OOTS #857 - The Discussion Thread

[AlaskaOOTSFan]

You're saying they're optimized for maximum incompetency? Kinda like the adventuring party equivalent to Springtime for Hitler?

Wow.

That's a sentence I never thought I would have ever heard/read.

I mean it's perfectly appropriate question/simile, just never thought I would read something like that.

Nifty.

[Forikroder]

Letting the bad guy escape at the end of the fight is such a basic element of serial storytelling I'm surprised I have to point it out. From Lex Luthor getting away from Superman a thousand times to Vader flying away after the Death Star explodes to supervillains escaping from James Bond in a secret rocket pod, foiling your antagonist while letting them go free to fight another day serves the needs of extended-format storytelling — it says nothing about the competence of the heroes, unless you want to call James Bond, Luke Skywalker, Superman, and the rest of the world's superheroes incompetent. "The heroes have won...but!" is a common and perfectly satisfying way to end a chapter. In fact (to bring this back to D&D), there was at least one article in Dragon listing ways to ensure an antagonist gets away at the end of the adventure, so they can return in a more powerful form at some future dramatic moment.

generally the villains get away in some spectacularly clever fasion or the heros have some explosion to dodge or civilians to rescue

generally the villains dont jsut strut out the backdoor while the heros are too busy looting everything

[Snails]

generally the villains get away in some spectacularly clever fasion or the heros have some explosion to dodge or civilians to rescue

generally the villains dont jsut strut out the backdoor while the heros are too busy looting everything

You are arguing from hindsight, based on information Roy did not have and could not be expected to have.

I would count a phylactery as a spectacularly clever fashion. If it were so obvious that there may be a phylactery, the guy whose personal quest it was, the guy with the Knowledge: Arcana ought to tip off the Fighter who is courageously taking the burden. If it were not obvious, then Roy is off the hook.

Roy had no reason to believe that Redcloak was more than a random lackey, just like the three or four other color-cloaked spellcasting goblins already carved up.

[B. Dandelion]

Successfully cleared out the Dungeon of Durokan.

Granted, although some of the "clearing out" was done via Elan blowing it up, which they actually didn't want to do (even if it probably did turn out to be for the best).

Successfully defeated the Linear Guild and delivered its ringleaders to local authorities.

Granted.

Successfully put an end to the bandit brigade

I've covered this one. There were a few examples of competency displayed, like Haley persuading Samantha's dad their whole setup was unfeasible, and Roy sneaking his way in using the Bag of Tricks -- but it is overall dwarfed by the continual muck-ups. Elan chooses to seduce Samantha rather than escape. Roy chooses to let the rest of his party try to rescue Elan alone. Haley can't control Belkar, who lights the camp on fire and gets them captured. Haley challenges Samantha to a duel and gets curbstomped. Roy loses to the bandit leader. They're all captured and about to be robbed and left to an uncertain fate when Samantha's dad makes the mistake of thinking Durkon is a potential ally. Durkon knocks him out without meaning to, saving the day because the rest of the bandits declare him their leader. In short their success had much much more to do with "luck" than "competency".

Successfully defeated marauding ogres at the behest of Dirt Farmers

Granted. Miko gets some credit here too, but they distinguished themselves well.

Successfully convinced Miko that her presumptions were incorrect (TWICE!)

Which is the prelude to their eventual pushing her over the edge. Don't get me wrong, I've never felt the Order had some kind of obligation to Miko's self-esteem. But I don't think they were overall successful in dealing with her, and save for Durkon they didn't care to be.

Successfully conducted the evacuation operation of a burning inn.

Wait, what? Elan tried. They got one guy out. How the rest were evacuated I don't think was explained, but I presume Miko had a lot to do with it, because we saw her in the burning in, "rescuing the helpless." They failed at this.

Successfully defeated a Young Black Dragon.

I dispute that this is "competence." V had three usable spells. The party didn't bother to try and turn her back into an elf before they went after the Starmetal. V was able to use one of those spells, to a degree that the spell isn't even supposed to work, because of a fluke that the dragon could actually understand V's lizard-speech. V later killed the dragon when she was restored, before it got a chance to do anything to them -- well, she was successful in that, though in light of what happened later, it wasn't necessarily a particularly wise course of action.

Partial credit at most.

Successfully Completed the trials surrounding the Oracle's Valley

Yes, that's granted.

Successfully survived Nale's ambush and, again, delivered the Linear Guild leadership to local authorities.

Which incident are you referring to? In Cliffport, Nale's real goal was to replace Elan, which he did successfully. In Azure City, I would say Elan was doing the ambushing. They did win that round though, fair and square.

Successfully identified Xykon's deception and revealed his position before he could invisibly infiltrate the castle.

Granted. The shell game explanation is one of my favorite bits from Haley, actually.

Successfully conducted months-long resistance efforts against a vastly martially superior foe.

....granted, but they were rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic with that bit. They got some good done, but they were up against mooks and Tsukiko for the most part. They didn't have Xykon or Redcloak's full attention -- and once the Resistance DID have Redcloak's full attention it went pretty poorly for them. Until Celia showed up, they weren't able to unify the Resistance either. Finally, they would have done better by the team if they'd left.

Another partial credit.

Successfully defeated a gargantuine demon.

Granted.

Successfully defeated an ancient black dragon.

Oh God, seriously? V's Soul Splicing counts as a success? V got her butt kicked by the ABD because she'd isolated herself and gotten careless. She killed the ABD by selling her soul to a group of villains and in the process probably doomed the Order's attempt to save the next Gate. Maybe selling her soul was the only way, but it definitely wasn't her victory.

Successfully won a war of attrition against overwhelming odds against a thieves' guild.

Granted.

Successfully defeated the Linear Guild, capturing one member and killing an additional two with no significant losses.

Which incident does this refer to? Vaarsuvius "captured" Yukuk and defeated Zz'dtri, Roy defeated and may have killed Thog. Yukyuk later died at the hands of his old teammates... is that it?

In any case, mostly granted, except for Yukyuk's death.

Successfully explored Girard's Desert and beat all competitors to the presumed location of Girard's Gate.

Dude, Tarquin wanted them to get there before him. The heroes do all the work and the villains snatch their victory away from them.

So yeah, that is off the top of my head. Incompetent is defined as "bad at doing something: lacking the skills, qualities, or ability to do something properly."

I think we should define what is competency rather than what is incompetency, if your list is designed to catalog the former. And again, I'd say competency is "knowing what you want, being able to identify what's needed to get it, and through the deliberate application of your own personal skills achieving that desired result."

[EmperorSarda]

There is no RATIONAL ARGUMENT that V is not an asset in combat" because none of the arguments against V's combat value are rational.

Except no one is making the argument that V. would not be useful. Of course V. would be useful. The argument is whether Roy thinks that a Sending would make a difference.

[/quote]This line of argument assumes that Roy wouldn't ask his party Wizard for a spell list. That is absurd.[/quote]

Given that Roy didn't know that Durkon prepared Speak with Dead and didn't prepare Control Winds, then yes, it is logical to assume that Roy knows as much about V's prepared spells as Durkon's prepared spells: next to nothing. Which is further backed up by the fact that in the same strip as linked to by Control Winds, Roy has to ASK what magic they have that might help. If Roy knew either of their prepared spells, he wouldn't have to ask.

It also assumes that Roy wouldn't try to contact his missing friend and Heavy Artillery because he thinks only a Passwall would bring them together. That is also absurd.

Given that I just proved that Roy does not know V's spell list, even if he knew that V had prepared Passwall he would not think it useful. At V's level it can only make a tunnel 20 feet long.

For all Roy knows, V is in the next room.

Actually for all Roy knows V is outside, dead or another plane.

I appreciate some don't approve of Roy attempting to get V back with the party and it is certainly true that casting time is a big issue; if Roy decides to have other priorities, well that's a choice someone has to make.

Again, you think all the arguments against you is disapproval about trying to get V back. Of course V being with the party would be a good thing. But since Roy has no clue where V is, Sending would be a waste of time. Assuming that Roy thinks V is invisible somewhere, Roy knows V is smart enough to follow the Linear Guild from behind and strike from behind at the right moment.

What is illogical is to to assume that Roy thinks V is just around the corner. I've backed up my arguments with comics. What do you have to back up your statements with?

[B. Dandelion]

Wow.

That's a sentence I never thought I would have ever heard/read.

I mean it's perfectly appropriate question/simile, just never thought I would read something like that.

Nifty.

I'm glad somebody liked it. TBH, once I thought of it I had to make it, because I can't think of the Producers and not get Springtime for Hitler stuck in my head, and I didn't feel I should have to be alone in that....

[JaaSwb]

You are arguing from hindsight, based on information Roy did not have and could not be expected to have.

I would count a phylactery as a spectacularly clever fashion. If it were so obvious that there may be a phylactery, the guy whose personal quest it was, the guy with the Knowledge: Arcana ought to tip off the Fighter who is courageously taking the burden. If it were not obvious, then Roy is off the hook.

Roy had no reason to believe that Redcloak was more than a random lackey, just like the three or four other color-cloaked spellcasting goblins already carved up.

True, but the order never bothered to find out liches have phylacteries. They knew Xykon was a lich, but had no idea what that means. They thought destroying his body was the end of it, despite theoretically having access to the Monster Manual.

[Gift Jeraff]

The comic is full of examples like this. The Order only looks competent when compared to the Linear Guild.

The same Linear Guild who narrowed down the location of Girard's Gate for the Order of the Stick while they were running around like chickens without their heads for 10 months? And who would have narrowed it down even further had Penelope not been carelessly killed by a member of the Order? That one?

[Lord Tyger]

I don't think it's fair to equate competency with victory- defeating a far inferior foe doesn't say a lot about your competency, just your power. Likewise being defeated by a high level foe. I would say by and large the Order showed competence in the Siege of Azure City, despite the fact that they lost- the obvious exception is Roy's decision to tackle Xykon one on one, but keep in mind that A) the last time Roy had directly confronted Xykon, he pretty convincingly manhandled him, and he'd gained a magic weapon against undead since then. Even without a gate to throw him into, he could have reasonably expected to separate Xykon from the dragon and keep him from utterly smashing the wall's defenses and B) He actually managed exactly that.

[FAD!]

I just skimmed through the thread, did someone just mention Hitler?

There's a good time for a new comic, if I ever saw one!

[lio45]

Nope. I just think that a competent commander should keep track of his assets. For all Roy knows, V is in the next room.

No, he's not in the next room... See third panel of #847; Roy looks around screaming V's name.
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0847.html
V's not nearby, so clearly something happened to him, whatever it was. Otherwise, V would be around.




This point is actually the source of the disagreement between you and those who think Sending wouldn't be of any use.

We all agree V is useful in battle, and that it would be nice to have V in the party at the moment.

Unlike you though, I consider that Sending has essentially zero chance of bringing V back in the party in time, because V's clearly not just "in the next room".

[Forikroder]

You are arguing from hindsight, based on information Roy did not have and could not be expected to have.

I would count a phylactery as a spectacularly clever fashion. If it were so obvious that there may be a phylactery, the guy whose personal quest it was, the guy with the Knowledge: Arcana ought to tip off the Fighter who is courageously taking the burden. If it were not obvious, then Roy is off the hook.

Roy had no reason to believe that Redcloak was more than a random lackey, just like the three or four other color-cloaked spellcasting goblins already carved up.

lichs having phylacterys is common knowledge Roy not knowing meant he spent literally no time at all learning about what he was about to fight

also not knowing the significance of the crimson mantle is again completely roys fault for not preparing for there enemy at all in the least

[Peelee]

lichs having phylacterys is common knowledge

Apparently, it's not.

also not knowing the significance of the crimson mantle is again completely roys fault for not preparing for there enemy at all in the least

At least three generations of an entire order of paladins who were aware of the Crimson Mantle didn't know the significance of the Crimson Mantle.

[Forikroder]

Apparently, it's not.

his father certainly knew im sure if Roy had spent any time at all researching what a lich was the info about its phylactery would pop up

At least three generations of an entire order of paladins who were aware of the Crimson Mantle didn't know the significance of the Crimson Mantle.

miko seemed to know

[Peelee]

his father certainly knew im sure if Roy had spent any time at all researching what a lich was the info about its phylactery would pop up

His father, through tons of research, was only able to find out Xykon's name. He only knew Xykon was a lich because [SoD spoiler]

Spoiler

Show

Right-Eye told him

. And liches are clearly not a common occurrence in this world, since apparently no member of the party knew anything about Xykon coming back through phylactery either.

miko seemed to know

She knew the bearer of the Crimson Mantle was a high priest of the Dark One. That's it.

[FujinAkari]

I think we should define what is competency rather than what is incompetency, if your list is designed to catalog the former. And again, I'd say competency is "knowing what you want, being able to identify what's needed to get it, and through the deliberate application of your own personal skills achieving that desired result."

My list isn't. My list is designed to prove that the label of incompetent is an outright fabrication. Incompetent is defined as being unable to do something, and despite misadventures, the Order consistantly accomplishes their goals.

lichs having phylacterys is common knowledge

Attrotiously Untrue. As far as we know, the only three people in the entire world who are aware that Liches have Phylacterys are Redcloak, Xykon, and Soon Kim.

[Emperordaniel]

Atrociously Untrue. As far as we know, the only three people in the entire world who are aware that Liches have Phylacterys are Redcloak, Xykon, and Soon Kim.

Well, Redcloak told the Monster in the Darkness about it way back in book one, and the Order presumably knows about it now as well (due to Eugene telling them about it after the trial)... but I get what you're saying.

[Felixc-91]

Attrotiously Untrue. As far as we know, the only three people in the entire world who are aware that Liches have Phylacterys are Redcloak, Xykon, and Soon Kim.

And Roy's father, the person who told Roy about the Phylactery. Weird thing is, the dad only seems to discover this after his death.

Spoiler

Show

we know this because they discussed Xykon in Origin of the PC's and Roy didn't learn about it till latter.

(Origin Spoiler)
Edit: sorta ninja'd

[Forikroder]

And liches are clearly not a common occurrence in this world, since apparently no member of the party knew anything about Xykon coming back through phylactery either.

i would love to hear your evidence for this

She knew the bearer of the Crimson Mantle was a high priest of the Dark One. That's it.

thats all Roy would ahve needed to know to hunt him down

Attrotiously Untrue. As far as we know, the only three people in the entire world who are aware that Liches have Phylacterys are Redcloak, Xykon, and Soon Kim.

and eugene
and the entire order of the stick
and the order of the scribble
and shojo
and Mr. Scruffy

so pretty much everyone who knows about Xykon knows he has a phylactery

theres no evidence that with a bit of research into Lichs Roy wouldnt ahve learned about the Phylactery

[Emperordaniel]

and eugene
and the entire order of the stick
and the order of the scribble
and shojo
and Mr. Scruffy

As I pointed out, the Order of the Stick only found out about the phylactery after Eugene's ghost told Roy and Haley while he was summoned to Shojo's throne room. Eugene himself only found out when Right-Eye told him during a meeting in Greysky City. (highlight text to view Start of Darkness spoiler)

While it's not implausible to presume that the Order of the Scribble knew as well (Soon knew, at the very least), that point is moot, since the only member of that Order who has a half-decent chance of still being alive is Serini.

...what does Mr. Scruffy have to do with it?

[Forikroder]

As I pointed out, the Order of the Stick only found out about the phylactery after Eugene's ghost told Roy and Haley while he was summoned to Shojo's throne room. Eugene himself only found out when Right-Eye told him during a meeting in Greysky City. (highlight text to view Start of Darkness spoiler]

While it's not implausible to presume that the Order of the Scribble knew as well (Soon knew, at the very least), that point is moot, since the only member of the Order who has a chance of still being alive is Serini.

...what does Mr. Scruffy have to do with it?

im jsut pointing out that its not like Lichs having Phylacterys is some super secret that you have to find some impossible to find sage whos been alive for thousands of years and collect him non-existant compenents for him to do some spell that not even the gods can pull off to learn lichs have phylactery

all it would take is some research from Roy who was too incompetent to learn anything about his opponent but his name

[lio45]

My list isn't. My list is designed to prove that the label of incompetent is an outright fabrication. Incompetent is defined as being unable to do something, and despite misadventures, the Order consistantly accomplishes their goals.

Sorry, can't let that pass.

You're mixing up "competent" and "successful". Although there's generally a correlation between the two, it's entirely possible to be both incompetent and successful at a handful of select things (through luck) or both competent and unsuccessful at a number of things (through bad luck).

As pointed out already, defeating the bandits is a nice example of the former combination... Here's a much better definition IMO:

And again, I'd say competency is "knowing what you want, being able to identify what's needed to get it, and through the deliberate application of your own personal skills achieving that desired result."

To be fair, I think we can say that most of the individual Order members are pretty competent at what they're supposed to do, it's the team synergy that often sucks.

In fact, to get into the details, IMO,

- Roy and Durkon are competent
- Haley's pretty competent, although she can be selfish sometimes (not in the best interest of the team)
- V and Belkar are very competent at their core strengths ("killing things" as Belkar's) but they are often too stubborn to do what they should do as team members
- Elan is pretty much totally incompetent (though he's getting better)


If you had a party of six Roys and Durkons (with varied classes, obviously), then yes, definitely, from what we've seen of these characters, I would not hesitate in labeling that team "competent". On the other hand, the OotS, as it is, isn't a team that is that competent, in spite of their good success rate.

[rewinn]

...
We all agree V is useful in battle, and that it would be nice to have V in the party at the moment.

Unlike you though, I consider that Sending has essentially zero chance of bringing V back in the party in time, because V's clearly not just "in the next room".

First, upthread some people were arguing V was NOT going to be an asset, either because V was emotionally distraught or because V's a blastwizard and for some reason they feel a blaster's not handy in a dungeon fight.

If, instead, we agree that those are absurd arguments then, fine; as I've agreed before, it comes down to whether sending would be effective in recovering or coordinating with a major missing asset.

I'm fine with disagreeing on tactics. If you're not a fan of holing up and recharging your assets, ok but look at the likely outcome. Roy seems to be making the mistake of thinking he can outsmart Nale once again, in ignorance of the fact that he's really fighting Tarquin who's using Nale as a puppet; Roy's record of success against Nale is pretty good so if he weren't so completely mistaken on the facts, Roy's Forget-The-Wizard-Let's-Ambush-Nale strategy might work.

But against Tarquin? Malack balances Durkon; Nale balances Elan; Sabine balances Haley; Tarquin beats both Roy and Belkar; that leaves Mr. Scruffy to handle both Z and Kilkil. Roy had better have a pretty good ambush ready, on the order of dropping a ceiling on Tarquin's head, if he's not going to get them all captured.

Except no one is making the argument that V. would not be useful. ....

Yes, some are. Read upthread.

What is illogical is to to assume that Roy thinks V is just around the corner.

Lucky for us, then, no-one has made that aassumption. Perhaps you should re-read what I actually wrote.

I've backed up my arguments with comics. What do you have to back up your statements with?

A total lack of interest in arguing over your misquoting/mischaracterizing what I and others have written. I mean, really, it's hard to stay awake in an argument over whether someone in a forum argued that a stick-figure wizard would be ineffective in a dungeon.

[Boogastreehouse]

I don't recall ever seeing a character in this comic conveying a look of such utter horror as when V's casting passwall.

Maybe Elan's face and posture here comes close, but V really looks to be on the brink of sanity in this strip.

No, I'd say Elan is the more horrified. V is more accurate described as panicked.

(And isn't it great how we can actually debate this kind of thing with stick figures?)

It is indeed great, but it's not like we have no basis for these characterizations. The parentheses-like eyebrows indicate that a character is disturbed or purturbed in some way. They've been knocked out of their comfort zone. The more eyebrows, the greater the magnitude of the purturbation. Boogastreehouse is on to something when he says V's more horrified than Elan - he's taking his cue from the eyebrows. V has three eyebrow markings, Elan has two. V is more purturbed than Elan.

You, meanwhile, are trying to identify the characters rather than the magnitudes of Elan's and V's respective emotional states. Elan is horrified, V panicked. This cue can be gleaned not from their eyebrows, but from their mouths. Elan's lower lip bends upward in the middle, while V's mouth is hanging as wide open as possible as she shouts her incantations at the top of her voice. Of course, there are contextual cues as well, such as Blackwing - who, being empathically linked with V is in a position to characterize her emotional state with confidence - calling V's actions motivated by panic. But it's there in the art too.

The Giant knows perfectly well what he's doing. The art is minimalistic, true, but there is enough there so that he can show us these cues and we can come up with analyses based on them. And yeah, that's a great thing.

That's my point - I think it really says something about the Giant's mastery of his art style (and I would call it a style) that said basis exists.

I'm pretty sure the extra lines around the eyes are a relatively new addition to the stock set of facial expressions. I haven't seen it used before Elan's horrifying birthday present (though it could be that I'm just overlooking it).

It really does add something powerful, doesn't it? I think that because the characters are so minimal, our minds are free to fill in all sorts of subconscious information.

[rewinn]

.... On the other hand, the OotS, as it is, isn't a team that is that competent, in spite of their good success rate.

I think it was Jack Nicklaus who said that he wasn't all that good, just lucky; and the more he practiced, the luckier he got.

OOTS may have been incompetent in the past, as its members screwed up and acted ineffectively as a team. By the same reasoning, Team Evil was incompetent in the past as Xykon gave up an easy victory over OOTS for the chance of gloating.

OOTS and TE still screw up as individuals and as teams. This is in part because people screw up; that's just part of being human/elf/halfing/dwarf/goblin/undead abomination. It's also in part because OOTS occasionally indulges in comedy.

However OOTS and TE have both conceptualized and carried out plans requiring deep understanding of their own abilities and available assets; Roy's defeat of Thog is a good example and even Elan's successful flight from Nale and Sabine (who under ordinary conditions would be expected to crush him easily) shows excellence in his chosen profession of bard.

[Forikroder]

I think it was Jack Nicklaus who said that he wasn't all that good, just lucky; and the more he practiced, the luckier he got.

OOTS may have been incompetent in the past, as its members screwed up and acted ineffectively as a team. By the same reasoning, Team Evil was incompetent in the past as Xykon gave up an easy victory over OOTS for the chance of gloating.

OOTS and TE still screw up as individuals and as teams. This is in part because people screw up; that's just part of being human/elf/halfing/dwarf/goblin/undead abomination. It's also in part because OOTS occasionally indulges in comedy.

However OOTS and TE have both conceptualized and carried out plans requiring deep understanding of their own abilities and available assets; Roy's defeat of Thog is a good example and even Elan's successful flight from Nale and Sabine (who under ordinary conditions would be expected to crush him easily) shows excellence in his chosen profession of bard.

Team Evil only screwed up really in the dungeon of Dorukon in Azure city they used the best possible strategy they could devise with the information they had, including a very clever scheme to figure out where the gate was

maybe they messed up in the dungeon, but then again maybe they would literally never get that rune disabled so it ends up in a net gain for team evil

[Peelee]

im jsut pointing out that its not like Lichs having Phylacterys is some super secret that you have to find some impossible to find sage whos been alive for thousands of years and collect him non-existant compenents for him to do some spell that not even the gods can pull off to learn lichs have phylactery

all it would take is some research from Roy who was too incompetent to learn anything about his opponent but his name

You're pointing out how common knowledge of Phylactery is by pointing out that the protagonists now know? It apparently IS rare knowledge. Eugene didn't even know until after Redcloak and Xylon talked through it after he died!


Also, as I previously said, There is a huge information blackout on Xykon. Dude flies under the radar. Research yields almost nothing. Saying Roy could have learned this by research is like saying you can become CEO of a Fortune 500 company by going to college. Yeah, it can happen, but your grossly oversimplifying here.

[Forikroder]

You're pointing out how common knowledge of Phylactery is by pointing out that the protagonists now know? It apparently IS rare knowledge. Eugene didn't even know until after Redcloak and Xylon talked through it after he died!


Also, as I previously said, There is a huge information blackout on Xykon. Dude flies under the radar. Research yields almost nothing. Saying Roy could have learned this by research is like saying you can become CEO of a Fortune 500 company by going to college. Yeah, it can happen, but your grossly oversimplifying here.

who said anything about learning something about Xykon?

he jsut has to research Lichs in general

[rgrekejin]

I find it very strange that a person who earlier in the thread tried to paint the Order as incompetent using the following sorts of arguments:

Successfully cleared out the Dungeon of Durokan.

but let the important people escape

Successfully survived Nale's ambush and, again, delivered the Linear Guild leadership to local authorities.

incarcerated there own member and allowed Nale to join them giving him info on the gate directly leading to there current predicament

Successfully conducted months-long resistance efforts against a vastly martially superior foe.

instead of reviving there leader and working on saving the world also didnt actually do anything important aside from rescuing Mr. Scruffy during the resistance

Successfully defeated an ancient black dragon.

at the cost of putting motivating Xykon to continue pursuing the gates and killing all the draketooth's

is willing to call the Battle of Azure City an unqualified Win for Team Evil:

Team Evil only screwed up really in the dungeon of Dorukon in Azure city they used the best possible strategy they could devise with the information they had, including a very clever scheme to figure out where the gate was

I mean, they were one delusional samurai away from having their hash settled permanently by someone with a non-spellcasting class. They basically survived only as the result of dumb luck.

[Peelee]

who said anything about learning something about Xykon?

You did, when you complained that Roy should have known about Redcloak if he had done research.