Crossroads: The New World

[Aux-Ash]

Many versions of the Five Suns story claim that when their Sun burned out, the inhabitants of each world were changed into animals (monkeys, birds, fish, etc.) Typically, they're then eaten by jaguars, drowned in floods, or blown away by hurricanes. But what if not all of these people died out after being transformed? What if there are still tribes of giants, fishfolk, weremonkeys, and avians out there in the wilds of Mesovespuccia, hidden deep in the trackless jungles or high in the mountains? What if they're not even that uncommon, and the pochtecas of Aztlan trade with them on a regular basis for hard-to-find items?

Guys! This. Would be. Freaking. AWESOME!

I'm not saying that all of these races should necessarily be made into player-friendly races, but the idea of marauding tribes of half-monkeys in the jungles and fish-men in the rivers is just too cool to pass up. Who's with me!?

It's a cool idea. As long as we toss in a "the Mexica says..." in the description it should be fine.

I like this idea. I imagine that there would be a fair bit of back-and-forth between Christianity and the Aztec state religion (though of course, not nearly as much as in our own timeline). I suspect that Christianity might have proved fairly popular among the lower classes, especially poorer farming tribes who lived far from the capital, and don't like having to send sacrifices to Tenochtitlan every few months.

Hmmm... I think christianity will be popular among traders, people living closer to Veracruz and some nobles who want to be "international". Not so much the average commoner and especially not peripheral tribes. And even so, if they were having problems with being chosen for sacrefice they'd revolt... not convert.

If we need a reason for the Spirit Fields to be post-contact, we could say that the disease the Spanish brought crippled the farming system, so the Amiqcui from all three temples met together for the first time and were able to create the Spirit Fields, using the ghosts of the dead farmers to grow crops for those who survived.

Yeah, I could see them existing in a very limited fashion prior to contact but once the epidemics hits it'll start seeming like a good idea to expand the practise.

Also I like the idea of Christian factions within the Triple Alliance. Would it be a situation where the Government outlawed Christianity, or would it just be looked down upon. Would Christian Aztecs be loyal to the Spanish?

Not sure whether it'd be outlawed now or not. Immediately after the wars it would have been. But the Triple Alliance would be interested in trade now. So perhaps a tense existance? I could see it balancing between barely tolerated and unofficially persecuted.

As for loyalty... nah... they'd be loyal to their homeland until given reason not to be anymore. Some might be spying, sure. Some might join a invasion should one happen, sure. But not the majority. For most it'd be just a religion, not a political statement.

[zabbarot]

I'm glad to see that we're adding big, boldly magical things to Mesovespuccian society; I feel like we've been a little afraid to change things up too much (partly because it's hard enough to learn about these cultures as they actually existed), but tossing magic into the mix will really help awesomize the setting in a big way. Excellent work everyone!

Important question: do the Maya have Amiqcui of their own, or is that just an Aztec thing?

Short answer: I don't know yet.

Long Answer: I started looking for more information on Mayan religion. I get the feeling it has a lot of similarities with the Mexica's beliefs, but I haven't read much yet. I did find something though, the Popol Vuh. It's basically the Mayan holy text. So it should definitely provide some insight. It's like 250 pages, so it's not really a quick read...

But what if not all of these people died out after being transformed? What if there are still tribes of giants, fishfolk, weremonkeys, and avians out there in the wilds of Mesovespuccia, hidden deep in the trackless jungles or high in the mountains? What if they're not even that uncommon, and the pochtecas of Aztlan trade with them on a regular basis for hard-to-find items?

Guys! This. Would be. Freaking. AWESOME!

I'm not saying that all of these races should necessarily be made into player-friendly races, but the idea of marauding tribes of half-monkeys in the jungles and fish-men in the rivers is just too cool to pass up. Who's with me!?

We're kind of walking a blurred line between the mythology being factual and just being beliefs. As long as we keep it implied that this is how they believe they came to be and never really verify any of it as factual I'm for it. Also I personally would like them to not be PC races since we're putting so much work into varying the humans.

If we need a reason for the Spirit Fields to be post-contact, we could say that the disease the Spanish brought crippled the farming system, so the Amiqcui from all three temples met together for the first time and were able to create the Spirit Fields, using the ghosts of the dead farmers to grow crops for those who survived.

This is a pretty good reason for it to have come up. I would suggest that the idea was proposed by priests of Quetzalcoatl specifically since Aztec beliefs hold that Quetzalcoatl created or brought maize to humans.

Also I like the idea of Christian factions within the Triple Alliance. Would it be a situation where the Government outlawed Christianity, or would it just be looked down upon. Would Christian Aztecs be loyal to the Spanish?

Christianity would probably just be folded in with other Mesoamerican beliefs. The Mexica in general seemed to just add any god they came across to their pantheon. This seems to be a general trend with pantheistic cultures that are introduced to Christianity. They just pick out what they like and add it to what they have. It's also possible that they might see a similarity between Christ and Quetzalcoatl. So I really doubt they would ban Christianity at all, or even look down on it. With the defeat of the Spanish they would probably have established in their own minds that Huitzilopotchli is stronger anyways, and the Mexica are surprisingly gracious towards those whom they defeat.

Edit: Aux-Ash ninja's me on some of this by almost 2 hours because I didn't see the next page : |

[zabbarot]

Sorry for the double post, but I started reading the Popol Vuh and it is full of useful information. For instance Nahuatl was already basically the trade language of Mesoamerica in the early 1500s.

Also the Mexica aren't the only ones who claimed to be related to the Toltecs. The Maya did the same. Apparently claiming Toltec lineage was a fashionable thing to do, much as the royalty of Europe claimed relation to the Holy Roman Empire.

[BRC]

I just had a thought.

So the two big powers in the region are the Spanish and the Mexica.

Neither is willing to trade directly with one another, there is far too much bad blood between them, so there may be a very successful network of "Neutral" traders. Cahokians, Fusangese, Dutch, French, British, ect who serve as intermediaries. The Spanish and Mexica are very much enemies in the region, which makes it a prime space for middlemen of all sorts. It also means that whenever hostilities flare up Merchants don't have to worry about their goods being captured in raids.
I could see the French and British being especially active in this area, since they would have the ships needed to transport goods from the Mexica to the Spanish colonies in Cuba, and they have their own islands (Haiti and Jamaica) to base operations out of.

Also, this makes it a prime spot for Piracy/Privateering. The Spanish don't care who sells them the goods from the mainland, so you could have Pirates trying to capture merchant ships en-route, then just deliver the cargo to the intended customers as planned. Sure the Spanish may notice that the British merchants they had been planning to buy from now seem to be a rag-tag mix of Europeans, Africans, Chinese, and Columbians, with the Captain bearing an uncanny resemblence to a former British Naval officer well-known in the Carribean for fleeing his own court martial and turning Pirate, but hey, they're here, they've got the goods, and they're offering a small discount!

From a gameplay perspective this means there are a large number of merchants in the area who can't rely on the local millitary for protection, neccessitating the use of violence-prone fellows of a mercenary and, dare I say, player-controlled nature.

Edit: expanding on this

I see the French and British as the major players here. The Cahokians may work the inland routes, but they wouldn't have a blue-water merchant navy, plus the Aztecs are perfectly aware whose been arming the Commanches, Navajo, and Apaches on their northern border.
In the Carribean Cuba is probably the hub of spanish power. Overland trade would probably go from Spanish settlements straight to Cuba anyway, so British and French ships will probably just sail straight from Mexica to Cuba. The Governments may try to force them to stop in Haiti or Jamaica to have their cargo properly taxed, but plenty of captains will ignore that and make straight for Havana, although British and French merchants in the carribean will probably get plenty of goods as well (Although there may be less demand in Britain and France than in Spain). From Cuba the goods will go up to the Colonies, or across the Atlantic to Europe.

Of course we shouldn't leave out Fusang. The chinese are pretty close, and have unfettered access to Mexica's pacific coast, and they certainly have the ships for it, plus. There is no reason there would not be hearty trade between Mexica and Fusang. In fact, the trade with Fusang may be more important than the one with the Carribean.
In fact, the Aztecs may serve as middlemen between the Europeans and Fusangese even more so than the Cahokians.
I love the idea of Europeans acquiring goods from Fusang and mislabeling them as Aztec.

[Mith]

But that does bring up the issue of leaders who fell to diseases. It seems pretty reasonable that one as powerful as Alexander the Great would be able to get his hands on at least one 5th-level cleric

So I have skipped ahead to post this, so my apologies if this has already been covered, but most leaders who died from disease that I can think of were not in a good political position at thier time of death (Alexanderès men have not been happy with him after that desert incident.) You could play it as a hidden conspiricy that his personal cleric was a part of to ensure that he died. THis idea would work like a charm in Rome and various City States with the intruige and backstabbing.

Overall I LOVE the world! Especially the Moosemen, who I picture as log drivers to great hilarity.)

[Aux-Ash]

Sorry for the double post, but I started reading the Popol Vuh and it is full of useful information. For instance Nahuatl was already basically the trade language of Mesoamerica in the early 1500s.

Also the Mexica aren't the only ones who claimed to be related to the Toltecs. The Maya did the same. Apparently claiming Toltec lineage was a fashionable thing to do, much as the royalty of Europe claimed relation to the Holy Roman Empire.

Yeah... my research suggests this as well. It started early too, several hundred years prior to the Aztecs... and yet every single one of them seemed to state they're the direct successors to the Toltec.

Not to mention that a lot of research seem to suggest that there never was a people called Toltecs.

Spoiler

Show

I just had a thought.

So the two big powers in the region are the Spanish and the Mexica.

Neither is willing to trade directly with one another, there is far too much bad blood between them, so there may be a very successful network of "Neutral" traders. Cahokians, Fusangese, Dutch, French, British, ect who serve as intermediaries. The Spanish and Mexica are very much enemies in the region, which makes it a prime space for middlemen of all sorts. It also means that whenever hostilities flare up Merchants don't have to worry about their goods being captured in raids.
I could see the French and British being especially active in this area, since they would have the ships needed to transport goods from the Mexica to the Spanish colonies in Cuba, and they have their own islands (Haiti and Jamaica) to base operations out of.

Also, this makes it a prime spot for Piracy/Privateering. The Spanish don't care who sells them the goods from the mainland, so you could have Pirates trying to capture merchant ships en-route, then just deliver the cargo to the intended customers as planned. Sure the Spanish may notice that the British merchants they had been planning to buy from now seem to be a rag-tag mix of Europeans, Africans, Chinese, and Columbians, with the Captain bearing an uncanny resemblence to a former British Naval officer well-known in the Carribean for fleeing his own court martial and turning Pirate, but hey, they're here, they've got the goods, and they're offering a small discount!

From a gameplay perspective this means there are a large number of merchants in the area who can't rely on the local millitary for protection, neccessitating the use of violence-prone fellows of a mercenary and, dare I say, player-controlled nature.

Edit: expanding on this

I see the French and British as the major players here. The Cahokians may work the inland routes, but they wouldn't have a blue-water merchant navy, plus the Aztecs are perfectly aware whose been arming the Commanches, Navajo, and Apaches on their northern border.
In the Carribean Cuba is probably the hub of spanish power. Overland trade would probably go from Spanish settlements straight to Cuba anyway, so British and French ships will probably just sail straight from Mexica to Cuba. The Governments may try to force them to stop in Haiti or Jamaica to have their cargo properly taxed, but plenty of captains will ignore that and make straight for Havana, although British and French merchants in the carribean will probably get plenty of goods as well (Although there may be less demand in Britain and France than in Spain). From Cuba the goods will go up to the Colonies, or across the Atlantic to Europe.

Of course we shouldn't leave out Fusang. The chinese are pretty close, and have unfettered access to Mexica's pacific coast, and they certainly have the ships for it, plus. There is no reason there would not be hearty trade between Mexica and Fusang. In fact, the trade with Fusang may be more important than the one with the Carribean.
In fact, the Aztecs may serve as middlemen between the Europeans and Fusangese even more so than the Cahokians.
I love the idea of Europeans acquiring goods from Fusang and mislabeling them as Aztec.

Spoilered for brevity.

I highly doubt that the Mexica and the Spanish would remain at one another's throats for just about 240 years. I could see them being rivals, but I can't see their relations being so hostile that they won't even trade with one another. Ups and downs, sure. But there ought to be trade between them.

That said... I absolutely agree with everything else. The Carribean would be an extremely exciting part of the setting. A place with huge dangers but quick ways to geat filthy rich.

Smuggling, piracy, undercutting. China (the porcelain), Silver, Vanilla, Chocolate, Chili, Slaves, Guns (cannon), Sugar, Rum, Mahogany and Ebony... all that passing through the very same region. A region of jungles, coves, underground caverns, mangrove forests and hurricane seasons.

Perfect player enviroment.
Add in the exciting element of the British, the French and the Spanish starting to establish fleets proper in the region. The age of piracy may be going out, but it will do so with a bang.

Awesome

[BRC]

Things could still be tense. I have trouble with the idea that after Cortez there were 240 years of peace. The Spanish may still want to expand inland, gaining the riches and converts of Mexica, and Mexica will still see the Spanish as invaders. Tensions like this can easily last centuries. These are two notably aggressive empires, they're not going to sit peacefully.
I don't see those 240 years as being peaceful. I see them as a period of intermiitent War. The Spanish don't have the manpower for anything so brazen as an attempted conquest of Technoticlan, and the Triple Alliance dosn't have enough unity to drive the Spanish from the coasts (The Mexica have limited access to gunpowder, so walled cities with cannons are a major obstacle) but I could imagine border conflicts over fertile areas, forests of good timber, and silver mines, plus smaller towns and villages, with Peace occuring when one side decides to withdraw their forces, promising to return, rather with the signing of a treaty.

And there wouldn't be no trade. Small scale local trade would certainly continue, but major trade would be impossible. A Spanish merchant caravan would never be allowed to enter Technoticlan or any of the other cities for example, and no true blooded Spanyiard would ever open the gates for a trade delegation from the heathen Aztecs.

As far as I can tell, the social structure of the Mexica does not have room for a "Merchant" class. Anybody with access to enough resources to conduct large-scale trade would probably be part of the religious/millitary/political elite, which would make it difficult for them to openly trade with the Spanish directly.
Especially if they're supposed to be listening to the Deathless priests, most of whom would have been alive (Or undead) during the time of Cortez. They would hold a grudge, and would not approve of open commerce with the Invaders.

On the Spanish end, our setting has an especially powerful and millitant Inquisition (Scarred Monks and all that), who would not approve of a merchant dealing with the second cousin of an Aztec High Priest. I imagine the Inquisition viewing the Aztec priests as extra-heathen (What with Sacrifces, and the deathless, and their significant role in the government), compared to the "merely" pagan cultures of the rest of Vespuccia.
So the British/French/Dutch serve as a useful loophole to get around these issues.

[zabbarot]

There actually was an established merchant class in Mexica culture. They had an empire that consisted of a large numbers of loosely controlled city states, and virtually no upper level governmental control. Trade was not regulated from one city to another.

They need a merchant class to function.

[BRC]

There actually was an established merchant class in Mexica culture.

Huh, shows what I know.

Still, the Amiqcui and the Church would go a long way towards ensuring grudges get kept. Maybe not enough to cut off all trade, but there would be enough animosity to give the middlemen plenty of business.

[Aux-Ash]

Here's a first draft for a timeline I constructed, reaching up to Cortez' invasion mostly. I've added a few flairs in regards to magical history and tried setting this apart by italizing those segments. Other than that it's mostly just research, if a bit simplified

All in all... mesoamerican history is dynamic like crazy. I added a legend just to keep track of where everything is happening.

Spoiler

Show

Draft – Mesoamerican history
Legend:
(M) Maya – Yucatán, Belize, the Guatemala highlands and the Honduras Highlands.
(VoM) Valley of Mexico
(V) – Veracruz
(TP) Tlaxcala plateau
(OG) Oaxaca and Guerrero
(PB) Pátzcuaro Basin
(NS) New Spain – Carribean and Panama
Magical stuff in italics

Paleo-Indian 10 000 BCE – 3500 BCE
Largely unchanged

Archaic 3500 – 2000 BCE
Mostly the same, magic starts to be studied

Preclassic/Formative 1800 BCE – 200 CE
(M, V, VoM, OG) Foundation of Mesoamerican distinctive elements, Heyday of the early Zapotecs and Olmecs and early Maya starts spreading into Yucatan and expands in Guatemala.

Eldest magical artifacts date from this period (simple, crude things). A few rare simple spells date from this time. First signs of common Mesoamerican Links having been discovered.

The Atlantis catastrophe halfway around the world sends shockwaves through the spirit world and mages all over the world feels something happened.

(OG)Monté Alban is founded in 500 BCE. San José Mogote develops after 1150 BCE and gains a position of prominence in Zapotec lands over the next centuries. By 100 BCE San José loses its position to Monté Alban.

(V) Huastec peoples migrate northward into Huasteca around 1100-900 BCE, originally settling further south but slowly being pushed northward by Olmec expansion.

(M) Tikal is founded in the 4th century BCE, Coba is founded between 100 BCE and 100 CE, Caracol develops into an urban centre around the 7th century BCE,

(VoM) Teotihuacan is founded 100 BCE. In 100 CE the Pyramid of the Sun is erected, marking the city’s swift rise to prominence. (TP) Cholula is founded in the 2nd century BCE. (V) The first monuments start to be erected in El Tajín.

Early Classic 200 – 600
(VoM) In 450 CE the Teotihuacan civilization peaks. In the 5th - 6th century Teotihuacan dominates the valley of Mexico virtually unopposed. But a series of droughts in the mid 6th centuries marks the beginning of the end. Sometime during the 7th century, the city is burned.

(VoM, TP) Xochicalco develops into a proper urban centre in the 8th century, Cacaxtla in the 5th century and together with Cholula the three cities fill the void of the declining Teotihuacan.

(OG) Zaptotec Monté Alban dominates Oaxaca until the end of the 6th century when its influence starts to wane.

(M) Tikal, Calakmul, Copán, Palenque, Uxmal, Cobá and Caracul are the premier cities of the Maya, particularly Tikal and Calakmul who frequently war against one another. In 562, Tikal suffers a catastrophic defeat at the hands of Caracul and Calakmul, as a result the city wanes from prominence and Caracul takes its place as first city of the Maya lowlands.

(V) In the area between the valley of Mexico and the Maya, the classic Veracruz culture develops and carves out its own little niche.
Legends of magical artifacts date from this era. The first regular use of short and regular Links start happening sometime during the 4th century, remaining at an infrequent level until the late 6th.

Late classic 600 – 900*
(VoM, TP)Teotihuacan suffers violent uprisings following severe droughts and famines and the city’s influence fades, eventually the city itself is destroyed. Cholula is taken over by the Olmec-Xicallanca and exerts its influence over the Puebla-Tlaxcalla plateau. Xochicalco develops swiftly into a regional power, but in 909 the city burns and its moment in the spotlight is no more. Cacaxtla develops into something of a military hegemony that even, for a brief period, control Cholula as well. But much like Xochicalco by the 900 the city is in steep decline. Tula develops into an urban centre and rapidly grows into a major centre, and as Teotihuacan’s power wanes the Tula influence grows.

(VoM) Azcapotzalco is founded close to the western shore of Lake Texcoco in the valley of Mexico in the 7th century. Around the same time Culhuacan is founded.

(V) The Classic Veracruz culture flourishes with El Tajín growing into its capital, being positioned on a strategical position along the trade routes.

(M) Tikal falls from prominence as Calakmul, Caracol, Palenque, Copán Dos Pilas Aguateca and Cancuén rises. Chichen Itza develops into an urban centre in the 8th century, Uxmal in the 9th.
Terminal Classic 800* - 1000

(VoM, TP) Cacaxtla is abandoned. Tula rises to be the only true rival to Cholula in the region, controlling a vast array of trade routes and becoming incredibly wealthy by trading obsidian.

(M) The southern Maya culture starts collapsing. Aguateca and Cancuén are destroyed by attackers in the early 9th century. Copán is defeated by a revolting vassal in the mid 8th century and gradually loses its population over the next 200 years. Around the same time Palenque is sacked and gradually fades from glory, by the ninth the city is only sparsely populated. Calakmul suffers a period of defeats and loss of its allies as Tikal starts to reassert itself.

Tikal recovers most of what it and rises once more to prominence and then a magical disaster strikes the city itself, wiping out the majority of the population and the remainder is then abandoned.

Up north in Yucatan, Uxmal and its ally Chichen Itza rises to their zenith: signaling the rise of the Puuc Maya cities of Yucatan as the premier ones (as opposed to the Petén Maya of Guatemala and Belize).

Early Post classic 900 - 1200
(TP, VoM) Cholula reaches its zenith of power, controlling virtually all of the surrounding lands. Cacaxtla is abandoned and a series of droughts hits Tula, together with the migration of some Chichimecan groups southwards (due to the same droughts) this proves too much for the city and it collapses. By the 12th century, Tula is no more. The Tolteca-Chicimecas conquer Cholula in the early years of the 13th century. Despite this Cholula remains the regional centre in the high plateau.

(VoM) The Tepanecs migrate south into the valley of Mexico in the late 12th or early 13th century, quickly establishing a presence, conquering Azcapotzalco and founding the city Tlacopan. Culhuacan grows into a regional power following the decline of Tula, competing with Azcapotzalco for the hegemony of the valley of Mexico. Texcoco is founded by Chichimecs in the 12th century.

(PB) Around lake Pátzcuaro, the P’urhépecha begin establishing themselves between 1000 CE and 1200 CE, slowly but steadily dominating the region and founding the cities Tzintzuntzan, Ihuatzio and Pátzcuero.

(V) El Tajín flourishes despite the collapse of many other central Mexican citystates, reaching its largest size and wealth in the 12th century.

(OG) Monte Alban in the south is more or less abandoned.

(M) Uxmal’s population disperses as the 11th century begins and the same fate hits most of the other Puuc cities of Yucatan. Though some of them, like Oxkintoc, Edzna and Kabbah remains settled but without much political influence. Chichen Itza begins a decline, but still retains influence over the region.

Late Post Classic 1200 - 1519
(V) El Tajín is ravaged by fire in the 13th century and shortly after its fall the Totonecs enter the region and establish Papantla, practically next to the abandoned El Tajín, signaling the end of the classical Veracruz culture.

(M) Chichen Itzá’s influence wanes as Mayapan revolts in 1220. After a brief hiatus of a few decades, the latter city establishes itself as the premier city state of the Maya.

(PB) In the early 14th century, Tzintzuntzan and Ihuatzio are given to the sons of the king of Pátzcuaro and they’re tasked with leading military campaigns from the city. The campaigns are successful and particularly Tzintzuntzan grows quickly in size and prominence. As the 15th century begins, the city eclipses the P’urépacha capital and takes its place (by that point having 5 times the population).

(VoM) In the 13th century, the Mexica peoples begin migrating into the Valley of Mexico, establishing small city-states here and there. One notable group convinced the king of Cualhuacan to allow them to settle a city in Chapultepec, offering him their services as mercenaries in return.

In 1315 a diplomatic incident involving sacrificing the daughter of the king of Cualhuacan by flaying her alive led Cualhuacan to, together with the tepanecs and the chichimecs, drive the Chapultec mexica out of their lands. The fleeing people sought refuge with Cualhuacan’s greatest rival Azcapotzalco who turned them into their vassals. In 1318 their protector attacked and forced the Mexica to increase their tribute. 1323 the Acolhua allied with the tepanecs and invaded the city of Texcoco, claiming it for the Acolhua.

1325 the Chapultec mexica were driven from their second home and sought refuge in a small island in Lake Texcoco. According to legend they decided upon the site by witnessing an eagle land on a cactus to eat a snake. They named their new city Tenochnitlan.

Azcapotzalco allied with Tenochnitlan and quickly began expanding its area of influence at the same time Culhuacan started losing its influence over the region. The rulers of Tenochnitlan still held Culhuacan in great respect and frequently married into their royal family, they also had their rulers be anointed by the priests of Cholula.

In 1426 the king of Azcapotzalco died and his son, Maxtla, usurped the throne. Tenochnitlan had supported the other son of the king and in response Maxtla had their tlatoani (king) assassinated and blockaded the city demanding more tribute. At the same time Maxtla also turned on Texcoco and forced their king into exile. Both cities decided to unite for the common cause and in 1427 two other city-states joined the alliance: Tlacopan and Huexotzinco. They emerged victorious and conquered Azcapotzalco. Huexotzinco withdrew from the alliance and the three remaining cities formed the Triple alliance.

The triple alliance co-opted much of Azcapotzalco old hegemony and then began to rapidly expand outwards. Invading and defeating Huasteca in the 1450, forcing them to become an autonomous vassal paying a massive tribute. The totonecs also quickly relented and became their vassals. But the kingdoms of Tlaxcala, the P’urépacha of the Pátzcuaro basin (who successfully employed copper weapons against the Mexica) and the zapotec city-states resisted the Triple alliance in multiple occasions (The Maya was well beyond the reach of the Triple Alliance).

(NS) Well outside Mesoamerica, a italian adventurer begin a series of journeys between 1492 and 1504, on behalf of Spain, discovering the Carribean islands. He founded La Navidad, Haiti in 1492 and then Isabella 1493 after the first settlement’s destruction at the hands of the locals. His brother founded Santa Domingo in 1496 and in 1500 Nueva Cádiz was founded on an island off the Venezuelan coast. In 1494 the treaty of Tordesillas is struck, dividing the world between Spain and Portugal (unbeknownst at the time, awarding Portugal with Brazil).

In 1497-1513 Amerigo de Vespucci conducts a series of voyages and manages to conclude that it was not Asia but a new continent that had been discovered.

In 1509 Alonso de Ojeda and Diego de Nicueda begin colonizing Tierra Firme also known as the Isthmus of Darien (Panama). Vasco Nuñes the Balboa flees his creditors in Hispaniola, spends 8 years exploring the region, 1510 founds the first permanent settlement, Santa María la Antigue del Darien, on the Vespuccian mainland and then becomes the first European to cross the isthmus, reach the Pacific Ocean in 1513.

In 1511 Diego Veláscuez de Cuéllar begins the conquest of Cuba, fighting a prolonged guerilla war against the local Taíno. In 1514 he cements his victory by founding Havana.

Cortez’s war

[SuperDave]

I just want to say that conversations like the one we're having right now about an alt-history Spanish/Aztec economic rivalry based on trade, piracy, and conquest (and the one before that about undead Aztec priests harvesting ghost-food from the Land of the Dead) are the reason that I have trouble doing productive things with my life. Watching all this awesomeness unfold from a few simple hypotheticals is just astounding. You guys are awesome!


P.S. Is anyone working on the Mayan Culture entry, or are they free game? I gots me some ideas.

P.P.S. Aux-Ash, the Mesoamerican timeline is blowing my mind. How did you even do so much research?

[zabbarot]

For the Mayans, I'm reading the Popol Vuh. I linked it earlier, but feel free to toss something up. So far I think we work best when we all just bounce ideas off each other.

[Aux-Ash]

P.P.S. Aux-Ash, the Mesoamerican timeline is blowing my mind. How did you even do so much research?

Slowly... and by keeping a separate webbrowser strictly for research. I usually have something like 30-40 tabs open on that one, constantly jumping from one to the other to cross check things. Writing things down as I confirm them in a document that I constantly revise.

Soeaking of which:

Some questions before I start writing down a suggestion of what happens 1519 - 1750.

Cortéz is supposed to die as he tries to flee Tenochnitlan, right? Whereas in reality he came back with a massive siege force.

When does the Amicqui start showing up? Are they Mexica or older?

Like Zabbarot mentioned, the Mexica, and others, seemed to almost worship a group of predeccesors they refered to as the toltecs (which seem to be a fictional construct on their part, rather than an actual culture). Tying this together with the Amicqui seems like a wonderful opportunity ("they speak the voice of the civilised ancestors"). Especially since Toltec pretty much means artisans or wise ones.
So from which group did they originate?

If the first one comes from Teotihuacán then it gives them, as a group, an extreme amount of experience and wisdom to draw on for guiding the living. However I'm not terribly fond of the idea since it'd make them much too old (almost 900 years or so).

Next candidate would be Cholula, which would tie into the nigh sacred properties ascribed to that city by the Mexica and others. And also tie together with how unusually long the city as lasted. Given that the rulers of Tenochnitlan went there to be annointed, it fits well. It also makes Cortez' crime of burning the city so much worse... maybe he even killed the eldest amicqui? *gasps*
I'd say that it's better than Teotihuacan since we could put their creation at a later period.

Tula (or Tollan) works as well, for the same reasons as Cholula works. It also paints the amicqui as not entirely reliable since they would have let their origin fall. It's also speculated to the origin of the word Toltec.

Or maybe it's a Maya practise that spread?
Which could put it as Petén basin Maya. Which fits with how I suggested Tikal to be destroyed in some mystic magic ritual.

Or it's Puuc Maya. Later period, which is nice but not too close.

Or it's the Itzá Maya, mirroring the nigh mythical status of Chichen Itza and it's concurrent cities.

Or maybe we do put it as a Mexica practise (or one of the otomi predeccessors like Azcapotzalco). The downside is that it'd make the Amicqui not even 100 years old. Limiting their impact, but on the bright side it really does show the mexica adding something new and exciting to mesovespuccian magic.

We could also add them to the Mixtecs, the P'urepacha (tarascans) or the zapotec as well. But these were never that dominant cultures.

I'd rather not put the amicqui as far back as Olmecs though. Mostly because I'd like to show that magic develops too and not all of it is ancient. That there's innovation and advances much like technology... and disaster too of course.

What do you guys think?

[zabbarot]

Cortéz is supposed to die as he tries to flee Tenochnitlan, right?

Yes, that's what we're going with.

When does the Amicqui start showing up? Are they Mexica or older?

Spoiler: For brevity

Show

Like Zabbarot mentioned, the Mexica, and others, seemed to almost worship a group of predeccesors they refered to as the toltecs (which seem to be a fictional construct on their part, rather than an actual culture). Tying this together with the Amicqui seems like a wonderful opportunity ("they speak the voice of the civilised ancestors"). Especially since Toltec pretty much means artisans or wise ones.
So from which group did they originate?

If the first one comes from Teotihuacán then it gives them, as a group, an extreme amount of experience and wisdom to draw on for guiding the living. However I'm not terribly fond of the idea since it'd make them much too old (almost 900 years or so).

Next candidate would be Cholula, which would tie into the nigh sacred properties ascribed to that city by the Mexica and others. And also tie together with how unusually long the city as lasted. Given that the rulers of Tenochnitlan went there to be annointed, it fits well. It also makes Cortez' crime of burning the city so much worse... maybe he even killed the eldest amicqui? *gasps*
I'd say that it's better than Teotihuacan since we could put their creation at a later period.

Tula (or Tollan) works as well, for the same reasons as Cholula works. It also paints the amicqui as not entirely reliable since they would have let their origin fall. It's also speculated to the origin of the word Toltec.

Or maybe it's a Maya practise that spread?
Which could put it as Petén basin Maya. Which fits with how I suggested Tikal to be destroyed in some mystic magic ritual.

Or it's Puuc Maya. Later period, which is nice but not too close.

Or it's the Itzá Maya, mirroring the nigh mythical status of Chichen Itza and it's concurrent cities.

Or maybe we do put it as a Mexica practise (or one of the otomi predeccessors like Azcapotzalco). The downside is that it'd make the Amicqui not even 100 years old. Limiting their impact, but on the bright side it really does show the mexica adding something new and exciting to mesovespuccian magic.

We could also add them to the Mixtecs, the P'urepacha (tarascans) or the zapotec as well. But these were never that dominant cultures.

I'd rather not put the amicqui as far back as Olmecs though. Mostly because I'd like to show that magic develops too and not all of it is ancient. That there's innovation and advances much like technology... and disaster too of course.

What do you guys think?

I like the idea of having them originate at Cholula(Cholollan in Nahuatl) so we can tie them to Quetzalcoatl. That way we can easily spread it to the Maya, who call him Kukulcan. It also makes sense as he's the god of knowledge.

With the burning of Cholula, which would likely house the oldest and wisest, we could even assume that most existing Amicqui were created after that point, so the oldest now is maybe around 250?

This also gives a good reason to work with BRC's idea of a grudge between the Aztec priesthood and Catholics.

[BRC]

There could also be different types of Amicqui
Maybe the absolute oldest come from Teotihuacán, but they are a primitive form, basically immobile, capable only of speech and largely incoherent, speaking only in vague pronouncements and never rising from stone thrones. Their age means that their wisdom and gift of prophecy is the strongest, but generally the least useful. They KNOW exactly what will happen, but even the other Amicqui have trouble figuring out what they're saying. If, for example, a Drought is coming an Ancient Amicqui may just shout the word "PREPARE!", then sit motionless for decades.

Cholula perfected the art of creating deathless Priests, fully mobile and capable of wielding powerful magic, though without magical protection they are physically fragile and weak (which is why they have a ton of magical buffs that they cast on themselves). There are also a few Craftsmen from this period. These Deathless were vulnerable to Fire, which led to them dying when Cortez torched the city.

The Mexica mastered the art, creating the supernaturally strong and durable Deathless Warriors to protect the Priests and prevent another incident like Cholula.

Actually, thinking about it, maybe we should just have the Priests originate in Cholula, and the Warriors originate with the Mexica, Cholula works very well as an origin point.

[Aux-Ash]

I like the idea of having them originate at Cholula(Cholollan in Nahuatl) so we can tie them to Quetzalcoatl. That way we can easily spread it to the Maya, who call him Kukulcan. It also makes sense as he's the god of knowledge.

With the burning of Cholula, which would likely house the oldest and wisest, we could even assume that most existing Amicqui were created after that point, so the oldest now is maybe around 250?

This also gives a good reason to work with BRC's idea of a grudge between the Aztec priesthood and Catholics.

Yeah, I like this version too. Though I imagine the eldest of them would be more akin to 400 or so. Not all the old ones died in the fires.

There could also be different types of Amicqui
Maybe the absolute oldest come from Teotihuacán, but they are a primitive form, basically immobile, capable only of speech and largely incoherent, speaking only in vague pronouncements and never rising from stone thrones. Their age means that their wisdom and gift of prophecy is the strongest, but generally the least useful. They KNOW exactly what will happen, but even the other Amicqui have trouble figuring out what they're saying. If, for example, a Drought is coming an Ancient Amicqui may just shout the word "PREPARE!", then sit motionless for decades.

Cholula perfected the art of creating deathless Priests, fully mobile and capable of wielding powerful magic, though without magical protection they are physically fragile and weak (which is why they have a ton of magical buffs that they cast on themselves). There are also a few Craftsmen from this period. These Deathless were vulnerable to Fire, which led to them dying when Cortez torched the city.

The Mexica mastered the art, creating the supernaturally strong and durable Deathless Warriors to protect the Priests and prevent another incident like Cholula.

Actually, thinking about it, maybe we should just have the Priests originate in Cholula, and the Warriors originate with the Mexica, Cholula works very well as an origin point.

I like that one. Prior to Cortez there were simply no need for deathless warriors. Noone would have dared touch the deathless in their pyramids. Now however, there's a percieved need for them.

I also absolutely love the picture of a corpse sitting on a throne and then randomly blurting out: Prepare! and the palace servants just look at one another confused.

[Admiral Squish]

You know, I'm not certain about this idea, now that I think about it. It may be stepping on the toes of the Inca and their mummified leaders.

[Mith]

You could argue that they are drawing from semi-similar origins, with the various peoples of the area achieving similar cultures based on the influences from the geographical area.

[SuperDave]

The Mexica mastered the art, creating the supernaturally strong and durable Deathless Warriors to protect the Priests and prevent another incident like Cholula.

Actually, thinking about it, maybe we should just have the Priests originate in Cholula, and the Warriors originate with the Mexica, Cholula works very well as an origin point.

I think it makes perfect sense that the ultra-militaristic Aztec Empire would have made the Warrior-caste their contribution to the Amicqui. Having them originate outside the Triple Alliance, however, helps create a sense that the magical arts, like technology, are developed over time, each new culture standing on the shoulders of the previous one.

I especially like the idea of the older "prototype" Amicqui being especially vulnerable to fire, since it ties so many things together so nicely: the reason we don't have too many truly ancient Amicqui sitting around, even though the "technology" has existed for centuries, and also the source of the deep-seated grudge between the Aztec and the Spanish and the reason it hasn't subsided with the centuries.

I imagine the eldest of them would be more akin to 400 or so. Not all the old ones died in the fires.

Agreed. This seems a reasonable age for the oldest Deathless priests. Plus, if they're so revered by the Mexica, I'm sure that someone would have been willing to die to save one or two of them, even at the expense of his own life; if the Cathedral of Saint John the Baptist were burning down, I'd bet that at least one person would think to grab the Shroud of Turin on their way out.

I like that one. Prior to Cortez there were simply no need for deathless warriors. Noone would have dared touch the deathless in their pyramids. Now however, there's a percieved need for them.

That explains it perfectly! Destroying one of the Amicqui would be like burning the Library of Alexandria: nobody could imagine how anyone could want to destroy something so universally beneficial, until some jerk comes along to ruin it for everyone.

I also absolutely love the picture of a corpse sitting on a throne and then randomly blurting out: Prepare! and the palace servants just look at one another confused.

I had exactly the same thought! I want to use it in one of my own campaigns someday.

You know, I'm not certain about this idea, now that I think about it. It may be stepping on the toes of the Inca and their mummified leaders.

You know, I had the same thought when it was first brought up, but the idea is so appropriate, so perfect for the setting, and so lovingly crafted, that I really can't resist its inclusion. Besides, South Vespuccia is a long way off (assuming we ever really flesh it out), and I'm sure we'll be able to think of a few ways to differentiate the Incan mummies from their Mesovespuccian counterparts (for example, being tougher/stronger, being much older, throwing off holy/divine energy all over the place, being solar-powered, etc.).

[BRC]

That explains it perfectly! Destroying one of the Amicqui would be like burning the Library of Alexandria: nobody could imagine how anyone could want to destroy something so universally beneficial, until some jerk comes along to ruin it for everyone.

Yeah. I imagine that before Cortez the idea of somebody intentionally destroying an Amicqui would be unthinkable.If you sacked a city and put its people to the sword, you would still NOT harm the Amicqui. At the most you might take them and set them up in your temples. But these are the people that the gods themselves sent back to earth. They speak with the voice of the ancients and carry the wisdom of the ages.

You do NOT kill one.

You know, unless you're Cortez.

[SuperDave]

I meant to post this last night. Here's what I've got so far for the Maya:

{TABLE=HEAD]Name|Background Feats|Background Skills|Home Language|Bonus Languages|Taboos
Mayan|Famine Tolerance*, Leaf Singer, Nimble Moves, Noble Scion, Green Guardian, Self-Sufficient, Totem Spirit, Voice of the Sibyl**, Warrior Priest|Appraise, Climb, Craft, Handle Canoe***, Knowledge (Nature), Knowledge (Nobility), Knowledge (Religion), Stealth, Survival, Swim|(any Mayan)|(any other Mayan), Espanol, Nahuatl|(WIP)
[/TABLE]
* is there a human version of this feat?
** needs a more culturally-appropriate name
*** see Voyageur. (Personally, I think this new skill is exactly what we need for a setting that will heavily feature canoe-travel.)

I know there are too many potential background feats and skills, but I thought I'd propose all the ones I thought of and let you guys decide which you think are most appropriate.

Spoiler: Mayan Culture

Show

• Description: The Maya are brown-skinned humans who live in the highlands and coastal regions of the Yucatán peninsula in Mesovespuccia. They tend to be relatively short in height, ranging from 4’ 8” to 5’ 2”. Straight black hair is nearly universal, as are very dark brown eyes and large, heavy earlobes.
  Some members of the noble class file their teeth to points, or drill holes in them and fill the holes with jade and other precious stones.
  
  • Clothing: Due to the climate of their homeland, the Maya typically wear few articles of clothing. Because of this, garments are not as important as status-symbols to the Maya as they are to some other cultures; tattoos, scars, feathered headdresses, and jewelry all carry greater social cache than clothing.
  • Grooming: sweat bath, or zumpul-ché
• Psychology: (WIP)
• Life: The Maya consider crossed eyes to be a mark of beauty, and will often tie small baubles to their infants’ forelocks to make them slightly crosseyed. The Maya also flatten their infants’ heads between stiff cradleboards, to produce an elegant, elongated skull and a sloped forehead. Although the practice is frequently fatal, it has not been found to have any effect on the child's intelligence, as infant brains have a great deal of plasticity.
  At the age of four, children transition from infancy to childhood: girls have a red shell tied around their waists, while boys have a white bead tied to their hair. At the ages of 12 and 16, respectively, the shell and bead are removed in a coming-of-age ceremony. Around this time, parents will seek out the services of a professional atanzahab (matchmaker), to find their child a spouse with a compatible horoscope and a reputable family.
  
  • Arts and Crafts: The Maya are renowned for their exquisite works of art across many mediums, including pottery, jewelry, sculpture, architecture, calligraphy, and featherwork. Mayan potters are among the most talented in Mesovespuccia, and their work is much sought-after for its bright color, its smooth glaze, and the delicate beauty of its painted surface.
  • Technology and Magic: Though the Maya had knowledge of the wheel for centuries before contact with the Spaniards, the concept was useless to them without beasts of burden to pull heavy loads. In the 250 years since then, the Maya have eagerly adopted the horse, pig, goat, and many other domesticated animals, though many farmers are too poor to afford them. Merchants now carry their goods by horse-drawn cart instead of porter, and oxen can be seen pulling iron plows through maize-fields (though the poorest farmers are still forced to till the earth by hand).
  • Love: (WIP)
  • War: Though they are not nearly so warlike as their Mexica neighbors, the Maya are no strangers to the arts of warfare.
  • Death: Ancestor-worship is universal (?) among the Maya. The dead are revered for their ability to intercede with the gods on their descendants’ behalf. In order to keep their beloved ancestors close-by, commoners typically bury their dead under a stone slab beneath the floors of their own homes. About a year after death, the remains of the deceased are exhumed: their bones are lovingly rearranged, and the skull’s mouth is filled with maize and a jade bead representing the soul. The wealthy provide lavish burials for their relatives, and nobles erect temples and pyramids to the memory of their illustrious forebears.
• Society and Culture: The Maya do not have a single unified state as the Aztec do; the city-state is the basic form of Maya government.
  
  • Leadership: Each city-state is ruled by a hereditary council of advisors, judges, magistrates, and governors. Kings have not been common since the Great Collapse, about 600 (?) years ago. The causes of this collapse are not well known, even to Maya historians.
  • Social Structure: Officially, Mayan society is divided into two classes: nobles and commoners. In practice, there is something of an unofficial middle class made up of wealthy merchants, talented artisans, and high-ranking warriors.
  • Family: Commoners typically live with their nuclear families in an oblong thatched hut called a na. Extended families live in clusters of two to six na, called nalil (nah LEEL), which are sometimes arranged around a central courtyard used for daily activities such as weaving and pottery.
  • Traditions: (WIP)
• Other Races/Cultures: (WIP)
• Religion: The Maya do not make a distinction between the mundane and the divine; every aspect of existence is imbued with divine energy, k’in (k EEN), which suffuses the entire universe, much as blood suffuses every organ in the human body. The gods, who guide the workings of the universe, require sacrifices of human blood to sustain them: usually, this means the offerants simply bleed themselves and smear their blood on idols, though the occasional sacrifice of a human life is necessary to keep the universe in proper working-order.
• History and Folklore: The Maya have an incredibly long and complex history, though the study of their chronicles is somewhat complicated by the fact that they routinely include mythical rulers matter-of-factly alongside historical kings.
• Language: The Maya speak more than thirty-five distinct languages, many of which are endemic to only a few villages or towns.
  
  • Phrasebook: (WIP)
  • Written Language: The written language of the Maya is highly advanced and nuanced: their syllabary is composed of more than 800 distinct glyphs, which can stand for both sounds and ideas, and can be combined with each other in numerous ways.
  • Names: Owing to the immense importance the Maya place on time, most Mayan children are named for the day they are born (Six-Monkey, Eleven-Knife, Four-Crocodile, etc.). Great lords and military leaders often take names based on their accomplishments ("he-of-the-twenty-captives", or "spear-hurler").
• Cities and Settlements:
  
  • Economy: Mayan traders range throughout Mesovespuccia, exchanging pottery and jewelry for rare feathers, copal (incense), guns, and magic items.
  • Example City: Chichén Itzá (pop. ???)
• Creating Mayan Characters: The Maya make excellent merchants, spies, shamans, and warriors.
  
  • Special Mayan Options: (WIP)
  • Maya as Characters:(WIP)

[SuperDave]

So, uh... any thoughts on the Mayan Culture write-up? Things that need work or fixing, or are just flat-out wrong?

Any feats that don't fit with our conception of the Maya? Different skill sets? they should have?

By the way: just so we're clear, I did not write Xicalango, Nexus of Worlds. That work is Copyright 2007 by W C Davidson.

[zabbarot]

The Mayan right write up looks mostly fine, though now I'm wondering how common the head reshaping really was, and I'm not sure how much the practice would continue. Apparently it was practiced by a few people in France until the 20th century, so I guess it might survive fine.

You might want to drop the city unless you've spoken to the creator about it though.

[SuperDave]

I wanted to reach out to the author first, but his contact information isn't on the page, and you have to sign up for Zoho Docs to see anything more. There's a free trial option I could sign up for, but upon further investigation, he seems to have done a lot of work on all kinds of D&D stuff based on Central America and the Caribbean. I wonder if maybe using his material would make our setting seem less like our own creation and more like his.

I guess it should probably go. Drafting up our own example-city is probably a better idea than borrowing from someone else, no matter how neat their idea might be. (But do we still want to borrow his rules for the Mesoamerican ball game, or make up our own?)

-------------------

Here's a little something I've been working on lately:

Monsters of Aztlan

• Ahuizotl - an evil aquatic beast which is part dog and part monkey, with a clawed human hand protruding from the end of its tail.
• Alebrijes - brightly colored wooden sculptures of fantastical creatures, similar to tiny gargoyles.
• Balam - four supernatural jaguars who protect the lands and villages of the Quiche Maya:
  
  • Iqi-Balam (Moon Jaguar)
  • Balam-Agab (Night Jaguar)
  • Balam-Quitze (Smiling Jaguar)
  • Mahu-Catah (Famous Name)
• Chac - a Maztican weather spirit that helps control the rain and resembles a bipedal jaguar; tears symbolizing rain pour eternally down its cheeks.
• Chaneque - small, sprite-like children with the faces of old men and women. They confuse travellers and mess with their memories. Sometimes they will scare the soul out of a victim’s body and hide it in a natural feature of the earth; without it, the victim soon sickens and dies.
• Itcuintlipotzotli (a.k.a. Chupacabra) - a doglike monster that kills and drinks the blood of livestock (esp. goats).
• Cihuateotl - spirits of women who died in childbirth.
• Cipactli - offspring of the primordial crocodile/toad/fish monster who ate the world in its infancy.
• Civatateo - noblewomen who died during childbirth and, after returning to the land of the living, stalk travelers and haunted temples.
• Giant, Quinametzin - a race of giants from the time of the First Sun. Most of their race were eaten by jaguars.
• Hoga - A massive, color-shifting (i.e. camouflaged) fish-like lake monster dwelling at the bottom of Lake of Themistitan. It has a head and ears like a pig, with thick catfish whiskers around its mouth, and large tusks. It has an unusual ability to change its color from red to green to yellow, possibly by way of blending in with its surroundings.
• Jagwere - a magical beast that takes the form of a humanoid-jaguar hybrid.
• La Llorona - the eternally-weeping ghost of a spurned woman who murdered her own children.
• Lizardfolk, Cayman - tiny crocodilian lizard-men
• Lycanthropes:
  
  • Camazotl (werebat)
  • Tehuantiltec (werejaguar, template)¹
  • Cipactlitec (werecaiman/werecrocodile)
• Nagual - a human being who has the power to magically turn him- or herself into an animal form: most commonly a donkey, turkey, or dog, but also other and more powerful animals such as the jaguar and puma.
• Plumazotl, Greater - a powerful living embodiment of pluma magic.
• Plumazotl, Lesser - a living embodiment of pluma magic.
• Pyro Snake - a fire-dwelling serpent of immense proportions.
• Talaxi - Maztican jaguar-men.
• Telexian Vine - a carnivorous, magic-eating plant.
• Tlalocoatl (Rain Dragon) - powerful two-headed serpents who control both rain and drought.
• Tuyewera - a maimed corpse, animated by the ancestral spirit of a powerful spellcaster
• Tlatecuhtli - A huge frog associated with Coatlique, the snake-headed goddess of life, death, and rebirth. Its large, fanged mouth is the entrance to the Underworld.
• Tlahuelpuchi - a Mesovespuccian vampire-witch, capable of taking animal shape.
• Tepeyollotl - a titanic jaguar who eats the sun each night.
• Tzitzimitl (plural tzitzimimeh) - skeletal Aztec goddesses associated with stars and night.
• Xiuhcoatl (Fire Serpent or Turquoise Serpent) - the draconic personification of drought and scorched earth.
• Xolotl - a skeletal dog of the underworld, with backward feet. Associated with fire, lightning, sickness, deformities, and death.
• Yumilekax - forest spirits who take the form of deer and punish hunters who kill for sport. Their king, Nohoch Ceh, has a rack so large that bees make their nest in his antlers.

¹ - note that these are cursed individuals, whereas the somewhat confusingly-named "Jagweres" are a true-breeding species of magical beast. Note that this confusion could become a plot-point, as a human village ravaged by a lone Tehuantiltec retaliates against a nearby band of jagweres by mistake.

(How do we feel about using monsters created for the old Maztica Campaign Setting? Of course I'd always prefer using monsters we stat up ourselves, but monsters from official Wizards of the Coast material have the advantage of having been thoroughly play-tested, and we could just use their stats as placeholders until we come up with stats of our own.)

[Admiral Squish]

Hey guys, sorry for my recent silence, I've been a tad distracted. Been sorta tinkering with an old project.

Anywho, I'm back, to comment on the recent developments!

Spoiler: Re-Mayan Culture

Show

Looking at the feat list, only one or two of them seem to work in my brain. Some could be made to work with some minor editing (or major editing), but for now, we should trim down the list to Noble Scion and Nimble Moves. Perhaps you could explain why you chose stuff like green singer or self-sufficient? That may ease my objections.

You should probably go into more detail regarding the sweat bath, and probably warfare. Remember, most people don't enjoy doing research the way we do, the culture entry needs to be quite comprehensive. We have to be able to paint a pretty vivid picture with just this entry.
And yeah, I'll second the sentiment that we should probably not use Xicalango. It's certainly interesting, but it is copyrighted.

Spoiler: Monsters

Show

As I mentioned earlier, I don't think we can use stuff from places other than the SRD. They have a variety of unusual copyrights and honestly, without a lawyer handy, I don't think it wise. I do like the monsters, but I think we're better off creating as much of it as we can ourselves.

Anyways, going back a bit to the amicqui. I do think it deserves to be included. My only confusion is how to include them. Does their existence go into culture? Do we just put them in as a monster and hope people read over the monster entry and include them?
Also, I think we could compare the process of becoming an amicqui to the process of being canonized as a saint. After a notable priest dies, the others gather and debate whether or not they deserve to be raised once again as an amicqui.

[SuperDave]

Looking at the feat list, only one or two of them seem to work in my brain. Some could be made to work with some minor editing (or major editing), but for now, we should trim down the list to Noble Scion and Nimble Moves. Perhaps you could explain why you chose stuff like green singer or self-sufficient? That may ease my objections.

You should probably go into more detail regarding the sweat bath, and probably warfare. Remember, most people don't enjoy doing research the way we do, the culture entry needs to be quite comprehensive. We have to be able to paint a pretty vivid picture with just this entry.
And yeah, I'll second the sentiment that we should probably not use Xicalango. It's certainly interesting, but it is copyrighted.

Oh, I definitely didn't intend for this to be a complete Culture entry. I was just taking zabbarot's suggestion that we bounce ideas off each other. Other commenters can feel free to add or edit whatever about it they'd like.

I'm having a lot of difficulty finding taboos for the Maya. Anthropology articles seem to only talk about having taboos against sexual contact during maize-planting season (not likely to come up at any gaming table), and against viewing solar or lunar eclipses (ditto).

As for the feats, here's my reasoning behind each of them:

{TABLE=HEAD]Feat|Reason for inclusion
Famine Tolerance|The Yucatan is famously prone to famine. I realize that the feat is for vampires, but we could probably cook up something similar for living humans.
Leaf Singer|The Mayan people have long histories, and it's not inconceivable that they might sometimes recount these histories in forests.
Nimble Moves|Moving through the jungle requires deft movements and surefootedness. This feat would help with that.
Noble Scion|Mayans were big on nobility.
Green Guardian|Not really sure what I was thinking with this one. Stricken!
Self-Sufficient|Maya who live in tribal areas would be adept at this.
Totem Spirit|It's designed for jungle-clans. I thought it was thematically appropriate. Maybe we could change it from being clan-based to uay-based?
Voice of the Sibyl|I thought it would be good for prophecies and public-speaking, both of which the Maya did in abundance. But maybe a straight bonus to divination would be better.
Warrior Priest|The Maya are famous for both warriors and priests. Seems appropriate.
[/TABLE]

As I mentioned earlier, I don't think we can use stuff from places other than the SRD. They have a variety of unusual copyrights and honestly, without a lawyer handy, I don't think it wise. I do like the monsters, but I think we're better off creating as much of it as we can ourselves.

As I've said before, I'd definitely always prefer to use monsters we make ourselves. But so far, only a tiny handful of those have actually been statted up, and if we wait until we've got 'em all done, I think we're gonna be waiting for a long while.

In the meantime, I thought that I might as well post stats for the monsters that I've found so far. As long as we're citing the original source and not making any money off of this, they're covered under Fair Use (I think? ). Besides, even if we don't use any of these monsters in the "official" setting, plenty of DMs may find themselves wondering where to find the stats for those jaguar-men they read about that one time, and contributors might be able to use the stats as inspiration or reference for their own monsters.

(Note: I've also added templates for werebats, werejaguars, and werecaimans/werecrocodiles. Can't believe I forgot about lycanthropes!)

Anyways, going back a bit to the amicqui. I do think it deserves to be included. My only confusion is how to include them. Does their existence go into Culture? Do we just put them in as a monster and hope people read over the monster entry and include them?
Also, I think we could compare the process of becoming an amicqui to the process of being canonized as a saint. After a notable priest dies, the others gather and debate whether or not they deserve to be raised once again as an amicqui.

"Does their existence go into culture?" You mean 'should we file them under Cultures or Monsters'? I guess Monsters seems more appropriate, since (presumably) players will never have the option to become Amicqui themselves. We'll definitely have to mention them in the Aztlan timeline, since they're responsible for the creation of the Spirit Fields, and

I like the idea of a canonization process for Amicqui. But I thought that it was going to be a more spontaneous, unpredictable thing? Like, you sacrifice a priest, and if he comes back to life, you know that the gods want him to continue serving them in the mortal world as one of the Deathless.

[SuperDave]

So I've been working on the Equipment List for a while now. It finally got so huge that I was forced to give it its own thread. Drop me a line and let me know what you think of it!

[Aux-Ash]

Regarding the Mayan feats:

I'm not sure about famine tolerance. Why single out the Mayans? They're hardly the only people in history to suffer famines, nor did they seem to handle them much better.

I could see self sufficient fitting them decently though.

I'm very hesitant about totem spirit. I can't find anything that suggest that the Mayans were particularily animistic. The Wayob you link to seem to be more of a monster than somehting blessed by spirits.

Regarding Amicqui:
Given their importance to mesovespuccian society, they really ought to be in the culture text of that region. However, a monster entry may be useful to describe what an Amicqui is.

This is how I suggest inserting them into the mesovespuccian timeline up until 1519 (not finished with Cortez invasion and the Yucatan campaigns yet, let alone what happened after):

In 743 in a great ritual inside the great Pyramid of Cholula the first of the hallowed Amicqui is sacrificed and after a long night rises again.

1000 CE the Amicqui of Cholula number 12, there is also 4 more in Tula.

In the 11th century the process of sacrificing priests to become Amicqui spreads further and the process is adopted in Azcapotzalco, Tlacopan, Texcoco and Culhuacan. The Amicqui of Tula is relocated to Culhuacan as well.

In 1015, the very first Mayan Amicqui rises in Chichen Itzá.

Most of Azcapotzalco’s Amicqui were relocated to Tenochnitlan following the triumph of the triple alliance and soon they were joined by new ones from Tenochnitlan itself.

In 1519, there were 84 Amicqui spread out between the various cities in the region, 9 of them residing in Mayan cities in Yucatan and one in the Petén Basin and 2 in Tzintzuntzan. Just a few years prior, in 1515, the Amicqui of Tenochnitlan and Cholula ordered a specific ritual to be undertaken in the former city. Carefully preparing it for months and then during a festival finally casting it: establishing the very first spirit field in the spirit world. It would remain unstaffed for over two decades however. Scarred monks in Spanish Carribean writes about sensing something strange happening at the time, Cahokian stories references a strange feeling around this time. Contemporary Mexica literature discusses the event with great confusion regarding what exactly had happened and why.

Thoughts?

I mostly added the Mayan and P'urepacha ones because I figured the practise would spread, given the massive contact between the peoples in the region.

[Admiral Squish]

Oh, idea! Mention of obsidian in the equipment thread gives me ideas.

So, obsidian was used in war-clubs, but I imagine taking it up a step. Magic can be used to absorb obsidian flakes/shards and compress them into a single cohesive lump of stone. Magic to grant the blade some more structural integrity, and now we have weapons made entirely of obsidian. Or, if not completely made out of obsidian, it could at the very least be formed into a blade edge.
Now, properties of this material? I think we should make in increase the threat range of the crafted weapon, but that's fairly obvious. I think we could say it increases the threat range by 1, and it can only be used to make slashing weapons. Honestly, though, that seems kinda boring. What else can we add in?

[SuperDave]

Regarding the Mayan feats:

I'm not sure about famine tolerance. Why single out the Mayans? They're hardly the only people in history to suffer famines, nor did they seem to handle them much better.

Well, it’s definitely not something that’d be unique to the Maya. It’d be an appropriate feat for just about any culture in Mesovespuccia. That area is highly prone to drought and famine, after all. Anyone who grew up there would probably be used to going without food at least once in a while, and may have developed coping mechanisms to deal with it more effectively than someone who had never experienced famine.

Thinking about this more, though, I realize that the food supply was not that steady no matter where you go in the 1700s. So maybe it should be removed after all.

I could see self sufficient fitting them decently though.

I thought so. It’d probably be taken only by rural or jungle-dwelling commoners, though; there’s no way an ahau is going to let his heir go traipsing through the forest to hunt his own food like a peasant!

I'm very hesitant about totem spirit. I can't find anything that suggest that the Mayans were particularily animistic. The Wayob you link to seem to be more of a monster than somehting blessed by spirits.

Yeah, I guess I just saw the phrase “jungle tribes” in the feat description and thought it’d fit. Upon closer research, I’ve found that uayob (plural of uay) are more like polymorphed shamans than the Mayan patronuses I thought they were. I guess it can go.

Regarding Amicqui:
Given their importance to mesovespuccian society, they really ought to be in the culture text of that region. However, a monster entry may be useful to describe what an Amicqui is.

Agreed. We should mention them somewhere in the Culture entry, and wherever we first mention them can be a hyperlink to whatever stats we make for them. Well, actually it’d probably be a template, now that I think about it. Would it be basically the same as the Deathless template, or would we add some significant differences?

*Aztlan timeline snipped for brevity*

This timeline of your is freaking amazing. We need to do one of these for every region of Vespuccia! Let me know once you feel comfortable with the (eventual) completed timeline, and I’ll ask AdmiralSquish to add it to the front page. Or else link to it from the front page, if we need to save space.

So, obsidian was used in war-clubs, but I imagine taking it up a step. Magic can be used to absorb obsidian flakes/shards and compress them into a single cohesive lump of stone. Magic to grant the blade some more structural integrity, and now we have weapons made entirely of obsidian. Or, if not completely made out of obsidian, it could at the very least be formed into a blade edge.
Now, properties of this material? I think we should make in increase the threat range of the crafted weapon, but that's fairly obvious. I think we could say it increases the threat range by 1, and it can only be used to make slashing weapons. Honestly, though, that seems kinda boring. What else can we add in?

Well, I kind of feel like the rules-as-written don't adequately express how insanely sharp obsidian is: I'm told it naturally forms edges sharper than modern surgical steel. So I feel that all magic could really do is make it sturdier; you can't get much sharper than a single molecule, now can you?

It's pretty easy to turn a dagger from a slashing weapon to a piercing weapon. You just poke 'em with it. So I don't know about slashing-only, but maybe spellshaped obsidian removes the "fragile" quality from obsidian weapons, and increases their Hardness by a few points?