists within the rules?

If there is none, then the implication is in fact precisely and wholly accurate.

[Alex12]

But ... where in the licensed material are Int and Cha associated, directly or indirectly in any way, with either madness or sociopathy? What basis for this exists within the rules?

If there is none, then the implication is in fact precisely and wholly accurate.

Heroes of Horror, taint rules.
Undead and evil outsiders get depravity based on their Charisma.
Furthermore, Wisdom determines your ability to resist that sort of thing.

Not saying it's a lot (and I can't come up with anything for Int) but it's something.

[TuggyNE]

Heroes of Horror, taint rules.
Undead and evil outsiders get depravity based on their Charisma.
Furthermore, Wisdom determines your ability to resist that sort of thing.

Not saying it's a lot (and I can't come up with anything for Int) but it's something.

Fair enough. To me that looks more like "Charisma magnifies the effect of certain disorders that are endemic among undead and evil outsiders", but I suppose it's possible to draw a different conclusion. However, I don't think it's possible to say in general that that evidence alone is proof that high Cha leads to sociopathy, since it only works on a one and a quarter creature types; nearly all playable races are left out of that.

[HaikenEdge]

There are separate sanity rules in Unearthed Arcana where sanity itself is a separate attribute not based on any of the six base attributes, even if Insanity can lead to penalties to certain mental attribute-based checks, saves, etc.

Taint itself is basically caused by exposure to evil, leading to corruption and depravity, and actually has little to do with a character's ability scores in terms of having them as a causal relationship; in the case of creatures of the Evil subtype and the undead type, that's a instance of specific overriding general, so it's the mentioned creatures that are instanced by the mention.

[Gemini476]

Madness is more associated with low Wisdom if anything, what with Willing Deformity(Madness) and so on.

Sociopathy does not, to my knowledge, have any direct link to Charisma - not in the sense of "high/low Charisma means you're a sociopath (or being a sociopath lowers/raises your Charisma", at least.