[D&D 3.5] The Emerald Legion-Mass Producing Ikea Tarrasques

[JeminiZero]

Thats a grey area in the rules actually. Dungeonscape specifies that "a successful hit with a slashing or piercing weapon that has been coated in trollbane will expose the target to the poison". So it would not be unreasonable to think that slashing/piercing immunity would stop said exposure even if the weapon incidentally also did bludgeoning damage.

[ColonelFuster]

RAW states that once something is changed to an undead with a template, it cannot turn into something else- they're at the top of the type pyramid. This "obscure rule" is going to keep coming back to bite you. Any way to wait until the end of the process to breed them with zombies?

[Another_Poet]

*wipes a tear*

Beautiful!

I need to arrange a gladiatorial match between some PC's and one of these...

[JeminiZero]

RAW states that once something is changed to an undead with a template, it cannot turn into something else- they're at the top of the type pyramid. This "obscure rule" is going to keep coming back to bite you. Any way to wait until the end of the process to breed them with zombies?

I don't think it matters. The undead are only used in the first generation for breeding to produce gheden offspring (RAW explicitly states that the offspring of the undead is NOT undead). We do not actually turn any of the 2nd/3rd generation into undead.

[taltamir]

this is beautiful... (emerald legion version)

Question, isn't an effective way to kill the emerald legion is to put them in an anti magic field, followed by lots of water (so they drown)

Question 2, isn't it possible to resist such an army by crafting a bunch of antimagic bracers, then hitting them with anti magic field and giving them the bracers so they are free? they might be evil but they are intelligent. "wear this and you remain free and gain immunity to the few things that could harm you (at the cost of were shapeshifting.)

[JeminiZero]

Question, isn't an effective way to kill the emerald legion is to put them in an anti magic field, followed by lots of water (so they drown)

Possible but not easy. Even without shifting, they can berserk and achieve a Str of 56 and Con of 46. That means they can hold their breaths for 92 rounds (or 9 minutes plus) during which time they can try and smash through whatever is holding them to exit the AMF (which are normally quite small).

Question 2, isn't it possible to resist such an army by crafting a bunch of antimagic bracers, then hitting them with anti magic field and giving them the bracers so they are free? they might be evil but they are intelligent. "wear this and you remain free and gain immunity to the few things that could harm you (at the cost of were shapeshifting.)

Yes. That said, their Masters could easily try to sunder the shackles to regain control. E.g. Within an AMF, Legionnaires can't fly. So they could use another Emerald Legionnaire, and fire off Crystal Shards from a safe distance.

Furthermore, every self-respecting Mind Flayer cabal should school themselves in the Evil Overlord List.

48. I will treat any beast which I control through magic or technology with respect and kindness. Thus if the control is ever broken, it will not immediately come after me for revenge.

[taltamir]

48. I will treat any beast which I control through magic or technology with respect and kindness. Thus if the control is ever broken, it will not immediately come after me for revenge.

Ah, such pure words of wisdom :)
I love the evil overlord list.

[Aharon]

Sorry to bump this thread, but you referred to it in a recent post in the thread asking about the cube.

I think you were dismissing the morningstar trollbane attack a bit to fast. Your whole construction heavily relies on RAW - for example, stacking lycan strains is probably not intended. RAW, it doesn't matter wether the weapon the trollbane was applied to deals damage with its bludgeoning part - although it was probably intended otherwise.

[JeminiZero]

I think you were dismissing the morningstar trollbane attack a bit to fast. Your whole construction heavily relies on RAW - for example, stacking lycan strains is probably not intended.

Intent is highly subjective. One of the biggest sticking point in any RAW vs RAI debate is that we generally have little to judge the original writer's intent beyond the passage he wrote.

RAW, it doesn't matter wether the weapon the trollbane was applied to deals damage with its bludgeoning part - although it was probably intended otherwise.

There is actually some precedence for this. In core, it is stated that for injury poisons (such as Trollbane) "If a creature has sufficient damage reduction to avoid taking any damage from the attack, the poison does not affect it".

In this case the creature has slashing/piercing immunity, so one can apply this rule to the fact that the slashing/piercing portion of the weapon did no damage at all, and hence did not expose the creature to poison.

[taltamir]

is the emerald legion immune to magical disease?

[JeminiZero]

is the emerald legion immune to magical disease?

No. Although immunity to ability damage and drain makes most diseases ineffective.

[BobVosh]

Hmm. On this page there is 2.5 counts of thread necromancy. Weird. (a couple of weeks short of the 3rd count)

[JeminiZero]

Yeah, but I'm still editting and modifying stuff in the first post, as more ideas come along.

[JeminiZero]

How do these guys fare against the 'implacable blade' from the Eberron Explorer's Handbook? I'm assuming the "immune to nonlethal" protects them (presumably you can just get an 'implacable mace' for the slash/pierce bit), but there's probably some 'untyped damage' enchantment to toss on the blade, like 'bane' *shrug*.

The general rule of thumb is that unless an attack specifies that it overcomes regeneration, it doesn't. And unless it overcomes regeneration, it is negated by non-lethal immunity.

Proof against Transmutation is already noted in the "Production" section. I was hoping for other forms of protection that do no rely on equipment that can be sundered/disjoined.

[Aharon]

Still not convinced:

Some weapons deal damage of multiple types. If a weapon is of two types, the damage it deals is not half one type and half another; all of it is both types. Therefore, a creature would have to be immune to both types of damage to ignore any of the damage from such a weapon.

On another note, Epic Binders also have access to Spheres of Annihilation. And for them, it doesn't rely on DM Fiat to get it.
In Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil, there is also a 9th level spell, Annihilation, that creates a Sphere of Annihilation. It's SR:Yes, though, so you still need to make it supernatural.

I looked into Binding and Shadow Magic to find supernatural effects the legion might succumb to, but I didn't find anything except the above sphere. Shadowcasters can get a supernatural Greater Shadow Evocation, though. If there's any evocation of up to 7th level that might affect the legion negatively, they can get it through, too.

Concerning Spell Immunity: the 3.5 FAQ ruled against it, but one could argue that the 20th level Beguiler ability punches through magic immunity.

By the way, the Legendary Artisan ++ thing was errata'd, so no XP-free creation via that way.

With Assume Supernatural Ability, somebody with a high Con could get a Corporeal Instability that isn't trivial for the Legion to save against. As it renders them unable to use slotted items, it also opens up the possibility to kill them via one of the ways equipment normally protects them against.

I'm AFB, so I'm not entirely sure, but don't spellblades only apply if you, not your equipment, are targeted? So a targeted dispel against their protecting equipment would still be possible - preferably chained so I can effect up to 20 items they are wearing/holding.

Another point, concerning half-claygolemhood: The Web Enhancement for Monster Manual 2 seems to say the type changes to construct regardless of wether the save succeeds or not - the save only determines wether the creature gets the construct traits.

If the character succeeds at all the required saves, he or
she takes on the attributes of a half-golem as described
below—except that the character retains his or her
alignment, gains a +4 bonus to his or her Constitution
score, and does not gain construct traits.[...]Upon failing the Will save, the character
has no Constitution score and gains construct traits. [...]The character’s type changes to
construct.

Creatures can have a type without having the traits the type normally conveys, the SRD says "A construct possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry). "
This would be the case here. It doesn't matter for regeneration, as they retain their Con, but it does matter for instant slaying via Slaying Arrow and Mace of Smiting.

Plus, while they are similar, grafts and half-golem limbs aren't the same thing. Grafts are a concept that was introduced later. Half-golem limbs are a weird kind of spell completion items.

I like the campaign ideas, by the way. Might use the legion some time in the future.

[JeminiZero]

On another note, Epic Binders also have access to Spheres of Annihilation. And for them, it doesn't rely on DM Fiat to get it.

The tagline does say "near-invincible". Not completely invincible. As mentioned in the main post I am still looking for ways around these things.

Concerning Spell Immunity: the 3.5 FAQ ruled against it, but one could argue that the 20th level Beguiler ability punches through magic immunity.

By the way, the Legendary Artisan ++ thing was errata'd, so no XP-free creation via that way.

Well you can't have it both ways. Either you are using FAQ/Errata or you aren't.

With Assume Supernatural Ability, somebody with a high Con could get a Corporeal Instability that isn't trivial for the Legion to save against. As it renders them unable to use unslotted items, it also opens up the possibility to kill them via one of the ways equipment normally protects them against.

Actually since polymorph/shapechange explicitly uses the changed creatures physical scores (including constitution), having a high Con score before changing shape doesn't actually help.

Another point, concerning half-claygolemhood: The Web Enhancement for Monster Manual 2 seems to say the type changes to construct regardless of wether the save succeeds or not - the save only determines wether the creature gets the construct traits.

The wording in that portion is sufficiently vague that the Type Changing can be associated either with the failed will save, or with the graft as a whole. However since it is an enhancement (rather than Errata), we can take it that its intended meaning is probably similiar to the original passage in MM2: "The character's type changes to construct once a Will save is failed."

[taltamir]

No. Although immunity to ability damage and drain makes most diseases ineffective.

there was recently a post asking for diseases and someone posted an epic rot disease that kills you in a few rounds.

edit:
here it is http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=147055

Hunefer Rot (Su)

Supernatural disease—slam, Fort save (DC 35), incubation period instantaneous; damage 1d6 temporary Con. Unlike normal diseases, hunefer rot requires a victim to make a successful saving throw every round or take another 1d6 points of temporary Constitution damage. The rot continues until the victim reaches Constitution 0 (and dies) or receives a remove disease spell or similar magic. An afflicted creature that dies shrivels away into sand unless both remove disease and raise dead (or better) are cast on the remains within 2 rounds. If the remains are not so treated, on the third round the dust swirls and forms an 18 HD mummy with the dead foe’s equipment under the hunefer’s command. (The mummy dust epic spell has statistics for an 18 HD mummy.)

I guess i was wrong... they are immune to ability score damage so this only serves to make them more deadly (as they can infect people with this disease)

but there has to be a disease somewhere that just kills you if you don't remove it in X rounds

[the_archduke]

To protect against a Sphere of Annihilation, couldn't the Mindflayer cabal:

1. Attempt to control the sphere through their voidminds with a regular control check?

if not

2. The Spell-to-Power Erudite needs to spam Gate until the sphere is destroyed. Some Emerald Legionnaires might be lost, but Spheres of Annihilation can't be that common.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems...ofAnnihilation

[JaronK]

One nasty way to do this would be to use rapid Flowing Time Genesis to create a hyper plane that your army can breed on. By making it also Timeless you don't need to eat and they don't age (effectively) until you suddenly release the horde.

Also, consider using Lernean Lumis. They're immune to everything except Disintigrate and maybe Spheres of Annihilation, and they only require a single template (so you can just get them to breed with each other). 4HD ECL 10 critters that automatically dual wield.

JaronK

[Godskook]

He already lists genesis as a means of mass-production, and eating is a form of bribery, helping to ensure that the Legion actually like their masters.

[Aharon]

@Bludgeoning/Piercing Trollbane
You didn't reply to this, so I assume you agree?

The tagline does say "near-invincible". Not completely invincible. As mentioned in the main post I am still looking for ways around these things.

Okay. I just wanted to show some other ways to get attacks that are otherwise hard to come by. The entropomancer relies on DM Fiat to get the Sphere of Annihilation, the two ways I mentioned don't, so they might be considered "other" holes in the defenses.

Well you can't have it both ways. Either you are using FAQ/Errata or you aren't.

Firstly, I don't think FAQ and Errata are the same thing. Secondly, I don't know your stance on this topic, so I mentioned both. Just trying to be helpful

Actually since polymorph/shapechange explicitly uses the changed creatures physical scores (including constitution), having a high Con score before changing shape doesn't actually help.

My bad, I actually meant Ability Rip, not Assume Supernatural Ability. Ability Rip is a Spell from Serpent Kingdoms that gives you one supernatural ability of a creature.
The same book also contains Trait Removal, a Sor/Wiz 5 spell with a casting time of 1 hour, Fort negates, SR: Yes, that removes one supernatural or extraordinary ability of a creature.
You could use that in battle with a supernatural limited wish, to take away one of their immunities to make them less resilient against your allies attacks. Perhaps two Trait Removals in a row to remove Magic immunity and Immunity against Level Drain, and then let a heap of lower spell casters blast away with enervations.

@Web Enhancement
Sure, you can interpret it that way. I thought of it as an update, but YMMV.

@the_archduke
A 27th level binder (26th if he took Favored in Guild) can summon Spheres of Annhilation for 27 rounds per day as a supernatural ability as a full-round action. If it is destroyed, he can summon a new one after 5 rounds.

[TheMadLinguist]

It's faster and easier just to get a ton of people who all have knowledge devotion.

[Aharon]

And why would that be helpful?

[JeminiZero]

@Bludgeoning/Piercing Trollbane
You didn't reply to this, so I assume you agree?

Not entirely. But the argument has essentially boiled down to DM fiat on how the rules are intepreted. The same with "how does the Illithid insta-kill brain eating attack interact with the fact a Voidmind's brain has been mostly replaced with Psionic Slime".

My bad, I actually meant Ability Rip, not Assume Supernatural Ability. Ability Rip is a Spell from Serpent Kingdoms that gives you one supernatural ability of a creature.
The same book also contains Trait Removal, a Sor/Wiz 5 spell with a casting time of 1 hour, Fort negates, SR: Yes, that removes one supernatural or extraordinary ability of a creature.
You could use that in battle with a supernatural limited wish, to take away one of their immunities to make them less resilient against your allies attacks. Perhaps two Trait Removals in a row to remove Magic immunity and Immunity against Level Drain, and then let a heap of lower spell casters blast away with enervations.

*facepalm* A level 5 spell that can kill an abomination? From the same book that gave us the Sarrukh? Why am I surprised? (Probably because its surprising how stuff this powerful has not been widely abused so far).

Anyway, I'll add that in to the list of reasons to get steadfast determination and boost Fort Saves.

[Aharon]

Books that pose problems also offer solutions

Serpent Kingdoms has four feats: poison resistance, poison immunity, petrification resistance and petrification immunity - adding a non-gear dependent way to defend against petrification and an absolutely non-debatable way to defend against trollbane. You need to have a racial bonus to saving throws against these effects to take them, though.

[Last Laugh]

there was recently a post asking for diseases and someone posted an epic rot disease that kills you in a few rounds.

edit:
here it is http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=147055


I guess i was wrong... they are immune to ability score damage so this only serves to make them more deadly (as they can infect people with this disease)

but there has to be a disease somewhere that just kills you if you don't remove it in X rounds

I love this post
Hey, I know how to kill them!! Wait, it just makes them stronger... poop

[the_archduke]

The Umbral Blot's disintegration touch forces a fortitude save at a DC of 38. The legionnaire's fortitude save is already +29. With steadfast determination, he doesn't fail on a 1, so all he needs is +8 more to the fortitude save and it can eat an umbral blot for breakfast.

Greater Heroism would add +4 as a morale bonus. It wouldn't be constantly active, but you wouldn't be constantly fighting umbral blots either.

[TheMadLinguist]

Derp, I meant knowledge affiliation.

[Anterean]

I havn´t read through this in its entirety but how about this

Regeneration does not restore hit points lost from starvation, thirst, or suffocation.

So wouldn´t it possible to starve, drown and choke your Ikea Tarrasques ?

[Aharon]

@TML
okay... At least I know where to find Knowledge Devotion and what it does, but that is not the case for Knowledge affiliation. What is it and where can I find it? It wasn't in the Mango Index, or in the Prestige Classes and Feats sections of Crystal Keep.