World of Warcraft XIII: Even Aspects Get Nerfed

[Psyren]

I know - but had Garrosh gotten the upper hand legitimately, would he have pulled that finishing blow? Of course not, because Cairne's accomplishments and benefits to the Horde be damned, he insulted Garrosh's honor.

My point is that no leader in the Alliance would behave that way. The closest we have to internal conflict right now is the dwarf-chick, and I don't see her insisting on any duels to the death anytime soon.

[Dublock]

I am going to try to respond posts from older to newer :p

Sylvanas to me is the most interesting leader out of the bunch. I do fully admit I hated her guts in WC3 when she was a Night Elf, I felt like she was a spoiled brat (been a while, I really need to re-play it). But after she was killed and turned by Arthas, that was the defining moment that shaped her, and when the Elves rejected her as well, because she is a (trying to remember the exact quote) "defilement of nature." You know, if I was killed raised from the dead, tortured, and then rejected by my own race, I might make those same choices she did.

I had figured that Thrall was going to be removed, but I didn't think Cairne was going to die.

I know - but had Garrosh gotten the upper hand legitimately, would he have pulled that finishing blow? Of course not, because Cairne's accomplishments and benefits to the Horde be damned, he insulted Garrosh's honor.

I have no doubt that he would have done the killing blow no matter what.

My fiancee knows that Garrosh had no idea the blade was poisoned but rather that was the frosting on the cake for her.

Also we are at page 49 so we need a new title. Hmm...

"Lions and tigers and Pandas, Oh my!" is my first attempt to get things started lol.

[Traab]

I Bring Pandamonium!

[The Glyphstone]

A modification of the first suggestion:

"World of Warcraft XIV: Monkeys and Fishmen and Pandas, Oh My!"

[ZeroNumerous]

World of Warcraft XIV: Garrosh Team Kills

[The Glyphstone]

World of Warcraft XIV: Should Have Chosen Abesik Campfire.

[Antonok]

Since I'm just waiting for the raid to end garrosh, (and because I just recently watched Alice in Wonderland again) my suggestion is

World of Warcraft XIV: Down with the bloody Green Head!

[Psyren]

I vote for something panda-related, we likely won't be headhunting Garrosh for awhile.

EDIT: I like Traab's suggestion best

[Ivellius]

I always thought of sylvanis as the really grey leader. She uses horrible bio weapons of terror in her attacks, yes, but she is basically doing all this to create her nation of intelligent zombies and keep the population up. I liked how in the early levels, we get to see that yes, the forsaken do have free will, as some reject her, some deny reality, and some accept becoming forsaken. We see it even more when she gets betrayed in silverpine. Its an interesting dynamic really. Unlike every other race, hers cant reproduce by snoo snoo. She has to raise the dead and convince them to join her.

I'll agree that the Forsaken might have some interesting potential...but Sylvanas is about as black as you can get these days. The Forsaken that don't serve her, after all, get completely destroyed, and she officially manipulates the newly raised who've basically lost their minds in the trauma of their rebirth into fighting for her.* Doesn't seem like much choice involved in that.

There's also the possibility of her using mind control on people (it's her signature ability in WC3, after all)--have you ever wandered why Cromush is so quick to want her raised?

*I think it was the latest CDev questions that commented on this, although I think this answer is more convoluted than her just enlisting fresh undead with valkyr mind control.

World of Warcraft XIV: Should Have Chosen Abesik Campfire.

This gets my vote for new thread title. Or how about "Abesik Campfire - 2012"?

[Krazzman]

I offer my attempt at this with:
World of Warcraft XIV: The Sha of Slothiness

Or something food related like pandaren want pastry or such stuff.

[ZeroNumerous]

I vote for something panda-related, we likely won't be headhunting Garrosh for awhile.

With the time it takes us to go through WoW threads: Garrosh will likely be a raid boss before the next one comes up.

[Traab]

I'll agree that the Forsaken might have some interesting potential...but Sylvanas is about as black as you can get these days. The Forsaken that don't serve her, after all, get completely destroyed, and she officially manipulates the newly raised who've basically lost their minds in the trauma of their rebirth into fighting for her.* Doesn't seem like much choice involved in that.

There's also the possibility of her using mind control on people (it's her signature ability in WC3, after all)--have you ever wandered why Cromush is so quick to want her raised?

*I think it was the latest CDev questions that commented on this, although I think this answer is more convoluted than her just enlisting fresh undead with valkyr mind control.



This gets my vote for new thread title. Or how about "Abesik Campfire - 2012"?

I figured he wanted her raised because she died on his watch and garrosh would likely beat him to death when he finds out. After all, hate her he does, but need her he also does. She is one of his biggest forces on the landmass and with her dead, the alliance would be able to push forward in a big way while things are unsettled. Who would take over for her if she did truly die?

As far as mind controlling newly raised. Its covered in the forsaken starting area. Three are raised, only one is willing to join. One rebels and tries to fight the forsaken, he gets put down, duh. the other is crazy and runs off. Aside from trying to convince her that yes, she is a forsaken now, she is mainly left alone. There is no, "She wont serve the dark lady? KILL HER!" type missions. I believe they do raise fodder undead that are basically there to catch fireballs for the real forsaken, but those are more zombies than anything.

[ZeroNumerous]

When of the first quests in the opening Forsaken chain involves killing named undead who don't wanna serve the Dark Lady. One of them is Marshal Redpath.

[Gryffon]

When of the first quests in the opening Forsaken chain involves killing named undead who don't wanna serve the Dark Lady. One of them is Marshal Redpath.

Actually, the player's response to Redpath is "You are free to do whatever you like."

He leaves and later tries to attack Deathknell, which is when you kill him.

[LordofBones]

Because whenever we got good guys, people (re: vocal minority/majority) whined.

And Wrynn was a D-bag for a while. But he's had character progression, and actually improved rather well.

Spoiler

Show

Wrynn used to whine about how he was turned into a legendary gladiator where people cheered for him for all of maybe a week or two, and in some cases nearly turned violent about it, when Thrall was forced into it from childhood, was booed and hated and NOT cheered for, for a period of years rather than weeks, and violently beaten within an inch of his life the one time he lost.
Wrynn's life was so hard and he suffered so much OMGBBQ!!!

Personally, if I'm ever a prisoner of war, I hope I have it half as good as Wrynn had it.

Wrynn never whined about that. Instead, he walked into the Undercity and found just what the Forsaken had been doing since vanilla, while Thrall was either too inept or too clueless to handle things.

Also, Thrall was groomed to be Blackmoore's second-in-command, and was also shown the good side of humanity. All of Varian's experiences with orcs have been on the negative side of the column, from the bloodthirsty army that butchered his city and murdered his father, to the monsters that splattered his mentor's brains all over Blackrock Mountain.

[Karoht]

I know - but had Garrosh gotten the upper hand legitimately, would he have pulled that finishing blow? Of course not, because Cairne's accomplishments and benefits to the Horde be damned, he insulted Garrosh's honor.

Had Garrosh won legitimately, he would have still killed Cairne. Why? Because that's how the Mak'gora works.
Cairne challenged him. Cairne knew that by challenging him, Garrosh could up the stakes by saying 'to the death.' Cairne also knew that he could withdraw, but fought anyway.
This is why Bane (his son) held no spite towards Garrosh over the matter (see The Shattering and quests from Thunderbluff) and why Bane was angry with Magatha.
Magatha is the reason Cairne is dead. The next in line for blame is Cairne himself for issuing the challenge and placing his own life on the line to prove a point, followed by Garrosh for accepting a legitmate challenge.
Lets also remember that the incident that pushed Cairne to the challenge was caused by the Twilight Hammer cult and NOT Garrosh.
No love for Garrosh, but I'm a big fan of the logic of credit where credit is due.
Not directed at you Psyren, but it amazes me how much of the fan-dumb think that Garrosh killed the Ashenvale druids, Garrosh issued the challenge, Garrosh intentionally poisoned the blade. When not one of those three things is true.


@LordofBones
Wrynn complains about his captivity in the comics (pretty much any time Orcs are mentioned, though this appears to be exaggerated in the comic, probably for recap effect) as well as in 4 books he is featured in (The Shattering, Wolfheart, Stormrage, Tides of War). So yes, he does complain about it. He complains about being turned into a celebrity, he complains about having members of the Horde cheer for him. Oh boo hoo. He also forgets that Raggar let him go after rewarding him pretty decently. He also quickly forgets that a member of the Horde assisted him in rescuing his son and helping him defeat Onyxia, thereby saving his kingdom. But no, the whole Horde was bad, at least until his recent attitude change.
Yes, Thrall was shown the positive side of the Alliance. With all of 2 people. Sargent, and [insert name of girl who's name currently escapes me] Taretha in Lord of the Clans, if you want to talk about his internment. He is later introduced to more of the positive side of the Alliance via interactions in Warcraft 3.


Sure, Wrynn has had few other dealings with the Horde. His whitewashing attitude (recently changed as of Tides of War) was nothing but ignorant and racist. Thankfully he has grown away from that. The big difference between Wrynn and Garrosh is that Wrynn has accepted that not all Horde are evil or deserve violence, and Garrosh has not accepted the same truth of the Alliance.

[Ivellius]

@LordofBones
Wrynn complains about his captivity in the comics (pretty much any time Orcs are mentioned, though this appears to be exaggerated in the comic, probably for recap effect) as well as in 4 books he is featured in (The Shattering, Wolfheart, Stormrage, Tides of War). So yes, he does complain about it. He complains about being turned into a celebrity, he complains about having members of the Horde cheer for him. Oh boo hoo. He also forgets that Raggar let him go after rewarding him pretty decently. He also quickly forgets that a member of the Horde assisted him in rescuing his son and helping him defeat Onyxia, thereby saving his kingdom. But no, the whole Horde was bad, at least until his recent attitude change.
Yes, Thrall was shown the positive side of the Alliance. With all of 2 people. Sargent, and [insert name of girl who's name currently escapes me] Taretha in Lord of the Clans, if you want to talk about his internment. He is later introduced to more of the positive side of the Alliance via interactions in Warcraft 3.


Sure, Wrynn has had few other dealings with the Horde. His whitewashing attitude (recently changed as of Tides of War) was nothing but ignorant and racist. Thankfully he has grown away from that. The big difference between Wrynn and Garrosh is that Wrynn has accepted that not all Horde are evil or deserve violence, and Garrosh has not accepted the same truth of the Alliance.

I don't think Varian knows that Reghar made little effort to recover him--from what I understand, he later gets quite upset when Thrall brings Reghar to a diplomatic meeting. And no matter his level of celebrity, I'd think being enslaved and forced to fight would be plenty of reason to complain. As best as I know, the Alliance doesn't even have slavery anymore.*

I don't remember any Horde members helping uncover Onyxia. Valeera makes it clear that she has no loyalty to Horde or Alliance (fitting for a blood elf of her time) and is at any rate more of an Alliance character due to her loyalty to Varian. I'm not sure what positive experiences Varian is supposed to have had with the Horde.

*And probably hasn't for a long time other than the orcs. Maybe some of its vaguely feudal trappings could be considered slavery de facto, though Azeroth is surprisingly modern.

[Psyren]

Had Garrosh won legitimately, he would have still killed Cairne. Why? Because that's how the Mak'gora works.

Clearly it does NOT work that way, otherwise Garrosh wouldn't have had to insist the contest be lethal at all - it would have been assumed. The fact that he specifically asked for it to be to the death, means that it is NOT that way by default.

Lets also remember that the incident that pushed Cairne to the challenge was caused by the Twilight Hammer cult and NOT Garrosh.

Yet, had Thrall been challenged like that, he would have - like any level-headed leader - investigated and found that out rather than immediately head to the arena with his manhood firmly in hand.

Garrosh didn't. Rather than question "why would this normally fairly peaceful cow suddenly want to kick my ass out of the blue?" he immediately responded with "COME AT ME BRO" instead. I'm sure 5 minutes of questioning would have led him to Hamuul's (false) accusation, which he could have then disproved. But no, not Garrosh - taking the time to uncover a conspiracy is apparently not manly.

Not that Cairne and Hamuul are much smarter in this regard. The Alliance has druids, including the most powerful one in the world, so why would the Horde start murdering theirs? From a purely tactical viewpoint, it's idiotic.

Not directed at you Psyren, but it amazes me how much of the fan-dumb think that Garrosh killed the Ashenvale druids, Garrosh issued the challenge, Garrosh intentionally poisoned the blade. When not one of those three things is true.

I would hope that wasn't directed at me, since I said none of those three things.

[LordofBones]

Sure, Wrynn has had few other dealings with the Horde. His whitewashing attitude (recently changed as of Tides of War) was nothing but ignorant and racist. Thankfully he has grown away from that. The big difference between Wrynn and Garrosh is that Wrynn has accepted that not all Horde are evil or deserve violence, and Garrosh has not accepted the same truth of the Alliance.

No, Varian has been anything but racist. He's actually been pretty accurate about the orcs. You forget that he voted to spare the green skinned butchers of his city and his people, and that the orcs arrived as conquerors. Jaina - and Thrall - have idealistic views on the orcs, but the dwarves, the people of Stormwind and the night elves have seen - and are still experiencing - the worst side of the orcs.

His gladitorial debut was also an example of Horde hypocrisy. Thrall is either a colossal hypocrite or a limp-wristed twit, given that he allows this sort of **** to happen and then promotes Reghar to the post of advsor. Reghar, who did not chase the fleeing Varian because Varian made him rich. Are you seriously complaining that Varian is angry that he was enslaved and forced to fight for a living, at the hands of the same green-skinned monsters who slaughtered his city and cut out his father's heart?

[LordofBones]

I don't think Varian knows that Reghar made little effort to recover him--from what I understand, he later gets quite upset when Thrall brings Reghar to a diplomatic meeting. And no matter his level of celebrity, I'd think being enslaved and forced to fight would be plenty of reason to complain. As best as I know, the Alliance doesn't even have slavery anymore.*


*And probably hasn't for a long time other than the orcs. Maybe some of its vaguely feudal trappings could be considered slavery de facto, though Azeroth is surprisingly modern.

"Slavery" is pushing it. The orcs were simply incapable of doing anything thanks to steroid withdrawal; Thrall was the exception, as I recall.

Of course, we do have to consider that the Alliance had just endured an alien invasion. I doubt anyone was feeling charitable towards the orcs; much less the people who had to pay increased taxes to support them.

[Karoht]

Clearly it does NOT work that way, otherwise Garrosh wouldn't have had to insist the contest be lethal at all - it would have been assumed. The fact that he specifically asked for it to be to the death, means that it is NOT that way by default.

Clearly the option exists, and Cairne knew this, and you would have to be silly to think that Garrosh WOULDN'T escalate it to the death. So Cairne had to have made the challenge knowing that it would come to this. Cairne isn't dumb. He knew he was putting his life on the line for his ideals. Bane also said this. I'm pretty sure Cairne said this to himself in the arena before the fight occured. I'm vaguely certain that he said this to himself before confronting Garrosh in the first place.

But no, not Garrosh - taking the time to uncover a conspiracy is apparently not manly.

Cairne still struck first and asked questions later.
Yes, Thrall would have declined the challenge and stuck with proving himself in other means. No one ever said Garrosh was level headed. Again, Cairne knew that going in.

Not that Cairne and Hamuul are much smarter in this regard. The Alliance has druids, including the most powerful one in the world, so why would the Horde start murdering theirs? From a purely tactical viewpoint, it's idiotic.

I'm still not sure how Hamuul came to the erroneous conclusion that it was Garrosh's people, apart from finding one orc in the attacking party. But, my memory is fuzzy on that one. Shucks, I guess I'll just have to re-read the Shattering, one of my favorite books. Darn

I would hope that wasn't directed at me, since I said none of those three things.

Which is why I specified that it wasn't directed at you.
It's also why I addressed the fan-dumb. I should have been more clear and said the fan-dumb on the Blizzard Forums and MMO-champion.com rather than just leaving it at fan-dumb.

No, Varian has been anything but racist. He's actually been pretty accurate about the orcs. You forget that he voted to spare the green skinned butchers of his city and his people, and that the orcs arrived as conquerors.

Um, I think you mean King Teranas Menethil, not Varian. Varian was a child at the time. Though, I think you could be right that he was given a vote in the matter. Even so, child Varian and post-gladitorial-rock star-awesomeness Varian are two different things.

Thrall is either a colossal hypocrite or a limp-wristed twit, given that he allows this sort of **** to happen and then promotes Reghar to the post of advsor.

Thrall is the smart enough leader to know that his people are going to fight, end of story. He can either deny it and turn a blind eye, or he can essentially give it the green light in order to keep some sembalance of control over it. Emphasis on some. He probably should have exerted more control over it, however Thrall seemed more concerned with other issues at the time.
I would also argue that when Reghar found him, Varian was in Durotar, essentially a trespasser, not a refugee, not a dignitary. An Orc in Stormwind would hardly have been treated differently. Which makes Varian an even bigger hypocrit to complain about it. In fact, I'm pretty sure that he would have ordered the execution of a stray orc in his lands, Reghar did right by taking him in, even if the reasoning wasn't the most charitable. Would any other Orc have just killed him for trespassing? Probably, as any human would do the same to any Orc for trespassing near Stormwind.

Are you seriously complaining that Varian is angry that he was enslaved and forced to fight for a living, at the hands of the same green-skinned monsters who slaughtered his city and cut out his father's heart?

Yep. Because he complains about it rather frequently yet ignores that he and Thrall have any common ground on the matter. It would be like someone kidnapped and sent to rock star camp complaining about the food to someone who went to Auschwittz. Rather than see eye to eye with Thrall he chooses to spit in Thralls face about the matter. I was waiting for Thrall to say "in my day..." and fill in Varian about the severe differences between the two experiences.

As for the 'monsters who slaughtered his city and killed his father' Varian's inability to separate those monsters from the modern Horde is the very reason he is the way he is. It's fine. It's what gives him motivation to hate the Horde.
Or at least it used to be. As of the events of Tides of War, his motivations towards fighting the Horde seem to be less and less that of hatred. Sure, there is still some there, but Varian seems far more concerned about the well being of the Horde, not just crushing them outright. It's a great direction for Varian, he seems more interested in Justice and Righteousness rather than hatred and vengence for an event that very few living even remember, let alone participated in or deserve to be punished for.

Especially so if anyone has been paying attention to 5.1 spoilers.
(Jaina seems to be the one full of bloodlust lately)

[Ivellius]

"Slavery" is pushing it. The orcs were simply incapable of doing anything thanks to steroid withdrawal; Thrall was the exception, as I recall.

Of course, we do have to consider that the Alliance had just endured an alien invasion. I doubt anyone was feeling charitable towards the orcs; much less the people who had to pay increased taxes to support them.

Oh, I do think the Alliance treatment was relatively compassionate, but it was still slavery and/or imprisonment. Either is probably better than they deserved and certainly better than what the Horde would have inflicted on them.

I'm still not sure how Hamuul came to the erroneous conclusion that it was Garrosh's people, apart from finding one orc in the attacking party. But, my memory is fuzzy on that one. Shucks, I guess I'll just have to re-read the Shattering, one of my favorite books. Darn

Two orcs, maybe? Haven't read the book, but Wowpedia seems to indicate the raiding party was comprised of orcs.

Um, I think you mean King Teranas Menethil, not Varian. Varian was a child at the time. Though, I think you could be right that he was given a vote in the matter. Even so, child Varian and post-gladitorial-rock star-awesomeness Varian are two different things.

Varian was young at the time, but he was crowned at eighteen and seems to have had a vote.

I would also argue that when Reghar found him, Varian was in Durotar, essentially a trespasser, not a refugee, not a dignitary. An Orc in Stormwind would hardly have been treated differently. Which makes Varian an even bigger hypocrit to complain about it. In fact, I'm pretty sure that he would have ordered the execution of a stray orc in his lands, Reghar did right by taking him in, even if the reasoning wasn't the most charitable. Would any other Orc have just killed him for trespassing? Probably, as any human would do the same to any Orc for trespassing near Stormwind.

Yep. Because he complains about it rather frequently yet ignores that he and Thrall have any common ground on the matter. It would be like someone kidnapped and sent to rock star camp complaining about the food to someone who went to Auschwittz. Rather than see eye to eye with Thrall he chooses to spit in Thralls face about the matter. I was waiting for Thrall to say "in my day..." and fill in Varian about the severe differences between the two experiences.

Varian was shipwrecked, amnesiac, and (although unknown to anyone) ripped apart by black magic. He'd been heading to Kalimdor as a dignitary when all of that happened to him, so "trespasser" seems an entirely inappropriate label. I mean, sure, that's how the orcs might see him, but it wasn't intentional. Reghar didn't "take him in"; he enslaved him. There's a pretty vast difference.

There were some differences in Varian and Thrall's experiences (length of captivity being one of the biggest), but Varian's treatment wasn't as much better as you insinuate. The Alliance didn't really even know how capable orcs could be before their captivity; as far as they knew they were cruel, clever, and exceedingly hostile and monstrous. That's not to excuse things, exactly, but they were both kept as gladiatorial slaves. According to (the angry) part of Thrall's spirit (in the Elemental Bonds line), "anyone" who keeps slaves deserves "worse than death." Strangely, that doesn't seem to apply to orcs or the Crimson Ring.

It's a great direction for Varian, he seems more interested in Justice and Righteousness rather than hatred and vengence for an event that very few living even remember, let alone participated in or deserve to be punished for.

Are you talking about the Second War? A lot of people on both sides were in it and/or remember it. It was a bit under 30 years ago. For comparison, how many people are around today that participated in Operation: Desert Storm?

[The Glyphstone]

Considering the whole point of the Elemental Bonds line is Thrall being torn apart into constituent parts of his psyche, I wouldn't trust the words of any one portion of him to represent the whole any more than I'd rely on the various hallucinatory personifications of Haley's subconscious to accurate represent her.

[Karoht]

There were some differences in Varian and Thrall's experiences (length of captivity being one of the biggest), but Varian's treatment wasn't as much better as you insinuate.

Read the comics. Varian was never beaten randomly by his captors. He was struck all of once, by Rehgar, upon capture. He was also well fed, well equiped, well looked after, had pretty spacious living quarters, was allowed friends, was allowed visitation. His freedoms as a gladiator under Rehgar's care greatly outnumber Thralls at the hands of Adelis Blackmoore. Thrall was beaten, frequently. He was occasionally starved, he was insulted and spat on by literally anyone who ever walked past his cage. Varian Wrynn did not spend his time in a cage nor did he spend it in solitary confinement. And going by the comic (for Varians quarters) as well as Durnholde (for Thrall's cage), I would say Varian had the better conditions by a considerable margin. Also, Lo'Gosh (Varian's other half) claimed to enjoy fighting. Thrall largely didn't.
This is like a baseball player complaining about having to spend the night in a Quality Inn instead of the Ritz Carlton, to a hobo living in a cardboard box on the street.

Thrall also had death threats uttered at him daily for a period of longer than a decade. Please tell me you understand the difference between the odd person in the crowd booing you (the rest cheering for you like you're the greatest thing since sliced bread) for a fortnight, and an entire crowd gathering every day, hoping that you die, because they hate you, completely and utterly, for something you had no involvement in, for a decade. That is a pretty big difference.

I'm sorry, maybe I'm missing something here, but why do people seem to insist that the only difference was the time involved, and even that difference gets swept under the rug? I don't get it. Rockstar camp for 2 weeks (but not his choice), horrible violent nightmare for a decade. Why do people somehow equate the two? Is there something I'm missing here?

Are you talking about the Second War? A lot of people on both sides were in it and/or remember it. It was a bit under 30 years ago.

According to the wiki, yes there are those around who remember it, but the death toll on both sides was pretty high. Most of the population grew up in the shadow of these events, or were children at the time. Arthas and Jaina were children during the Second War, for comparison.
However, that also means that most of the population were alive for the Third War, where the Orcs helped save the world at Hyjal. Which only happened less than 10 years ago in lore time. Maybe as few as 7 years ago, if I remember correctly.

[Ivellius]

Glyph, I'm not arguing any one portion of Thrall speaks for all of him, but if you think these pieces of him represent any part of him you'd have to say that thought is there. I think it's more inconsistent storytelling than anything, but there have you.

Read the comics. Varian was never beaten randomly by his captors. He was struck all of once, by Rehgar, upon capture. He was also well fed, well equiped, well looked after, had pretty spacious living quarters, was allowed friends, was allowed visitation. His freedoms as a gladiator under Rehgar's care greatly outnumber Thralls at the hands of Adelis Blackmoore. Thrall was beaten, frequently. He was occasionally starved, he was insulted and spat on by literally anyone who ever walked past his cage. Varian Wrynn did not spend his time in a cage nor did he spend it in solitary confinement. And going by the comic (for Varians quarters) as well as Durnholde (for Thrall's cage), I would say Varian had the better conditions by a considerable margin. Also, Lo'Gosh (Varian's other half) claimed to enjoy fighting. Thrall largely didn't.
This is like a baseball player complaining about having to spend the night in a Quality Inn instead of the Ritz Carlton, to a hobo living in a cardboard box on the street.

I've read those particular comics, in fact, as well as Lord of the Clans. Did you? I don't remember Varian receiving any visitors, and on his first day training Rehgar lets in an orc to kill him after he and his friends had already finished a fight. The reason the time gets brought up as the biggest difference is that it is: Rehgar doesn't show himself particularly cruel, but he also doesn't have that opportunity like Blackmoore did. What if Varian loses him a bunch of money? (Based on how he reacts on finding Varian, he probably enslaves someone else and/or keeps his team around to fight until he does make his windfall.) He's a decent guy for a slave owner is the best you can say about him.

In contrast, Blackmoore raises a helpless infant as a child, gives him a good education and martial training, and only later plays the role of an abusive father. Blackmoore is a failure of a person in his life and put Go'el through a horrible adolescence, but that shouldn't mean that Horde slaveholders are excused from what they do. If anything, you'd think it would bother Thrall.

I'm sorry, maybe I'm missing something here, but why do people seem to insist that the only difference was the time involved, and even that difference gets swept under the rug? I don't get it. Rockstar camp for 2 weeks (but not his choice), horrible violent nightmare for a decade. Why do people somehow equate the two? Is there something I'm missing here?

People equate the two because they were both slaves. Sure, if you have to choose between slightly better slavery you pick that one, but that doesn't mean it's okay to have slavery. I'm not really sure what anyone "swe[eps] under the rug" in these discussions. I will say that "rock star camp" is quite the misleading way to discuss Varian's situation. For his part, Thrall seems to have been celebrated so long as he won.

According to the wiki, yes there are those around who remember it, but the death toll on both sides was pretty high. Most of the population grew up in the shadow of these events, or were children at the time. Arthas and Jaina were children during the Second War, for comparison.

However, that also means that most of the population were alive for the Third War, where the Orcs helped save the world at Hyjal. Which only happened less than 10 years ago in lore time. Maybe as few as 7 years ago, if I remember correctly.

Blizzard either doesn't really give numbers about casualties or makes a mess of it when they do, but a couple of big factors mitigate the time span for those living in the Eastern Kingdoms. First, the Alliance isn't entirely human--to the longer-lived gnomes, dwarves, and high elves who fought in the Second War it was much less than a generation ago, and any of their military personnel who survived are more than likely still in good health. Second, the orcs also fought the Alliance in the Third War when they broke out of the internment camps. The orcs at Blackrock have also been a continual presence. Hyjal is known about, but people are more likely to remember the things they actually saw and have experienced. And since then their experiences with the Horde or orcs more generally have been almost exclusively hostile.

[Karoht]

For his part, Thrall seems to have been celebrated so long as he won.

How do you call what took place in Lord of the Clans to be celebration of Thrall's performance? Guards under Blackmoore's employ regularly beat Thrall, insulted him, spat on him, threw food at him. The crowd that showed up to watch Thrall is expressly described as booing him pretty consistantly, calling for his death, throwing food at him. I'm really not getting how he's celebrated here.
Maybe my definition of celebrated is different from yours?

That kind of treatment nowadays has a term. Abuse. Long term mental and physical abuse.
Contrast Varian. An entire arena filled with people calling him a legendary figure from THEIR culture, and screaming it at the top of their lungs.

If you call what Varian went through as abuse on the same scale as Thrall's... yeah, I'm lost.

Agree to disagree? *shrug*

[LordofBones]

No, Varian's slavery is just another on the list of reasons why he dislikes the Horde. Being treated as a better slave does not change the fact that he was enslaved.

And Varian was never shown the good side of the orcs. Being cheered on is the equivalent of a bunch of fans cheering on their choice, not about how moral the orcs are.

[Zherog]

Hit 90 on my mage the other day. In an attempt to avoid doing my freelance work, I decided to do some research on how to play an arcane mage in Mists. (Short answer: not much is different.) So I hopped out to Karoht's favorite plug, icy-veins.com. I'm not sure what I was expecting from the site, but whatever it was the site far exceeded my expectations. Clean and easy to read, well-organized, small chunks of data at a time that are well-categorized. Just overall a very interesting read.

What I learned was that I was doing most things right, but have to work a few things into my rotation a bit better.

Thanks for the link, Karoht. Now you can't see that nobody follows your recommendation. ;)

[Mutant Sheep]

I'm tempted to take the Mists trial, but I cant even level past 85 in it. (admittidly my highest is a 81 Scroll'd druid in Hyjal). The free 80 was definitly a evil move, I'm really tempted to get the trial and just fly around slaughtering those ------- Outlands Fel Reavers.

[Karoht]

What I learned was that I was doing most things right, but have to work a few things into my rotation a bit better.

Thanks for the link, Karoht. Now you can't see that nobody follows your recommendation. ;)

Yaaay, I helped someone by pointing them to a quality resource.