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    Default Essentials Strikers, Need Help Choosing

    Hey All:

    Our game is underway, and one session in our striker has dropped out. We have a replacement, a friend of mine who was inspired by my thread a week ago, and is interested in playing one of the essentials slayers: hexdblade, scout, slayer, or thief. I'm trying to help him out, but before we get to building, I wanted to ask the boards about the strengths and weknesses of the essentials strikers. Which one as the must utility, which as the most raw striking power (i think thief takes this, but not certain -- never played one). All opinions are welcome!@\

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    Default Re: Essentials Strikers, Need Help Choosing

    I prefer hexblade, because 'i make a melee basic attack' gets old real quick.

    I really don't like most of the post e strikers, except hexblade and half of the berserker.

    Though a Metroid (Pixie vampire) could be fun.

    Caveat: I like the whole berserker, but it is only half striker.
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    Default Re: Essentials Strikers, Need Help Choosing

    The strength of all of them is that they are pretty good even with a low OP skill (in many cases better than the original 4e classes at a low skill level). Of them this is what I would say.

    1. Slayer-easy to use and hard to take down. If you want to go higher OP it will easily with multiattacks and high accuracy charges.

    2. Hexblade-has more power diversity. At high OP they can get really high damage on a single attack but lack ways to effectively nova so that hurts them in that regard.

    3. Thief-Really accurate and mobile. At high OP you can get a decent nova going and charging is easy and effective. Only issue is picking a decent paragon path.

    4. Scout-Also accurate and mobile. Can pack a wallop as well however it takes more feats to do so on the high OP scale. Compared to a scout it mostly is a flavor choice.

    Most utility is the thief in terms of skills. Heck take jack of all trades as your PP and you can have almost every skill trained with excellent checks to boot.

    Most damage would likely go to a high OP slayer. High charging damage combined with a nasty nova sequence (charge+power strike+trip up+rain of blows is an early paragon level nova than can devastate enemies) and they are accurate and high damage.

    The hexblade has the most power diversity but is usually considered the weakest of the bunch overall since it lacks an effective nova (and in high OP that is important). Still it is a fully functional class so if you want power diversity you can still make a good striker using it (or even striker controller if you use the gloom pact).

    On a personal note I really like slayers and thieves since I don't derive my fun from having a few more choices in mechanically different attack powers (mostly in the form of daily powers though slayers/thieves actually have more at will choices and nearly even encounters if they want). This is due to my experience playing other versions of D&D where this is the norm and I really like the idea of using powers to modify my typical attacks. This is why I try to be clear and use the term "power diversity" when describing classes with more various power choices.



    Now those are the essentials strikers. The previous poster mentioned a few classes that share similarities with the essentials striker but are not actually essentials strikers (not that it really matters anyway). If you want to talk about those as well I can.
    Last edited by MeeposFire; 2011-12-09 at 04:09 PM.

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    Default Re: Essentials Strikers, Need Help Choosing

    Quote Originally Posted by MeeposFire View Post
    The strength of all of them is that they are pretty good even with a low OP skill (in many cases better than the original 4e classes at a low skill level). Of them this is what I would say.

    1. Slayer-easy to use and hard to take down. If you want to go higher OP it will easily with multiattacks and high accuracy charges.

    2. Hexblade-has more power diversity. At high OP they can get really high damage on a single attack but lack ways to effectively nova so that hurts them in that regard.

    3. Thief-Really accurate and mobile. At high OP you can get a decent nova going and charging is easy and effective. Only issue is picking a decent paragon path.

    4. Scout-Also accurate and mobile. Can pack a wallop as well however it takes more feats to do so on the high OP scale. Compared to a scout it mostly is a flavor choice.

    Most utility is the thief in terms of skills. Heck take jack of all trades as your PP and you can have almost every skill trained with excellent checks to boot.

    Most damage would likely go to a high OP slayer. High charging damage combined with a nasty nova sequence (charge+power strike+trip up+rain of blows is an early paragon level nova than can devastate enemies) and they are accurate and high damage.

    The hexblade has the most power diversity but is usually considered the weakest of the bunch overall since it lacks an effective nova (and in high OP that is important). Still it is a fully functional class so if you want power diversity you can still make a good striker using it (or even striker controller if you use the gloom pact).

    On a personal note I really like slayers and thieves since I don't derive my fun from having a few more choices in mechanically different attack powers (mostly in the form of daily powers though slayers/thieves actually have more at will choices and nearly even encounters if they want). This is due to my experience playing other versions of D&D where this is the norm and I really like the idea of using powers to modify my typical attacks. This is why I try to be clear and use the term "power diversity" when describing classes with more various power choices.



    Now those are the essentials strikers. The previous poster mentioned a few classes that share similarities with the essentials striker but are not actually essentials strikers (not that it really matters anyway). If you want to talk about those as well I can.
    Thanks, this is what I'm looking for! If you could give input on the non-essentials strikers that would help -- monk keeps coming up in discussion, as does avenger.

    Also, my GM considers the Hunter a striker. This confuses me. Thoughts?

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    Default Re: Essentials Strikers, Need Help Choosing

    Quote Originally Posted by wayfare View Post
    Thanks, this is what I'm looking for! If you could give input on the non-essentials strikers that would help -- monk keeps coming up in discussion, as does avenger.

    Also, my GM considers the Hunter a striker. This confuses me. Thoughts?
    He would be wrong though a hunter can get decent damage (multiclass seeker and you will do nice damage) it can't put enough of a nova together to make an actual striker. A hunter is more of a high damage mostly single target controller. It is easy to forget that high at will damage is not the only aspect of a striker (which is the only part the hunter can fill).

    Rangers-probably the overall most damaging striker by mid heroic onward. It gets great damage from twin strike (its real striker feature as hunters quarry is barely worth mentioning in the long run). It also possess the best nova of all the classes.

    Warlocks-Not as damaging as most it packs a lot of status effects (near controller level in fact some groups use them as controllers) and its curse has awesome feat support. It is often used as part of a hybrid (like paladin|warlock).

    assassins-tricky. They tend towards lowish damage by paragon onward (they do alright in heroic) and are glass cannons (though this can be alleviated a bit by use of their class features and powers). They also tend towards late damage since the class wants you to put their feature on a target over the course of several rounds and it hard later (while during this time your target could be dead before you use it).

    Executioner Assassin-if you want to be an assassin choose this one. This one primarilly uses basic attacks supplemented by a few special at will powers. It has one massive encounter power and uses daily poisons rather than daily powers. It is considered pretty good though not as nasty as some. This class also has decent skills and lots of out of combat utility. In fact you can use your poisons before a fight (by poisoning food and the like) and that can do special attacks on your target and they have utilities that interesting and useful.

    Avenger-double roll is the striker feature which means it is more accurate and more likely to crit than any other class. It also has enough support to get a decent nova and so is one of the better strikers. It is also very tough. One issue is that its feature requires you to not get surrounded by enemies as it only works with a single enemy next to you.

    Barbarian-Does alright damage at will (can be made pretty good if you charge). It also has brutal multiattack encounter powers and the daily rages are nice as well. Barbs are masters of breaking encounters wide open due to rampage on a crit. This is awesome but also unreliable since you generally do not control it. Ragebloods are the best strikers of the group (str primary dex secondary con is not as important as dex) and can explode on an encounter with their class encounter power (charge as a free action after killing somebody).

    Berserker-Can be made about as nasty as a non-rageblood barbarian and might be better for a certain type of flavor (such as an unarmed desert nomad barbarian). The rageblood barbarian is slightly better pound for pound (only due to the charging encounter power).

    Blackguard-Very nice. You don't get a daily at level 1 but you get it eventually at level 5. They can have good damage if they build to charge and can get a decent nova going. They also have great AC and durability (Plate+heavy shield and defender HP) so it makes them among the toughest strikers. Good choice if you want a dark, brutal, and tough guy.

    Monk- Among the most mobile. They can deal decent damage on one target but not great. They also lack a good nova BUT they are among the best at spreading damage around. They also get two powers for every power they choose (one for an attack and another is a move type). Best idea for them is to build to be mobile and take powers that allow them to hit lots of targets while having really high defenses (such as five storms for a close burst 1 and taking feats to give better than defender AC). From a lot of feedback they are considered a lot of fun due to their mobility and ability to spread the pain.

    Rogue-Deals more damage than a warlock but is also very good at controlling (not quite as good as a warlock though). The warlock, ranger and rogue is the trifecta of damage versus control with warlock as high control and relatively low damage and the ranger is higher damage with less control (rogue is in the middle). They can deal high base damage especially using things like riposte strike and can get a nova going with their minor action attacks. Lots of skills and some good utilities keep them versatile.

    Sorcerer-Can be made to deal pretty good damage on one target and can possess a decent nova which is available early. They are more dangerous used as a ranged group destroyer as their striker feature works on area attacks. They can be mostly covered by a genasi wizard (the difference being that the wizard would have better daily powers but the sorc can get a better encounter nova). Sorcs also get some nice defensive utilities that make them tougher than they appear.

    Vampire-Highly thematic (and probably the first time in D&D that they made a balanced and usable vampire). It works well for what it is but you get nearly no class based choices (which is fine once but you are not likely going to be building a bunch of different vampires in the long run). They have some decent daily powers and blood drain is nice as an encounter. In order to get a nova you need to multiclass out (even if the power may not get the vampire bonus damage). It is also harder to optimize since it is a shadow class using implements (both are supported less than their counterparts). The class is tough to kill due to regeneration and can actually make the party last longer (since if they are low in HP and you have more surges than they started with in the day you automatically go to full health and if needed you can suck a surge from your friend which you would choose the friend with the most surges thus sharing the wealth and allowing the group to go farther). vampires also get a nice skill list and their utility pwoers are fantastic out of combat (they can use a gaze that prevents enemies from making opportunity attacks but OOC will charm and give you a bonus to bluffing and diplomacy or turn into a bat to get to a high up place) and many are encounter utilities. Low choices and relatively low damage but lots of utility. In some circles many think of this almost as a solo class and less a striker (heals itself, has controlling powers, can have excellent defenses and can take some heat, and has an official striker feature that makes for decent damage).

    (Honorable mention) Bladesinger-I mention it since it is easier to build this as a striker than a controller. If you build it as Str primary and Dex secondary and multiclass fighter you can be nasty. You take a power swap for rain of blows and take the PP shock trooper which also gives you a 3 attack power. On standard turns your striker feature are your blade spells along with the standard charge and MBA boosters. When you nova youuse your bladesinging power and unleash shocking twister and rain of blows. Your damage that set of turns will be massive. On other turns you will use wizard dialies that don't care much if you hit and then make minor action mbas. It will work as a striker in most groups.
    Last edited by MeeposFire; 2011-12-09 at 09:03 PM.

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    Default Re: Essentials Strikers, Need Help Choosing

    Quote Originally Posted by wayfare View Post
    Also, my GM considers the Hunter a striker. This confuses me. Thoughts?
    Well, the hunter is clearly not a controller, because it has neither the powers nor the abilities to provide decent control. So yeah, by that reasoning, it would be a striker.
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    Default Re: Essentials Strikers, Need Help Choosing

    Thief and Scout are roughly tied for highest single-target damage among the E-classes (though a human Scout can get an extra attack against a different target by taking Throw and Stab) until about level 16, where the Thief takes off due to Kulkor Arms Master since the Scout can't get Dual Attack and the KAM bonus attack in the same turn.

    If you include the Blackguard in E-classes, a hybrid Blackguard/Executioner build for mounted charging (halfling with Fey Beast Tamer is good for this) will also do top tier damage. (At level 6 the one in our party does 3d10 + 2d8 + 1d6 + 15/17 damage on a charge.)

    I can also tell you that monks are incredibly fun to play even though your single-target damage isn't the greatest. You're super mobile and that mobility actually maters because you have to pay attention and move tactically to get the most out of your burst and blast powers and Flurry of Blows. Not to mention that if you go Iron Soul you can pretty effectively play second defender.
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    Default Re: Essentials Strikers, Need Help Choosing

    Whats involved in a defenderish monks -- feats etc? What books would be needed?

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    Default Re: Essentials Strikers, Need Help Choosing

    Quote Originally Posted by wayfare View Post
    Whats involved in a defenderish monks -- feats etc? What books would be needed?
    Mostly PHB3 and Psionic power. You take all the defensive feats you can and take the con based monk build in psionic power. Wh2en you flurry you prevent shifts which makes you sticky. You build mostly the same though by taking AOE powers and getting in the middle of a large group.

    Here is the monk guide if you want to look.

    http://community.wizards.com/go/thre..._Monk_Handbook

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    Default Re: Essentials Strikers, Need Help Choosing

    Would it be entirely out of line to ask for that kind of breakdown for the rest of the classes, possibly in a different thread? That kind of understanding and explanation of them is so much more helpful then anything I've read in the books, and much easier to digest then trying to read through all the guides. I'm sure I'm not the only one that got a much better idea about classes yet played with that.

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    Default Re: Essentials Strikers, Need Help Choosing

    I will do that sometime tonight.

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    Default Re: Essentials Strikers, Need Help Choosing

    Here are the other classes. Do note that I look at this from the perspective of a standard game and gaming group and not the high OP group that believes that only the best is worth using and anything even decent is considered crap.


    Defenders

    Battlemind- effective and deadly though they require several things to work. Firstly you need to give yourself a decent MBA by hook or crook. Then you need to take a immediate action power like lightning rush which is your primary use of power points. Mind spike is there but is not really important. Blurred step is good but be sure to use the update so that it works (this allows you to follow enemies and with the update you can use an opportunity attack if they try to charge away). You are very tough being con based and offensively you can be awesome using brutal barrage.

    Cavalier-Not quite as good as a standard paladin in most ways though it has a few decent parts. It can get an awesome mount but it is difficult to make one that is better than decent. Some like to use their defender mechanic as a way to deal more damage rather than defend. These are the advantages the cavalier possesses from the OP guide. You discourage enemy movement better than other Paladins, You constantly threaten multiple enemies with punishment, by default, You don't have to mark (which is nice since you can have other players push targets next to you and they are subject to your punishment), and You are still a master of mounted combat.

    Knight- This is very good. It can be damaging and controlling. It also gets the awesome fighter power support (utility wise and up to two if using reserve maneuver and the feat that trades one use of power strike). It also does not mark which is good and bad. It can punish more targets since they use opportunity action. Almost as awesome as a straight fighter (which is quite the boast) and is great in nearly any party.

    Fighter- Among the best (if not the best) defender in the game. Can be high damaging (near striker levels), fairly tough, great at ignoring status effects (at least until they run out of utility powers), and are very sticky. They also have so many different types of play style (grabbing/shield/two weapon/two handed/one handed/any weapon at any time/berserker). This is a fan favorite.

    Paladin- Great at marking many targets and actually affecting them. Can really help a leader due to all the healing it can give. Not sticky but its punishment can be nasty (such as weakening violators). Has great AC as well.

    Swordmage- defends by marking one target and going of to another target. Shielding is the best by far at defending. They can use their mark punishment at the same time as many of their encounter powers and have great powers otherwise. They can easily have tremendous defenses and some good utility powers. Assault isn't very good at defending but can be made into a pseudo striker (better as a hybrid though). Ensnarement is bad though and I know of no way of redeeming it.

    Warden-tough and great at making saves. It can get good damage and has some nice powers going in a nature theme. They are effective and are well liked.

    Berserker- Very damaging and can deal excellent damage while defending. They can't defend for long (as they will go striker as soon as they use their powerful primal powers) but while they do they are damaging. What is nice is that once defending isn't needed they can switch to striker. Great as a 5th man.


    As you can see defenders are actually overall really well designed. The fighter is considered the best of the bunch overall tough the rest are good too. The berserker seems better for a 5t man but can do the job well enough that you shouldn't feel bad using it. The cavalier is the weakest that work. The assault swordmage is better at striking than defending in most opinions and ensnarement is the only true failure.

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    Default Re: Essentials Strikers, Need Help Choosing

    Controllers are difficult to judge as they really depend on your tactics, party tactics, and power selection more than anything.

    Druid/protector druid- The controller type druids are versatile. They can be ranged or melee depnding on desire. If you use wildshape you can also be highly damaging even up to striker level damage (though you will not have a striker nova). They have a good range of status effects and are a real boon to the party. Protectors get cantrips, summons, and a special control encounter power instead of wild shape, an extra at will, daily choice, and rituals (do note that protectors can get daily choices, wild shape, and ritual casting though feats).

    Hunter-Nice damage and accuracy with proper building can be a boon to a party. They lack the stronger control effects and large AOE though. Makes a great supplement to your other controller and their nice damage can be a nice addition. Their best control is if you build them to hand out giant attack penalties (using a seeker at will, marking, psychic lock, and a mind iron Xbow). You can make hunters that won't miss except on a one.

    Psion- Has great low level at wills and decent dailies. You use most of your power points on your 1st level powers which you will likely never trade so if you want a variety of powers to use this is not your class. Not as strong as a wizard (but what is?) but still good.

    Invoker- the divine wizard and nearly as good. It has great powers of all types. If you don't want to play a wizard but want similar power and style the invoker is the best bet.

    Seeker-can be made with decent damage. Very similar to the hunter and the two go together often. Between the two I think the Hunter has better at will usage, better encounter power for the most part, and can do more damage. The seeker has the better at will powers (in grappling spirits and the one that gives attack penalties but note that half elf hunters can get the best of both worlds), better if you do miss (which is not often) due to your inevitable arrow, and has access to dailies (not great dailies but you have them).

    Wizard/mage/witch- Among the best encounter, at wills, and definitely the best dailies in the game. Best control over a wide area. Daily powers can make your DM cry.

    Bladesingers- As a controller weak. Their at wills deal mostly damage and weak status effects in melee. As a striker they can be very good. Build them with str/dex focus and take fighter multiclass and the storm trooper PP and you will be a damage force. This is another class that is less a standard controller and more a combo class in this case striker (I think it is called controller only since it lacks any single class feature to be called anything else). It can be effective in a party but don't use it as a primary controller as it lacks the ability to do that in any significant way.

    Binder-Tends towards soft control and is not the strongest in effects. it can control however and it surprised some in the OP trials but it has a MAJOR FLAW. That is anything it can do the original warlock can do and deal more damage. So in other words if you want to play a binder you play as a standard warlock and take the powers for the binder which makes you just as good at controlling but more damaging and you can use the awesome curse support (which can help you control even more). If you want a binder at will play a human warlock and use your human bonus at will to take your favorite power.

    Wizard is best followed by the invoker. Druids are versatile and are the only likely melee controller. Hunters and seekers are more single target and thus unusual as controllers and tend towards more soft control (this leads to some calls of sucking but looking at them and their best OP experts and actual play they work fine they just are different from some expectations). Bladesingers on the other hand are at best secondary controllers that can be made into strikers. Binders are one of the few (if only) true failure in 4e as a class, not because they can't control (they do alright and the tests bore this out on the OP boards though it is mostly soft control) but that the same could be done just as well with more damage with a standard warlock (they can take the same exact powers and binders have no class features that make them better controllers).

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    Default Re: Essentials Strikers, Need Help Choosing

    Sorry for not putting these in one post but I thought it would be easier if I broke them up for you.

    Leaders

    Ardent- Effective and can make great intimidancers. They are versatile and effective but they are masters of none of the basic leader abilities (healing, enabling, buffing, positioning, etc).

    Artificer- They can get more out of items and have some great powers. They are among the best at buffing. Their healing power is among the best since their first uses in the day cost nobody surges and you can have anybody in the party give surges to recharge powers which allows for better party durability over the day. Combine them with a vampire for potentially hilarious results.

    Bard/skald- bards are weak at healing but are strong in every other way. They are masters of positioning enemies and allies (and when they slide friends and they have the right feat that makes for extra attacks). They have tremendous powers that often lead and have awesome control properties. They can also buff effectively and enable (not a well as the warlord but they are 2nd in that regard). They are also fantastic with skills (trained and untrained with bard of all trades) and among the best in skill challenges. Skalds are neat since they can be made to use any ability score as their primary ability score and still be effective.

    Cleric/war priest- The best at healing. They can be good at buffing as well. Not great at enabling though. War priests are tougher but are limited in their encounter powers.

    Rune Priests- complex but interesting. They are among the best buffers (maybe the best though artificers are great too) especially for multiple bonuses of different types at once. They are also neat since most of their bonuses work on themselves as most leaders only effect others. It would behoove anybody playing one to make cards with the bonuses on them to remind your party all the stuff they are getting.

    Sentinel- Weakest at being a leader since it lacks the type of powers that leaders tend to have. They can heal enough though to be your leader. There is only one build that makes them tick at a high level which is thankfully thematic which is to go "wall of fur". By taking your multiclass, themes, and your own critter you can have 3 or more people under your control at a time on the table. This offers a lot of potential and is their signature build. If you want to build a beast master this is what you want.

    Shaman- Heal is great at spreading surgeless healing but not so good at single target healing. They have some special advantages relating to their spirit companion such as control and even some striking. They also can be gerat in skill challenges by speaking to the spirits. They can spread the love around.

    Warlord-best leader class in most minds. They are the best at enabling others to attack. they are also great at moving allies. They can buff effectively as well. They can heal more often than others with a feat though they tend to be weak on the amount healed. In an offensive based game these are your best leader.


    Warlord is the best but all are great leaders. The sentinel is the weakest of the group and is the least like a leader but if made in the right way (wall of fur and similar) even they are valuable in a party.

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    Default Re: Essentials Strikers, Need Help Choosing

    Thank you, that was great. I'm bookmarking this now.

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    Default Re: Essentials Strikers, Need Help Choosing

    Quote Originally Posted by MeeposFire View Post
    (this leads to some calls of sucking but looking at them and their best OP experts and actual play they work fine they just are different from some expectations).
    It is worth mentioning that those "OP trials" were only ever run for the weak classes, not for the strong ones. They prove that the weak classes are playable (which some people were doubting). They do not, even remotely, prove that the weak classes are as good as the strong ones. If you're expecting actual control from a controller, then a binder, bladesinger, or hunter will simply fail to deliver. Whether you call that "sucking" is a matter of opinion, of course.
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    Default Re: Essentials Strikers, Need Help Choosing

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    It is worth mentioning that those "OP trials" were only ever run for the weak classes, not for the strong ones. They prove that the weak classes are playable (which some people were doubting). They do not, even remotely, prove that the weak classes are as good as the strong ones. If you're expecting actual control from a controller, then a binder, bladesinger, or hunter will simply fail to deliver. Whether you call that "sucking" is a matter of opinion, of course.
    It is also worth mentioning that I never said it was as good as any particular class. In fact I said they were effective not necessarily great and in many cases I mention what is actually best at any given thing. The important bit is whether a class can do a job often more than can it do it better than somebody else of the same type since you may want to play a different class for whatever reason. Example being the executioner and the rogue. Flavor wise they can be similar. So why an executioner? Well maybe you want to use poisons or a wide variety of weapons. If that is the case then rogue is not for you so the question is does an executioner do his job. The answer is yes even though if one was to ask what is best they would probably say ranger or rogue.

    I tried to be fair to all the classes.

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    Default Re: Essentials Strikers, Need Help Choosing

    Quote Originally Posted by wayfare View Post
    Whats involved in a defenderish monks -- feats etc? What books would be needed?
    Iron Soul gives you a +1 shield bonus to AC, and the ability to stop shifting with Flurry of Blows.

    Dragon's Tail lets you prone at will, which is amazing for any defender. Fallen Needle gives the enemy you hit -2 against you. There are also plenty of encounter powers that will slide guys around, and once you put them there they can't move away without provoking.

    Unarmored Agility will move you up to Dex + 5 AC, which is Swordmage armor and you can take Iron Parry for another +1 if you want.

    Flail Expertise + Melee Training + an Abduction Ki Focus lets you knock prone with opportunity attacks, so even if they try to walk away without shifting, you can still keep them next to you.

    Pack Outcast (the theme you wanted to take anyway) + Mark of Finding allows you to follow enemies when they shift, so even if you don't get Flurry you can still keep them from shift + charging away.

    Pack Outcast + the Ghostwalker PP gives you concealment against any enemy adjacent to you.
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    Default Re: Essentials Strikers, Need Help Choosing

    Half-Orc Slayer with a Brutal Great Axe.

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    Default Re: Essentials Strikers, Need Help Choosing

    Quote Originally Posted by Felhammer View Post
    Half-Orc Slayer with a Brutal Great Axe.

    Life is fun.
    I prefer the gouge or great spear personally but hey axes are fun too.

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    Default Re: Essentials Strikers, Need Help Choosing

    Thanks for everything, guys! This is all great! I am curious -- how do folks feel about the Monk vs. the Sorcerer as a AoE striker?

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    Default Re: Essentials Strikers, Need Help Choosing

    Monks are melee only for one and I feel the have the stronger control effect in their flurry. They also have at will close bursts and lots of mobility. The monk is more durable in general and would have better defenses.

    Sorcs can do it at range (though you can gish it up in melee but it is more dangerous) and can build a better nova. They also get access to the great arcane feat support (such as master riposte) and can more easily take advantage of energy vulnerabilities. Sorcs will also have better basic attacks in case you have a warlord around or some other class that grants you opportunity attacks. The more you attack the more the sorc comes out ahead. The sorc is more of a glass cannon but if you take the right utilities they can be very good at avoiding damage.

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    Default Re: Essentials Strikers, Need Help Choosing

    Quote Originally Posted by MeeposFire View Post
    Monks are melee only for one and I feel the have the stronger control effect in their flurry. They also have at will close bursts and lots of mobility. The monk is more durable in general and would have better defenses.

    Sorcs can do it at range (though you can gish it up in melee but it is more dangerous) and can build a better nova. They also get access to the great arcane feat support (such as master riposte) and can more easily take advantage of energy vulnerabilities. Sorcs will also have better basic attacks in case you have a warlord around or some other class that grants you opportunity attacks. The more you attack the more the sorc comes out ahead. The sorc is more of a glass cannon but if you take the right utilities they can be very good at avoiding damage.
    In all fairness, Stone Fist Monk has a good MBA.
    Quote Originally Posted by Artanis View Post
    Somebody that pisses off a Warlock is going to go down fast. But with a Warlock, death will be a mercy because the Warlock is a secondary controller, and en route to killing you he'll first cripple you, then blind you, then set you on fire, then steal your girlfriend.
    "There is no overkill, there is only 'open fire' and 'I need to reload.'" - Howard Tayler

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    Default Re: Essentials Strikers, Need Help Choosing

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackfang108 View Post
    In all fairness, Stone Fist Monk has a good MBA.
    Not really.

    1. Monks tend towards a dex 20 stat line which means str at best is 16. So lower accuracy and damage.

    2. It is a riderless attack that deals weak damage and gets no striker feature every time you use it (if you use your striker feature with it you likely missed out using a better power with it). The sorcerer could take a power for MBAs and/or RBAs and get their striker feature every time they use it whether they attack 3 times in a round or not on their turn.

    3. It will be a weapon attack (unless you are a 1/2 elf and take the vampire at will) which means many of your feats won't work with it and since monks often wield weapons with small damage dice the damage is low in general.



    It is probably best to say that stone fist has the best monk MBA intrinsically but that doesn't mean it is strong.

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    Default Re: Essentials Strikers, Need Help Choosing

    Quote Originally Posted by MeeposFire View Post
    Not really.

    1. Monks tend towards a dex 20 stat line which means str at best is 16. So lower accuracy and damage.

    2. It is a riderless attack that deals weak damage and gets no striker feature every time you use it (if you use your striker feature with it you likely missed out using a better power with it). The sorcerer could take a power for MBAs and/or RBAs and get their striker feature every time they use it whether they attack 3 times in a round or not on their turn.

    3. It will be a weapon attack (unless you are a 1/2 elf and take the vampire at will) which means many of your feats won't work with it and since monks often wield weapons with small damage dice the damage is low in general.



    It is probably best to say that stone fist has the best monk MBA intrinsically but that doesn't mean it is strong.
    There is a new feat that helps this problem, Internalize the Basic Kata (Dragon 404). It allows you to use your Dex mod for basic melee attacks, both attack roll and damage roll, if you use unarmed strike. Also you can trigger flurry of blows off an opportunity attack, and since it is an unarmed strike it uses d8s for damage.
    Last edited by KingFlameHawk; 2011-12-13 at 01:14 PM.

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    Default Re: Essentials Strikers, Need Help Choosing

    Quote Originally Posted by KingFlameHawk View Post
    There is a new feat that helps this problem, Internalize the Basic Kata (Dragon 404). It allows you to use your Dex mod for basic melee attacks, both attack roll and damage roll, if you use unarmed strike. Also you can trigger flurry of blows off an opportunity attack, and since it is an unarmed strike it uses d8s for damage.
    Yes you could do that but that is not stone fist specific. Further that is still not a "good" basic attack. This is a striker class and a d8 vanilla mba is not good that is "usable". Flurry of blows is still 1/round so unless you are expecting to miss I would not count on getting flurry on anything but your during the round attacks. The sorcerer will still have the better basic attack if they want to have a basic attack which is important in this conversation debating the two classes.

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    Default Re: Essentials Strikers, Need Help Choosing

    Tend toward is not must have.
    Quote Originally Posted by Artanis View Post
    Somebody that pisses off a Warlock is going to go down fast. But with a Warlock, death will be a mercy because the Warlock is a secondary controller, and en route to killing you he'll first cripple you, then blind you, then set you on fire, then steal your girlfriend.
    "There is no overkill, there is only 'open fire' and 'I need to reload.'" - Howard Tayler

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