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Thread: Worst Prebuilt NPCs
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2012-10-29, 03:21 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Worst Prebuilt NPCs
You tried to drop the topic in a manner that dripped contempt for the opinion for your opponents. Implying they were beneath you. Even though we are right, and you are wrong.
There are no rules for what you say (there's nothing in that link that supports your argument. It says nothing whatsoever about alignment).
Therefore, I ask you to improve your manners.
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2012-10-29, 03:59 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Worst Prebuilt NPCs
Last edited by Arcanist; 2012-10-29 at 04:03 AM.
Larloch, The Shadow King (w/ Ioun Stones) avatar by Iron Penguin
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2012-10-29, 04:09 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Worst Prebuilt NPCs
I agree. Because I am done feeding you.
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2012-10-29, 05:09 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Worst Prebuilt NPCs
OOF! Thought I was done with this thread. Really done.
Venger:Yup, it's nice to know what people thought when they designed the classes. And I like to use that advice when it makes for a better game. I don't see alignment restrictions making for a better game. When I'm a PC, I play the straight and narrow. When I'm the DM, I like to say "sure, why not?".
We are supposed to be having fun after all.
Willpell: Nothing in the rules supports your interpretation, and neither will I as a DM. And really, that's all I have to say. When I PLAY a Warlock, I try to stay Chaotic.
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2012-10-29, 08:13 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Worst Prebuilt NPCs
I see the npc problem as two-fold.
1) Classed npcs are rarely ever worth 1-1 cr increase. Are you telling me that a fighter20 is comparable to a tarrasque or equivalently-cr'ed dragon? However, recalibrating their cr definitely falls into dm-fiat territory, which is outside Wotc's jurisdiction. A warrior9 is cr8? Um...a 9-HD white dragon with the same stats is just cr4...
While we do have non-associated class rules, they tend to favour mostly spell casters. I am embarrassed to say that while I have a lot of criticisms, I have no ready answers.
2) Some races/classes/prcs simply don't synergize with each other. You can't just slap a few classes together and expect them to just work. Elder evils has this bodak ranger/blackguard. A bodak stinks in combat, relying on it death gaze. You go slap on classes meant for melee, and which do nothing to augment its signature ability. The end result is a frankenstein monster that can't do anything properly for its theoretical cr.
I don't think there is any easy answer. The most obvious solution - don't built your character this way, may lead to less room for customisation. You want to focus on tricking a monster's sole strength, it risks becoming a 1-trick pony. Maybe mix and match different monster types to help make up for each other's weaknesses?
Perhaps what we can do is to start reworking some of their stat-blocks? It doesn't have to be over the top - even a simple fighter3/wizard9 becomes much more useful when converted to a fighter1/wizard5/eldritch knight6. Shall we start a new thread for this or do this here?My humble efforts at re-cr'ing MM2
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=215727
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2012-10-29, 08:27 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Worst Prebuilt NPCs
How about we just have an NPC-building contest, and submit all entrants for the use of any DM that cares to use them.?
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2012-10-29, 10:05 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Worst Prebuilt NPCs
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2012-10-29, 12:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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2012-10-29, 12:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Worst Prebuilt NPCs
So... Any more NPCs that don't meet their PrC requirements on time or are otherwise impossible in some way? Those are always fun. Or maybe I should treat "first derailed thread" as some kind of right-of-passage thing.
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2012-10-29, 12:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Worst Prebuilt NPCs
Yes there is Sith.
The Bugsucker, the sample Symbiote in Savage Species, is illegal by both 3.0 AND 3.5. The Stirge is a Beast/Magical Beast, neither type is eligable for the symbiote template.Open the lid and snatch a homebrewed treat from Cookie's Jar
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Originally Posted by DudeWhyAreAllTheNamesTaken(Imgur)
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2012-10-29, 09:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Worst Prebuilt NPCs
I wonder why so many of these NPC's are illegal? . I mean... I could believe that some of the writers were just bad at the rules but the sheer amount of illegal NPC's is starting to stretch that theory. Making a character is not that hard. Plus alot of these were made with the prestige classes (for example) at the forefront of their minds. Its really strange that a lot of the sample NPC's in the books fail to qualify for the PRC's they're supposed to be representing.
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2012-10-29, 09:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Worst Prebuilt NPCs
There are plenty of reasons for why these NPC might have flaws in their build that would otherwise disqualify them. My personal favorite being that the characters were made before the classes were fully complete and were never updated to meet the prerequisites of the class. It's a stretch, but it IS a possibility. Since WoTC often leaps before it looks
Larloch, The Shadow King (w/ Ioun Stones) avatar by Iron Penguin
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2012-10-29, 09:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Worst Prebuilt NPCs
The short answer is Editing.
I'm sure that the sample NPCs were legal at some point in the development of the class. I'm guessing that the class was tweaked before publication and they ran out of time to double check the sample NPC.π = 4
Consider a 5' radius blast: this affects 4 squares which have a circumference of 40' Actually it's worse than that.
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2012-10-29, 09:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Worst Prebuilt NPCs
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2012-10-29, 10:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Worst Prebuilt NPCs
Larloch, The Shadow King (w/ Ioun Stones) avatar by Iron Penguin
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2012-10-29, 11:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Worst Prebuilt NPCs
It's noticable that the Hexblade and Warlock are two classes with strangely low skill points relative to their number of class skills.
Warlock doesn't suffer too much here, simply because Warlock is stat-independent, can afford a reasonable INT without gimping more core abilities too much and are supposed to be mostly human anyway.
Hexblade, on the other hand, needs good physical stats and CHR, so generally has to make INT a lower priority. Having so few skill points and so many useful class skills starts to hurt.
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2012-10-30, 01:37 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Worst Prebuilt NPCs
You know what the funny thing is? This build is not only mechanically unsound, it would be illegal for the character given to take levels in Cavalier. The class prerequisites require a lawful alignment, but the NPC is listed as Chaotic Neutral, which is something I always found odd. At best, this character can no longer take any levels in Cavalier. At worst, it is an illegal character.
"If your heart is fearful throw away fear; if there is terror in it throw away terror. Take your axe in your hand and attack. He who leaves the fight unfinished is not at peace." -The Epic of Gilgamesh
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2012-10-30, 08:00 AM (ISO 8601)
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2012-10-30, 08:13 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Worst Prebuilt NPCs
It did. But the point still stands. The Hexblade has some nice flavour of its own but is underpowered and even a little mechanically dysfunctional. "Failed Duskblade" sums it up reasonably well. "Prototype Duskblade written before we knew what we were doing" sums it up perfectly.
Last edited by Marlowe; 2012-10-30 at 08:15 AM.
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2012-10-30, 09:12 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Worst Prebuilt NPCs
Hexblade was probably intended as a fighter alternative. Since fighters get 2+int mod skill points, hexblade followed suit. Also, because this was so early in the 3.5e development cycle, certain novel features (like ability to cast spells in armour, or heck, even an improved familiar with full bab) might have been deemed too powerful in theory, and so the rest of the abilities weakened to compensate (but turned out to be non-issues in actual gameplay).
My humble efforts at re-cr'ing MM2
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=215727
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2012-10-30, 09:44 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Worst Prebuilt NPCs
Hexblade's designer Mike Mearls actually stated just that^here is the quote (taken from the Hexblade Handbook)
The hexblade suffers a little because he came on the scene relatively early in 3.5's life. As R&D pushes the boundaries of the game, we learn that some things we thought were risky or potentially broken aren't. Other times, we learn things that look fine don't actually work in play. Armored mages fall into the first category. Them seem really powerful, but in the long run they aren't. Spells and magic items allow an unarmored mage to build great defenses. The spell mage armor is as good as medium armor, and its duration allows most mages to keep it active at all times. If you compare the hexblade to the duskblade from PH 2, you can see how the thinking has changed. If you want to boost the hexblade, I'd try the following changes:
Good Fortitude save
Curse ability usable 1 + the hexblade's Cha modifier per day
Curse ability usable as a swift action
Curse ability does not count as used if the target makes his saving throw
Ability to cast in light or medium armor and while carrying a light shield or buckler
At 6th level, the hexblade can cast one hexblade spell per day as a swift action, as long as its original casting time is a standard action or faster. He gains an additional use of this power at levels 8, 11, 14, and 18.
The key to the hexblade is his curse ability, but it's a little un-fun to have it so limited in use. The hexblade also has trouble casting spells and using his melee attacks, so shifting spells to swift actions fits in with the idea of an armored mage. (These are by no means official. They're just off the top of my head changes I'd consider making.)
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2012-10-30, 11:25 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Worst Prebuilt NPCs
The reason why most of the NPCs are illigal bothers me, too. This happens in other P&P rpgs as well. For example The Black Eye, a good known german pen and paper. There exist NPCs with feats they canīt have. The best thing, NPC and feat are written by the same author
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2012-10-30, 01:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Worst Prebuilt NPCs
That RPG is called "The Dark Eye" in english, Seltsamuel, as a black eye in englisch is what a german would call "Blaues Auge".
Thanks for Zefir for the custom avatar.
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2012-10-30, 02:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Worst Prebuilt NPCs
I think it's more meant to be an alternative Paladin than an alternative Fighter. The similarities are too many for me to chalk up to coincidence. Curse and Smite happen at (about) the same levels, Arcane Resistance is just a worse Divine Grace, Mettle pairs up with Divine Health, the familiar pairs up with the special mount (the familiar comes one level sooner, granted, but it's also much less cool out of the box), they get spells at the same rate . . . clear Paladin-analogue, in my mind. The point stands either way, of course, since both Paladins and Fighters get crappy skill points, but hey.
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2012-10-30, 02:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Worst Prebuilt NPCs
I believe (and please forgive me for my reductionism. This was a while ago. I didn't know much.) that when I had to sum up the Hexblade to somebody who'd never heard of it I said "They're exactly like Paladins. Only instead of being self-righteous, dictatorial, and divine they're selfish, sulky, and arcane".
And now I'm playing one.Last edited by Marlowe; 2012-10-30 at 02:33 PM.