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    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Ron Miel's Avatar

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    Default Minor plot holes, contradictions, and other nit-picks

    Haley is Ian's only living relative.. However, he also has a sister Ivy.



    Why is Haley surprised to hear of Miko's death. As far as Haley knows, Miko was in the prison, with Nale, when it blew up. And she assumed that Nale was dead. Why didn't she assume the same about Miko?



    Why does Nale think that Elan is the leader of OOTS (panel 3). He knows that Elan follows Roy. in fact that's the root of his hatred of Elan.


    Any others?
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    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Minor plot holes, contradictions, and other nit-picks

    Well put together but the last one with V following elan is a bit of a stretch. Doesn't necessarily mean Elan is the leader, he could just be a more senior member than V. I haven't read the origins book so I don't actually know. So feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

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    Default Re: Minor plot holes, contradictions, and other nit-picks

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Miel View Post
    Haley is Ian's only living relative.. However, he also has a sister Ivy.
    Guess Miron never found out about Ivy. Same kind of research that let him think Haley had a shot at raising 200,000 gp before the next government change-over.
    The Future just ain’t what it used to be.

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    Default Re: Minor plot holes, contradictions, and other nit-picks

    To be fair, at no point does anyone besides Elan claim that Nale is dead. In fact, if she assumed the Linear Guild was gone, her comments regarding recurring villains here and here would make little sense.
    Quote Originally Posted by Reprimand View Post
    Well put together but the last one with V following elan is a bit of a stretch. Doesn't necessarily mean Elan is the leader, he could just be a more senior member than V. I haven't read the origins book so I don't actually know. So feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.
    Uh, V is not mentioned anywhere in the OP nor in those 2 strips. Never mind, I always think of that other strip whenever "Nale thinks Elan is the leader" is discussed.

    But anyway, I'm guessing Nale just meant "his allies." Also, even if he knows Roy is the leader, I think his ego refuses to believe that someone genetically identical to him is a follower and not a leader.
    Last edited by Gift Jeraff; 2011-11-29 at 11:03 PM.
    THE SCRYING EYE AT THE END OF STRIP #698 WAS ZZ'DTRI'S (SOURCE)

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    Default Re: Minor plot holes, contradictions, and other nit-picks

    Nale thinks of Elan as the leader of the Order of the Stick because that serves his ego better than admitting that he's the evil twin of a mere follower. Compare Tarquin's immediate assumption that Elan is the leader of his group.

    Like Crystal, Nale never lets what he knows get in the way of what he wants to believe.

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    Default Re: Minor plot holes, contradictions, and other nit-picks

    Quote Originally Posted by Gift Jeraff View Post
    To be fair, at no point does anyone besides Elan claim that Nale is dead. In fact, if she assumed the Linear Guild was gone, her comments regarding recurring villains here and here would make little sense.Uh, V is not mentioned anywhere in the OP nor in those 2 strips.
    So who is Nale referring to when he talks about needing “a wizard or sorcerer
    … to square off against the elf chick that follows [his] idiot brother Elan?” (emphasis mine)
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    Default Re: Minor plot holes, contradictions, and other nit-picks

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Miel View Post
    Why is Haley surprised to hear of Miko's death. As far as Haley knows, Miko was in the prison, with Nale, when it blew up. And she assumed that Nale was dead. Why didn't she assume the same about Miko?[/URL].
    Because Miko is a major recurring villain, and in fact had proven herself to be the second most dangerous opponent the OOTS had, and could even be argued to be the most dangerous (Xykon never beat the whole team by himself, nor was he interested in taking them out with the precision Miko was)

    Haley is suspicious enough that it seems reasonable to assume she had been considering the possibility of Miko's return ever since Azure City, and the news that, no, she is actually really dead and the OOTS hadn't had to defeat her came as quite the shock.

    To be fair, she also didn't seem "surprised" about Nale, she seemed to have suspicions for him as well, she just likely was expecting an actual ambush, rather than a "Hey here's Thog!" ambush :P
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    Default Re: Minor plot holes, contradictions, and other nit-picks

    Here's a literal plot hole for ya:

    The snarl's rift moving from the Azurite Palace to Xykon's tower with little explanation.

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    Default Re: Minor plot holes, contradictions, and other nit-picks

    Quote Originally Posted by Shhalahr Windrider View Post
    So who is Nale referring to when he talks about needing “a wizard or sorcerer
    … to square off against the elf chick that follows [his] idiot brother Elan?” (emphasis mine)
    Oh, right. I was thinking of this strip.
    THE SCRYING EYE AT THE END OF STRIP #698 WAS ZZ'DTRI'S (SOURCE)

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    Default Re: Minor plot holes, contradictions, and other nit-picks

    The "didn't know about the rebel leader named Ivy" is totally a good explanation.

    Since as far as Haley knew, both Nale and Miko were in the same pile of rubble. If she heard Miko died, she probably assumed Nale and Thog did too, since they were in the same exact prison tower.

    And Nale is an egomaniac who wants to beat his brother. Beat his brother, because his brother beat him. Thinking that Elan is a follower of somebody insults Nale and then NALE THOG SMASH.
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    Default Re: Minor plot holes, contradictions, and other nit-picks

    Quote Originally Posted by Pyron View Post
    Here's a literal plot hole for ya:

    The snarl's rift moving from the Azurite Palace to Xykon's tower with little explanation.
    That would be because the camera rotated :P
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    Thank you, FujinAkari.
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    Default Re: Minor plot holes, contradictions, and other nit-picks

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Miel View Post
    Why is Haley surprised to hear of Miko's death. As far as Haley knows, Miko was in the prison, with Nale, when it blew up. And she assumed that Nale was dead. Why didn't she assume the same about Miko?
    Well, considering that Haley DIDN'T assume Miko was dead until the Oracle told her, assuming the other prisoners died as well when she found out one died from the castle explosion was a reasonable (if perhaps not terribly safe) assumption.

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    Default Re: Minor plot holes, contradictions, and other nit-picks

    Quote Originally Posted by Mutant Sheep View Post
    The "didn't know about the rebel leader named Ivy" is totally a good explanation.
    Did I miss something where Ivy was stated to be a sufficiently high profile rebel leader?

    Even if Ivy herself is known, there can also be a mix-up in the records as to whether or not she is related to Ian. She’s a Bleedingham Starshine, and he’s a Greysky Starshine, after all.
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    Default Re: Minor plot holes, contradictions, and other nit-picks

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Miel View Post
    Why is Haley surprised to hear of Miko's death. As far as Haley knows, Miko was in the prison, with Nale, when it blew up. And she assumed that Nale was dead. Why didn't she assume the same about Miko?
    She didn't seem that surprised... Even if one assumes that someone's dead, it doesn't mean that there will be an utter lack of surprise when it's confirmed.
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    Default Re: Minor plot holes, contradictions, and other nit-picks

    Quote Originally Posted by Mutant Sheep View Post
    Since as far as Haley knew, both Nale and Miko were in the same pile of rubble. If she heard Miko died, she probably assumed Nale and Thog did too, since they were in the same exact prison tower.
    No, because she doesn't remember her conversation with The Oracle.
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    Default Re: Minor plot holes, contradictions, and other nit-picks

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Miel View Post
    No, because she doesn't remember her conversation with The Oracle.
    Roy does. And told her off-panel. Duh.
    Can only thank GitP for being so good for so long.
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    If it helps, think of me as the Agent from Serenity. Just not that good a fighter. Also, I have a mustache.
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    I'm probably hilarious far off, aren't I?
    Quote Originally Posted by Telonius View Post
    This is not... the greatest story Tolkien ever wrote. No... This is just a tribute.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dracon1us View Post
    don't feed the troll...

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    Default Re: Minor plot holes, contradictions, and other nit-picks

    Quote Originally Posted by FujinAkari View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Pyron View Post
    Here's a literal plot hole for ya:

    The snarl's rift moving from the Azurite Palace to Xykon's tower with little explanation.
    That would be because the camera rotated :P
    Not to mention the hole had been expanding rapidly since its destruction it could of been close to reaching Xykon's tower.
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    Default Re: Minor plot holes, contradictions, and other nit-picks

    Miko defeated the entire OOTS while Nale could no longer even beat just Elan. It is entirely reasonable for one to be more surprised that an explosion killed Miko than that it killed Nale. And further, Haley never stated that she thought Nale was definitively dead, merely that the presence of Thog proved that he was definitively alive. Before that moment, he was Schrodinger's Brother. Elan was the one who assumed he was definitely dead.

    Nale being told something is not the same thing as Nale hearing something, much less understanding or internalizing it. Not when it conflicts with his self-image.

    The two images of the rift linked are several months apart, and the rift was still growing during that time.

    And finally, something is not a "plot hole" if one can reasonably come up with a plausible explanation for it using just the information given in the work itself, even if I don't spell out that explanation in the text. Not every reaction that every character has is going to be explained in explicit detail. It's possible to draw your own conclusions based on what you know about them as people rather than assuming that the author made an error of some kind.

    (And yes, I didn't answer the Ivy question intentionally. The story isn't over yet.)
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    Default Re: Minor plot holes, contradictions, and other nit-picks

    Oh, I've got another plot hole. Fyron's son. Did he just get retconned out of existance?

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    Default Re: Minor plot holes, contradictions, and other nit-picks

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    The two images of the rift linked are several months apart, and the rift was still growing during that time.
    So Redcloack was wrong when he estimated it would only grow another hundred feet?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    And finally, something is not a "plot hole" if one can reasonably come up with a plausible explanation for it using just the information given in the work itself, even if I don't spell out that explanation in the text. Not every reaction that every character has is going to be explained in explicit detail. It's possible to draw your own conclusions based on what you know about them as people rather than assuming that the author made an error of some kind.
    And that is exactly what people were doing in this thread.


    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    (And yes, I didn't answer the Ivy question intentionally. The story isn't over yet.)
    Interesting...

    Thank you. Looking forward to more oots.
    Last edited by Tass; 2011-11-30 at 07:36 AM.

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    Default Re: Minor plot holes, contradictions, and other nit-picks

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Miel View Post
    Haley is Ian's only living relative.. However, he also has a sister Ivy.
    Obviously, she's undead.

    Why is Haley surprised to hear of Miko's death. As far as Haley knows, Miko was in the prison, with Nale, when it blew up. And she assumed that Nale was dead. Why didn't she assume the same about Miko?
    Miko is higher level and defeated the entire Order (minus Durkon) all by herself once.

    Why does Nale think that Elan is the leader of OOTS (panel 3). He knows that Elan follows Roy. in fact that's the root of his hatred of Elan.
    You over thinking this. It was just some awkward speech.

    Also, Master Fyron's son anyone?

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    Thumbs up Re: Minor plot holes, contradictions, and other nit-picks

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.Epic View Post
    Obviously, she's undead.
    Or DeathlessSome sort of positive energy spirit, possibly homebrewed or cribbed off another campaign setting!

    Or how about a Construct?
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    Default Re: Minor plot holes, contradictions, and other nit-picks

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    And finally, something is not a "plot hole" if one can reasonably come up with a plausible explanation for it using just the information given in the work itself, even if I don't spell out that explanation in the text. Not every reaction that every character has is going to be explained in explicit detail. It's possible to draw your own conclusions based on what you know about them as people rather than assuming that the author made an error of some kind.
    Dear Mr Giant,

    I wish you to know that I am a great admirer of your work. I think it is the best comic on the internet. Please do not think of this thread as being a negative review of your work.

    When an author spends several years on a series his ideas sometimes change, develop and improve. Years after starting he might get a new idea that he didn't think of at the start. Sometimes the new ideas may contradict the old ones. This is not a mistake, but the author's privilege to change his mind.

    It is sometimes interesting to observe how an author's ideas have changed and evolved over time. Pointing out that there is a contradiction between two strips several years apart does not equal a criticism of your work. Please don't think you have to defend against them, or try to find a convincing explanation for them. All you have to do is say "I changed my mind" and that is good enough.
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    Default Re: Minor plot holes, contradictions, and other nit-picks

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Miel View Post
    It is sometimes interesting to observe how an author's ideas have changed and evolved over time. Pointing out that there is a contradiction between two strips several years apart does not equal a criticism of your work. Please don't think you have to defend against them, or try to find a convincing explanation for them. All you have to do is say "I changed my mind" and that is good enough.
    Are you suggesting that Rich is trying to avoid admitting a plot hole or something? These aren't real plot holes, as numerous explanations (including Rich's) have attested in the thread. He doesn't have to admit a change of mind if the change of mind didn't happen.

    Surely Rich knows that an author's mind might change over the course of writing a work. He's been at this awhile. I'm not sure why you felt a long in depth explanation of all this was necessary?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tass View Post
    So Redcloack was wrong when he estimated it would only grow another hundred feet?
    When Redcloak said that the rift had already grown to be massive. There is only so much you can show in a strip panel.
    Last edited by ThePhantasm; 2011-11-30 at 10:57 AM.
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    Default Re: Minor plot holes, contradictions, and other nit-picks

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.Epic View Post
    Miko is higher level and defeated the entire Order (minus Durkon) all by herself once.
    But that was before she fell. After the fall, she was a lot weaker, and could be defeated by Roy alone. It is reasonable to think she would be killed in an explosion.
    .
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    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: Minor plot holes, contradictions, and other nit-picks

    But in Haley's mind, she's still the tough chick who beat up 5/6 of the Order twice. Even if she knew that Roy single-handedly laid the smackdown on her, she didn't witness it herself and thus still had the biased view that Miko is like a roach.
    THE SCRYING EYE AT THE END OF STRIP #698 WAS ZZ'DTRI'S (SOURCE)

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    Default Re: Minor plot holes, contradictions, and other nit-picks

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Miel View Post
    But that was before she fell. After the fall, she was a lot weaker, and could be defeated by Roy alone. It is reasonable to think she would be killed in an explosion.
    Hit points are not affected by falling as a paladin. Saving throw bonuses are only affected by the loss of the Divine Grace class ability. On the whole, Miko’s ability to survive a large explosion was barely scratched.
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    Default Re: Minor plot holes, contradictions, and other nit-picks

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    The two images of the rift linked are several months apart, and the rift was still growing during that time.
    really? Because the rift information linked are:
    Rift on top of castle ruin, and this is rather close in time with Redcloaks information of the rift not growing much anymore and the rift maybe slightly larger, still on top of castle ruin. Or was there really several months between 545 and 658, and Redcloak was utterly wrong? Or were there several months between 510 and 545?
    In 658, the tendrils of the rift are much closer to Xykons tower than you would expect from previous comics.

    This is imho just minor nitpicking though. We don't see the rift itself in 658, only the tendrils. It falls under artistic license: The tower and the rift are much farther away from each other, but if the real distance were shown, it wouldn't be possible to draw V and O in the tower, and the distance would be much more wasted space, and so on.

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    Default Re: Minor plot holes, contradictions, and other nit-picks

    Indeed, the one plot hole I'm not really convinced there's a solution to was Fyron's son, but that was early in the comic.

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    Default Re: Minor plot holes, contradictions, and other nit-picks

    Quote Originally Posted by Onyavar View Post
    This is imho just minor nitpicking though. We don't see the rift itself in 658, only the tendrils. It falls under artistic license: The tower and the rift are much farther away from each other, but if the real distance were shown, it wouldn't be possible to draw V and O in the tower, and the distance would be much more wasted space, and so on.
    Stick Figure Telephoto Compression, maybe?
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