Highest Possible Crit Range?

[lvl 1 sharnian]

In an attempt to try and find the highest crit range I can get, I came up with this:

An Aptitude Rapier has 15-20 crit range

Street Fighter Barbarian 7 gives +1 to Threat Range on a charge or flat-footed target = 14-20

Disciple of Dispater 8, gives x3 to crit range, which ends up as 9-20 -1 for Barb7 = 8-20 Crit Range

Throw in Arcane Duelist adds in a false keen, = 6-20 -1 for Barb7 = 5-20

Add OA Weapon Master for -2 = 3-20 Crit Range

Throw the Psychic Weapon Master for -2 again = 1-20 Crit Range

Combined with Lightning Maces for Infinite Attacks.

Using beneficial stacking rules, is there a way to make this legal? Probably impossible pre-epic (I know, there are worse things in Epic than critical hits) , but if playing Gestalt, that might be possible pre-epic with Barbarian//PsychicWarrior.

Also, if this works, can you threaten a critical hit on a natural 1?

[Sleepingbear]

Crit range does not affect ability to hit.

So you do not threaten a crit on a natural one as a natural one always misses.

As for the rest of it, I have no idea.

[drengnikrafe]

I'm afraid I cannot poke any holes in your logic, but only because I haven't actually investiaged whether or not those stack. As for the last question... There is a statement somewhere that says regardless of your threat range, you only automatically hit on a natural 20 (which can be changed with variant rules). IIRC, a natural 1 is an automatic miss, and thus... would miss.

EDIT: Ninja'd!

[Tyndmyr]

The spell Dolorous Blade doubles crit range, and causes crit threats to autoconfirm. Now, it doesn't stack with everything(keen being a listed exception), but if you have a decent crit range already, it does make crits vastly more likely.

[Sleepingbear]

I'm afraid I cannot poke any holes in your logic, but only because I haven't actually investiaged whether or not those stack. As for the last question... There is a statement somewhere that says regardless of your threat range, you only automatically hit on a natural 20 (which can be changed with variant rules). IIRC, a natural 1 is an automatic miss, and thus... would miss.

EDIT: Ninja'd!

Sweet! I'm the worlds first Ninja Bear!

[Ostien]

An immediate flaw I see, RAWwise you don't provoke a critical every time you roll in a critical threat. You have to roll a critical threat and hit in order for it to provoke. So say you roll a 3 and that is in your critical threat range but a 3 + attack does not hit. Then you just miss.

Edit: Only a natural 20 is an auto-hit that gets around this, so that even if your 20+attack does not hit the AC numbers wise you still hit. You'll probably miss on the confirm but still hit. Though you could roll two 20's in a row.

[lvl 1 sharnian]

Not actually important to hit, as Lightning Maces triggers an extra attack everytime it threatens a critical so what I'm trying to do is cause an infinite amount of attacks which should include an infinite amount of natural 20s so that unless they have enough DR to overcome a possible max damage critical, they're dead.

Blood in the Water stance is also nice

[Tyndmyr]

You do have to hit to threaten, though, right?

Now, you can optimize to-hit, but 1s will always break the chain unless you use a method such as the rogue option(feat, I believe) to treat a roll of a 1 as a natural 20. Or use rerolls granted by skill tricks, etc.

[lvl 1 sharnian]

Ahh, forgot that important part, but if you can't hit on a natural one, you can get rid of some of those barbarian levels and use Dextrious Attack from Arcane Duelist with a +5 Rapier for +10 to hit, or just punk them out with Wraithstrike as all the extra attacks are still in the same round.

Any way to get enough divine ranks to not fail on a natural one?

[ericgrau]

There's got to be an ability somewhere that lets you reroll 1's, that'd get this going.

[drengnikrafe]

There's got to be an ability somewhere that lets you reroll 1's, that'd get this going.

The world's first, and only, use for luck feats. How nice.

[lvl 1 sharnian]

Well, to be infinite I'd need that, but at the level where I can finish off the build, I'd have atleast 11 BAB, so at 3 attacks, with a 95% chance of threatening, that would have some insane amount of attacks. I need to find a way to add in the Two Weapon Fighting chain.

[RagnaroksChosen]

After reading this thread I wonder what the biggest crit range is using only 3.5 raw only, no 3.0 stuff. Best i could do was 13-20.
which was psi-warrior/psychic weapon master.

[Smeggedoff]

Forgive my lack of knowledge but what the heck is an Aptitude Rapier?

[lvl 1 sharnian]

Aptitude is a weapon enhancement from Tome of Battle that lets you use that weapon as the required weapon for other feats such as shadow blade or in this case, Lightning Maces to get near infinite attacks

[Eldariel]

That's the broken reading of Aptitude, mind. It's speculated that its real purpose is allowing using your Weapon Focus-line and such with another weapon type, but then people decided to combine it with Weapon Style-feats and do something busted. Like Lightning Maces which is balanced by the base weapon being 20/x2.

Also, just pump up To Hit and the Crit won't be a problem. As a Barbarian, that shouldn't be hard. Apply Wraithstrike as desired. Blood in the Water should quickly erase any miss chance.

[Heliomance]

In an attempt to try and find the highest crit range I can get, I came up with this:

An Aptitude Rapier has 15-20 crit range

Actually, I'm pretty sure it has an 18-20 crit range.

Street Fighter Barbarian 7 gives +1 to Threat Range on a charge or flat-footed target = 14-20

I don't know the Street Fighter variant, so I can't comment on this.

Disciple of Dispater 8, gives x3 to crit range, which ends up as 9-20 -1 for Barb7 = 8-20 Crit Range

Alright so far, though I would point out that the Disciple of Dispater abilities only work with iron or steel weapons.

Throw in Arcane Duelist adds in a false keen, = 6-20 -1 for Barb7 = 5-20

Again, I don't know the Arcane Duelist, so I can't comment. I've never seen it in similar crit-focused builds though - double check the wording to se if it stacks.

Add OA Weapon Master for -2 = 3-20 Crit Range

Assuming the OA Weapon Master is the same as the Sword and Fist Weapon master, this is valid.

Throw the Psychic Weapon Master for -2 again = 1-20 Crit Range

Psychic Weapon master only works with crystal weapons. Disciple of Dispater only works with iron or steel weapons. You can't get both. The largest crit range I've sen the CO boards come up with is 9-20, though I can't remember how. Incidentally, you forgot the simple Improved Critical.

Combined with Lightning Maces for Infinite Attacks.

Using beneficial stacking rules, is there a way to make this legal? Probably impossible pre-epic (I know, there are worse things in Epic than critical hits) , but if playing Gestalt, that might be possible pre-epic with Barbarian//PsychicWarrior.

Also, if this works, can you threaten a critical hit on a natural 1?

I don't believe so.

[Kudaku]

Don't mean to throw a spanner in your plans here, and I don't have access to my books atm so this is purely based on my google-fu, but:

Doesn't Lightning Maces require you to use two Light Maces for it to work?


Edited for spelling.

[Curmudgeon]

Doesn't Lightning Maces require you to use a Light Mace for it to work?

The trick here is the Aptitude weapon special ability from Tome of Battle, which lets you apply weapon feat benefits for some other type of weapon to that Aptitude weapon.

[Eldariel]

Actually, I'm pretty sure it has an 18-20 crit range.

It's Keen/Imp. Crit.

I don't know the Street Fighter variant, so I can't comment on this.

See here.

Again, I don't know the Arcane Duelist, so I can't comment. I've never seen it in similar crit-focused builds though - double check the wording to se if it stacks.

See here.

Psychic Weapon master only works with crystal weapons. Disciple of Dispater only works with iron or steel weapons. You can't get both. The largest crit range I've sen the CO boards come up with is 9-20, though I can't remember how. Incidentally, you forgot the simple Improved Critical.

Wouldn't Aptitude get past this? And Improved Crit was already included in the original weapon. Also, I recall 3-20 crit range on Char Ops.

[Curmudgeon]

Arcane Duelist's False Keen specifically does not stack with either Improved Critical or keen.

[Keshay]

Originally Posted by Kudaku
Doesn't Lightning Maces require you to use a Light Mace for it to work?

The trick here is the Aptitude weapon special ability from Tome of Battle, which lets you apply weapon feat benefits for some other type of weapon to that Aptitude weapon.

Even using an Aptitiude weapon, would you not still have to be dual wielding? I'm not sure what the actual verbatim on the mod is...

[Curmudgeon]

Even using an Aptitiude weapon, would you not still have to be dual wielding? I'm not sure what the actual verbatim on the mod is...

Yes, you would. You'd need two Aptitude weapons. They just don't have to be light maces.

[lvl 1 sharnian]

That puts a damper on things, right now without a way of getting past the crystal weapon and the Arcane Duelist, that's 6-20 on a charge or flat-footed.

[term1nally s1ck]

If you're using Aptitude weapons, Use Roundabout kick.

it's a feat in Complete Warrior that gives you a free unarmed strike each time you confirm a critical. But you have aptitude, so that's another Rapier attack...meaning any confirmed crits actually give you 2 extra attacks, and you can actually go truly infinite.

Of course you want the Lion totem Barbarian to get a full attack on the charge to make sure you go infinite.

I think with Improved critical, and DoD, you get to 3-20 anyway? or is it 9-20? Never sure how to stack that kind of multiplier...I think since it explicitly says you double it, then triple it, you get to 3-20. If I'm wrong, then 9-20 is still pretty good...but unless you're hitting on a 7, you won't go infinite.

If, however, you can use a spell like Dolorous Blow, or Critical Strike (and if it stacks, not sure), you could get it infinite quite easily. (all you need is the ability to hit and threaten a critical on an 8, one more point is all...but more is always good)

[Signmaker]

If you're using Aptitude weapons, Use Roundabout kick.

it's a feat in Complete Warrior that gives you a free unarmed strike each time you confirm a critical. But you have aptitude, so that's another Rapier attack...meaning any confirmed crits actually give you 2 extra attacks, and you can actually go truly infinite.

NI!=Infinite

Of course you want the Lion totem Barbarian to get a full attack on the charge to make sure you go infinite.

I think with Improved critical, and DoD, you get to 3-20 anyway? or is it 9-20? Never sure how to stack that kind of multiplier...I think since it explicitly says you double it, then triple it, you get to 3-20. If I'm wrong, then 9-20 is still pretty good...but unless you're hitting on a 7, you won't go infinite.

As above.

If, however, you can use a spell like Dolorous Blow, or Critical Strike (and if it stacks, not sure), you could get it infinite quite easily. (all you need is the ability to hit and threaten a critical on an 8, one more point is all...but more is always good)

As above.

Once a large enough string of ones is hit, the attack routine stops. You need to be able to circumvent ones.

[term1nally s1ck]

NI!=Infinite



As above.



As above.

Once a large enough string of ones is hit, the attack routine stops. You need to be able to circumvent ones.

If I find a monster with sufficient damage reduction, I think I can make infinitely many attacks quite easily.

Well, not if you use roundabout kick. If every attack you make spawns 1.1 attacks on average, then even if some give you none, you'll usually end up with more than you had before, because it's actually more likely for you to get two attacks off any given attack than it is for you to miss. If I crit and confirm on 6 or higher, then there's only a 1/4 chance of missing, while there's a greater than half chance of confirming a crit, giving you two extra attacks. Yes, some attacks get nothing, but more attacks actually INCREASE the number of attacks you have to use.

I just had a bad bad bad idea. Isn't there an ability that lets you take 10 on an attack? If we can work that into the build, it IS infinite if you hit on a 10.

[Signmaker]

Well, not if you use roundabout kick. If every attack you make spawns 1.1 attacks on average, then even if some give you none, you'll usually end up with more than you had before, because it's actually more likely for you to get two attacks off any given attack than it is for you to miss. If I crit and confirm on 6 or higher, then there's only a 1/4 chance of missing, while there's a greater than half chance of confirming a crit, giving you two extra attacks. Yes, some attacks get nothing, but more attacks actually INCREASE the number of attacks you have to use.

You're misapplying averages to predict long-term relationships. A positive attack increase does NOT guarantee an infinite string unless you can remove the miss chance from a natural one.

[Zincorium]

Psychic weapon master and disciple of dispater can't ever stack by the books- one requires a crystal weapon, and the other an iron/steel one.

You're also using multiple 3.0 sources where stacking of critical hit effects from different sources was allowed, and it is not the case in 3.5. So like DR 30/+1, it's effectively errata'd to not function the way it did. You can ignore it for theoretical optimization purposes, but I think this has been done before.

Also, if 3.0 stuff is allowed, I believe that bladed gauntlets exist which have a base crit range of 17-20. Double due to Improved Critical, add disciple of Dispater which stacks explicitly with imp. critical to make it x4, and use OA weapon master to add +2 for a RAW legal total of 3-20. I don't think you can stack anything with that, and it's very fragile considering the 3.0 stuff.

[term1nally s1ck]

You're misapplying averages to predict long-term relationships. A positive attack increase does NOT guarantee an infinite string unless you can remove the miss chance from a natural one.

No, it doesn't guarantee it, but you have an good chance of it happening. In the case I mentioned earlier (hit and crit on a 6), the chance of an infinite string of attacks is 5/9, off one attack. If you can get a second attack at the same stats (Haste comes to mind, among others), then you have a 65/81 chance of going infinite, and even if you don't go infinite, the likelihood is that you make a lot of attacks anyway.


I'm wondering how the splitting property works with this....Could we find a way to get a Great Crossbow to work? 18-20 still, but there's the whole reloading thing...fairly sure there's a way around that though...and the splitting would make every critical threat give you two more attacks. (Since I have no memory, do you roll two attacks, or just one?)



BLOOD IN THE WATER.

It stacks, it keeps building up as you crit, and you can charge it up with a bag of rats or something....(note that this build can do the same thing as the great cleave sweeping strike cheese, if you drop a bag of rats out where you can hit them)

If you get to crit on a 7(easy in this build), and hit on a 2 (crit lots of rats), then there's a 60/133 chance of going infinite. Nearly half, and achievable easily.