Death Battle III Not Even Internally Consistent

[Traab]

It's a totally irreverent comment to this discussion.,

I'm more thinking along the lines of we only see them start to move, and the end of the move. That doesn't mean that their opponents didn't see them move at all (unless that's explicitly stated later). The character might have just been a blur to them, but still visible, but the artist didn't bother to show that.

I liked the ichigo/byakuya fight where ichigo goes bankai for the first time and it is explicitly stated that he moved so fast he vanished for an instant from byakuyas sight only to realize ichigo was right in front of him with his sword at his throat. This from the captain who is pretty damn explicitly among the fastest of the shinigami captains as well, so you know he has really good senses and would be really good at dealing with fast movements. On the other hand, I think the lee/garra fight in naruto is a decent representation of both sorts of "faster than the eye can see" as its mainly a constant blurring and flickering when he takes off his weights, then when he starts opening the gates its the vanish and appear style of super fast movement that seems almost fundamentally like teleportation its so quick.

[Reddish Mage]

Do you go into a coffee shop with a sign saying "World's Best Coffee" and then complain that there's no way that can ever be objectively and definitively determined? Death Battle's claim of deciding a winner "once and for all" is just a meaningless tagline. I'm sure they've probably already said something to that effect before.

It's a bit more like going to a place that advertises "world's best coffee" and finding out that all they serve is tea.

Death Battle doesn't even make an effort to do what they claim in good faith.

I'm meaning that they make no actual effort to be unbiased or to scientifically analyze things.

We just had this discussion. There’s no real evidence that they are doing what they are doing “in bad faith” if what you mean is they pick winners they themselves think would actually lose the battle.

If what you mean is that the show basically cobbles together a composite of the characters abilities from various media without following any sort of standard set of rules. We know that.

If you expect a thorough examination of the contradictory accounts of those characters abilities, you probably need to look elsewhere. I’m not sure where, maybe one or two place have taken a character and dissected them in that matter. I think people on this thread may purport to do that but really all we do is talk up our own arbitrary analysis or criticize Death Battles.

If you expect a standardized, consistent, reading of various characters, complete with hard rules of what various sorts of scenes mean, I think you have to go and create your own show. This show simply is not going to layout a set of hard rules on how to derive the attributes, and which attributes win over others when you mix them up. I don’t think anyone has and I think my posts above give reason as to why this would be an exercise in futility.

I really don’t see why someone should expect such precise analysis on these sorts of characters. Especially since I’ve been posting that its basically impossible.

I liked the ichigo/byakuya fight where ichigo goes bankai for the first time and it is explicitly stated that he moved so fast he vanished for an instant from byakuyas sight only to realize ichigo was right in front of him with his sword at his throat. This from the captain who is pretty damn explicitly among the fastest of the shinigami captains as well, so you know he has really good senses and would be really good at dealing with fast movements. On the other hand, I think the lee/garra fight in naruto is a decent representation of both sorts of "faster than the eye can see" as its mainly a constant blurring and flickering when he takes off his weights, then when he starts opening the gates its the vanish and appear style of super fast movement that seems almost fundamentally like teleportation its so quick.

I note that Ichigo’s move there looks like a classic instance of fighting an opponent who is faster than you. Naruto looks a lot more like they are just being fast. If the ninjas are actually faster than light this lends credence to the idea that Naruto-verse warriors are faster than their Bleach counterparts.

[Traab]

Yeah but not just "faster" ichigo moved so much faster he vanished from the vision of his opponent, and, afaik, went in a straight line right to the guys neck. And considering thats from a guy who specializes in speed and precision, thats a pretty huge deal. No blur, no afterimage, just there. And while the first time could be explained away as catching him off guard, ichigo does it AGAIN later on in that fight, after byakuya has had the chance to adjust to his speed at least somewhat. In the garra fight, at the start at least you could still see vague images of lee crossing the distances he was traveling. He was blurry fast, not blink and he appears fast. Your eyes could actually register his movement, even if by the time you did so, he was already in a different spot. Of course, another issue is the only occasional adherence to physics. When lee boosted his speed, the first move he made shattered the ground around him from the force of his acceleration. Then it didnt happen anymore. And of course there was the whole "I will kick him into the air, then kick him higher into the air, and higher, and higher, all without losing any of my upward momentum somehow" Apparently issac newton never discovered the laws of gravity in that universe, so much like schrodingers cat, they both exist and dont exist at the same time. So that makes it hard to come up with reasonable measurements of events that take place.

Speaking of, I always liked it when I would read articles on people trying to create rules of physics and such for these worlds. Basically, its all garbage and done for the laughs, but they try to come up with a set of "natural laws" that explain all these inconsistencies. Like, "well, the reason the ground only gets torn up the first time lee sprints is easy, much like space travel, he is able to use inertia to maintain his speed because the friction coefficient is so low. Getting to that speed was hard, maintaining it is easy."

[Anteros]

Okay? No where do they claim to do that. You just wish they did and then get pissed off when they don't. It's like you took some aspirin for your headache and then wrote a scathing review about it online because it didn't cure your foot fungus.

What? They literally claim it all the time. Do you even watch the show? Are you just lying for the sake of argument? I don't understand what you're doing here.

[Frozen_Feet]

Maybe.

Do we have any explicit confirmation that the training also enhances their senses as well their strength, speed and durability?

I mean Kiba had to explicitly enhance his sense of smell though specialized training that his clan had, so general Naruto training might not cover their senses.

We have explicit confirmation both ways.

As in, it's a plot point in both Naruto and Bleach (as well as Dragon Ball and probably every Shonen fighting series of note) that some people do have significant ESP and others... don't.

In Naruto, Rock Lee's introduction is a great example. Sasuke has photographic memory and his Sharingan can see Lee's attacks... but his body is neither strong nor fast enough to respond. Kakashi had the opposite problem in Kakashi Gaiden: he was able of moving at seriously superhuman speeds, but this created a tunnel vision which was a huge vulnerability for his Chidori/Raikiri technique. Only with ESP granted by Sharingan, was this fatal flaw patched over.

In Bleach, Kurotsuchi poisons Szaeyl Aporro with a "superhuman drug" that speeds his sensory ability something fierce. Because Szaeyl's body is not superhuman enough to cope with it, he freezes from the sensory overload and suffers a subjective eternity of pain as Kurotsuchi stabs through him.

Also in Bleach, both in his rematches with Buakuya and Ulquiorra, ichigo comments that he initially couldn't even see them move, but now he can, demonstrating that his senses have catched up to the superhuman speeds of his opponents. After losing his powers after battling Aizen, while punching some ordinary bullies Ichigo thinks that while his powers are gone, his reflexes from his training are still there.

In Dragon Ball, Super Buu creates a smoke cover to hide from Vegito, only for Vegito to hand him his ass and tell Buu that he ought to rely less on sight and more on sensing Ki, vibrations on the air, etc. This is a repetition of motifs that appear throughout the series. Who can sense who and how is a big signifier in Dragon Ball of personal power and skill, or deficiencies in such.

In One Piece, Captain Kuro, an early villain, can move at speeds equal to Rokushiki users, but his senses can't keep up with his own speed, making him a danger to everyone around. Luffy beats him despite being able to see him, via instinct. This is one of several times when Luffy beats an attack that he could not possibly perceive via intuition alone, possibly foreshadowing Observation Mantra.

So the actual answer varies and most series acknowledge that super speed, strength, durability and senses should go together, but don't necessarily do so, and this is a source of dramatic tension and exploitable weaknesses.

[Reddish Mage]

What? They literally claim it all the time. Do you even watch the show? Are you just lying for the sake of argument? I don't understand what you're doing here.

No they don’t. Requiring Screw Attack provide an unbiased and complete scientific analysis of both characters is absurd. Claiming its implied just because the show draws conclusions regarding the attributes of the characters and provide some calculations of force and speed is ridiculous.

You are putting far, far too much on Death Battle simply because they settle these fights with analysis rather than a fan vote. The showrunners have have said as much on podcasts and in other discussions.

What do you expect Death Battle to use to settle questions of whose stronger or faster? Do they really need to caveat each show that there analysis doesn’t actually scientifically prove which character will win?

You want to commit Death Battle to an academic-level treatment to the subject from doing a ten minute webshow that’s clearly focused on entertainment. Academic themselves won’t touch this in a serious way. When I have seen physicists talk on the subject they usually do exactly what Death Battle does, arbitrarily take out specific statements or events and run the calculations.

NO ONE attempts to comprehensively study superhero battles. It is not even possible to construct a world where two of these physics-breaking superheroes can tangle without contradiction. The characters themselves are not even consistently described.

On a final note, Death Battle might undermine itself on copyright matters if they make suggestions to undermine their own analysis. To make use of others’ characters under fair use DB must be considered to be doing things like commentary, criticisms, and analysis. If any part of the show (including the fight scenes) is not part of the commentary, then fair use is restricted as per other entertainment shows. They wouldn’t be able to show a fight, which I think is a pretty important part of the show.

[Delicious Taffy]

I think people are asking too much of a show based on making fake people pretend to kill each other. If you want an in-depth, definitive answer to "Can X beat Y to death?", do your own research and then make your own show. Not that the Death Battle guys need to be defended by a rando, but when was it decided that they're the only ones able to do a versus show?

[Anteros]

No they don’t. Requiring Screw Attack provide an unbiased and complete scientific analysis of both characters is absurd. Claiming its implied just because the show draws conclusions regarding the attributes of the characters and provide some calculations of force and speed is ridiculous.

You are putting far, far too much on Death Battle simply because they settle these fights with analysis rather than a fan vote. The showrunners have have said as much on podcasts and in other discussions.

What do you expect Death Battle to use to settle questions of whose stronger or faster? Do they really need to caveat each show that there analysis doesn’t actually scientifically prove which character will win?

You want to commit Death Battle to an academic-level treatment to the subject from doing a ten minute webshow that’s clearly focused on entertainment. Academic themselves won’t touch this in a serious way. When I have seen physicists talk on the subject they usually do exactly what Death Battle does, arbitrarily take out specific statements or events and run the calculations.

NO ONE attempts to comprehensively study superhero battles. It is not even possible to construct a world where two of these physics-breaking superheroes can tangle without contradiction. The characters themselves are not even consistently described.

On a final note, Death Battle might undermine itself on copyright matters if they make suggestions to undermine their own analysis. To make use of others’ characters under fair use DB must be considered to be doing things like commentary, criticisms, and analysis. If any part of the show (including the fight scenes) is not part of the commentary, then fair use is restricted as per other entertainment shows. They wouldn’t be able to show a fight, which I think is a pretty important part of the show.

Their entire marketing shtick is based around claiming to do exactly what you're saying they don't claim. Hell, it's literally in the tagline of the show itself on their site.

Pop culture's deadliest characters fight to the death! Experts Wiz and Boomstick analyze the fighters' weapons, armor, and skills to find the decisive, unquestionable winner.

I wouldn't be so hard on them if they were like One Minute Melee or Super Powered Beatdown that don't continually claim to be objective or scientific....but they aren't. They continually lie and misrepresent themselves. They continually claim that their results are objective truth and unquestionable. These are the things that I take issue with.

Obviously this type of show is never going to be scientific or unbiased. The thing that bothers me with DB is that they claim to be, and then don't even make a good faith effort to back it up.

[chainer1216]

You do realise Wiz and Boomstick arent real people right?

Theyre fictional characters my dude. Not real. No real person is claiming to be an expert.

[Anteros]

You do realise Wiz and Boomstick arent real people right?

Theyre fictional characters my dude. Not real. No real person is claiming to be an expert.

They're handles for the people on the show. By your logic you're not talking to a real person either since "Anteros" isn't actually my name.

[Celestia]

They're handles for the people on the show. By your logic you're not talking to a real person either since "Anteros" isn't actually my name.

They're not just names. They are entirely fictional characters, like the Nostalgia Critic or the Angry Video Game Nerd. They are played by real people, but that does not make them real.

[chainer1216]

They're handles for the people on the show. By your logic you're not talking to a real person either since "Anteros" isn't actually my name.

So you think Wiz is being serious when hes talking about his mad scientist experiments?

[Anteros]

We've now devolved beyond ridiculous into absurd. If the best argument you can muster is that "Death Battle shouldn't be expected to actually maintain the basic premise of the show because they use internet handles" then we have nothing to talk about.

If you want to assume that literally everything they say can't be taken at face value because they're just playing characters then I don't know why you would even come into the thread and jump into an argument with a group of people who obviously don't hold that position. At that point you aren't holding a meaningful position or making a point. You're just looking to argue.

[chainer1216]

The DB crew does a podcast, your argument has come up once before, they expressed confusion in how people could take that expert line seriously when the hosts are supposed to be a mad scientist and a B-movie, machismo driven, hillbilly.

[Celestia]

We've now devolved beyond ridiculous into absurd. If the best argument you can muster is that "Death Battle shouldn't be expected to actually maintain the basic premise of the show because they use internet handles" then we have nothing to talk about.

If you want to assume that literally everything they say can't be taken at face value because they're just playing characters then I don't know why you would even come into the thread and jump into an argument with a group of people who obviously don't hold that position. At that point you aren't holding a meaningful position or making a point. You're just looking to argue.

We just see the show for what it is: entertainment. You're the one expecting the unreasonable and working yourself into a tizzy when a YouTube show doesn't hold up under scientific scrutiny.

[Reddish Mage]

Moreover, the shows you are suggesting aren’t really the same. They don’t do much in the way of analysis and have the results decided by fan votes or arbitrarily.

At least this show gives us a narrative on the fighter’s abilities and equipment.

[HolyDraconus]

The issue though with their statement has less to do with how they defend themselves and more with because of how they present themselves, rabid misinformed fans take their "research" as gospel and runs off across the internet spreading it. Like the Superman Prime 1 Million crap. I literally saved an extremely detailed and informed link for that topic cause I will eventually run into someone that will say something along the lines of 'he's stronger than God' cause DB said so, and will attempt to shut down logic and facts with 'nuh huh, DB said it so it's true.' That's one example. Every time they screw up with their facts that's another slew of misinformation (Gaara, ww,dp,cloud,Mega Man, etc) that will be repeated ad infinitum regardless of how wrong it is, because while they claim to be a show, I have never seen them clean up their **** by telling fans "hey, this isn't actually definitive, it's just our opinion in it". That's the issue I think most are having anyway

[Reddish Mage]

So apparently Death Battle does a weekly forty-minute live discussion where they answer tweets raising "questions" and explain why they made their decisions.

They say they posted on YouTube (usually a week delayed, but this one was posted live), I find it on Rooster Teeth's website: Sephiroth vs. Vergil

They say Vergil never had the full power of Force Edge, which is why they omitted it. Yamato they refuse to accept it cuts through anything. The text say can cut through anything but they call bull**** because Vergil has needed to cut through things and didn't. They stated they won't take the text unless it it supported by the gameplay (I think they are inconsistent here).

Supernova they say they've been struggling since the first FFVII (I don't recall them including it in the Cloud or Tifa's analysis). They use Kingdom Hearts to say Sephiroth creates a hole to a Sun.

Sephiroth wasn't left-handed in the Death Battle, they argue he is ambidextrous (like Link), but totally admitted they just didn't correct the animation.

They also talked up the upcoming Voldemort vs Palpatine battle. They said they aren't using EU stuff like they did with Luke (because Luke's battle was before Disney canon). Said that they think EU Palpatine can just think people to death if he wants. Noted Voldemort's AvadaKadaver comes in two forms, in the book it cannot be blocked and isn't a shot just instant death.

[chainer1216]

The palps v voldy thing isnt an upcoming DB, each DBcast has a sort of theoretical death battle where at the end of a video the pick two characters to fight and then in the next video they look at fan tweets argueing for each character and then decide who they think will win.

[Rynjin]

That'd be a pretty short battle.

Palpatine: *Raises hand to lightning*

Voldemort: "AVADA KEDAVRA!"

Palpatine: *Deads*

[Reddish Mage]

It sounded like they were favoring Palpatine actually. Apparently the stuff in the EU was just sick and they say there is a lot of the OP stuff is in the Disney canon too.

If both have instant death moves it is over quick but EU Palpatine supposedly could kill with a look so he'd win, at least according to one of the cast members.

Avada Kadavra has two versions, the movie version its a bolt that looks like it can be dodged. The book version supposedly doesn't work that way but Harry still wand locked with Voldemort by casting his spell simultaneously.

It seems like it comes down to who attacks first unless there's some reason to think the Force can deflect or protect against magic. Voldemort's duel with Dumbledore reads like a lightsaber duel and may give some support to the notion that lightsabers can block magic.

Also, Voldemort can't be killed while he still has his Horcruxes but they've decided he can be dead enough to count it as a win for Palpatine.

By the way, I checked out about Miguel wielding Mjolnir and found he never actually transforms or uses the power of Thor and gave the hammer away immediately. He gets the hammer back in the epilogue but doesn't actually use it in a fight. Does anyone really think this means Miguel should get the hammer and all the powers of Thor?

[Prime32]

Noted Voldemort's AvadaKadaver comes in two forms, in the book it cannot be blocked and isn't a shot just instant death.

Avada Kadavra has two versions, the movie version its a bolt that looks like it can be dodged. The book version supposedly doesn't work that way but Harry still wand locked with Voldemort by casting his spell simultaneously.

In the books it's been blocked by tombstones and a statue, causing them to explode (IIRC the statue may have even tanked multiple hits). It just can't be blocked by magic.

"Cannot be dodged" means it's very fast, not that it homes in on enemies who move out of the way while you're casting it.

[Reddish Mage]

In the books it's been blocked by tombstones and a statue, causing them to explode (IIRC the statue may have even tanked multiple hits). It just can't be blocked by magic.

"Cannot be dodged" means it's very fast, not that it homes in on enemies who move out of the way while you're casting it.

It comes down to this: how fast is AvadaKadavra and can Palpatine dodge it or make it a non-factor?

Since the unforgivable curses require shouting it and Palpatine can shoot lightening instantly I would say the curses can't be used out in the open. Voldemort has the ability to ignite his wand or shoot other spells without speaking them though.

If Palpatine can defend against the curses with the force I think he has this. Otherwise it comes down to whether Palpatine's abilities can disable Voldemort off the bat.

Voldemort wins if Palpatine cannot defend and he gets a chance to use his AvadaKadavra.

[Kitten Champion]

Eh, I would assume Palpatine could dodge. There's not much of a meaningful difference between most curses from Rowling's books and getting shot by an ordinary blaster from the Star Wars universe, at least from the perspective of a Force User. Sure, they could have a wide variety of possible effects, but any short of immediately killing the target seem irrelevant and the basic method of casting is pretty much universal - i.e. a wand points at something, a verbal trigger launches the spell, the spell emits in a straight line at a velocity fast enough to be dangerous but slow enough where one can actively perceive its movement and enact a counter-spell, and if it hits its target its effect is immediate. There are other methods for HP magic - the verbal component can be ignored and wand-less magic works on some level not to mention potions and the like - but none seem relevant to combat based on how its presented.

Voldemort can teleport instantaneously, which would usually be quite useful but it's not terribly meaningful against someone with precognition and ESP.

[Rater202]

I'm gonna say no, Palpatine can't use The Force to block the Killing Curse. That Harry is able to do it is treated as being special and unique and he can only do it with Voldemort.

Harry can dodge and--thanks to his Wand and Voldemort's having twin cores--block it... But it should be cited that the first time Hais every described as dodging spell-fire, it's chalked up to his reflexes being honed by years of quidditch practice.

Ever since he was eleven, early in his first year, he's spent a good chunk of the year training for a sport where he has to fly while riding on a tiny flying stick, occasionally dodge flying magical canon balls that are sometimes being deliberatly sent at him by members of the other team, and fly really, really fast towards a really tiny target. The Captain of Harry's team is repeatedly cited to be borderline insane in his obsession with the sport and making the team train, sometimes when the weather is absolutly terrible. One of the few times Harry's team has lost a game(Harry is a prodigy at the sport and in flying in general, implying that he naturally has very good balance and reflexes) involved outside interferance from soul eating monsters and Harry literally being struck by lightning.

Prior to that, one of the first things that we are told about Harry is that he's very fast and very good at outrunning and dodging blows from Dudley and the gang of violent bullies and hoodlums that he hung around with, which Harry demonstrates in a later chapter by dodgind Dudly trying to hit a with a stick as an after thought.

So Harry is an athletic prodigy with excellent speed and reflexes honed by years of rigorous training.

I'm going to assume that a feeble and slightly crippled old man lacks that.

So... Can the Emporer use the Force to push himself out of the way in a few seconds or enhance his reflexes to levels comparable to a prodigious athlete? Can he use it to push a thick, solid object or a meat shield between himself and the spell the time it takes it to fly?

Though strictly speaking, if this is a fight to the Death, then Tom wins by default. Horcruxes mean he can't die and the Horcruxes can only be destroyed by like, two things that we know of.

[Knaight]

I'm going to assume that a feeble and slightly crippled old man lacks that.

This would be the feeble and slightly crippled old man who had an extended fight on a series of questionably stable platforms being deliberately hurled around while up against a high speed opponent with a penchant for jumping all over the place, right? That feeble and slightly crippled old man? It's also the feeble and slightly crippled old man that quickly attacked a squad of four enforcers in the prime of their lives trying to take him down, cut down three of them, and had the last one (a war hero who's a master with a sword) on the ropes for a while, right?

I'm pretty sure the frailty is an act.

[Rater202]

This would be the feeble and slightly crippled old man who had an extended fight on a series of questionably stable platforms being deliberately hurled around while up against a high speed opponent with a penchant for jumping all over the place, right? That feeble and slightly crippled old man? It's also the feeble and slightly crippled old man that quickly attacked a squad of four enforcers in the prime of their lives trying to take him down, cut down three of them, and had the last one (a war hero who's a master with a sword) on the ropes for a while, right?

I'm pretty sure the frailty is an act.

We're talking Emporer Palpatine, not Chancellor Palpatine, Right? He was significantly less old(Two decades between prequels and original?) and became feeble and slightly crippled specifically becuase he over exherted himself fighting Yoda(Note how he aged decades in mere moments)Note that he died to Darth Vader picking him up and dropping him down a hole while moving at normal walking speeds.

Even if we take him immediately after he became the Emporer... Aged several decades in mere moments not long before that.

[Kitten Champion]

That's not how the Star Wars universe works. The whole point of the Force is that the physical is a mere facade to the spiritual essence within, that muscles and youth are no indication of one's power that truly comes from spiritual enlightenment and knowledge of hidden truths. Hell, Darth Vader spent much of his adult life as a husk of flesh barely alive in a cybernetic shell.

It's coming from decades of martial arts movie tropes where seemingly crippled grey-haired hermits are inevitably the deadliest things in the goddamned universe.

[Anteros]

That's not how the Star Wars universe works. The whole point of the Force is that the physical is a mere facade to the spiritual essence within, that muscles and youth are no indication of one's power that truly comes from spiritual enlightenment and knowledge of hidden truths. Hell, Darth Vader spent much of his adult life as a husk of flesh barely alive in a cybernetic shell.

It's coming from decades of martial arts movie tropes where seemingly crippled grey-haired hermits are inevitably the deadliest things in the goddamned universe.

More like it was ret-conned to be that way along with a billion other things from the original series.

[Kitten Champion]

More like it was ret-conned to be that way along with a billion other things from the original series.

What? That's all with Yoda in Empire Strikes Back. The whole - he's a 900+ year old decaying goblin who barely rises to Luke's shins but has power beyond reckoning - thing.

We're luminous beings, not crude matter.

etc.

Edit: Incidently, if you do want a questionably canonical expression of original trilogy Palpatine's powers, he's the final boss character in The Force Unleashed where he's quite fast in a float-y wraith-like way.