Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)

[Gift Jeraff]

I agree that Thog should be considered former, even if he still is technically a member (much like how Z says he never stopped working for Nale). Too early to tell for Qarr.

And what they said.

[St Fan]

The "(deceased)" mention for Yukyuk wasn't put on the right line.

[Emanick]

I'm going to propose that the table at the beginning of Kurald's post no longer indicate that all six members of the Order became level 11 in comic number 12. That leads us to the absurd conclusion that Vaarsuvius was able to cast 6th level spells before Xykon was even introduced as a character, but that (s)he refrained from casting any 6th level spells onscreen until comic 186.

It makes much more sense to assume that the Giant simply didn't bother to explicitly note every level-up of every Order member between #12 and #186. Thus, we have no way of knowing what level the Order started at. (I always assumed it was level 8, since V seems to be able to cast level 5 spells after comic #12, but that's just me.)

[Kish]

I agree with Emanick. In the Dungeon of Dorukan the Order members were all a handwaved 5th-7th level, irrespective of onstage level-ups.

[Gift Jeraff]

Also, if we're using Scorching Ray as evidence that Qarr's maximum level is 10, that would mean V's maximum level was 10 in #65 (I see no reason why s/he'd not use 3 rays if possible).

[Douglas]

Based on V's Scorching Ray and the gaining of a new spell level in #12, I think we can conclusively determine that the Order started the comic at level 8, reached level 9 in strip #12, and have had some off-panel levelups since then.

[Gift Jeraff]

Link for the Chaotic half of Xykon's alignment: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showp...71&postcount=5

[RMS Oceanic]

Corrected Yukyuk's deceased tag, added the reference for Xykon's Ethical worldview.

[Fenice]

The Giant confirmed that Redcloak was able to affect Soon with his Rebuke Undead ability.

We know that Redcloak was maximum a 16th-level cleric at the time. 16th-level clerics can't affect undead with more than 20 HD.
This means one of two things. Either Soon isn't an epic character (he could be a 20th-level paladin) or Redcloak has some feat or other effect that increases his cleric level for the purpore of rebuking undead (such as Improved Turning).

[RMS Oceanic]

That's some good detective work. Unfortunately we don't know enough about Soon's level to tell us anything new about Redcloak. The closest I can determine is we see him Smite Evil three times, giving him a minimum level of Paladin 10. Also Xykon comments that he packs a wallop, suggesting he can reliably overcome Xykon's damage resistance despite using a slashing weapon, but that could just be a generous use of Power Attack and lucky shots. A level 10 undead would be well within Redcloak's turning attempt, so that's all I've got at this time.

[hamishspence]

We know that Redcloak was maximum a 16th-level cleric at the time.

We know he was at least 15th level, since he has 8th level spell slots- casting Extended (+1 metamagic feat) Summon Monster VII (7th level spell) to summon that elephant.

[Gilphon]

I think the most probably explanation is that RC has somehow boosted his turning ability.

We certainly know other order of the Scribble members were epic, so it pretty unlikely to me for their leaders to have been seriously underleveled.

[Gnomish Wanderer]

Kilkil is almost certainly a Dragonwrought Kobold of at least Level 12. This is evident first from the unusual color of his scales and then from his wings, which he can use to fly for long periods of time.

Note: This was primarily researched by D&D5eplayer and thepsyker.

[RMS Oceanic]

I think the most probably explanation is that RC has somehow boosted his turning ability.

We certainly know other order of the Scribble members were epic, so it pretty unlikely to me for their leaders to have been seriously underleveled.

Perhaps, but without solid evidence of Soon's minimum level being that high, we can't assume anything new about Redcloak.

Kilkil is almost certainly a Dragonwrought Kobold of at least Level 12. This is evident first from the unusual color of his scales and then from his wings, which he can use to fly for long periods of time.

Note: This was primarily researched by D&D5eplayer and thepsyker.

Another possibility is that he's a Ninth Level Dragon Disciple, or he has the Winged template from Savage Species, or he has a Wings of Flying that he has active all the time. I would rather wait to see Kilkil in combat to see what he fights with before making any assumption about where he gets his wings from.

[Gnomish Wanderer]

Another possibility is that he's a Ninth Level Dragon Disciple, or he has the Winged template from Savage Species, or he has a Wings of Flying that he has active all the time. I would rather wait to see Kilkil in combat to see what he fights with before making any assumption about where he gets his wings from.

Ah, the dragon disciple one makes sense, I couldn't think of anything else that would give him both wings and strange color. But mixed with the strange colorization of Kilkil I'd say it's unlikely to be Winged or Wings of Flying. But yeah, good point about the fighting, that'll give a lot more information.

[ti'esar]

I think the most probably explanation is that RC has somehow boosted his turning ability.

We certainly know other order of the Scribble members were epic, so it pretty unlikely to me for their leaders to have been seriously underleveled.

It's possible that the other Scribblers only reached epic level after the group broke up, whereas Soon remained at 20 until he died.

I don't think this is particularly likely, though.

[Chronos]

It's possible that the other Scribblers only reached epic level after the group broke up, whereas Soon remained at 20 until he died.

Weren't the Rifts sealed, and the Gates constructed, using epic magic?

I'm almost certain that there's evidence somewhere for all of the Scribblers being epic, but I'm not sure where.

[Kish]

Weren't the Rifts sealed, and the Gates constructed, using epic magic?

Indeed. And by that, we would know that Dorukan and Lirian were epic, even if they hadn't invented the epic spells of Cloister and If-You-Read-Start-Of-Darkness-Then-You-Know-What.

The rest of the Order of the Scribble did not create the Gates, though they defended them.

Understand, I'm quite sure all the members of the Order of the Scribble were/are epic. Actual proof of same being in the comic, though? Not that I recall.

[Yendor]

Given that Rich explicitly said he was fudging the rules, I'd be wary of drawing conclusions from that incident.

[SavageWombat]

Don't you stop gaining HD at Epic level?

[RMS Oceanic]

Don't you stop gaining HD at Epic level?

No, you gain hit dice as normal. Your BAB and Save Progression changes however.

[zimmerwald1915]

That's some good detective work. Unfortunately we don't know enough about Soon's level to tell us anything new about Redcloak. The closest I can determine is we see him Smite Evil three times, giving him a minimum level of Paladin 10. Also Xykon comments that he packs a wallop, suggesting he can reliably overcome Xykon's damage resistance despite using a slashing weapon, but that could just be a generous use of Power Attack and lucky shots. A level 10 undead would be well within Redcloak's turning attempt, so that's all I've got at this time.

Redcloak wasn't the only one rebuking Deathless that day in the courtroom. Jirix was there too. And he couldn't affect "mid-level" (call it level 8 to level 14, with a heavy bias towards the low end of that spectrum, and probably no one above 12) paladins. According to Redcloak, the throne room was Consecrated, which means either a -3 or -6 to both their rebuking attempts, depending on whether the Sapphire counts as an "altar, shrine, or permanent fixture dedicated to" the Twelve, or, if it does not, on whether or not there's some other such fixture in the throne room.

Jirix's rebuking check at the time would have thus been 1d20+CHA mod-3 at best. We have no reason to believe his mechanical Charisma is above 3, though the circumstantial evidence (Cleric levels, able to keep the hobboes out of the throne room, inauguration speech) implies some kind of bonus on Charisma-based skills and abilities. But for the moment, let's assume minimum CHA. That puts Jirix's rebuking check at 1d20-7, and his maximum roll a 13. To be unable to affect deathless of 8 HD or more with a roll of 13, a cleric needs to be level 6 or less. Giving Jirix more Charisma necessarily implies giving him fewer levels, to the point where if he had between 10 and 15 Charisma, his maximum level would be 5, and if he had a Charisma score between 16 and 18 his maximum level would be 4. This is before applying his Hobgoblin LA.

Assuming a penalty of -6 instead of -3 gives the following for Jirix's maximum level:
If CHA = 3, rebuking check = 1d20-10, and Jirix's maximum level to be unable to affect undead with 8 HD = 7
If CHA = 18, rebuking check = 1d20-2, and Jirix's maximum level to be unable to affect undead with 8 HD = 5

This actually fits quite well with what we know about Jirix. An extremely low level (between 4 and 7 at the time of the throne room fight, between 3 and an unknown cap in the Darth V fight, currently between 2 and that unknown cap - 1) fits with both Miko and O-Chul being able to one-shot him with not-terribly-powerful attacks. Though to be fair O-Chul had help from Darth V in the form of at least 10 electricity damage. Unfortunately, it doesn't tell us anything about Soon, which I thought it might when I started typing this.

[zimmerwald1915]

I've redone the math, since I forgot to factor Jirix's likely five ranks in Knowledge (religion) into his maximum possible rebuking check. The whole thing's in this spoiler:

Spoiler

Show

IF JIRIX’S CHA = 3
# of rebuking attempts per day (minimum 1) = 3 base - 4 CHA + 4 extra turning
Max rebuking check with -3 penalty = 1d20 base - 4 CHA + 2 Knowledge (religion) - 3 Consecrate: max 15
Max rebuking check with -6 penalty = 1d20 base - 4 CHA + 2 Knowledge (religion) - 6 Consecrate: max 12
Cleric level with -3 penalty = 6 (to be unable to affect 8 HD deathless)
Cleric level with -6 penalty = 7

IF JIRIX’S CHA = 4 or 5
# of rebuking attempts per day (minimum 1) = 3 base - 3 CHA + 4 extra turning
Max rebuking check with -3 penalty = 1d20 base - 3 CHA + 2 Knowledge (religion) - 3 Consecrate: max 16
Max rebuking check with -6 penalty = 1d20 base - 3 CHA + 2 Knowledge (religion) - 6 Consecrate: max 13
Cleric level with -3 penalty = 5 (to be unable to affect 8 HD deathless)
Cleric level with -6 penalty = 6

IF JIRIX’S CHA = 6 or 7
# of rebuking attempts per day (minimum 1) = 3 base - 2 CHA (extra turning no longer required for minimum)
Max rebuking check with -3 penalty = 1d20 base - 2 CHA + 2 Knowledge (religion) - 3 Consecrate: max 17
Max rebuking check with -6 penalty = 1d20 base - 2 CHA + 2 Knowledge (religion) - 6 Consecrate: max 14
Cleric level with -3 penalty = 5 (to be unable to affect 8 HD deathless)
Cleric level with -6 penalty = 6

IF JIRIX’S CHA = 8 or 9
# of rebuking attempts per day (minimum 1) = 3 base - 1 CHA
Max rebuking check with -3 penalty = 1d20 base - 1 CHA + 2 Knowledge (religion) - 3 Consecrate: max 18
Max rebuking check with -6 penalty = 1d20 base - 1 CHA + 2 Knowledge (religion) - 6 Consecrate: max 15
Cleric level with -3 penalty = 5 (to be unable to affect 8 HD deathless)
Cleric level with -6 penalty = 6

IF JIRIX’S CHA = 10 or 11
# of rebuking attempts per day (minimum 1) = 3 base - 0 CHA
Max rebuking check with -3 penalty = 1d20 base - 0 CHA + 2 Knowledge (religion) - 3 Consecrate: max 19
Max rebuking check with -6 penalty = 1d20 base - 0 CHA + 2 Knowledge (religion) - 6 Consecrate: max 16
Cleric level with -3 penalty = 4 (to be unable to affect 8 HD deathless)
Cleric level with -6 penalty = 5

IF JIRIX’S CHA = 12 or 13
# of rebuking attempts per day (minimum 1) = 3 base + 1 CHA
Max rebuking check with -3 penalty = 1d20 base + 1 CHA + 2 Knowledge (religion) - 3 Consecrate: max 20
Max rebuking check with -6 penalty = 1d20 base + 1 CHA + 2 Knowledge (religion) - 6 Consecrate: max 17
Cleric level with -3 penalty = 4 (to be unable to affect 8 HD deathless)
Cleric level with -6 penalty = 5

IF JIRIX’S CHA = 14 or 15
# of rebuking attempts per day (minimum 1) = 3 base + 2 CHA
Max rebuking check with -3 penalty = 1d20 base + 2 CHA + 2 Knowledge (religion) - 3 Consecrate: max 21
Max rebuking check with -6 penalty = 1d20 base + 2 CHA + 2 Knowledge (religion) - 6 Consecrate: max 18
Cleric level with -3 penalty = 4 (to be unable to affect 8 HD deathless)
Cleric level with -6 penalty = 5

IF JIRIX’S CHA = 16 or 17
# of rebuking attempts per day (minimum 1) = 3 base + 3 CHA
Max rebuking check with -3 penalty = 1d20 base + 3 CHA + 2 Knowledge (religion) - 3 Consecrate: max 22
Max rebuking check with -6 penalty = 1d20 base + 3 CHA + 2 Knowledge (religion) - 6 Consecrate: max 19
Cleric level with -3 penalty = 3 (to be unable to affect 8 HD deathless)
Cleric level with -6 penalty = 4

IF JIRIX’S CHA = 18
# of rebuking attempts per day (minimum 1) = 3 base + 4 CHA
Max rebuking check with -3 penalty = 1d20 base + 4 CHA + 2 Knowledge (religion) - 3 Consecrate: max 23
Max rebuking check with -6 penalty = 1d20 base + 4 CHA + 2 Knowledge (religion) - 6 Consecrate: max 20
Cleric level with -3 penalty = 3 (to be unable to affect 8 HD deathless)
Cleric level with -6 penalty = 4

Condensed, Jirix's minimum possible level at the time of the throne room fight, assuming maximum Charisma and minimum Consecration penalty to his rebuking check, was 3. His maximum possible level, assuming minimum Charisma and maximum Consecration penalty, was 7.

That puts his minimum current level at 1, since he was raised twice, and leaves his maximum level unknown. We could narrow this down if we'd ever seen Jirix cast a spell, but I don't believe we have.

[Fenice]

I don't think Malack should be reported as having a Constitution score ~12. He says to have a frail health. This should mean 9 or probably lower.

[Math_Mage]

I don't think Malack should be reported as having a Constitution score ~12. He says to have a frail health. This should mean 9 or probably lower.

While I'm hesitant to simply take Malack at face value, his apparent albinism does indicate a Constitution lower than racial average. More hard data required, of course.

[Needle]

Unluckily for us, he wasn't Jirix but was a nameless cleric that was killed by Miko before she made her entrance here, notice he still has the slash he received from a female ghost martyr two strips ago. The castle exploded, so I guess that hobbo is below all that, unless I missed his first res

[ti'esar]

Actually, commentary in WaXPs states that guy is Jirix.

[zimmerwald1915]

Actually, commentary in WaXPs states that guy is Jirix.

So there

[Gift Jeraff]

I've redone the math, since I forgot to factor Jirix's likely five ranks in Knowledge (religion) into his maximum possible rebuking check. The whole thing's in this spoiler:

Spoiler

Show

IF JIRIX’S CHA = 3
# of rebuking attempts per day (minimum 1) = 3 base - 4 CHA + 4 extra turning
Max rebuking check with -3 penalty = 1d20 base - 4 CHA + 2 Knowledge (religion) - 3 Consecrate: max 15
Max rebuking check with -6 penalty = 1d20 base - 4 CHA + 2 Knowledge (religion) - 6 Consecrate: max 12
Cleric level with -3 penalty = 6 (to be unable to affect 8 HD deathless)
Cleric level with -6 penalty = 7

IF JIRIX’S CHA = 4 or 5
# of rebuking attempts per day (minimum 1) = 3 base - 3 CHA + 4 extra turning
Max rebuking check with -3 penalty = 1d20 base - 3 CHA + 2 Knowledge (religion) - 3 Consecrate: max 16
Max rebuking check with -6 penalty = 1d20 base - 3 CHA + 2 Knowledge (religion) - 6 Consecrate: max 13
Cleric level with -3 penalty = 5 (to be unable to affect 8 HD deathless)
Cleric level with -6 penalty = 6

IF JIRIX’S CHA = 6 or 7
# of rebuking attempts per day (minimum 1) = 3 base - 2 CHA (extra turning no longer required for minimum)
Max rebuking check with -3 penalty = 1d20 base - 2 CHA + 2 Knowledge (religion) - 3 Consecrate: max 17
Max rebuking check with -6 penalty = 1d20 base - 2 CHA + 2 Knowledge (religion) - 6 Consecrate: max 14
Cleric level with -3 penalty = 5 (to be unable to affect 8 HD deathless)
Cleric level with -6 penalty = 6

IF JIRIX’S CHA = 8 or 9
# of rebuking attempts per day (minimum 1) = 3 base - 1 CHA
Max rebuking check with -3 penalty = 1d20 base - 1 CHA + 2 Knowledge (religion) - 3 Consecrate: max 18
Max rebuking check with -6 penalty = 1d20 base - 1 CHA + 2 Knowledge (religion) - 6 Consecrate: max 15
Cleric level with -3 penalty = 5 (to be unable to affect 8 HD deathless)
Cleric level with -6 penalty = 6

IF JIRIX’S CHA = 10 or 11
# of rebuking attempts per day (minimum 1) = 3 base - 0 CHA
Max rebuking check with -3 penalty = 1d20 base - 0 CHA + 2 Knowledge (religion) - 3 Consecrate: max 19
Max rebuking check with -6 penalty = 1d20 base - 0 CHA + 2 Knowledge (religion) - 6 Consecrate: max 16
Cleric level with -3 penalty = 4 (to be unable to affect 8 HD deathless)
Cleric level with -6 penalty = 5

IF JIRIX’S CHA = 12 or 13
# of rebuking attempts per day (minimum 1) = 3 base + 1 CHA
Max rebuking check with -3 penalty = 1d20 base + 1 CHA + 2 Knowledge (religion) - 3 Consecrate: max 20
Max rebuking check with -6 penalty = 1d20 base + 1 CHA + 2 Knowledge (religion) - 6 Consecrate: max 17
Cleric level with -3 penalty = 4 (to be unable to affect 8 HD deathless)
Cleric level with -6 penalty = 5

IF JIRIX’S CHA = 14 or 15
# of rebuking attempts per day (minimum 1) = 3 base + 2 CHA
Max rebuking check with -3 penalty = 1d20 base + 2 CHA + 2 Knowledge (religion) - 3 Consecrate: max 21
Max rebuking check with -6 penalty = 1d20 base + 2 CHA + 2 Knowledge (religion) - 6 Consecrate: max 18
Cleric level with -3 penalty = 4 (to be unable to affect 8 HD deathless)
Cleric level with -6 penalty = 5

IF JIRIX’S CHA = 16 or 17
# of rebuking attempts per day (minimum 1) = 3 base + 3 CHA
Max rebuking check with -3 penalty = 1d20 base + 3 CHA + 2 Knowledge (religion) - 3 Consecrate: max 22
Max rebuking check with -6 penalty = 1d20 base + 3 CHA + 2 Knowledge (religion) - 6 Consecrate: max 19
Cleric level with -3 penalty = 3 (to be unable to affect 8 HD deathless)
Cleric level with -6 penalty = 4

IF JIRIX’S CHA = 18
# of rebuking attempts per day (minimum 1) = 3 base + 4 CHA
Max rebuking check with -3 penalty = 1d20 base + 4 CHA + 2 Knowledge (religion) - 3 Consecrate: max 23
Max rebuking check with -6 penalty = 1d20 base + 4 CHA + 2 Knowledge (religion) - 6 Consecrate: max 20
Cleric level with -3 penalty = 3 (to be unable to affect 8 HD deathless)
Cleric level with -6 penalty = 4

Condensed, Jirix's minimum possible level at the time of the throne room fight, assuming maximum Charisma and minimum Consecration penalty to his rebuking check, was 3. His maximum possible level, assuming minimum Charisma and maximum Consecration penalty, was 7.

That puts his minimum current level at 1, since he was raised twice, and leaves his maximum level unknown. We could narrow this down if we'd ever seen Jirix cast a spell, but I don't believe we have.

He recently cast Sending off-panel to tell Xykon about the phylactery. Unfortunately, since it may have been through a scroll, all that tells us is his minimum Wis.

[Needle]

Actually, commentary in WaXPs states that guy is Jirix.

Now I see where I missed his first res

Then I said nothing, apologies for wasting your time