LGBTAitp - Part Thirteen

[Heliomance]

I get that. I think when you're neither it's easier if you're female, because a female can get away with being masculine more easily than the other way around. So if you're female you can be in the middle, or even have some times being very feminine and some others being very masculine, and you'll be fine (I'm speaking mostly of appearance here. Like, a woman can wear a dress and make up one day, and jeans and a T-shirt the next. Much harder for a guy).

On the other hand, sometimes I feel I'd be taken more seriously as a male, and there are many things I dislike about a female body, and I think it might be easier to be a male who shaves his body hair than a female who doesn't...

So yeah, both have pros and cons I guess. Either way, I'm comfortable with my body now, I feel like, I'm going to have one anyways, you know, so since I don't really fit anything, might as well take the one I have.

I don't think I'd mind so much about the not being taken quite so seriously. I envy women for their freedom to wear pretty clothes, express emotion, be huggy...

OTOH, shaving legs is a gigantic pain in the backside. So much effort.

[Coidzor]

I don't think I'd mind so much about the not being taken quite so seriously. I envy women for their freedom to wear pretty clothes, express emotion, be huggy...

Well, 1 is all on your personal definition of pretty and 2&3 are more about where you live geographically, culturally, and in terms of social status and peerage than your sex or gender.

[golentan]

I don't think I'd mind so much about the not being taken quite so seriously. I envy women for their freedom to wear pretty clothes, express emotion, be huggy...

OTOH, shaving legs is a gigantic pain in the backside. So much effort.

Having worn pretty clothes, openly wept or cheered at "girly" things, and gone around hugging everyone who doesn't use the words "order" and "restraining" whenever possible... I don't see the connection to femininity.

Admittedly, I used to take a lot more flak for it. But I think by this point most people have begun to view me as a force of nature. Nosce te ipsum: when you know your own limits there's very little that can limit you.

[Heliomance]

Haha, I would however imagine that the number of people throwing around the words "order" and "restraining" would be lower were you actually female.

[Serpentine]

Repeat any experience often enough and it becomes banal.
Now, I'm not saying "go ahead and hug people who don't want to be hugged", because that actually could warrant some censuring, but if you wanna be pretty, be pretty. People will get over it eventually, or they'll leave.

[Coidzor]

Heliomance: Depends on who was involved and how hot femme-tan would be, really. And I don't even want to get into isolating variables.

Be the person who you want to be and you'll find at least one of the places for yourself, after all.

If my first bit was "If you don't like where you are, move." Then this is more, "knowing yourself and living in accordance with this rather than denial will lead you to finding a niche."

[golentan]

Haha, I would however imagine that the number of people throwing around the words "order" and "restraining" would be lower were you actually female.

I honestly really doubt it. The cumulative total is currently 0.

And flippancy will not let you hide from my Eye of Truth! It sees all. Including that mole you think nobody knows about, which by the way is completely adorable.

You wish to disengage you're going to have to issue a successful parry and riposte.

[Lissou]

Yeah, ultimately it's about being who you are. You can't change the way other people perceive you or expect you to act when you meet them, but you can act in a way that's natural for you and they'll come to expect it.

This being said, it doesn't make it easy. You're constantly surrounded by strangers, and if you walk around being pretty in a way people expect women to be, not men, you'll get looks and comments and potentially get harassed. On the other hand, the more people do it, the more we can try to stop these stereotypes.

I sincerely believe that a lot of gender is cultural. Things that are expected from males or females aren't the same from one culture to the next. The good news is that culture can change, so we can change that and make it acceptable to have a greater range of variety among males, females, and people who are neither.

[Heliomance]

And flippancy will not let you hide from my Eye of Truth! It sees all. Including that mole you think nobody knows about, which by the way is completely adorable.

What, the one behind my knee? How can that be adorable, it's thoroughly inaccessible.

[golentan]

I was thinking the one on your back.

[KenderWizard]

Personally I identify a lot with the discussion Lissou and Heliomance were having about gender identity. Part of the reason I don't use a female sign on my profile is because I'm quite a masculine girl - I'm not intersex and I don't think of myself as trans but the tag I'd probably use is genderqueer. In some ways I'm pretty masculine/anti-feminine but in others I enjoy being a girl and am glad I was born one... It's kinda complicated.
(the deciding factor in not using the fem symbol in these forums is I hate the colour of it.

Woo! Preach it, sibling! I don't identify as genderqueer, but I'm otherwise similar.

I've been thinking about weddings the last couple of days (I found a pair of shoes online and decided I want them for my eventual wedding, they're here if anyone is interested, and then I was reading about a wedding, and then there's the royal wedding all over the news, my friend was just asked to be a bridesmaid... Weddings everywhere!). Anyway, weddings are soooo gendered. I'm talking about western weddings coming from the Christian tradition. The bride picks women, the groom picks men, all the traditional speeches are given by men. Even the kids are flowergirls and ringbearers. I've been trying to think of ways to ungender it without making people uncomfortable.

[Asta Kask]

Personally I identify a lot with the discussion Lissou and Heliomance were having about gender identity. Part of the reason I don't use a female sign on my profile is because I'm quite a masculine girl - I'm not intersex and I don't think of myself as trans but the tag I'd probably use is genderqueer. In some ways I'm pretty masculine/anti-feminine but in others I enjoy being a girl and am glad I was born one... It's kinda complicated.

[sleaze mode]You get that pretty face of yours over to Sweden and I'll really make you glad you're a girl...[/sleaze mode]

[Coidzor]

Personally I identify a lot with the discussion Lissou and Heliomance were having about gender identity. Part of the reason I don't use a female sign on my profile is because I'm quite a masculine girl - I'm not intersex and I don't think of myself as trans but the tag I'd probably use is genderqueer. In some ways I'm pretty masculine/anti-feminine but in others I enjoy being a girl and am glad I was born one... It's kinda complicated.
(the deciding factor in not using the fem symbol in these forums is I hate the colour of it.

Indeed, because it does definitely raise the question for us as to why you'd use the label genderqueer if you're ever glad you're female.

What, the one behind my knee? How can that be adorable, it's thoroughly inaccessible.

Why are you crushing that poor burrowing mammal behind your knee?!

Anyway, weddings are soooo gendered. I'm talking about western weddings coming from the Christian tradition. The bride picks women, the groom picks men, all the traditional speeches are given by men. Even the kids are flowergirls and ringbearers. I've been trying to think of ways to ungender it without making people uncomfortable.

The only way to ungender it, really, is to strip away all of those accoutrements. Though, I must admit, I'm kind of surprised you brought up ringbearers, since it's a gender neutral term and boys and girls are both ringbearers these days anyway... when they actually trust a small child enough to entrust it with expensive hunks of jewelry. ...And it's considered bad luck to raise too big of a stink about it anyway if you actually had a boy who wanted to do flowers... Though I think many people no longer have those because of the mess that has to be cleaned up afterwards.

Unless you live in an area that's somehow more conservative than the high society of the American South, I'm not seeing how the children could really be an issue in your neck of the woods. I mean, I socio-economically degraded a while ago so this isn't even recent experience with weddings.

And both men and women can officiate at a wedding and I've been to several where both men and women have said their piece before the wedding and after the wedding during the toasting.

But, really, the "traditional" wedding is entirely focused upon the idea of a formalized sexual and social relationship with the purpose of creating a new household and then a new generation of children in order to make a new family line. So of course it's going to be gendered strongly. If that bothers you, why not just have a non-traditional wedding?

Though there is the argument to be made that just doing what you want to do to it makes it so it wouldn't be a traditional wedding anyway.

[Eleanor_Rigby]

Woo! Preach it, sibling! I don't identify as genderqueer, but I'm otherwise similar.

I've been thinking about weddings the last couple of days (I found a pair of shoes online and decided I want them for my eventual wedding, they're here if anyone is interested, and then I was reading about a wedding, and then there's the royal wedding all over the news, my friend was just asked to be a bridesmaid... Weddings everywhere!). Anyway, weddings are soooo gendered. I'm talking about western weddings coming from the Christian tradition. The bride picks women, the groom picks men, all the traditional speeches are given by men. Even the kids are flowergirls and ringbearers. I've been trying to think of ways to ungender it without making people uncomfortable.

Mm. Tired of the Royal Wedding as I am (don't get me wrong, I'm genuinely glad that they seem to be happy as despite how wealthy they are they have their own problems too) it did give food for thought. I "came out" (as bi) to my mother for a second time when discussing what I liked about the wedding
ceremony and what I thought I might potentially like to do for a wedding ceremony of my own if I were to ever find somebody I liked enough to marry and that person was interested in having a wedding ceremony. She didn't comment again this time either.
The problem with my "coming out" is that I discuss hypothetical scenarios all the time when talking about myself and when talking about others. (E.g when we're discussing television romances I almost always chip in to point out that just because heterosexuality is the "norm" it doesn't mean we should assume every TV character will identify as such.) So I've no idea if my mum realised I was trying to out myself.
The first time I tried I actually just said, "Mum, I'm pretty sure I'm biromantic because I'm attracted to both male and female people but I'm terrified of intimacy. I'm not sure how I feel about this... do you have any opinions or advice?" and I still can't tell if she realised I was being serious.
I think part of the problem is that she knows I'm generally indecisive and probably thinks I'm just confused. Maybe I am. In my current situation I've no way of knowing. I won't be around my own generation much again until September.

As for the gender roles of weddings... yeah. I've spent an unreasonable length of time pondering those and inversions of them and the merits of such inversions too. Haven't come to any conclusions yet though. There are a few chick flick films and slightly more serious ones that touch on this subject too I think.

Back to the royal wedding, we had the tv on in the background for much of yesterday. When Elton John and his husband were on the screen my sis was asking if that was really Elton John as her main mental image of him is from when he appeared on the Muppet Show. So my mum said that it was him and the guy next to him was his partner. So I said, no Mum, that's his husband and then she told me that was silly because they couldn't both be husbands... she's not homophobic, or at least not in the sense that she wishes the LGBT+ community any harm, but she's also had very little exposure to anyone LGBT+ so... Yeah. Had to abandon the "discussion" in the end as it was going nowhere.

[sleaze mode]You get that pretty face of yours over to Sweden and I'll really make you glad you're a girl...[/sleaze mode]

reading that actually made me a little frightened, inspite of the sleaze mode tags.
I think the fact that I was getting ready to plan a trip to Sweden up until a few weeks ago only makes it worse.
(A friend from uni's on her year abroad there and gave me an open invitation to visit her but she'll be knee deep in exams now so it's too late to take her up on it).

Also, not to sound desperately attention seeking but you may wanna review the "that pretty face of yours" thing. I was picked on by about half the boys on my school bus because of my looks. Their nickname for me was "Caveman" because I have thin hair that I don't style, thick eyebrows, a broad forehead and my default "neutral expression" tends to be interpreted as a scowl. We also had a school uniform and I tended to wear the sweatshirts that were technically meant for the boys to wear. Girls weren't told off for wearing them but they were kept in the "boys" section of the catalogues.

Indeed, because it does definitely raise the question for us as to why you'd use the label genderqueer if you're ever glad you're female.

Well, my word choice was probably a little misleading:

Personally I identify a lot with the discussion Lissou and Heliomance were having about gender identity. Part of the reason I don't use a female sign on my profile is because I'm quite a masculine girl - I'm not intersex and I don't think of myself as trans but [B[the tag I'd probably use is genderqueer.[/B] In some ways I'm pretty masculine/anti-feminine but in others I enjoy being a girl and am glad I was born one... It's kinda complicated.

The short answer is: I essentially wouldn't use the label genderqueer. I can't think of a situation outside very specific discussions that I'd use it in real life, anyway.
Another thing I should have mentioned is I've not researched how this term is used. I'm assuming it's an actual existing term for people who struggle with their gender identity to a much greater extent than I do, but on a personal level I'd use the term to describe myself purely because I feel conflicted on the subject of my gender. I don't really feel comfortable going into specifics right now so I probably just plain shouldn't have mentioned it.

What I kind of take issue with though is the apparent implication that because I've come to accept my femininity it's in some way irresponsible or innapropriate for me to think of myself as genderqueer. It almost seems like saying that a guy can't identify as gay if he's ever thought Madonna was pretty...

[Coidzor]

What I kind of take issue with though is the apparent implication that because I've come to accept my femininity it's in some way irresponsible or innapropriate for me to think of myself as genderqueer. It almost seems like saying that a guy can't identify as gay if he's ever thought Madonna was pretty...

Well, no, but if he was ever actually legitimately sexually attracted to her, there's definitely the potential that it isn't the most apt label.

If you're fine being a woman it's definitely something that would be asked of you if you went with the genderqueer identity label as generally the ethos of genderqueer is that they're explicitly not fine with being either male or female.

Edit: Unless I've been grossly misinformed by the internet and this thread or just been grossly misreading what has been said.

[KenderWizard]

@Coidzer: I won't be keeping anything in the traditional wedding ceremony that I think is stupid, outdated, or especially, sexist, but I'm lucky that I'm in a position to think about and make that decision, with a supportive and open minded partner and family, who won't freak out if we, for example, choose two "best people" instead of a best man and a bridesmaid, or something. And I definitely understand why weddings are as gendered as they are, I'd just like them to be evolving faster than they are! Hopefully it'll be more in the public consciousness here with the advent of same-sex civil partnerships. I'm glad you seem to have experienced female-child ringbearers and flower boys. I haven't, but I haven't been to many weddings, so maybe they're more common than I think! Generally I was just thinking about it as a gender issue, rather than attempting to plan my own wedding (apart from the shoes bit, that was getting close to wedding planning!).

@Eleanor Rigby:
Boys calling names on a school bus aren't the best people to take your self-image from. They'd clearly rather focus on someone wearing a "boy's" jumper and come up with a nasty nickname than think about what it is about that person that's special and beautiful. I'm willing to bet you don't actually look like a caveman.

[Lissou]

Anyway, weddings are soooo gendered.

If I'm not mistaken, originally the maid of honor and best man were supposed to replace the bride and groom if they couldn't make it. And if THEY couldn't make it either, there was some sort of hierarchy among the others. Which is why it was all females on one side and all males on the other so all combinations would work.

Of course, at the time marriages were more about business than anything else...

In my wedding we kept none of these traditions, as neither of us is religious. We didn't have rings so no ringbearers, and we had one witness each, mine happened to be female and his male, but I had planned two witnesses to begin with, the other one was male and couldn't make it.

I also wore a vest and shorts and he wore a kilt, so we even "reverted" the dress code in a way.

I too have trouble labeling myself as genderqueer or agender. One the one hand, I feel it makes it harder to fit in if I use a "weird term", but mostly it's because I feel I'd be out of place calling myself that, too.
I don't struggle. I just don't understand what "gender" is all about. I don't feel I have one and don't recognise one in anyone. I feel like there are as many personalities as there are people, and which set of characteristics is supposed to make you male or female is beyond me.
So while I call people what they want to be called, I just feel generally out of touch with anyone who understands gender, whether they're trans or cis.
And it seems to me genderqueer people do get gender. Or care. Which I don't, and that's the important point. I'm used to people saying "she" about me, but if they decided to say "he", well, good for them. I like hanging out with males and I like hanging out with females, and I just can't think of anything in this whole issue that I give a damn about.

So it's a bit weird, and it seem hypocritical, to imagine making a stand and marking myself with a specific label when I just don't care about the whole thing.
Because I just feel like I'm miles away from the whole issue and can't even comprehend it, I just base my gender icon on my sex. I find it easiest, since cisgendered people are more common, and I don't want to have to explain how I feel like a man inside when it's not true (and if I say I'm female, I don't need to explain how I feel like a woman inside, which isn't true either, so I'll take the option where I have to lie less).

[rayne_dragon]

Woo! Preach it, sibling! I don't identify as genderqueer, but I'm otherwise similar.

I've been thinking about weddings the last couple of days (I found a pair of shoes online and decided I want them for my eventual wedding, they're here if anyone is interested, and then I was reading about a wedding, and then there's the royal wedding all over the news, my friend was just asked to be a bridesmaid... Weddings everywhere!). Anyway, weddings are soooo gendered. I'm talking about western weddings coming from the Christian tradition. The bride picks women, the groom picks men, all the traditional speeches are given by men. Even the kids are flowergirls and ringbearers. I've been trying to think of ways to ungender it without making people uncomfortable.

Nice shoes.

Personally, my "best man" is likely to be a women while I'm likely to include at least one male among my "bridesmaids." I'd rather pick the people who will be at the altar with me based on my preference for their presence than their gender.

If you're fine being a woman it's definitely something that would be asked of you if you went with the genderqueer identity label as generally the ethos of genderqueer is that they're explicitly not fine with being either male or female.

Edit: Unless I've been grossly misinformed by the internet and this thread or just been grossly misreading what has been said.

That would be the overall definition/understanding of the word, but I think in actual use there may be more laxity. At least one of the people I know who identifies as genderqueer is equally (if not more) accepting of being female. I'm not sure that other genderqueer individuals disapprove of people who use the term but actually do have a gender they're comfortable being, but it seems likely there is a degree of tolerance.

[Lix Lorn]

[sleaze mode]You get that pretty face of yours over to Sweden and I'll really make you glad you're a girl...[/sleaze mode]

What happened Asta? I thought we had something. A lovely dialogue of mostly joking teasing flirting. But now you've left me. I... I feel so alone and unflirted with...[/notseriousmelodrama]

[Mystic Muse]

What happened Asta? I thought we had something. A lovely dialogue of mostly joking teasing flirting. But now you've left me. I... I feel so alone and unflirted with...[/notseriousmelodrama]

Umm...Uh...Ummm....

What's up Doc?

....

Yeah, no, I suck at this.

[Partysan]

What happened Asta? I thought we had something. A lovely dialogue of mostly joking teasing flirting. But now you've left me. I... I feel so alone and unflirted with...[/notseriousmelodrama]

These monoromanticists nowadays...

[Coidzor]

@Coidzer: I won't be keeping anything in the traditional wedding ceremony that I think is stupid, outdated, or especially, sexist, but I'm lucky that I'm in a position to think about and make that decision, with a supportive and open minded partner and family, who won't freak out if we, for example, choose two "best people" instead of a best man and a bridesmaid, or something.

Great thing about the modern age, unless you really have hot competition from the other heirs, generally don't have to have exactly the wedding the old people want. Unless one were actually a member of high society where all of life is basically a highly ritualized dance, in which case one wouldn't care about the wedding for its own sake anyway.

And I doubt you'd be countenancing marrying someone who differed with you on this, or at least, the wedding would be off by the time those differences were aired so all's the smoother, really.

And I definitely understand why weddings are as gendered as they are, I'd just like them to be evolving faster than they are! Hopefully it'll be more in the public consciousness here with the advent of same-sex civil partnerships.

I think it's more people are just departing from the model of the traditional wedding more and more often rather than people modifying it, though you get into metaphysical territory in a sort of grey mucky, murky area depending upon how much one does.

These monoromanticists nowadays...

People only capable of one kind of romance?

People capable of only writing one kind of romance or producing one variety of romanticized art?

Edit: I really wonder, should I just make it spelled with an E for real?

That would be the overall definition/understanding of the word, but I think in actual use there may be more laxity. At least one of the people I know who identifies as genderqueer is equally (if not more) accepting of being female.

You didn't think to ask why they went with that if they were perfectly fine being a woman though?

[rayne_dragon]

You didn't think to ask why they went with that if they were perfectly fine being a woman though?

Not really, but she was explaining something else when she mentioned it to me, so she had already explained her reasons for it. Nor do I think I would have asked for one.

[golentan]

Also, not to put too fine a point on it but none of the people you're going after said they had a problem being female or male, just with being a man or woman. There is a difference.

[Coidzor]

Also, not to put too fine a point on it but none of the people you're going after said they had a problem being female or male, just with being a man or woman. There is a difference.

Fairly irrelevant since it was in the context of being ok with being female in terms of gender identity, and not in the context of specifically saying they weren't trans, or so I would've thought.

Otherwise, please explain.

Not really, but she was explaining something else when she mentioned it to me, so she had already explained her reasons for it. Nor do I think I would have asked for one.

Because you wouldn't be curious or because it's considered rude?

[rayne_dragon]

Because you wouldn't be curious or because it's considered rude?

More because I think identifying as genderqueer implies that in some way you feel discordant with the binary gender system, even if you do happen to feel comfortable identifying as one or both of the standard genders. I don't see that there's much to question there.

I do think the question is rather blunt as well, and could be considered rude depending on the circumstances and tone in which it was asked.

EDIT: I also think that basically having a composite gender identity myself, I don't actually find it odd for someone to be female-genderqueer or to consider themselves a member of multiple distinct genders.

[golentan]

Rayne's comment is the essence of my response. Genderqueerness is all about the social roles, and not about the sex involved or... I mean, I'd probably describe myself as genderqueer. I'm male. I like being male. And I like some of the social expectations of being "a man," but I really dislike others. There are times I'm really glad to be considered at first glance "a man," and I'm okay with being called that or with many of those social roles, but others I reject. Vehemently. So I'm not really happy being "a man," any more than I would be being "a woman," for similar reasons, but I am all over being male. It's amazing. I have a penis and everything, and it does all kinds of things which I find awesome, and I wouldn't voluntarily give it up unless I could trade back if I didn't like the replacement or if something more important was on the line. Like a friend, or a hand. I think I'd give up my penis to hang onto my hands. Probably not an ear though. Foot or nose, no way. Tongue yes. I like my tongue. It tastes things for me.

...Okay, enough with the discussion of my favorite external organs. Apologies.

When you were talking about genderqueer not being fine being male or female... that irked. Because I'm totally down with the maleness (though I would be with femaleness as well if I had it). But I'm not with being what most consider masculine, in large part. Whether or not you meant it that way, we once again are getting into a situation where gender and sex words have very specific differences of meaning in this context and you used the wrong one. Hence my interjection. I don't know when the waters in this particular one started muddying, but I demand clear and definite delineation of terms and your posts were those I saw that unambiguously seemed to fail that test for me.

[Rawhide]

Probably not an ear though.

Do you enjoy music? Give up just one ear and apparently you won't anymore. I just listened to a six part documentary on music and it stated that you need two ears to fully appreciate music, those who can only hear in one ear lose the ability to pick up on the most important nuances.

[golentan]

Given I enjoy music the way beethoven allegedly did (in my head and due to the patterning more than the physical sensations) I am not overly concerned. I'm fairly sure I would still enjoy music, even if something was lost in the listening. Arguably even if I went fully deaf, though that would make it difficult to add new fully orchestral songs to my repertoire.

I'm not saying I'd choose it given the option of not losing anything, just that if it comes down to it I think I'd rather keep my penis. I *doubt* that my current enemies would actually give me that as a choice (I'm fairly sure they'd just lop off everything if they started with anything), and I don't see myself making new enemies who'd be interested in torturing me while leaving me alive. But I've been caught by surprise before and I've rarely found thinking things out ahead of time makes matters worse.

Plus in the case of a split second decision or accident, having a prioritized list saves time and possibly more organs than would be lost otherwise.

[KenderWizard]

Nice shoes.

Personally, my "best man" is likely to be a women while I'm likely to include at least one male among my "bridesmaids." I'd rather pick the people who will be at the altar with me based on my preference for their presence than their gender.

Thanks!

That's a good way to describe it. Maybe we'll pick a mixed gender group of people together rather than pick separately.