OOTS #851 - The Discussion Thread

[Knaight]

Don't forget, Tarquin is pretty well flanked there. There's 24d6 sneak attack damage happening too. (How'd you get 1d10 for longbow arrows? I thought they were 1d8.)

The sneak attack damage isn't certain. For one, this particular battle has been very mobile and sneak attack's range is limited to all of thirty feet, for two sneak attack is pretty easy to bypass and Tarquin seems to have sunk a lot of resources into defense - though probably not enough if he keeps pulling reckless stunts like this one.

[Forikroder]

Don't forget, Tarquin is pretty well flanked there. There's 24d6 sneak attack damage happening too. (How'd you get 1d10 for longbow arrows? I thought they were 1d8.)

i dont think she gets a sneak attack with a long bow even with a flank since T knows shes there

[hobbitkniver]

I thought he wouldn't attack Elan because he cared for him. I guess we won't see if this is the case or not.

[Umberhulk]

Was Tarquin trying to avoid hurting his son, or was he genuinely too confused to attack?

I suppose it could be both.

I don't want to read 100-200 posts to see if its been said already, but Tarquin retaliated against everyone who attacked him (with spell or weapon), and Elan alone did not. It seems that every offensive action provoked an opportunity attack. Dunno if thats a published feat, but its pretty slick. That might be his best schtick, but I'd still hate to get full-attacked by him.

[Othniel Edden]

I think Tarquin would be the type to find a feat that prevents him from ever being considered flanked or flat footed.

[Forikroder]

I don't want to read 100-200 posts to see if its been said already, but Tarquin retaliated against everyone who attacked him (with spell or weapon), and Elan alone did not. It seems that every offensive action provoked an opportunity attack. Dunno if thats a published feat, but its pretty slick. That might be his best schtick, but I'd still hate to get full-attacked by him.

i dunno i could see him going for a dex con build and relying on superb defense and AoO to win more then Thog style fighting

[XanKrieger]

The sneak attack damage isn't certain. For one, this particular battle has been very mobile and sneak attack's range is limited to all of thirty feet, for two sneak attack is pretty easy to bypass and Tarquin seems to have sunk a lot of resources into defense - though probably not enough if he keeps pulling reckless stunts like this one.

I wonder if it is too much of an assumption that he has Improved Uncanny Dodge?

[Bulldog Psion]

ok, but here too (as for a rogue, no doubt), archery depends for effectiveness on stealth.
in general is archery weak w/out stealth?

if i wanted to build a high dex/high con tank archer who never hid or relied on stealth and just entered the battlefield or picked a visible high ground spot and blasted away with arrows, would that just suck?

just out of curiosity...

In my very limited experience of D&D, I always found melee to be pathetically weak, and missile-builds to turn characters into the equivalent of automatic 20mm cannons, shredding everything in a few seconds from hundreds of feet away.

It got so that, as DM, I gave up entirely on using creatures that relied on melee attacks and equipped EVERYONE in the world with missile weapons, because they were so ridiculously overpowered.

In effect, they became modern fighting forces with bows substituting for guns (though the rules make them about as lethal a high powered sniper rifles). That was the only way I could challenge the torrent of arrows that the party unleashed the second they saw the first signs of trouble, and kept up until the last of my spear-wielding mooks and sword-carrying plate-armored bad guys pitched to the ground in the distance resembling sea urchins from all the hundreds of arrows sticking out of them.

So no, in my experience anyway, don't worry about bows being underpowered in D&D.

[Forikroder]

In my very limited experience of D&D, I always found melee to be pathetically weak, and missile-builds to turn characters into the equivalent of automatic 20mm cannons, shredding everything in a few seconds from hundreds of feet away.

It got so that, as DM, I gave up entirely on using creatures that relied on melee attacks and equipped EVERYONE in the world with missile weapons, because they were so ridiculously overpowered.

In effect, they became modern fighting forces with bows substituting for guns (though the rules make them about as lethal a high powered sniper rifles). That was the only way I could challenge the torrent of arrows that the party unleashed the second they saw the first signs of trouble, and kept up until the last of my spear-wielding mooks and sword-carrying plate-armored bad guys pitched to the ground in the distance resembling sea urchins from all the hundreds of arrows sticking out of them.

So no, in my experience anyway, don't worry about bows being underpowered in D&D.

i always figured bows were next to useless since there damage didnt scale with the player so the higher the level the less relative damage you do as the opponents have higher DR/health pools

[Bulldog Psion]

i always figured bows were next to useless since there damage didnt scale with the player so the higher the level the less relative damage you do as the opponents have higher DR/health pools

That's quite possible -- my campaign petered out at about 5th level because I got tired of the party I was stuck with, but that's another story. So you're probably right -- at low levels, though, missile weapons are king.

[Fitzclowningham]

i dont think she gets a sneak attack with a long bow even with a flank since T knows shes there

I'm pretty sure Bozzock wouldn't have bothered with all of this if knowing where the attacker was negated sneak attacks. IIRC, all it requires is your that your target is flanked.

[Forikroder]

I'm pretty sure Bozzock wouldn't have bothered with all of this if knowing where the attacker was negated sneak attacks. AFAIK, all it requires is your that your target is flanked.

sneak attack with ranged weapons works differently i cant remember if you have to be in melee to get a sneak attack of a flank or if you need a melee weapon to get sneak attack off a flank

[Fitzclowningham]

sneak attack with ranged weapons works differently i cant remember if you have to be in melee to get a sneak attack of a flank or if you need a melee weapon to get sneak attack off a flank

Maybe you could look it up and post it. I did, and I didn't see it.

[EccentricFellow]

I suspect that Tarquin could probably take the Order without V, his current wounds are not likely to be that serious given his known enchantments.

It has been awhile since we actually saw the team involved in any action. Perhaps they are getting a bit on the rusty side with all that sitting around in town, sipping tea.

[Marlowe]

Haley had been shooting 2 (or more) arrows since forever, which practically proves she has Rapid Shot -- straight Rogue does not get a normal second iterative attack until 15th level.

Manyshot is highly plausible. But threes arrows could simply be a full iterative attack with Rapid Shot.

If we want to be rules niggling, she also in the past seemed to have some means of gaining Flank attacks or putting targets flatfooted. Presumably that is not the case here against Tarquin because three Sneak Attacks would be over 80 points of damage on average -- which should be enough for even Tarquin to wonder whether he has bitten off more than he can chew.

Yes, her bow is Icy Burst.

Rogues get 2nd interative attack at 8th level. 3rd at 15th. Haley has been rapid-shotting with 3 arrows since the comic started.

[Forikroder]

I suspect that Tarquin could probably take the Order without V, his current wounds are not likely to be that serious given his known enchantments.

It has been awhile since we actually saw the team involved in any action. Perhaps they are getting a bit on the rusty side with all that sitting around in town, sipping tea.

the only ones hes wounded was Roy, the damage done to Belkar is so nominal its not worth mentioning

"known enchantments"? glamer wont help him win the fight

[sims796]

i always figured bows were next to useless since there damage didnt scale with the player so the higher the level the less relative damage you do as the opponents have higher DR/health pools

Do DMs usually house rule in order to rectify this?

[thepsyker]

Maybe you could look it up and post it. I did, and I didn't see it.

That says "when the rogue flanks her target." Tarquin is most likely flanked, but not by Haley so she wouldn't get her sneak attack unless he was somehow loosing his dex bonus to AC.

edit: Also the flanking rules say "When making a melee attack" first thing.

[Forikroder]

That says "when the rogue flanks her target." Tarquin is most likely flanked, but not by Haley so she wouldn't get her sneak attack unless he was somehow loosing his dex bonus to AC.

edit: Also the flanking rules say "When making a melee attack" first thing.

as long as two charater form a straight line through a target the target is being flanked and the two characters are flanking it

judging by the direction of the arrows it most likely is a sneak attack unless shes 31+ feet away

Do DMs usually house rule in order to rectify this?

i wouldnt really know as much as i love the game i can never find a group to play with so i havent played it much but ive read the rules enough to understand them at least

[rewinn]

so all he has to do is turn tail and run like a little girl

Despite my titanic intellectual prowess, I am unable to discern the gender basis for this analysis.
Don't worry V; it's just an expression meaning "Ladies? Ignore me!"
Run like a girl? Yes I do ... the better to smite evil!

[rgrekejin]

as long as two charater form a straight line through a target the target is being flanked and the two characters are flanking it

judging by the direction of the arrows it most likely is a sneak attack unless shes 31+ feet away

No... what that means is that the rogue has to be one of the two people doing the flanking in order to get sneak attack. It doesn't matter if the target is flanked unless the rogue is one of the flankers. Tarquin is flanked, but Haley isn't one of the flankers, so no sneak attack for her.

[Peelee]

No... what that means is that the rogue has to be one of the two people doing the flanking in order to get sneak attack. It doesn't matter if the target is flanked unless the rogue is one of the flankers. Tarquin is flanked, but Haley isn't one of the flankers, so no sneak attack for her.

You're assuming that Tarquin is only flanked by Elan and one other person. There are two people to the left of Tarquin to set up a flank, so if Belkar is flanking with Elan, Roy could easily flank with Haley. It all depends on where she is, and if she was able to see Roy and Belkar coming (which, given her position, she most definitely would), she would simply have to move into position to get flanking bonus. I'm with Forikroder on this one.

[rgrekejin]

You're assuming that Tarquin is only flanked by Elan and one other person. There are two people to the left of Tarquin to set up a flank, so if Belkar is flanking with Elan, Roy could easily flank with Haley. It all depends on where she is, and if she was able to see Roy and Belkar coming (which, given her position, she most definitely would), she would simply have to move into position to get flanking bonus. I'm with Forikroder on this one.

Yeah... Haley is almost certainly not within five feet of Tarquin in any direction, which would be necessary for her to be flanking him. Not only is she not in the shot with the rest of the people, indicating that she's farther away, but her arrows have diverged to such a point when they hit Tarquin that she would almost certainly have to be farther away than five feet when she shot them. And even if none of those things were true, it wouldn't matter, because you need to threaten the opponent's square to flank, and you can't threaten an adjacent square with a ranged weapon. So Haley, having her bow out, wouldn't flank Tarquin even if she were standing right next to him across from Roy. Heck, making a ranged attack provokes an attack of opportunity if you're adjacent to someone capable of making a melee attack, so if Haley were flanking him somehow, Tarquin would have gotten an attack of opportunity against her.

edit: Now that I think about it, Elan doesn't have a melee weapon out either. I don't think Tarquin is flanked at all in this scene.

[theNater]

If they stay where they are, they'll die. Time to retreat until they can find some way to equalize the odds. Assuming, of course, Roy's intelligence gets the better of his ego and he doesn't simply keep slugging away at Thog to prove himself the better man -- er, biped.

It's not just ego vs. intellect. Remember, Roy still thinks Vaarsuvius is out there, and possibly in trouble. Responsibility is going to get its vote, too.

[ti'esar]

the only ones hes wounded was Roy, the damage done to Belkar is so nominal its not worth mentioning

"known enchantments"? glamer wont help him win the fight

While I'm anything but a "Tarquin is omnipotent" person, I have to say that it's obvious the person you're responding to was referring to his Ring of Regeneration.

[Forikroder]

Despite my titanic intellectual prowess, I am unable to discern the gender basis for this analysis.
Don't worry V; it's just an expression meaning "Ladies? Ignore me!"
Run like a girl? Yes I do ... the better to smite evil!

so you use a rogue, someone who lacks a gender completely, and the paladin who as soon as the cards turned against her tried to run?

While I'm anything but a "Tarquin is omnipotent" person, I have to say that it's obvious the person you're responding to was referring to his Ring of Regeneration.

he couldnt possibly, ring of regeneration doesnt help you in combat unless that combat lasts for an hour or more (or you take non-lethal damage then its marginarly useful)

[Sweet_Goddess]

Tarquin/Not-Nale/Nale-Pop didn't attack first... here is how things went

Roy Charged, entering a threaten square, provoking an attack of oppurtunity (AoO 1), Tarquin used AoO to use Trip (most likely Improved Trip so he could make Roy use Dex instead of Str to counter it and not trigger a resulting counter AoO)
Haley Shot, Feat/Class Ability to catch arrows used (gloves didn't glow, so not arrow snatching gloves/gauntlets) as a Free Defensive Action
Belkar charged, entering a threaten square, provoking an attack of oppurtunity (AoO 2), Tarquin used the AoO to stab the caught arrow into Belkar.
Tarquin gets inititative, used Improved Grapple and Improved Grab to one handed grapple and throw Belkar via the arrow he had stabbed into him
Durkon cast a spell in melee range, provoking an attack of oppurtunity (AoO 3, BTW this is one of the manners AoOs can be provoked that is least capitalized on), used Improved Grapple and Improved Grab, and maybe Great Throw to send Durkon way out of the picture.
Now, since his attack action was used to Throw Belkar and empty his hand, Tarquin waited for Elan to provoke an attack of oppurtunity, which implies he still had at least one AoO left to potentially make if provoked...

Combat Reflexes gives additional attacks of oppurtunity (they each still have to be provoked individually, so he could't make multiple attacks on Roy for the one provoke) equal to his Dex Mod, which is in addition to the 1 you can make every round (if provoked). He made 3 AoO and was ready to make a 4th, which means he has a minimum dex of 16, but I'm figuring he may have an 18 or even a 20 in Dex. The wielding the Axe one handed and tossing Durkon one handed imply a very high strength, so that to I see as an 18+.

BTW, seems that Tarquin also has some ranks in the skill Profession: Dwarf Tossing...

[rgrekejin]

Roy Charged, entering a threaten square, provoking an attack of opportunity

Entering a threatened square does not provoke an attack of opportunity. Leaving one does. Roy left a square that Tarquin did not threaten (the one ten feet away from Tarquin) and entered one that he did (the one five feet away from Tarquin). This would not provoke an attack of opportunity. Same with Belkar.

[Aurabolt]

I agree. The OotSverse is charmingly lacking in real minmaxing and in reliance on obscure material. While we expect Tarquin to have a few neat tricks up his sleeve, it would detract from the character concept if his build were terribly exotic.

(Elan gets a pass because his character concept is built around being useless. So it is funny to have a weird reason for him to be startlingly effective once in a blue moon, as long as Elan stays Elan-like.)

Yeah, it does seem like that. But then again, in the Empire of Blood, there was talk of Warlocks and their Eldritch Blasts.

[ti'esar]

Yeah, it does seem like that. But then again, in the Empire of Blood, there was talk of Warlocks and their Eldritch Blasts.

A couple of random adventurers in a brawl having non-core classes doesn't really mean much about the potential of a major antagonist having one.