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  1. - Top - End - #121
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    Default Re: No love for Neutral alignments in OOTS

    Quote Originally Posted by Evazan View Post
    I don't know if you've heard of this fellow named Xykon, but he's perfectly happy preserving the universe, so I guess that means he's good. Heck, he's even following a plan that will unite the world under him--he must be lawful! Therefore, Xykon is lawful good. QED.

    Or not, and that's proof by contradiction that "trying to preserve the universe" implies neither goodness or lawfulness.
    Yep.

    "I LIKE the universe. Some of my best evil took place here. I'm not going to destroy it unless I get REALLY bored."

    He's talking about preserving the universe or not preserving based on his own enjoyment, and majorly upsetting the status quo in his favor.

    Girard was working tirelessly and obligating his family to do the same, ultimately lowering their quality of life to preserve the universe at all costs, although I can see how that's exactly the same as "wouldn't necessarily destroy the universe if given the opportunity." I see your point.
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  2. - Top - End - #122
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    Default Re: No love for Neutral alignments in OOTS

    I have to shake my head at the idea that only...maybe three alignments out of nine, based on your claim that "preserving the universe" is either Good or Lawful?...would see any value in there being anything for them to stand on.

    I'm not going to join the match of sarcasm volleys--fond as I normally am of sarcasm. I think the argument that "preserving the universe" proves someone anything other than not-completely-nihilistic (And, though I do not believe I should have to spell this out, not-completely-nihilistic describes the majority of people of all alignments) is silly to the point of being self-refuting, and so I have no counter-argument to it, beyond that "You don't think it falls apart when glanced at? Huh."

    I will, however, note that any claims about how much (or how little) Girard or his family gave up are based on assumptions. Perhaps he cried himself to sleep every night, wailing about how much it hurt him to have to sponsor the kidnappings of innocent people's children (and the incidental cleaning out of their savings). Perhaps sitting in the middle of his web of deceptions, surrounded by people who had been raised and brainwashed to revere him, was all he ever wanted from his life. The former is no more easily supported by the evidence in the comic than the latter. (In fact, if you pay close attention to the wording you might get the idea that I think the former is kind of a silly claim itself.)
    Last edited by Kish; 2013-07-22 at 05:36 PM.

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    Default Re: No love for Neutral alignments in OOTS

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    I have to shake my head at the idea that only...maybe three alignments out of nine, based on your claim that "preserving the universe" is either Good or Lawful?...would see any value in there being anything for them to stand on.

    I'm not going to join the match of sarcasm volleys--fond as I normally am of sarcasm. I think the argument that "preserving the universe" proves someone anything other than not-completely-nihilistic (And, though I do not believe I should have to spell this out, not-completely-nihilistic describes the majority of people of all alignments) is silly to the point of being self-refuting, and so I have no counter-argument to it, beyond that "You don't think it falls apart when glanced at? Huh."

    I will, however, note that any claims about how much (or how little) Girard or his family gave up are based on assumptions. Perhaps he cried himself to sleep every night, wailing about how much it hurt him to have to sponsor the kidnappings of innocent people's children (and the incidental cleaning out of their savings). Perhaps sitting in the middle of his web of deceptions, surrounded by people who had been raised and brainwashed to revere him, was all he ever wanted from his life. The former is no more easily supported by the evidence in the comic than the latter. (In fact, if you pay close attention to the wording you might get the idea that I think the former is kind of a silly claim itself.)
    I said Girard was probably True Neutral, despite the great service he was doing for everyone (without asking for much, even considering the thefts).

    And people we'd normally call "good" often ARE doing what they're doing on the assumption that it is saving the world, not simply improving it.

    Destroying creation will always be evil. Preserving it may be only self-interest, but dang if I wouldn't appreciate whoever did it.

    Besides, everyone who could alter the fate of Ootsworld could probably escape instead.

    So Xykon=bad because he's risking destroying the world to ensure his own benefit.

    Girard=good(ish) because he's risking his family for the world's benefit.

    In both cases, alignment is secondary to other qualities: Girard's paranoia, Xykon's hedonism.
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  4. - Top - End - #124
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    Default Re: No love for Neutral alignments in OOTS

    Quote Originally Posted by sengmeng View Post
    Besides, everyone who could alter the fate of Ootsworld could probably escape instead.
    Quite a claim.
    So Xykon=bad because he's risking destroying the world to ensure his own benefit.
    Also quite a claim. I am afraid I think Xykon would be just as bad--would be, even, fully as evil as he is now--if he learned the truth of the Dark One's ritual and gave up the Plan for an equally brutal plan for world domination that happened to have no chance of global annihilation.

    And then there's Nale. Rich described him as no less evil than Xykon. Yet, there is no indication that his plans feature the possible or definite destruction of the world anywhere. I guess that's not Rich's definition either then.
    I said Girard was probably True Neutral, despite the great service he was doing for everyone (without asking for much, even considering the thefts).
    ...Wow. I wonder how many people would agree that "your child will disappear shortly after being born, you will never see her again, and incidentally all your money will go as well, and I'm not actually offering you a choice or a warning here, this is all going to come as a horrible surprise to you after you get fooled into thinking one of my homegrown sociopaths is in love with you" is not asking much. Very few, I hope.

    And your claim that Girard was doing everyone, or anyone other than himself, a service is as completely unsupported as it ever was. Your claim that he was "risking his family for the world's benefit" is even worse; I understand the chain that leads to the first (it goes, "Wanting to have something to stand on is a selfless motivation,"); I don't get what you're talking about with the latter at all. If his family (if he would even have a family without kidnapping, which is another extremely questionable claim) simply left the gate to its own devices they would be destroyed with the world or ground under Xykon's heel with everyone else in the world.
    Last edited by Kish; 2013-07-22 at 06:11 PM.

  5. - Top - End - #125
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    Default Re: No love for Neutral alignments in OOTS

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    I am afraid I think Xykon would be just as bad--would be, even, fully as evil as he is now--if he learned the truth of the Dark One's ritual and gave up the Plan for an equally brutal plan for world domination that happened to have no chance of global annihilation.
    No, just saner.

    And then there's Nale. Rich described him as no less evil than Xykon. Yet, there is no indication that his plans feature the possible or definite destruction of the world anywhere. I guess that's not Rich's definition either then.
    If tampering with the gates doesn't sound like risking killing the whole Ootsworld, then I don't know if we read the same comic.

    ...Wow. I wonder how many people would agree that "your child will disappear shortly after being born, you will never see her again, and incidentally all your money will go as well, and I'm not actually offering you a choice or a warning here, this is all going to come as a horrible surprise to you after you get fooled into thinking one of my homegrown sociopaths is in love with you" is not asking much. Very few, I hope.

    And your claim that Girard was doing everyone, or anyone other than himself, a service is as completely unsupported as it ever was. Your claim that he was "risking his family for the world's benefit" is even worse; I understand the chain that leads to the first (it goes, "Wanting to have something to stand on is a selfless motivation,"); I don't get what you're talking about with the latter at all. If his family (if he would even have a family without kidnapping, which is another extremely questionable claim) simply left the gate to its own devices they would be destroyed with the world or ground under Xykon's heel with everyone else in the world.
    I never said Girard was right; mostly just that his actions are not fully explained by his alignment, which I'm not even sure of. He's putting his family in danger by tasking them with guarding the gate, but it's paranoia, not good or evil, making him do these awful things for this wonderful reason.


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  6. - Top - End - #126
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    Default Re: No love for Neutral alignments in OOTS

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    And your claim that Girard was doing everyone, or anyone other than himself, a service is as completely unsupported as it ever was. Your claim that he was "risking his family for the world's benefit" is even worse; I understand the chain that leads to the first (it goes, "Wanting to have something to stand on is a selfless motivation,"); I don't get what you're talking about with the latter at all. If his family (if he would even have a family without kidnapping, which is another extremely questionable claim) simply left the gate to its own devices they would be destroyed with the world or ground under Xykon's heel with everyone else in the world.
    To be fair, any spellcaster who can cast 9th level spells can take anyone he wants to the Outer Planes, whenever he wants. If Girard had decided to ditch his responsibilities as a Gatekeeper and take his family with them, they could undoubtedly have carved out pretty good lives for themselves in the Outer Planes of their choice.

    Although overall, I agree with your take on Girard & co. I just expect that he was more interested in defending the Gate because he saw it as his purpose in life and found it fulfilling, rather than because he was a self-preservationist at heart.
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  7. - Top - End - #127
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    Default Re: No love for Neutral alignments in OOTS

    Damn Neutrals!

    PS how was Girard neutral on the law/chaos scale? I could certainly see neutral on the good/evil scale (as well as some arguments in either direction), but when what suggests lawful for him? If anything, he seems like an "off the deep end" chaotic character (extreme paranoia, presumably instituting the child abduction gate protection program, etc.)

  8. - Top - End - #128
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    Default Re: No love for Neutral alignments in OOTS

    Quote Originally Posted by mhsmith View Post
    Damn Neutrals!

    PS how was Girard neutral on the law/chaos scale? I could certainly see neutral on the good/evil scale (as well as some arguments in either direction), but when what suggests lawful for him? If anything, he seems like an "off the deep end" chaotic character (extreme paranoia, presumably instituting the child abduction gate protection program, etc.)
    I was wondering if the neutral planet would show up on this thread.

    We've gone to beige alert.

    As for how is Girard lawful... I'm not sure. His system was well-organized, his family well disciplined, and his plans intricate, but that's hardly definitive. I don't know.
    Last edited by sengmeng; 2013-07-22 at 06:31 PM.
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  9. - Top - End - #129
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    Default Re: No love for Neutral alignments in OOTS

    I simply do not understand why people continue to automatically assume that the child theft practices of the Draketooth Clan should be laid at Girard's door, alignment wise.

    We have zero evidence, zero, that Girard himself had anything at all to do with it.

    What we do know about Girard himself, is that he went on an epic adventure to protect the universe with companions, four of which were good, a paladin associated with him for years without falling, he dedicated his entire life to the protection of a Gate, he was suspicious of authority to the point of setting lethal traps intended to be triggered by paladins, a chaotic good companion was at the least infatuated with him, and continued to associate with him for many years, he was deeply, deeply upset when it appeared that one of his companions abandoned another one to die, and a neutral good character willingly took his side in an dispute with a lawful good character up to the point of potential combat.

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    Default Re: No love for Neutral alignments in OOTS

    Quote Originally Posted by Amphiox View Post
    I simply do not understand why people continue to automatically assume that the child theft practices of the Draketooth Clan should be laid at Girard's door, alignment wise.

    We have zero evidence, zero, that Girard himself had anything at all to do with it.

    What we do know about Girard himself, is that he went on an epic adventure to protect the universe with companions, four of which were good, a paladin associated with him for years without falling, he dedicated his entire life to the protection of a Gate, he was suspicious of authority to the point of setting lethal traps intended to be triggered by paladins, a chaotic good companion was at the least infatuated with him, and continued to associate with him for many years, he was deeply, deeply upset when it appeared that one of his companions abandoned another one to die, and a neutral good character willingly took his side in an dispute with a lawful good character up to the point of potential combat.
    Wait, we now know the alignment of Serini? And didn't the conflict strip suggest that Soon started to throw down with Dorukan first, and Girard piped in after because he hated Soon?

  11. - Top - End - #131
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    Default Re: No love for Neutral alignments in OOTS

    We do not know the alignment of Serini. Or Kraagor.

  12. - Top - End - #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by sengmeng View Post
    As for how is Girard lawful... I'm not sure. His system was well-organized, his family well disciplined, and his plans intricate, but that's hardly definitive. I don't know.
    In my book, Law and Chaos aren't about complexity, they're about formality.

    A Chaotic could invent absolutely brilliant plans as long as they revolve around what actually works, rather than simply about who's making them, and would always be willing to consider new information at any time from the people he trusts to know what they're talking about. On the other hand, a Lawful could be completely unwilling to come up with his own plan because he feels that it's his boss's job to make the plans for him.

    842: You'll notice that the schedule of who does what spells on what day only covers one week, so I imagine that there were frequent evaluations about whether anybody had come up with new ideas instead of just blindly repeating last month's schedules.
    A game is a fictional construct created for the sake of the players, not the other way around. If you have a question "How do I keep X from happening at my table," and you feel that the out-of-game answer "Talk the the other people at your table" won't help, then the in-game answers "Remove mechanics A, B, and/or C, impose mechanics L, M, and/or N" will not help either.

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  13. - Top - End - #133
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    Default Re: No love for Neutral alignments in OOTS

    Quote Originally Posted by Reddish Mage View Post
    I thought as much, in fact I was writing up an argument to this effect. As I see it there are four types of Neutral alignment:

    1. Lack of Moral Capacity
    This refers to animals and other creatures that totally lack the capacity for moral behavior. The example from the SRD is vipers and tigers.


    2. Philosophical Neutrality "Balance" Types
    Someone who really believes in a balance of good and evil.

    3. Lack of Sacrifice "Indifferent" Types
    This is the plain vanilla neutral the SRD seems to be shooting for as the common sort of neutral. In terms of good vs. evil this sort of Neutral person has "compunctions against killing the innocent but lack the commitment to make sacrifices to protect or help others." The SRD claims that most neutral people prefer good to evil and law to chaos.


    4. Mercenary Type

    This is the type who would join with either good or evil depending on who is providing them with the incentives.


    I see the 4th type as basically a selfish, look out for #1, type who otherwise have very little opinion about morality but is not a malicious being. Enor and Gannji exemplify this sort of notion, appearing on the Ookoodook T-shrit with "Neutral, you are not being paid enough."

    The interesting part of this notion is that it is nowhere described in the SRD but is notably in Palladium's RPGs which has "Selfish" occupying the "neutral" within their alignment system. The plain description of neutral evil marks selfish people as Neutral evil.

    I would imagine, that in this conception of alignment, a real Neutral-Evil type character would join with the good guys to advance himself but would be on the look out to betray them at first opportunity possibly at the his own accord. The mercenary types will remain reasonably loyal.

    Edit: That "plain description of Neutral evil" requires explanation

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    From SRD: The only element in the text, aside from the word "villain" popping out, that go against a plain mercenary type being Neutral include the "Sheds no tears," which requires an extreme degree of indifference towards suffering.

    There's nothing that actually says that EVIL or "villain" types have a certain internal drive towards evil, but it can be read as implied in the tone of the SRD. In OOTS, a certain enthusiasm for evil seems to be required, because we see quite a few neutral types (Right-eye, Therkla, the Oracle) that join with evil beings but simply have no great love for actually committing these actions. The trio I mentioned are all alike in craving a certain normalcy and a sense of belonging.
    Minor quibble, I'm not seeing much of a difference between your Indifferent and Mercenary types. Or, more specifically, Mercenary just seems to be a specific kind of Indifferent, as in "I'm indifferent your morals and your ideology. How much are you paying me to do this on your behalf?"

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    It sounds like a matter of passively doing not much of anything vs. actively doing a lot of everything
    A game is a fictional construct created for the sake of the players, not the other way around. If you have a question "How do I keep X from happening at my table," and you feel that the out-of-game answer "Talk the the other people at your table" won't help, then the in-game answers "Remove mechanics A, B, and/or C, impose mechanics L, M, and/or N" will not help either.

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    Default Re: No love for Neutral alignments in OOTS

    Quote Originally Posted by Emanick View Post
    I think the argument is that there are few things more evil than killing innocent people. In general, unless there are significant extenuating circumstances (and I can't think of any), if you're killing innocent people willfully, without being coerced to do so, on a regular basis, and are somehow not Evil under an alignment system, then that alignment system is broken. If that's not Evil, what is?
    True enough, although from a storyteller's point of view, the caveats "innocent" and "coerced" in your statement leave a lot of room to play around. If Therkla was non-evil throughout her seven years of working under Kubota, then it was doubtless because of the interpretation of one of these two words.

    (To explain the "coerced" one more carefully: this could apply if she was brainwashed into being obedient to Kubota, or if she was brainwashed into believing in an honor system that made her uphold an oath of loyalty to Kubota. These are hypothetical examples -- I don't think either of them was actually the case. But it explains why I think, for example, that Szeth in The Way of Kings should be considered Neutral.)

    Mind you, I'm perfectly willing to believe that Therkla was Evil throughout most of the seven years -- although not a particularly malevolent Evil -- and that she only shifted to Neutral near the end, once she started letting Elan's example influence her behavior. In fact, I think this is quite likely -- but her being Neutral all along isn't impossible. And the reason why is based on the other caveat word, "innocent":

    Quote Originally Posted by bguy View Post
    (Now maybe Kubota only had her targetting rival evil aristocrats and crime bosses and the like and never had her target any innocent people, though given what we know of the man that seems unlikely.)
    ... I don't have a hard time believing that at all. Shojo paints the Azure nobility as a hive of reprehensible, slimy, backstabbing (literally) politicians. And the people in that community that Kubota was most likely to want killed off are the ones who were at the top of the power structure, or those who were most ruthless (and therefore likely to get him killed off). And Shojo's senility act shut down the first category. So I imagine most of the targets Therkla killed over the years weren't "innocent" by any stretch of the imagination.
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    Default Re: No love for Neutral alignments in OOTS

    Quote Originally Posted by Amphiox View Post
    I simply do not understand why people continue to automatically assume that the child theft practices of the Draketooth Clan should be laid at Girard's door, alignment wise.

    We have zero evidence, zero, that Girard himself had anything at all to do with it.

    What we do know about Girard himself, is that he went on an epic adventure to protect the universe with companions, four of which were good, a paladin associated with him for years without falling, he dedicated his entire life to the protection of a Gate, he was suspicious of authority to the point of setting lethal traps intended to be triggered by paladins, a chaotic good companion was at the least infatuated with him, and continued to associate with him for many years, he was deeply, deeply upset when it appeared that one of his companions abandoned another one to die, and a neutral good character willingly took his side in an dispute with a lawful good character up to the point of potential combat.
    This. We can take out the part of Girard's allies alignments and it's still a very good point for Girard to be CG.

    The problem here is that the dogmatic paladin fan-boys think that going against paladins is being not-good. Just as Miko thought: "with me, or against me". Very paladin-ish.
    Rich has put some effort on narrating how you can be good and still fight against the fundamentalist paladins... żremember Roy beating Miko BEFORE she fell?
    Last edited by Blas_de_Lezo; 2013-07-22 at 08:15 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blas_de_Lezo View Post
    This. We can take out the part of Girard's allies alignments and it's still a very good point for Girard to be CG.

    The problem here is that the dogmatic paladin fan-boys think that going against paladins is being not-good. Just as Miko thought: "with me, or against me". Very paladin-ish.
    Rich has put some effort on narrating how you can be good and still fight against the fundamentalist paladins... żremember Roy beating Miko BEFORE she fell?
    I think it's a little less "dogmatic paladin fan-boys" and more "paladins can detect evil at will, so Girard couldn't have been out and out evil without Soon pulling out his Ginsu Katanamatic 2000 and turning him into Draketooth puree."
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    Default Re: No love for Neutral alignments in OOTS

    Therkla's past actions and initial appearance are definitely Evil. Even she knows it, dodging the Detect Evil Lien used. Her rather strong crush on Elan has a good influence on her. She shows compunction against killing innocents, acts to rescue Kazumi and Daigo, and articulates a definite Neutral moral position in the final confrontation with Kubota. Love story of the century it ain't, but it is a classic redemptive arc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grey Watcher View Post
    Minor quibble, I'm not seeing much of a difference between your Indifferent and Mercenary types. Or, more specifically, Mercenary just seems to be a specific kind of Indifferent, as in "I'm indifferent your morals and your ideology. How much are you paying me to do this on your behalf?"
    Mercenary differs in that it is fundamentally selfish, where as my indifferent types could better be called "Good-lite." I don't believe this "selfish" works for OOTS in light of having sometime to think about it.

    I'm pretty sure that we can class Rich's use of the Neutral alignment in OOTS as "Indifferent" and that the word "selfish" doesn't need to come up.

    Its a stronger form of indifferent then I had. The neutral aligned in OOTS do not show a preference for associating with Good over Evil, or if they do, it is a mild preference, one that is easily overcome by circumstance.

    This is my current attempt at fleshing out Neutrality from our discussion:

    Neutral aligned respond to incentives and form relationships that are more important to them than morality. They lack the drive to commit evil and will do so only when given a strong enough incentive, whether in the form of a good job (Kilkil), or a looser organizational arrangement (Hank, Jenny), money (Enor and Gannji), a sense of belonging (Therkla), or family (Right-eye, and perhaps Therkla). Similarly, Neutral people are unlikely to go out of their way to commit good acts, if such acts require a great deal of sacrifice for strangers.
    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
    It would have been awesome if the writers had put as much thought into it as you guys do.
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    Default Re: No love for Neutral alignments in OOTS

    Quote Originally Posted by Blas_de_Lezo View Post
    This. We can take out the part of Girard's allies alignments and it's still a very good point for Girard to be CG.

    The problem here is that the dogmatic paladin fan-boys think that going against paladins is being not-good. Just as Miko thought: "with me, or against me". Very paladin-ish.
    Rich has put some effort on narrating how you can be good and still fight against the fundamentalist paladins... żremember Roy beating Miko BEFORE she fell?
    Roy never actually defeated Miko before she fell. The first fight ended in a stalemate, which evolved into a truce. The second fight ended with Miko and Windstriker soundly kicking the Order of the Stick to the curb and hauling five/sixths of them in chains to Azure City.

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    Default Re: No love for Neutral alignments in OOTS

    Quote Originally Posted by sengmeng View Post
    I think it's a little less "dogmatic paladin fan-boys" and more "paladins can detect evil at will, so Girard couldn't have been out and out evil without Soon pulling out his Ginsu Katanamatic 2000 and turning him into Draketooth puree."
    Plus Paladins are not allowed to associate themselves (i.e. be in the same adventuring party) with anyone of Evil Alignment without violating the Paladin code. Soon might not have attacked Girard on sight, but Soon would have refused to accompany Girard on adventures, possibly leaving the Order of the Scribble before the day was out.

  22. - Top - End - #142
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    Default Re: No love for Neutral alignments in OOTS

    Quote Originally Posted by Math_Mage View Post
    Therkla's past actions and initial appearance are definitely Evil. Even she knows it, dodging the Detect Evil Lien used. Her rather strong crush on Elan has a good influence on her. She shows compunction against killing innocents, acts to rescue Kazumi and Daigo, and articulates a definite Neutral moral position in the final confrontation with Kubota. Love story of the century it ain't, but it is a classic redemptive arc.
    ITs a great narrative, except for the part but the point is weakened in that you just say "her past actions" and "initial appearance" is definitely evil (without the in-comic support). She does dodge the detect evil, which suggests maybe Therkla doesn't know what her own alignment is.

    The insistence that Therkla is evil or that Girard is neutral or evil is based on taking certain acts very gravely. This is against the grain of everything the Giant said about how he interprets alignment.

    There is no evidence that the Giant ever viewed Evil alignment as that clear-cut (you do X, therefore, YOU ARE NOW EVIL!). I it is possible Rich sees an Evil alignment (for the OOTS story) as more about having an internal disposition towards evil, something that can develop as a character commits evil acts, but doesn't necessarily develop even if the character commits some evil actions.
    Last edited by Reddish Mage; 2013-07-22 at 11:28 PM. Reason: Made it a bit humbler if I'm going to divine the word of the author
    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
    It would have been awesome if the writers had put as much thought into it as you guys do.
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    Default Re: No love for Neutral alignments in OOTS

    Quote Originally Posted by Reddish Mage View Post
    As far as the Oracle is concerned. I was thinking about Mama Black Dragon and Tiamat herself, both of whom the Oracle gives a great deal of respect. Contrast this to the OOTS, whom the Oracle obviously dislikes (albeit with good reasons having nothing to do with alignment).
    Ok fair enough, but I think it is equally valid to interpret the respect shown to the two characters you mention as appropriate deference to the source of one's power, and appropriate deference to a very powerful creature, who is also a fellow 'reptillian'. It need not have anything to do with alignment. With the OotS, he is most antagonistic towards their one Evil member, so again I'm not sure we can draw conclusions about the Oracle's alignment from who he respects/is snarky to.

    The rest of the discussion on neutrality and Evil and the Draketooths is pretty interesting, but veering to close to morally justified for my tastes.
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  24. - Top - End - #144
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    Default Re: No love for Neutral alignments in OOTS

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    I don't think it is the only conception of Neutral, but it certainly is a valid conception of Neutral. And one that is easy to fit into a story like this, since the Neutral people who just want to be left alone are off being left alone, away from the action. And the "balance" types would represent a whole other angle that would clutter up the narrative and muddy the issue of whether the Good team was in the right or not.
    Might The Holey Brotherhood be "balance" type True Neutral?

  25. - Top - End - #145
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    Default Re: No love for Neutral alignments in OOTS

    I wrote a very long post defending Therkla's Neutrality, but I decided to delete it. It doesn't matter if anyone else agrees, and I doubt anyone will ever be convinced anyway. The characters in the comic are not meant to be examples or guides on what is or is not such-and-such alignment. As I've said before:

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    In the end, alignment is a murky cocktail of temperament, goals, actions, and results. There is no clearly defined formula for which of those counts the most. But self-image certainly matters
    So when I say, "This character has this alignment," just read it as, "This character was written with this point of view in mind, and if you could see their entire life rather than this small sliver, that would be more obvious."

    Also, let's keep the Moral Justification blades sheathed, and for that matter, make sure we don't insult groups of people with opposing viewpoints.
    Rich Burlew


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  26. - Top - End - #146
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    Default Re: No love for Neutral alignments in OOTS

    One character with a neutral outlook that I haven't noticed being mentioned: Nero.

    Though you could argue that Nero narratively is not a character, but that the character in question is more or less the IFCC, just as Donald Duck's nephews aren't really separate characters...But that's just me quibbling.

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    Default Re: No love for Neutral alignments in OOTS

    I like how people dispute the author's views on a character's alignment, despite the fact that we only ever saw a small sliver of her life.

    For all we know Therkla might have spent her off days rescuing orphans and puppies from burning buildings.

    What we do know is that Therkla chose Neutrality in the end.

    And really, that's all we need to know.
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    Default Re: No love for Neutral alignments in OOTS

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    Lawful Neutral: Mr. Jones, The CPPD, Kilkil.
    Chaotic Neutral: Julio Scoundrél, Jenny, Ian Starshine.
    True Neutral: Gannji, Enor, Julia Greenhilt, Vaarsuvius, Mr. Scruffy, Therkla, Right-eye, The Oracle, Hank.
    Neutral Evil: Tsukikko, Leeky Windstaff, Pompey, Zz'dtri, Bozzok, Crystal, Grubwiggler, the Snail.
    Neutral Good: Lirain, Dorkuan, Kazumi & Daigo.
    That's very interesting, thanks for posting that! I had suspected many of those, but some surprised me quite a bit. Mostly Ian Starshine, he struck me as he might be Chaotic Good. Perhaps he's trying to be Chaotic Good but his methods makes him slide into Chaotic Neutral?

  29. - Top - End - #149
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    Default Re: No love for Neutral alignments in OOTS

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    I wrote a very long post defending Therkla's Neutrality, but I decided to delete it. It doesn't matter if anyone else agrees, and I doubt anyone will ever be convinced anyway.
    While it is certainly true that it doesn't really matter that much if people agree about her alignment, I think that it's also true that many people would have enjoyed reading such a post. I can easily buy Therkla being Neutral, at least at the end, but it would have been interesting to see what you were to say about it.

  30. - Top - End - #150
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    Default Re: No love for Neutral alignments in OOTS

    Quote Originally Posted by Amphiox View Post
    I simply do not understand why people continue to automatically assume that the child theft practices of the Draketooth Clan should be laid at Girard's door, alignment wise.

    We have zero evidence, zero, that Girard himself had anything at all to do with it.
    The "Girard's family went rogue after he died" theory is certainly a better argument for it being possible for Girard to be nonevil than any of the "all the victims of the Draketooths' kidnapping scheme just had to suffer for the Greater Good" arguments.

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