Class and Level Geekery II

[BardicLasher]

Empowered Owl's Wisdom would've given +6 instead of +4 right? ...Then again, V'd have said Empowered if it was.

[Wrecan]

Well, since Belkar admits to an ability score penalty, this trumps the earlier comic in which he is indicated as having a 10 Wisdom.

[cheesecake]

Psst... Words are verbal components; gestures are somatic.

I think that the Giant did post somewhere that in Stickworld, the verbal component for a spell is saying its name... Ah, yes, here we go (though strictly speaking, that just says that saying the name is a sufficient condition, not a necessary one). I've just been assuming that whenever we see a spell cast without being named, that the character mumbled or whispered it.

In this post Rich named V as a HE. "HE doesn't know the silent spell feat"

[Wrecan]

It's a generic pronoun. Rich has said many times that the use of a specific pronoun is not evidence of V's gender. Please let's not import the gender debate into this thread.

And I've given Belkar his ring of jumping back.

[Kreistor]

Empower only affects random elements in a spell, so it does nothing to Bull's Strength, which is a flat +4 instead of 3.0's 1D4+1, which it did work with.

Yes, the Giant has created an inconsistency, unfortunately.

[Kurald Galain]

Well, you do get an ability score decrease every fourth level, so Belkar obviously spent his on Wisdom.

...what?

Either that or the retraining rules.

[themunck]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0049.html
If Zz'dtri had a 3.0 version of haste, could V have a 3.0 version of OWls wisdom?

Just a thought...

[Porthos]

Empower only affects random elements in a spell, so it does nothing to Bull's Strength, which is a flat +4 instead of 3.0's 1D4+1, which it did work with.

Yes, the Giant has created an inconsistency, unfortunately.

Nahhh, Belkar's player (or more likely V's since it was his idea) just pulled a fast one on the DM (who didn't recall at the time that CSW is a 4th level spell for Rangers).

That answer always gets us out of these inconsistencies.

DM: So what does that make your Wisdom?
Belkar's Player: Errr.... 13.
DM (who doesn't feel like looking up the Ranger Spell List): Well, CSW is a 3rd level spell, so sure.

After all, how many DMs get to a point in their campaigns where Rangers are actually capable of casting 4th level spells?

[Felistor]

Yeah, as committed as I have been in the past to the 10 Wisdom position, this last comic should put an end to that debate once and for all.
Belkar (at least at this point), has a Wisdom penalty.

[Arteyu]

What if it was a 3rd edition ruled spell? I know Owls Wisdom did not exist back in 3.0 but, Cats Grace & Bulls Strength gave 1d4+1 back then.

So maybe the players thought spells like that should exist for every attribute, with the GM house ruling sure. Thus they have a house ruled spell that words 3.0 style.

So rolling 4+1 to get a 5....would be exactly enough to get him to 14, provided he does have a wisdom score of 9.

[Porthos]

What if it was a 3rd edition ruled spell? I know Owls Wisdom did not exist back in 3.0 but, Cats Grace & Bulls Strength gave 1d4+1 back then.

Actually, the spell was first introduced in Tome and Blood. So it was in 3.0. But you had to buy one of the booster packs splatbooks to get it.

Hmmmm. Maybe V's Owl's Wisdom is a Rare card scroll from said Booster Packs (as opposed to a "normal" Owl's Wisdom). After all, he'd better get something for all the gold he's plunked down on those things.

Hey, getting a Rare (or Ultra Rare) card variation of Owl's Wisdom makes as much sense as any other explanation.

[skinkatlarge]

I feel so warm and validated.

[Wrecan]

Based on the strip where he takes a new lute, I'm deleting from Elan all of the items I had previously assumed he took from Nale.

[Porthos]

The Belkar Wisdom Conundrum Solved? Apparently so.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showp...8&postcount=29

Cure Serious Wounds is a 3rd level spell, 375gp, when inscribed on scrolls. And let me quote:

some divine spells are different in level for clerics and druids than they are for paladins and rangers. Such spells appear at the level appropriate to a cleric or druid (considered the default because paladins and rangers typically don’t involve themselves in scribing scrolls).

There. So without modifying any rules, Belkar should have a wisdom of 9. Also, a wisdom score of 9 IS low. Sure, when you min-max a character, you could have ultra idiotic characters, but in OOTS, these characters tend to be more in-line with the RP. And nine is fine.

So, does his explanation past muster? Personally I think so. And I also happen to think, my friends, that is a pretty awesome example of Rules Lawyering.

Thanks for the pointer, meioziz.

[NOTE: Course, the real question I have is: How did all of us miss this solution? ]

[Wrecan]

This has been discussed ad nauseum.

When determining what Wisdom is needed to cast a scroll, you use the spell level as it appears on the reader's spell list (4 for Belkar) not the spell level on the scroll (3 for clerics), because scroll-reading uses the reader's spell list to determine if he can read the scroll (which is why rangers can read clerical spells at all).

Belkar needed a 14 Wisdom to read the scroll.

However, it is now clear that strip was just for humor purposes. It is trumped by the current strip in which Belkar claims to have a Wisdom penalty.

[Arteyu]

Just an update, Hilgya is at least a 7th level Cleric, as she cast Restoration.

Also as she referred to Loki as the god of Flames and Chaos, there is a good chance her second domain is Chaos. It would fit well with her being Chaotic not wanting to be part of Lawful Dwarven Society and all....so maybe shes Chaotic Neutral?

[Kurald Galain]

Theory:

are all Linear Guild members the opposite alignment of their OOTS counterpart?

Elan CG - Nale LE is obvious.
Haley CG - Sabine ??? I forget which alignment succubi get
Roy LG - Thog CE is fitting I suppose (although I've heard the case for thog being too stupid for any alignment)
Vaarsuvius CG? - Drizz'l LE is possible, but Pompey LE feels unlikely
Durkon LG - Hilgya CE ??? hm, doesn't feel right, but Leeky CE sounds fitting enough
Belkar CE - Yikyik LG ??? er, perhaps I didn't think this through, and Yokyok sounds maybe LE'ish?

[Morty]

Theory:

are all Linear Guild members the opposite alignment of their OOTS counterpart?
Elan CG - Nale LE is obvious.
Haley CG - Sabine ??? I forget which alignment succubi get

We don't know what type of outsider Sabine is.

Vaarsuvius CG? - Drizz'l LE is possible, but Pompey LE feels unlikely

Vaarsuvius is unlikely to be CG. I'd rather say True Neutral.

Durkon LG - Hilgya CE ??? hm, doesn't feel right, but Leeky CE sounds fitting enough

Hilgya may very well be CE, but Leeky is druid, so he can only be NE.

Belkar CE - Yikyik LG ??? er, perhaps I didn't think this through, and Yokyok sounds maybe LE'ish?

YikYik were obviously CE, but it's possible that his son were LG.

[Kurald Galain]

We don't know what type of outsider Sabine is.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0394.html Sounds like a succubus to me.

YikYik were obviously CE, but it's possible that his son were LG.

Why is Yikyik chaotic? He seems to be a stickler for the (aoo) rules

[Porthos]

Why is Yikyik chaotic? He seems to be a stickler for the (aoo) rules

Rich stated in Dungeon Crawlin' Fools that Yikyik is for all intents and purposes exactly the same as Belkar, but as a kobold. He figured that it would be funny that the thing that Belkar would most hate would be a kobold that was exactly like him.

[Chronos]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0394.html Sounds like a succubus to me.

The problem is that in addition to the CE demon succubus, D&D also has a LE devil seductress-type monster, the erinyes. Sabine's appearance and abilities seem to more closely match with succubus, but her behaviour seems to be more Lawful than Chaotic. So, either the alignment rules are relaxed and she's a Lawful Evil succubus (contrary to type), or she's a Chaotic Evil succubus, and we're misinterpreting her behaviour, or she's an erinyes with alignment true to her type, but with an unusual appearance, or she's some other type of fiend altogether, but somewhat similar to a succubus or erinyes.

[meioziz]

This has been discussed ad nauseum.

Ad nauseum, yes. But the fact remains that the CSW scroll is level 3, as you can see from my quote (directly from the SRD) in the other post.

When determining what Wisdom is needed to cast a scroll, you use the spell level as it appears on the reader's spell list (4 for Belkar) not the spell level on the scroll (3 for clerics), because scroll-reading uses the reader's spell list to determine if he can read the scroll (which is why rangers can read clerical spells at all).

This is wrong information. The requirement is that the scroll's spell be on the reader's class list as one of the 3 requirements. And let me quote the SRD:

The user must have the spell on his or her class list.

This is so that a Sorcerer or Wizard or Bards can cast spells that they haven't learned, but that a Wizard can't cast Good Hope, or that a Cleric can't cast Speak with Plants.

Belkar needed a 14 Wisdom to read the scroll.

However, it is now clear that strip was just for humor purposes. It is trumped by the current strip in which Belkar claims to have a Wisdom penalty.

The reason that the ability score requirement is 3 in this case, is simply because this spell was cast by a Cleric into the scroll. The scroll's spell IS a level 3 spell. Hence Belkar only needed to have 13 Wisdom to activate it.

No rule was bent, in this particular case.

Hope this clears things up for you guys.

[Sir_Norbert]

(@Chronos: intervening post appeared while I was writing)

Where are you getting the "seductress-type" idea from -- just that they "appear attractive to humans", or is there something else that I missed? Because erinyes from mythology are very far from being seductresses.

[Morty]

Sabine can also be some homebrewed LE outsider. Remember that there's a running gag based on not knowing if she's devil or demon. In fact, if she's a devil, she's almost certainly some homebrewed type, since erinyes aren't seductive.

[Chronos]

Where are you getting the "seductress-type" idea from -- just that they "appear attractive to humans", or is there something else that I missed?

The online SRD doesn't say so, but then, it omits a lot of the flavor text found in the books. The 3.0 Monster Manual specifies "Like their demonic counterparts, the succubi, erinyes seek to tempt mortals into depravity". Now, admittedly, that isn't explicitly sexual depravity, but it does say that they're "like succubi", and appearing attractive to humans would certainly facilitate sexual depravity. And this is very different from the traditional mythological conception of erinyes, but it's hardly the first time D&D has departed from traditional mythology (I mean, gorgons? Come on).

[Leeroy_Jenkins]

Ad nauseum, yes. But the fact remains that the CSW scroll is level 3, as you can see from my quote (directly from the SRD) in the other post.

What you are quoting from is the randomized scroll generator, not the rules on determining minimal ability score requirements. It merely explains that--on the random-scroll tables--spells with multiple levels (such as CSW) are presumed to appear at their lowest level (note how the 4th-level divine spell list doesn't contain "Ranger CSW"). And the text from that section itself explains that it is referring to the random-scroll tables (and, thus, not more generally).

It is not an exception to the "10 + spell level" rule, and CSW for a ranger clearly has a spell level of 4. Otherwise, under your explanation, an 11th-level ranger (with 13 WIS) could go around casting CSW from scrolls without incurring a caster level check, but had to wait until 14th level to cast it from memory.


Now if Belkar secretly had levels in rogue and a high UMD skill....

[Bocc Kob]

Where are you getting the "seductress-type" idea from -- just that they "appear attractive to humans", or is there something else that I missed?

For some of us, that's enough...

[silvadel]

This most recent comic solidifies the intimidation skills of Belkar -- I would figure they are quite high ..... Would you like it hotter mr bitterleaf -- I can do hotter :)

[RMS Oceanic]

He also possesses "Mama Bitterleaf's Secret Ingrediant", which provides him with a +2 Circumstance Bonus to Profession (Gourmet Chef) checks.

[Fitzclowningham]

Erinyes don't have the ability to drain energy. Sabine does. Also, if Sabine had a bow, she would have used it by now. She's not an Erinyes. I think she's a succubus, and CE. Her superiors don't have to have the same alignment as Nale to want to help/spy on him.