The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait

[Peelee]

Star Wars is a huge brand name. It could be 2.5 hrs of a butt on screen, and it'd still sell amazing amounts, as people are going based of the name, trailer, and nostalgia.

That would have to be one helluva trailer.

[Tvtyrant]

That would have to be one helluva trailer.

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It can be done.

[Peelee]

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It can be done.

.....that is amazing. I would probably go see some Avengers movies if they kept that up.

[SavageWombat]

Fans generally hate it.

I think this may only be true for a certain, self-selecting "no true scotsman" set of fans. So far my (admittedly limited) subset of fandom all loved the heck out of it.

[Tvtyrant]

I think this may only be true for a certain, self-selecting "no true scotsman" set of fans. So far my (admittedly limited) subset of fandom all loved the heck out of it.

And all of my friends loved Batman vs Superman, that doesn't change the general reception or whether it is a bad movie.

[137beth]

And all of my friends loved Batman vs Superman, that doesn't change the general reception or whether it is a bad movie.

Except that in the case the actual fans who actually saw the movie loved it: Cinema Score found an average rating of "A" for The Last Jedi, the same rating that The Force Awakens got. That's a non-self-selected sample of people taken in the movie theater itself, ensuring the sample is taken only from people who actually saw it. People in this thread keep citing the "user" reviews on MC/RT. Those are self-selected samples, rendering them near-meaningless as a means of sampling the viewership.

Actually, RT/MC user reviews are even worse than normal self-selected samples, because they don't take their sample from people who saw the movie. Anyone can create a free account on Rotten Tomatoes or Metacritic, and leave a review for any movie, whether they have seen it or not. Anyone can then create multiple RT/MC accounts and leave multiple reviews for a movie they haven't seen. A bot could create thousands of fake accounts and leave negative reviews.

Over in the video game world, there are actual documented cases in which a large number of people who have never played a game leave negative "user" reviews on Metacritic. This phenomenon results in a large discrepency between the Steam user revers and the Metacritic user reviews. Steam reviews are also self-selected, but they at least manage to take their sample only from people who have actually purchased the game and played it for at least five minutes. Metacritic can't even manage that much.


CinemaScore is far from perfect. For one thing, it only samples from people who see a movie opening weekend, who tend to be the most enthusiastic about a movie. This creates a grade inflation where an "A" is good, an "A-" or "B+" is mediocre, and a solid "B" is bad. Looking at the example you give, Batman vs Superman got a B from CInemaScore, while Justice League got a B+. All three Nolan Batman movies got A ratings, as did the 1989 Batman. The worst in the Batman franchise was the 1997 Batman and Robin, with a C+.

However, despite its flaws, Cinema Score is the only non-self-selected sample of real audience members who actually saw the movie. It may not be perfect, but all the other measurements we have of audience opinion are outright horrible.

Most importantly, CinemaScore is the only measurement of audience opinion which has a strong correlation with box office multiplier, which is what Disney cares about. They got a strong opening weekend, and a high cinema score rating. That's a strong indication that the overall box office numbers will be really high, regardless of what a self-selected sample of social media and forum users think.

[Mastikator]

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In A Force Awakens the Falcon flies through the planetary shields of the (god awful) Starkiller Base by flying through the shields at light speed. In this movie they show that you can apocalyptcally ram something by hitting it at light speed. If you don't see the problem with those two facts and their implications for the movies fine, we can go on our merry way.

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In other news, I really liked the dreadnought scene and was a little irritated when Poe isn't given credit later on for it. If they had been running away and it was operational it would have killed them early on.

The shield of Star Killer base has a refresh rate that was exploited in a suicide mission to skip through it by warping through. Dropping out a nano-second too late and you're deep inside the crust, warp through a nano-second wrongly timed and you smear across the shield.

Doesn't invalidate anything about the Death Star blowing up Alderaan, nobody ever says that Alderaan has such a flawed planetary shielding. There's absolutely no evidence that warp technology could've been used to destroy Alderaan.


Edit- don't get me wrong about Star Killer base. It's stupid as all hell for many reasons, but this is not one of them.

[Tvtyrant]

Edit: My laziness has overcome my hatred and sense of outrage over this movie's treatment of my childhood. I won't be posting in this thread anymore.

[Peelee]

The shield of Star Killer base has a refresh rate that was exploited in a suicide mission to skip through it by warping through. Dropping out a nano-second too late and you're deep inside the crust, warp through a nano-second wrongly timed and you smear across the shield.

Doesn't invalidate anything about the Death Star blowing up Alderaan, nobody ever says that Alderaan has such a flawed planetary shielding. There's absolutely no evidence that warp technology could've been used to destroy Alderaan.


Edit- don't get me wrong about Star Killer base. It's stupid as all hell for many reasons, but this is not one of them.

As far as the movies go, the refresh rate is not noted as a flaw, but just how the shielding works. Similarly, Alderaan is not noted as having any shielding whatsoever.

[Scowling Dragon]

Here is a take on the movie from someone who thinks the blowtorch message is profound and necessary after JJ Abrams basically made a total retread.

But its not like they added anything new. The movie banks on nostalgia so hard that "Forget the past" is such a hollow jesture.

[Anonymouswizard]

Seems logical to me. The nu-Star Trek movies share nothing with Star Trek in the form of philosophy, motifs or pacing but made money so they kept up on them. Transformers are hated by everyone, but people still go see them.

Yeah, I was disappointed enough by Into Darkness that I didn't see whatever the latest one is (also the entire 'gay Sulu' thing, I'd have been much more comfortable with say a LGBT Chekhov). Since then I've watched a lot of TOS and some TNG, and I noticed what was missing from nu-Trek.

There's no spirit of adventure. There was always something new, a new world, a new problem, a new discovery. Maybe that disappears in DSN or something, but Star Trek began as an adventure in the stars, exploring new worlds, going where no man has gone before.

Star Wars is a huge brand name. It could be 2.5 hrs of a butt on screen, and it'd still sell amazing amounts, as people are going based of the name, trailer, and nostalgia.

After they've seen it, sure, they hate it, and rate it horribly, but...they've already spent the money.

This. The Extra Credits video on how a video game series can go downhill can also be applied to films.

So people liked The Force Awakens, because even if we thought it did nothing new it was at least still recognisably Star Wars. Sure, we picked it apart and complained about it ('Rey is a Mary Sue'), but I've met few people who wouldn't watch it again if offered (I nearly did, but I had coursework I needed to finish instead). We were then promised that The Last Jedi would be different, and draw less elements from Empire than TFA did from ANH (which was really the basic plot structure and some archetypes).

Then we got the adverts, and they looked like adverts for an awesome movie, promising a massive revelation that'll change the Star Wars universe for ever. So we bought the tickets.

Spoiler: I wanted this in the open but it kinda spoils the film

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What we got was a two hour space nonbattle, an attempt to burn the franchise to the ground so they can make a new version, and a half hour battle on a planet which, for all it's faults, was the only Star Wars section of this Star Wars movie. Any response we give in the 'we didn't like it' won't register to Disney because it was called Star Wars, and therefore we bought tickets.

Now if this film had been called Fall of the Resistance and been marketed as the beginning of a new Science Fantasy universe, I'd have probably enjoyed it quite a bit more. But it wasn't Fall of the Resistance, it was Star Wars, and therefore it's most important factor in what fans will think is 'is this Star Wars'.

Plus that massive revelation we were promised? Never comes. I was expecting something like 'the original Jedi texts say that Force users should never formally organise' or 'cutting yourself off from emotion can also be a path to the dark side', but we got 'the Jedi will continue', which is a nonrevelation. We'd called that from the point the title was revealed.

EDIT: note that there is nothing wrong with liking TLJ. It's just that to a lot of us, it's not Star Wars and feels like it's trying to be Star Wars.

Also, a Star Wars movie that is 2.5 hours of pure arse would be interesting. Can we get Finn facing away from the camera at all times?

[Talakeal]

That would have to be one helluva trailer.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_b3uc7tg2so

[Mastikator]

Justice League got a B+, Lego Batman got an A-, Batman V Superman got a B, Batman Forever got an A-, Star Trek Into Darkness A, Interstellar a B+.

So Cinemascore is actually incredibly bad as a metric for how good or popular a movie is, considering Batman Forevet is notorioualy awful, Star Trek into Darkness was panned while Interstellar was heralded.

I also find baseless accusations that negative reviews are coming from trolls hilarious in light of rotten tommatoes being used on this forum as an open indictment of DC works.

The Phantom Menace was heralded by critics and movie goers alike on the week of its opening. Hype can make bad movies good and good movies bad.

I absolutely agree that the people posting negative reviews are not trolls, they're disgruntled fans some of which got worked into the hype, some are wearing rose tinted glasses. The Last Jedi is by no means a perfect movie, it has issues with tone and pacing and certain scenes that aren't necessary and don't fit into the rest of the movie. Some bits are over too quickly and others feel like they drag.

It also suffers from spectacle creep, not as much as The Force Awakenes, but still it's there.

[Wookieetank]

Overall thought the movie was a lot of fun, lovely music by John Williams: Check, Lightsabers: check, Gratuitous Space battles: check, hijinks & adventure: check & check. Will most likely see again in theater even.

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Bits I particularly enjoyed
-Chewbacca and the Porgs were some of my favorite bits.
-"Rebel Scum" - There were cheers in my theater on this one, I may have been one of them (I can neither confirm nor deny said allegations ).
-Luke as a bitter fallen hero, yes please. Especially after Yoda and Obi-Wan were portrayed as ultimate paragons of virtue (at least in the OT). I like my characters with some depth.
-Yoda being his quirky self with Luke, priceless. Bout fell out of my chair honestly.
-Complete subversion of expectations with how Luke will effect things. Waterlogged X-wing just waiting to be raised and used for a Big Damn Hero Entrance, complete red herring. Which also made for a nice bit of foreshadowing of the Astral Projection bit, since Luke more often than not travels by X-wing, and is shown arriving departing in one when he does.
-Possible setup for a neutral/grey Jedi Order
-Snoke's throne room, the whole aesthetic of it was just spot on for me. It felt malevolent and inhospitable and just looked fantastic.
-Science implications aside, hyperspace projectile scene was fantastic. The dead silence afterwards and just knowing that the boom was coming and it was going to be loud had me all kinds of on edge.
-I use humor as a coping mechanism myself, so having the humor amid the serious bits fit for me, its something I do myself.

Bits I didn't
-Backstabby McHackerface somehow knowing about the cloaked ships and the FO instantly knowing where to look for them.
-The continued incompetence of the bad guys. All they had to do was properly blockade backup Rebel Base and the rebellion starves out.
-The juggling of the idiot ball. There was absolutely no reason to not clue in everyone when there were so few rebels left to start with. Especially when they were all on the same.damn.ship.
-The whole light and dark rising to match the other and the implications thereof. Leads into eternal conflict territory for the setting, making nothing seem like it matters much.
-The bombers weren't B-wings. Probably my biggest let down of the movie, I was like yes! they finally brought back B-wings, zoom out, why?!?
-The inconsistent science bits. Can't signal for help from the flagship, can get a hold of whoever wherever doing whatever in a shuttle craft.


Random thoughts
-I was under the assumption that the red guard were using vibro weapons (see Force pike), which are known for being able to go toe to toe with lightsabers. It's also why they weren't full on glowing laser swords.
-For Rey & Poe I feel like they did mix & match with Han and Luke for their character designs, with Poe getting the short end of the stick. Well acted, but I hated Poe the character.
-Ending felt a bit like a cosmic reset button, left me with a bit of here we go again, much like the ending of Dance with Dragons did.
-On the burning the past to the ground bit, much as it felt like the movie talking directly to the fans with that bit, it was presented by the bad guys as the right choice. When have the bad guys ever been right about what is the right choice?

I'm sure there's more, but I think I've novelized enough at this point.

[Peelee]

Overall thought the movie was a lot of fun, lovely music by John Williams: Check, Lightsabers: check, Gratuitous Space battles: check, hijinks & adventure: check & check. Will most likely see again in theater even.

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Bits I particularly enjoyed
-Snoke's throne room, the whole aesthetic of it was just spot on for me. It felt malevolent and inhospitable and just looked fantastic.

Bits I didn't
-Backstabby McHackerface somehow knowing about the cloaked ships and the FO instantly knowing where to look for them.

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I hated the aesthetic of Snoke's throne room. Star Wars has always been fantastic on set details. Then we have this huge homage to RotJ, and Snoke's throne room is.... red. Just flat red. There's a window thing off to the side, by the flat red. It looks like a low-budget B-movie "set." What the hell. It's so aesthetically boring.

Also, Backstabby McHackerface heard Poe tell Finn about the ships before he opened the door. Also, the ships weren't cloaked.

[Wookieetank]

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I hated the aesthetic of Snoke's throne room. Star Wars has always been fantastic on set details. Then we have this huge homage to RotJ, and Snoke's throne room is.... red. Just flat red. There's a window thing off to the side, by the flat red. It looks like a low-budget B-movie "set." What the hell. It's so aesthetically boring.

Also, Backstabby McHackerface heard Poe tell Finn about the ships before he opened the door. Also, the ships weren't cloaked.

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I liked it better than Palpatine's black on black with a healthy side of shadow throne room. Was nice to see an evil lair that had proper lighting and an actual color scheme.

Didn't catch that bit with Backstabby McHackerface, daughter had fallen asleep in my lap by that point, so was partially distracted in keeping her from falling to the floor XD

[Dr.Samurai]

I think this may only be true for a certain, self-selecting "no true scotsman" set of fans. So far my (admittedly limited) subset of fandom all loved the heck out of it.

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I don't think that's the case. It isn't for me anyways. I'm not being a purist about this, though I am making the claim that the character of Luke was mangled in this movie for the sake of story.

But that might be fine if we see why Luke thought killing his nephew might be necessary. We didn't see that. He just tells us he thought Ben was too far gone and he considered murdering him in cold blood. That's out of left field for *just about anyone* let lone a hero that redeemed arguably the greatest villain in cinematic history. So an explanation is needed to justify it.

That's about the only part where I think anyone lazy enough might accuse me of being a purist or a fanboy. Beyond that, the plot was awful. We're sitting there watching one ship chase another ship, ineffectually. For hours. Just two ships, in a franchise saturated with space warfare, slowly cruising forward, with both sides telling the audience "there's nothing more we can do, we can only move forward/keep chasing". It's contrived and boring and lazy.

The character development in this movie is bizarre. Poe is the guy you call when you need to meet Max Von Sydow and recover a super important piece of secret information. He's the guy you call to defend the rebels on Takodana, and the guy that leads the attack on Starkiller base, the super duper game-changer solar system destroying weapon of doom. Poe takes that thing down.

He also happens to be the guy with the stones to fly up to a Dreadnought and stall so that you can evacuate your planet, and also agree to use super space nitro to fly into the Dreadnought's personal space and destroy its cannons.

But this entire movie he is getting torn down for being brave and competent. What did you think Poe was going to do when it's revealed that your plan is to evacuate everyone on transport ships, in plain sight of the First Order? He says they'll be sitting ducks, and you just look at him and order him off the bridge. So the guy that takes action, the guy that is called upon to do the impossible, this is the guy you're keeping in the dark, and then you're surprised that he stages a mutiny and concocts an insane plan to evade the First Order's trackers?

The thing is, this could have been an interesting plot. The ship just moving forward is incredibly stupid and boring. But Poe having to stage a mutiny to make sure Finn's and Rose's plan goes off is interesting and exciting. No one is really wrong here. The admiral is not a hero (at the time) so she doesn't think like Poe. She's in a tough spot and trying to do her best in a situation that is totally screwed. Meanwhile, Poe thinks they can get out of an impossible situation if they can pull off an even more impossible stunt. That's how he sees things. He doesn't give up. He will try anything. Two different sides, neither one right or wrong, both fighting for the same thing, but against each other. That's interesting.

What they gave us instead is a contrived set-up where we're supposed to think Poe is reckless, even though the admiral gives us no indication that she has a *good* plan to deal with the fact that they are close to running out of fuel. Instead, it looks like she's lining them up to get slaughtered. For his heroics, he gets slapped, and he gets shot with a stun gun. At least with Leia and the dreadnought it was a little more in the air, since they evacuated early and she scrapped the plan last minute. Poe could have obeyed orders but instead, knowing the lethality of the dreadnought, he went through with the plan and the writers made it a pyrrhic victory. But even this should be a discussion about following orders, not heroics. If she hadn't abandoned the plan, Poe would still be flying into a dreadnought and dodging cannon fire and TIE fighters to pave the way for the bombers. He wasn't doing anything beyond what they already agreed on. He was just doing it even though he was told they were no longer going to.

It's just ****. You've got time and resources. Do it right. We've already seen Finn being accused of cowardice and desertion, but it gets rehashed in this movie. And Rose is accusing him of it even after they've infiltrated the capital ship to take down the trackers (I know where the escape pods are, Oh I bet you do!). Even if you're taking this as Finn's arc and he has to prove his heroism, this gets taken from his as well (just like Poe, just like Luke) when Rose intervenes and instead saves him.

Nothing really occurs in this movie. The First Order is tracking the rebels, and the rebels are in danger, and they get away at the end of the movie. And we introduced Luke, and he's an *******, and he dies. Remember how the entire plot of Force Awakens is that we have to complete this map so we can find Luke and bring him back because he is the key to beating the First Order? Well we found him and he stalled Kylo Ren before dying. The end. Did he train Rey? No. He was scared. Because he tried to kill a little boy once.

Sorry, nothing to like here.

[Renegade Paladin]

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This is one of the few things in your post I don't quite agree with. I ended up with the vague idea that he was already contracted by the FO to the tune of 'if anybody comes along and tries to use you to get on one of our ships use this to sneak onboard and then signal us'. Not said by the movie, but it feels like a reasonable explanation.

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No, he sold out the evacuation plan. General Hux explicitly said so.

[Blackhawk748]

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I don't think that's the case. It isn't for me anyways. I'm not being a purist about this, though I am making the claim that the character of Luke was mangled in this movie for the sake of story.

But that might be fine if we see why Luke thought killing his nephew might be necessary. We didn't see that. He just tells us he thought Ben was too far gone and he considered murdering him in cold blood. That's out of left field for *just about anyone* let lone a hero that redeemed arguably the greatest villain in cinematic history. So an explanation is needed to justify it.

That's about the only part where I think anyone lazy enough might accuse me of being a purist or a fanboy. Beyond that, the plot was awful. We're sitting there watching one ship chase another ship, ineffectually. For hours. Just two ships, in a franchise saturated with space warfare, slowly cruising forward, with both sides telling the audience "there's nothing more we can do, we can only move forward/keep chasing". It's contrived and boring and lazy.

The character development in this movie is bizarre. Poe is the guy you call when you need to meet Max Von Sydow and recover a super important piece of secret information. He's the guy you call to defend the rebels on Takodana, and the guy that leads the attack on Starkiller base, the super duper game-changer solar system destroying weapon of doom. Poe takes that thing down.

He also happens to be the guy with the stones to fly up to a Dreadnought and stall so that you can evacuate your planet, and also agree to use super space nitro to fly into the Dreadnought's personal space and destroy its cannons.

But this entire movie he is getting torn down for being brave and competent. What did you think Poe was going to do when it's revealed that your plan is to evacuate everyone on transport ships, in plain sight of the First Order? He says they'll be sitting ducks, and you just look at him and order him off the bridge. So the guy that takes action, the guy that is called upon to do the impossible, this is the guy you're keeping in the dark, and then you're surprised that he stages a mutiny and concocts an insane plan to evade the First Order's trackers?

The thing is, this could have been an interesting plot. The ship just moving forward is incredibly stupid and boring. But Poe having to stage a mutiny to make sure Finn's and Rose's plan goes off is interesting and exciting. No one is really wrong here. The admiral is not a hero (at the time) so she doesn't think like Poe. She's in a tough spot and trying to do her best in a situation that is totally screwed. Meanwhile, Poe thinks they can get out of an impossible situation if they can pull off an even more impossible stunt. That's how he sees things. He doesn't give up. He will try anything. Two different sides, neither one right or wrong, both fighting for the same thing, but against each other. That's interesting.

What they gave us instead is a contrived set-up where we're supposed to think Poe is reckless, even though the admiral gives us no indication that she has a *good* plan to deal with the fact that they are close to running out of fuel. Instead, it looks like she's lining them up to get slaughtered. For his heroics, he gets slapped, and he gets shot with a stun gun. At least with Leia and the dreadnought it was a little more in the air, since they evacuated early and she scrapped the plan last minute. Poe could have obeyed orders but instead, knowing the lethality of the dreadnought, he went through with the plan and the writers made it a pyrrhic victory. But even this should be a discussion about following orders, not heroics. If she hadn't abandoned the plan, Poe would still be flying into a dreadnought and dodging cannon fire and TIE fighters to pave the way for the bombers. He wasn't doing anything beyond what they already agreed on. He was just doing it even though he was told they were no longer going to.

It's just ****. You've got time and resources. Do it right. We've already seen Finn being accused of cowardice and desertion, but it gets rehashed in this movie. And Rose is accusing him of it even after they've infiltrated the capital ship to take down the trackers (I know where the escape pods are, Oh I bet you do!). Even if you're taking this as Finn's arc and he has to prove his heroism, this gets taken from his as well (just like Poe, just like Luke) when Rose intervenes and instead saves him.

Nothing really occurs in this movie. The First Order is tracking the rebels, and the rebels are in danger, and they get away at the end of the movie. And we introduced Luke, and he's an *******, and he dies. Remember how the entire plot of Force Awakens is that we have to complete this map so we can find Luke and bring him back because he is the key to beating the First Order? Well we found him and he stalled Kylo Ren before dying. The end. Did he train Rey? No. He was scared. Because he tried to kill a little boy once.

Sorry, nothing to like here.

All of this. It's not even good as a movie as far as I'm concerned. Cuz after thinking about it today I retract my C- and give it a D. It's not good and it makes me not want to see the sequel

[Sapphire Guard]

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Where are they going to go with Episode 9? Ren and Hux don't have the skills or temperament to run the FO, and Ren's already been decisively defeated by Rey twice. There's no more NPCs to kill because they've all already been slaughtered.

[Wookieetank]

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Where are they going to go with Episode 9? Ren and Hux don't have the skills or temperament to run the FO, and Ren's already been decisively defeated by Rey twice. There's no more NPCs to kill because they've all already been slaughtered.

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Thrawn shows up to fill the power vaccum in the FO. Thrawn sends Kylo Ren to Korriban to properly train as a Sith. Rey, Finn and Poe restart the rebel alliance. Shenanigans, hijinks & epic climatic space battle ensue. Rey takes out Thrawn, Rebels win. Kylo shows up in the stinger at the head of a force of sith. What? A wookiee can dream

[Peelee]

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I liked it better than Palpatine's black on black with a healthy side of shadow throne room. Was nice to see an evil lair that had proper lighting and an actual color scheme.

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Here's the thing. This is even more subjective than other things people have brought up, so you are absolutely not wrong. It's your opinion, you can't be wrong. And I do agree with you that having a different color scheme was a nice touch. I was just wanting more detail than just the color. The Emperor's throne room was nowhere near practical; it had bottomless pits, catwalk railings with no visible way to get onto or off of them, computer terminals underneath the rostrum podium dais, circular terminals with no visible way to comfortably get into them, etc. But it wasn't flat. The black on black with a healthy side of shadow had a whole lot of detail, which made it seem more real.

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Ren's already been decisively defeated by Rey twice.

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Once.

ETA: Actually, not even that. They've stalemated twice. Certainly wouldn't call their battles decisive.

[zimmerwald1915]

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Ren and Hux don't have the skills or temperament to run the FO

Honestly, just put Domhnall Gleeson up against a green screen and have him alternate between ham and weenie for an hour and a half, and you have yourself a damn fine film

[Peelee]

Honestly, just put Domhnall Gleeson up against a green screen and have him alternate between ham and weenie for an hour and a half, and you have yourself a damn fine film

Prefacing this with "I am not a smart man."

The guy from About Time is General Hux?!?

[Wookieetank]

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Here's the thing. This is even more subjective than other things people have brought up, so you are absolutely not wrong. It's your opinion, you can't be wrong. And I do agree with you that having a different color scheme was a nice touch. I was just wanting more detail than just the color. The Emperor's throne room was nowhere near practical; it had bottomless pits, catwalk railings with no visible way to get onto or off of them, computer terminals underneath the rostrum podium dais, circular terminals with no visible way to comfortably get into them, etc. But it wasn't flat. The black on black with a healthy side of shadow had a whole lot of detail, which made it seem more real.

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Palpatine's throne room was more interesting furnishing wise I agree. I think part of that was that it was a makeshift throne room, what with the whole surprise overseeing of the last bits of construction for Death Star 2: Revenge of the Deathstar, and all that. Really all of Palpatine's "thrones" were re-purposed from something else (office chair, senate seat, leftover construction materials). Snoke's throne room felt like a real throne room for an evil bad dude, instead of here's where I hang out so it's my throne thing Palpatine had going on. I was actually surprised by how much Snoke's digs worked for me, with red being one of my least favorite colors.

[Blackhawk748]

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Thrawn shows up to fill the power vaccum in the FO. Thrawn sends Kylo Ren to Korriban to properly train as a Sith. Rey, Finn and Poe restart the rebel alliance. Shenanigans, hijinks & epic climatic space battle ensue. Rey takes out Thrawn, Rebels win. Kylo shows up in the stinger at the head of a force of sith. What? A wookiee can dream

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As long has his death is artistically done i could get behind this. Also can we please have Admiral Pellaeon show up and show Hux how a real commander does things?

[Dr.Samurai]

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Once.

ETA: Actually, not even that. They've stalemated twice. Certainly wouldn't call their battles decisive.

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That's being incredibly charitable to call the fight on Starkiller base a "stalemate". He didn't touch her even once. She hit him in the leg, the arm, physically overpowered him, disarmed him of his lightsaber, and strikes him a final time in the face. How is this a stalemate? Snoke even tells us in The Last Jedi that Rey defeated Kylo.

Now, in the Last Jedi, sure, they don't actually fight. But Rey marches onto his ship, confronts his boss, defies him, arguably gives Kylo the resolve to betray his master, then defies Kylo. She matches him in force power in the battle for the lightsaber, then recovers before he does and escapes his ship.

Both movies have done a terrible job of depicting Kylo Ren as a serious and credible threat to the good guys.

ETA: She even appears to save Kylo's life in the fight with the Guard when she tosses the lightsaber to Kylo as he struggles with the last remaining bad guy.

[Ronnoc]

Saw it and was conflicted on the film by itself and loathed it as a part of a trilogy

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For all that it dragged the plot a bit I liked everyone's character arcs with the partial exception of Luke's. I liked Luke's redemption and scene at the end but his flight in the first place and the causes thereof fly wildly counter to his story in the original trilogy. I almost would have preferred that they replaced him with Jorus C'boath or unmentioned Jedi survivor #437 rather than derailing Luke like that.

I enjoyed the space battles for all that they didn't make sense because I go into Star Wars films expecting World War 2 aircraft/naval battles IN SPACE, and they were visually appealing.

I loathed what this film did as part of a larger series, killing Snoke and leaving Kylo and Hux as the primary villains of the set leaves me completely un-invested in the series going forward. I just can't credit Kylo as an effective villain, petty and dangerous on a personal level, yes. Capable of running an interstellar war machine? Not so much.

[Peelee]

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That's being incredibly charitable to call the fight on Starkiller base a "stalemate". He didn't touch her even once. She hit him in the leg, the arm, physically overpowered him, disarmed him of his lightsaber, and strikes him a final time in the face. How is this a stalemate? Snoke even tells us in The Last Jedi that Rey defeated Kylo.

Now, in the Last Jedi, sure, they don't actually fight. But Rey marches onto his ship, confronts his boss, defies him, arguably gives Kylo the resolve to betray his master, then defies Kylo. She matches him in force power in the battle for the lightsaber, then recovers before he does and escapes his ship.

Both movies have done a terrible job of depicting Kylo Ren as a serious and credible threat to the good guys.

ETA: She even appears to save Kylo's life in the fight with the Guard when she tosses the lightsaber to Kylo as he struggles with the last remaining bad guy.

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In TFA, yes, she did all that while he was grievously wounded. I also suspect that his conflict over just killing Han played a small part into that as well. Regardless, you are absolutely correct in that they are not depicting Kylo Ren as a very good threat.

[thorgrim29]

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In TFA, yes, she did all that while he was grievously wounded. I also suspect that his conflict over just killing Han played a small part into that as well. Regardless, you are absolutely correct in that they are not depicting Kylo Ren as a very good threat.

Spoiler: That first fight between Rey and Kylo

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I seem to remember Snoke confirming that. Something to the effect of him being so distraught over killing Han that an untrained girl was able to beat him.