OOTS #1107 - The Discussion Thread

[Kantaki]

His logic is actually pretty solid, though: it goes like, "if the Romans didn't think it's fun to get beaten up, they wouldn't attack him".

Unfortunately his definition for attack pretty much amounts to „is there and cleary roman” so he pretty much beats them up the moment he notices them.

[Kish]

Maintaining an uninvited armed camp around someone's village is a hostile act. When Asterix and Obelix travel in greater Rome, Obelix doesn't attack every Roman he meets. And though there may well be some I'm forgetting, in every case I can think of, "retreat when Obelix approaches with apparent hostile intent" would have saved every Roman he's whomped.

Of course, that would probably have gotten them thrown in the circus for desertion, but that's on the Roman authorities, not Obelix.

[arimareiji]

Full stop here. Don't try to fit real civilizations into a fictional moral alignment charts. Just don't. This way lies madness. And There Probably Be Dragons as wells. mad dragons. they breathe madness.

Yup. Just about every last one of them would swear they're Lawful or Neutral Good, while anyone they've pushed around (or vice versa) would swear they're Chaotic or Lawful Evil.

That's kind of ironic considering how much the senate kept babbling about their precious "Liberty" during the First Centuries BC-AD. Or the first European civilization to state that everyone, even slaves had souls. Or make anyone born in their territory a citizen automatically.

You are technically correct. While that is the best kind of correct, it is also wrong. They conquered people, sure but they never tried to erase anybody's culture or claimed it was inferior to theirs. Those were not wars of conquest so much as perpetual preventive strikes that resulted in ever more territory that they protected by attacking preventively, rince and repeat.

This reminds me quite sharply: I wish a lot more people knew how similar the US has been to the Roman Republic (whether it continues to be or not).

Like you said, mad dragons await those who try to assign "good, bad, or ugly" to a civilization. I'm absolutely not trying to go there, just to describe historical parallels:
As civilizations go, Rome and the US are practically brothers. It wouldn't have greatly surprised the Founders, believe it or not... they modeled the Constitution in part on Rome's Twelve Tables, hoping to preserve government by the people as long as possible. And it may have worked by comparison to alternatives. But current events have been very reminiscent of Rome during the period where the Republic was approaching its deathbed (but "not quite dead yet", to echo Monty Python (^_~)).

You know one thing I have grown to appreciate in Asterix is that the authors did not go the lazy route of making the romans evil invaders (despite a few Nazi parallel in the first albums) but portrayed them as people and the territory they control just as happy as the Village.

Lazy, but human. Everyone wants to believe their actions are good, with the exception of some full-blown *-paths. And we're VERY good at finding rationalizations for our actions, even actions that others would describe as evil.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Maintaining an uninvited armed camp around someone's village is a hostile act.

No, it is establishing a country's land boundaries. The four camps exist precisely because Rome has given up on conquering that but, and it was standard practice in RL to establish regular guard posts along the borders (such as along the Rhine). Overkill for just one vilalge? If anything, evidence suggests 4 wasn't nearly enough troops.



GW

[Kantaki]

Maintaining an uninvited armed camp around someone's village is a hostile act. When Asterix and Obelix travel in greater Rome, Obelix doesn't attack every Roman he meets. And though there may well be some I'm forgetting, in every case I can think of, "retreat when Obelix approaches with apparent hostile intent" would have saved every Roman he's whomped.

Of course, that would probably have gotten them thrown in the circus for desertion, but that's on the Roman authorities, not Obelix.

From what I can recall there were several times someone (usually Asterix) had to actively hold back Obelix to prevent him from attacking romans.
(Okay, some of those might've been intimidation to get informations about the latest weirdness, but there's a reason it works.)

Also, running away? I think you're underestimating how fast the big guy can be.
And send to the Circus?
Why would they reward people for running away?

No, it is establishing a country's land boundaries. The four camps exist precisely because Rome has given up on conquering that but, and it was standard practice in RL to establish regular guard posts along the borders (such as along the Rhine). Overkill for just one vilalge? If anything, evidence suggests 4 wasn't nearly enough troops.

To be absolutely fair, short of sending enough troops to leave the remaining Empire severely undermanned I don't think there’s any chance for the Romans not to be outnubered by the village.

[hroþila]

I'm fine with not judging the past with modern eyes, but there's that and then there's whitewashing the Romans by saying they weren't imperialistic, that they didn't think of themselves as an inherently superior civilization or that they didn't routinely engage in wars of conquest. What sets them apart from most other ancient civilizations is their thoroughly modern view of casi belli and the fake news they'd try to sell to their own Roman Senate and People so that they'd buy into their innocent imperialistic narrative.

As for the Roman military camps around Asterix's village, they're a limes alright, but at no point did the Romans give up on conquering the village (they came up with new schemes to do just that all the time), and there were never any peace treaties. The Gauls in the village and the Romans were formally at war.

[Ruck]

I bet that as the result of the Divine WagerTM Dwarven Society insists that service to whatever group you belong to goes before personnal happiness, therefore if you can help your family/clan/tribe by marrying someone, ring the bels 'cause you're getting married.

Yes, I suspect this is the most useful framework for understanding Dwarven society.

[The_Weirdo]

Unfortunately his definition for attack pretty much amounts to „is there and cleary roman” so he pretty much beats them up the moment he notices them.

I, for one, don't blame him at all...

To be absolutely fair, short of sending enough troops to leave the remaining Empire severely undermanned I don't think there’s any chance for the Romans not to be outnubered by the village.

They managed to destroy the village, once, by means of siege weapons with burning projectiles (they did not kill the inhabitants, though). However, at that time, Asterix had "adopted" Caesar's son and it was an attempt by Marc Anthony or Brutus on the baby's life, which ended up with the Romans themselves rebuilding it and so on.

Which, of course, raises the question of what would happen had it not been for this deus ex machina - and, maybe, what would happen in a darker comic, especially assuming Getafix survived that attack to make some more of his magic potion.

Or, put another way, what happens when some 100-200 people (at the very least they are fairly numerous) that just lost everything BUT their main weapon (as in, the magic potion and, with it, super-strength not unlike, say, The Thing's, plus some very good running speed), people, in short, that are angry, numerous enough, powerful and with nothing to lose, decided to set their eyes on the people responsible for it...

[Kashem]

Had to join the forum to post this, but has anyone else noticed that Hilgya's holy symbol isn't shown after her reappearance, but her "Turn Undead" still comes from neck height, where Kudzu is? Is it possible for Kudzu to BE her holy symbol (not terribly familiar with the rules on that)? If not, could the sling be her holy symbol? Either of those would be reasons why she would HAVE to bring Kudzu into combat with her (though what she might have been thinking when making that decision is beyond me).
Otherwise, we end up discussing what happens when you hit babies with high level "Turn Undead" spells, and that's a traumatic road to go down. It makes me wonder about Kudzu saying "Tun un deh!" as if he were the conduit for the spell.

[Sir_Norbert]

Which, of course, raises the question of what would happen had it not been for this deus ex machina

It was set up from the very first page of the story.

[oonker]

Order of the Stick forum: the place where you find out that Panoramix's name in english is actually Getafix.

(I'm brazilian)

[Kish]

Otherwise, we end up discussing what happens when you hit babies with high level "Turn Undead" spells, and that's a traumatic road to go down.

Turn Undead is not a spell. The answer to the question "What happens when you hit living babies with the Turn Undead ability?" is, "Nothing, of course, since they're not undead."

[Kashem]

Had to join the forum to post this, but has anyone else noticed that Hilgya's holy symbol isn't shown after her reappearance, but her "Turn Undead" still comes from neck height, where Kudzu is? Is it possible for Kudzu to BE her holy symbol (not terribly familiar with the rules on that)? This would be a reason why she would HAVE to bring Kudzu into combat with her (though what she might have been thinking when making that decision is beyond me).

Alright, looked more into this, and I don't see any rules that say that a living being cannot be a holy symbol.
"To grant its benefit to a divine character, a holy symbol must represent the character's patron deity or one of a group of deities the character serves.”
"To use the symbol in this way, the caster must hold it in hand, wear it visibly, or bear it on a shield."

I could absolutely make an argument for Loki being represented as "The God of One Night Stands That Turn Out Badly." Kudzu was certainly being worn visibly. Another holy symbol was not visible.
Want to really kick a Thor worshiper where it hurts? Turn their child into a living conduit for the magic of Loki.

Thoughts from anyone who knows the rules better than I?

[The_Weirdo]

It was set up from the very first page of the story.

Okay, fair enough, calling it a desu ex machina was unwarranted. Still it raises the qiestion of what would happen had Caesar not offered it or, in short, had the Romans actually succeeded in destroying the village in an unrelated incident (as they clearly had the tech to) without, for that end, killing its inhabitants...

[georgie_leech]

Okay, fair enough, calling it a desu ex machina was unwarranted. Still it raises the qiestion of what would happen had Caesar not offered it or, in short, had the Romans actually succeeded in destroying the village in an unrelated incident (as they clearly had the tech to) without, for that end, killing its inhabitants...

Why not also ask the question of what would have happened if Roy had been a Wizard, or if they had hired the party members Durkon found, or if the gods of OotS hadn't squabbled enough to make the snarl?

[The_Weirdo]

Why not also ask the question of what would have happened if Roy had been a Wizard, or if they had hired the party members Durkon found, or if the gods of OotS hadn't squabbled enough to make the snarl?

Because you are.

[The MunchKING]

Turn Undead is not a spell. The answer to the question "What happens when you hit living babies with the Turn Undead ability?" is, "Nothing, of course, since they're not undead."

Actually they get blinded and probably find it very unpleasant on their poor baby eyes. :p

[KorvinStarmast]

Actually they get blinded and probably find it very unpleasant on their poor baby eyes. :p

Heh, that was a fun strip, but I just now noticed that Belkar was smiling in his sleep in the last panel.

[The_Weirdo]

Heh, that was a fun strip, but I just now noticed that Belkar was smiling in his sleep in the last panel.

That was Elan...

[brian 333]

Elan's default expression is a smile. V's is a frown. I don't think Belkar has a default expression unless it's boredom.

[arimareiji]

Okay, fair enough, calling it a desu ex machina was unwarranted.

https://youtu.be/60mLvBWOMb4?t=11s
(I really should have hunted down some anime girl named Makina for the best possible example, but ah well.)

(Had to drop the embed, but now it jumps to a good start point)

[The_Weirdo]

https://youtu.be/60mLvBWOMb4?t=11s
(I really should have hunted down some anime girl named Makina for the best possible example, but ah well.)

(Had to drop the embed, but now it jumps to a good start point)

Well, I was gonna go back there and change that typo after you pointed it out, but it would be bad form...

...desu.

[arimareiji]

Well, I was gonna go back there and change that typo after you pointed it out, but it would be bad form...

...desu.

Thank you for understanding desu - I was going to add a note admitting that it's desu not fair to pick on people for a typo desu, but I counted on you getting that I just couldn't resist.

Desu. (^_~)

[bunsen_h]

Adding to the old thread during a re-read... it's possible that "Kudzu" is a traditional Dwarvish name, perhaps a diminutive of something like "Kudzû-baruk". "What about it? It was my grandfather's name... the only guy in my family who understood me."

Though of course if it was traditional, Hilgya might be inclined to avoid it.

[CriticalFailure]

I think she went the plant route to rebel against tradition.

[Ruck]

Adding to the old thread during a re-read... it's possible that "Kudzu" is a traditional Dwarvish name, perhaps a diminutive of something like "Kudzû-baruk". "What about it? It was my grandfather's name... the only guy in my family who understood me."

Though of course if it was traditional, Hilgya might be inclined to avoid it.

Forum rules prohibit reviving threads that have been active for 45 days.

That said, wow, I can't believe it's been this long in real life since Hilgya came back into the story. Time flies when you're having fun?

[truemane]

Metamagic Mod: a reminder to everyone that the correct response to Thread Necromancy (or any violation of the forum rules, really) is to report the post, not respond to it.